The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. MacNeil: Good evening. Leading the news this Friday, Pres. Bush vetoed a bill to give workers unpaid leave for family emergencies, NASA grounded the space shuttle program following the discovery of a hydrogen leak, Lithuania's parliament decided to freeze its independence declaration. We'll have the details in our News Summary in a moment. Judy Woodruff is in Washington tonight. Judy.

MS. WOODRUFF: After the News Summary, we devote most of the program tonight to an around-the-country perspective on two of the week's major developments. First, Pres. Bush explains [FOCUS - TAXING TIMES?] his turnaround on his "read my lips" pledge not to raise taxes, followed by the views of our analysis team of Gergen & Shields and six newspaper editors. Next, they [FOCUS - IMAGE & IMPACT] turn their attention to the U.S. tour of Nelson Mandela, after Charlayne Hunter-Gault samples some opinions in one community. Finally an update on the fires burning out of control [UPDATE - CALIFORNIA FIRES]. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. MacNeil: Pres. Bush today vetoed the Family and Medical Leave Act. That bill would have required employers to give workers unpaid leave for up to three months a year to care for newborn or adopted children or sick family members. In a written statement, the President said the government should not dictate leave policies. He said businesses should be allowed to develop their own programs. Democrats on Capitol Hill were quick to criticize the President's action.

REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT, Majority Leader: I think that when mothers and fathers and family members in this country have a crisis which requires them to be with an ill child, to be with a sick, elderly parent, that the answer to their question as to whether or not they can do that shouldn't be met with the answer that you're fired. I think that this administration, which has tried to be kinder and gentler, has given the wrong answer to that question.

REP. PAT SCHROEDER, [D] Colorado: If you don't have a government assuring you the right to be both a good employee and a good family member, you're in real trouble, so the American family's been in real trouble and thanks to George Bush today, they will still be in real trouble.

MR. MacNeil: Rep. