The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; Vocational Schools

those loon road loom loom loom loom loom loom goes the point funding for this program has been provided by the station and other public television stations and by grants from exxon corporation allied chemical corporation and the corporation for public broadcasting trainees wondered what it takes to make it you're going to have more than just a job the words you want that's the kind of pitch thats

led by thousands of vocational schools but do they promise more than they deliver tonight vocational schools how not to get ripped off he's beaming it's been good last month the federal trade commission proposed new rules to stop what it called numerous unfair and deceptive practices and begin by vocational schools the rules to take effect a year from now or issued after several years of research public hearings and case histories which revealed widespread fraud and an industry grossing some three billion dollars a year from some two million students

much of the money and all comes from government agencies in grants or loans vocational school organizations are fighting back in court claiming they're being unfairly smeared and that the proposed rules will only raise costs and hurt the students that i don't look at the alleged abuses and vocational schools and educated ftc proposals for cleaning them up jim lehrer is on another assignment charlayne hunter gault in washington robin the vocational schools were talking about in iowa not though that exists within the public school system fifty three proposal they're aimed at the seven thousand or more vocational school that are privately owned even schools that range in enrollment from that and fifty two an average of about two hundred they operate a correspondent or rather than quarterly enrollment they offered through the mail everything from how to be a writer too hotel management training but the more numerous rather than schools provide training and a more

conventional classroom setting and generally combine academic work with practical experience training fall plentiful a major category of trade and technical would include everything from welding to computer programming art of the secretarial training cosmetology which may include beauty treatment barbering hair and complex and care and finally why training which may include mechanical feel of an aviation pilot training or study the airline business robin before we look at what the ftc proposes let's meet a young man who's had an unhappy experience with p as a vocational school in new york city is robert prior high school graduate age twenty six robert what you're not a vocational school the better way life and what attracted you to ps i ever says they want to be advertising out of it a trak you let it make you think well it was

all always stated that our arm high school diploma no previous experience in computer programming to become a programmer no previous experience in the technology department to become a technician so you went to the school last april did you sign up right away the senate the first day i went to the school run and to jeff to pass any kind of an entrance examination yes what kind of in a very simple example in addition to that well a city okla best at this were you really one of the closest in july one of the sizes work well the first day or clients you get it in a test to see where you stand you know in the courts for the chords and the first product course was simple and the second point is you went into it the second day it became ruff ruff ruff i'm going to your classmates like some spanish basque been speaking his

son chris speaking is and if you had experience and i thought technically probably what went wrong for you i was lost one hand when into it and didn't understand or may which was it had previously stated npr average as needed you didn't need any experience when you start having to learn only law watson doctor talk long day in high school monday of my major was business may and that didn't carry you through this course noah did what was the full cost of the program two thousand six hundred and sixty thousand six in did they offer new financial assistance yes what kind of financial assistance they say that it was possible and i caught up with b u t which is a government and drang ended your yes and was that one of the reasons that you signed up that big you could get the financial assistance is that was that one of things that attracted you to the school well i would say no not really it wasn't

well what what made you decide to drop out you're disconnected in the corps reserve no i had spoke to the director and the chairman of the department and the birds three avoid time the complaint i get to do a service after that i'm receiving more to his service what did they say when you decided to drop out mushroom an adult well i had been fighting before long fan i asked him for a refund you tell me no i went to get a refund i sign the paper it was agreed that that was what i would pay her now after the intervention by newark state authorities the school taught tells us that they've agreed to that you should pay to pay back at it you should pay twenty five percent because you took a quarter of the courts do you think it's unfair treatment now do you feel any what happened is your fault and that may be some of that for not

understanding the facts about the school honestly think if our reporter carol buckley spoke extensively to ps i will provide answers but refused to appear on this program in general school maintained that a dead tree get treated robert prior fairly however the new york state education department judged that there were improprieties in violation zinn school policy new york state consumer protection board found the school in this case had violated state law and regulations the board agreed with mr pryor is request for a full refund of tuition what's that now turn to why the federal trade commission got involved in a vocational school been carrying the time it's an attorney with the ftc was the principal architect of the new film killer time to use rubber prior story have a familiar ring to you why was certainly say to what mr pryor has had to say to us as we have heard on a number of occasions and many of the abuses and he's outlined do occur frequently throughout the industry are some of the abuses that we have

found that have given rise to the need for the commission's rural center on advertising which is was very commonplace in this industry usually kept in mind there are a large number of very good vocational school science is not intended to say that all the industries consisting of bad apples but there are good many vocational schools and businesses selling dreams non education and skills they won't we found is that many students when they see advertising a primarily stresses job availability i think that when they graduate they too will be able to get jobs and the evidence shows that their chances of graduating from the chorus are very slight many cases and frequently upon graduations jobs simply aren't there and the advertising primarily that constitutes the unfair and effective practices you refer to in your report well it certainly was one of the major sources of all violations of the federal trade commission if there's another very another very basic kind of activity it was occurring here madison many cases

commissions sales were used cell vocational education and what we found was that many cases as mr harnick hidden he had been given an admission test we found many cases these tests really help have very little to do with your ability to succeed in the corps and there's a sales process commonly refer to as the negative cell which is the ministry where the salesman tries to get the student to prove to the school that is worthy of being enrolled and tripoli the only real criteria used to see where the stage should be amended is whether that's going to make it again keep in mind that this is not true or vocational school there many fine schools but it is a significant problem in this industry would you care if they the proportion or offended well we found for example that many of the very largest correspondence schools that role the vast majority of austin's in this industry are among the schools that are engaging in these tactics are for example you can take the ten largest home study scores correspondence schools in this country and they have been roman probably half a million annually can you just

tell me briefly what the ftc is proposing to do well i think should keep in mind shoreline that the commission has taken final action these are now federal law all they are being appealed to the court the commissions rules there are really versatile and it says that any student decides on roman contract the school should be called distance and rolnick class ultimately graduate school if the school has made claims about the availability of jobs or how much money you can her nephew graduate school to tell you how many of our students graduate how many listings the graduate get jobs so that students can interpret these claims of have an idea what are their chances of success the supporting roles says is that actually sun and roman contract the school have to give you fourteen days to change among and during his fourteen day period your provider with this information so that you have the ability to sit down and in the privacy of your home and evaluate this information and the school tells you won the last day that you can decide to change your mind it's

my hand that's a frequent and finally the last one which is probably the most controversial is that any student drops out of class must be given the rhetoric on what the commissioner said here is that if you attend two percent of the course the school's title to retain a registration they trust to persevere to wish him so that mr pryor space he would be obligated only for that portion of the course that he attended undercurrent refund policies in the industry now if you're a town as she was one class you may be obligated for as much as twenty five percent of the question so the commission is trying to do here is to equate what you pay with what you perceive and we think that it is a very good role i welcome back thank you now to the trade schools that the coin get taller is president of the national association of trade and technical schools known that and that was to tell the article hit a vocational school in maryland which trained medical and dental were fifteen you haven't enrollment of six hundred students is to tell but at the hefty fee doesn't think much in ghana all of

vocational school in operations what's your reaction to do with candidates to fade and i think when he had the initial reactions that we have is because of the action proposed during her taken by the federal trade commission that it's going to take to be an unfair situation concerning the good students that attend our schools a lot and the yacht with the federal trade commission was attempting to do in terms of cooling off in terms of appropriate sort of advertising making proper sort of disclosure we certainly an agreement where we feel that any consumer of education been in a vocational school or be in the public or secondary sector the school should have an opportunity they have this information made available to where we disagree with the federal trade commission is number one there in their proceedings developed at a record of information that it is quite made it represents old practices of the industry that are no longer problem in the industry as it exists today we certainly

feel that there is already in place and an adequate a mechanism for ensuring that the educational consumer in all sectors of postsecondary education will have the opportunity of getting the proper type of information and that's the out what happens with the state regulatory agencies which all schools must be approved cuts the federal our us office of education laughter and all are involved in education policy of this country are involved in an educational setting and then there's a credit this is a voluntary commitment the schools can make to be evaluated by the peer group to determine the effectiveness of their educational process that you think based on your prospective your involvement in the association of will your own school you don't think that the action at the empty field taken as wanted that most of the school's i'm pretty good shape they do share all of the information so you know i think to a large and relapse with the casey yeah the scores are in training in and doing a good job in a

vocational area and i think that the to the degree where the federal trade commission says these displayed near overpowering amount of fraud and abuse in and a seat that is going on we felt so strongly about it that we are taking you to the us courts where where somebody i can evaluate the record isn't as was presented you're feeling you know where x ray i feel very strongly that that we do have a legitimate case i think there's another point i have to make you're surely in fairness you could make every day our industry is made up of small school so most of the time it's syndicated to use these large schools with great moment in the membership of our organization are primarily what we call mom pop sort of organizations into people within their community and have this close there and it was these people who are in our organization are that look at the overall impact of the rule and said hey here's another intrusion of washington into our fears that

the potomac mentality again knowing what's best for all people can come down and affect the lives of our students and in our institutions are part of the problem mr mcdonough chose to draw red says the word database is dated and of these old practices many of which have been corrected now orders are to that well certainly can extend a proceeding was we get evidence for the period of nineteen seventy four through the latter part of nineteen seventy five when the seventy six are so to that extent the date is possibly over a year old but i think that the weaknesses and concerns that we have i wanted very much continued today schools by large are not disclosing prospective students what their graduation rates are and they're not telling students what their chances are obtaining employment after graduation i'll be advertising abuses continue and maybe five her sales tactics continue unabated so i would say that both are evidences is not stale and there's a very very definite need for the action the commission's

taken reservist robert why i obviously don't agree we do think that the evidence is they'll we don't think the abuses that they're innocent a ton each was talking about her are pervasive throughout the industry well i guess we can settle this year's various courts are going to look into these but can i ask you this you mentioned accreditation mr colbert our research shows that only some one thousand seven hundred of the approximately seven thousand private vocational schools operating are accredited by trade organizations like yours salon managers are licensed by state and local governments why are so few of credit accreditation is a voluntary sort of activity that you want to sing that you process to peer review to determine if it's quality and i guess for a consumer's point of it was one supposed to do in front of the school was not accredited i don't think any of friends community concerning the quality or lack of quality just because of

accreditation because the other part of the yard of the process is the state regulation and i can speak to that of maryland because that's my residence day we just gone through it tortures painters making process a developing appropriate rules and regulations for the school's operating in the state of maryland here's where the state officials the state or work for higher education are the schools themselves the students i got together and develop a set of rules that was going to enable the students are now going to be best served by its entire post secondary education community right now split with two intelligent does accreditation make any difference have you found in your investigation a vocational schools as to quality well i think the best way to answer that is to say that our evidence shows that many if not most of the same abuses that we've found industry wide a car with integrated schools and what about mr delbert point about state regulation in the case of maryland for instance controlling

the abuses to speak up well there's certainly other states in which states in which the job of enforcing is being done more effectively than others on the average we do not think that state enforcement today as insufficient to a mega problem and we think that there is a definite need for the commission that i could add one more point concerning the potomac mentality i think at the federal trade commission has moved away from big brother islam what we're trying to do here is to provide consumers with the basic tools they need to protect themselves to let them say here is the information on what german base my decision and whether i protect myself or not at least i have the tools at my disposal to make that decision ok let's let's pursue that point the ftc rules don't take effect until january first nineteen eighty eight and with at least five lawsuits filed already it's uncertain whether they will actually come into force on schedule in the meantime how does a would be student make sure he avoids the pitfalls we've been hearing about rosemary palmer is executive director of the new york state consumer

protection board her board recently received a grant from a gw to develop a way of educating high school students about shopping for a vocational school was for what is your basic advice to students looking for a vocational school was the first thing that students have to do is understand that they're making a major purchase like a car or a house or any other large appliance or service they have to unlearn some of the respect for educators as authority figures and make some hard nosed comparative decisions about various choices when they buy a vocational education that's very hard to do because we trained from our earliest at our first experience was school to respect educators and school as something special so the first thing we say is when memory of buying a service here what should they do well the things that should trouble students or promises

in advertising that don't relate to the quality of education promise is about salaries promises about jobs that are available promises about to glance and money promises that don't relate to what they've unified in that school also they should be wary of a brochure that says one thing and a personal interview an oral interview at which of the things i said and when there are differences between those two sources of information people should watch out to try and find out why but presumably bonafide a school's could make promises which could be born out in practice and others make promises which couldn't be houses didn't know the difference well thomas says it can be born and practice usually a written down because one is proud of them for instance if you have a high place but right that is something that you would to scream from the rooftops if you don't have a high place for it in my privately where there is no evidence to yell at a potential student we place all are graduates it said these many firms and this percentage but let's see that written down now we just discussed accreditation there are a number of other

words that are used in advertising for vocational schools and i wonder from your point of view what significance i have the words authorized accredited approved as nva approved or state licensed eye they any guarantee all quality and no guarantee of quality we personally would like to see a period you work because so we in government are also not looking for extra work an extra regulatory powers but unfortunately they're no guarantee of some of the accrediting agencies some of the worse ones are simply trade associations form to make sure the members make more money they surround the round table like this without credit you a new credit made and then they all accredited and that the student is no way to know which are the good schools and which of the poor schools simply from the bay or indication of accreditation once insured a prospective student make sure contractors were usually well what the the kinds of things a student should find out is and how good the school is and the way you do that is go there looked around trying talk to some students asked to see a list of

the five firms they have hired recent graduate and called the personnel director of that firm and ask if in fact they hired graduates of the school and ask what they're starting salaries are and if you get any information orally from the so called director of admission i which was to attach pointed out may very well be a commission salesperson if you get different information from them than you get from the firm with these graduates allegedly a place else to go off and you should be warned that you may not be dealing with the most reputable enterprise dr callas didn't check anywhere besides employers you may have heard people from the school to find out if he's getting truthful answers or anywhere else you can change what we've been very troubled that government agencies have not accumulate that kind of data so that students can go to a government and asked them all what they owed is is what the school telling the true fans and under this a grant that you refer to we are preparing a shopping guide for the state of new york for only one area of training in that state are processing and we're going to compare private vocational schools

with schools in the public sector with community colleges all sorts of opportunities for training and try and have the students use this guide to compare the different values it was that although that connect you want some of that night when in general do you think of the simpler the tide well in general i think that she's getting good advice to the consumer of any post secondary educational area but it obviously would have to take her ex extreme exception to her characterization of what credit unions having been tremendously involved in the process knowing the tremendous amount of effort to get into a very credible area of abba characterizes a group of people sitting around the table i think is both misleading unfair and unjust how have your major objection to mr rao yeah i think she was making many good poets work app after all whether you're going to go to university or going to go to a vocational school you're making in

a very important judgments relating both large sums of money and time and life direction you're dealing in a very important area and anybody that involves himself in the process it should be a layer of what's going on the track and i'll just pick up on the point that the type of information and hopefully generate enroll confirmation it's not now available one the most difficult things to find out about a vocational school right now is what happens to the graduates do they get jobs and what kind of jobs are they get an awfully that lack of information will be in part really by with the federal trade commission is not what many say that idea and concept with a suit on its the disclosure is important where our objection is to the federal trade commission is the way that they lay out the disclosure statements and very dogmatic exact site which is in a forest school actually make representations that in themselves and mislead the federal trade commission and again i prefer to washington mentality feels of a single piece of

paper with a single form and describe the type of educational opportunities didn't placement in the admittedly great member schools there and while we have no objection to disclosure of all we think it's absolutely essential in portland and we in our consumer information say that a student should have this information we can't abide is the civil war in that supposedly representing every institution us office of education has been working on this for years hasn't come close to it in maryland we went to laborious process hadn't come up with the whole system was getting information and yet you're the federal trade commission can do it worse all on one piece of paper the outcome and i'm matt yeah i do have a comment on that if the schools have been so interested in disclosure i wonder why we as a consumer agency had so much trouble getting any information on place smith and dropout rates we could not vote in the state of new york or any schools to plot with that information when we looked at

their anointed data that they filed with the new york state education department we find by their own figures that they didn't give to students but had a file as a condition of licensing only thirty to thirty five percent placement rate which is shocking because a new york state alone sixty seven million dollars in state for a local finds when into vocational schools try that vocational schools i wanted to blur you're listening now if you know if you heard this discussion before you applauded as gordon gekko character yes does this kind of information especially time in sports talking about is that a known to people like you and your friends no letters no basically utah orally eschew promises as to how many people get jobs and how many people are graduate you don't know the dropout rate in her book but i'm being experienced in

ps i i know in a class of thirty six only five graduated to second base we have to leave it there again mr joseph jarman and i challenged haven't been to a spire and was part that's often a night when bad he's become the peak to peak they're so responsible for the content of this program has been provided by the station and other public television stations and bike ran some cooperation of operation and the corporation for public broadcasting

you'll say well owner move votes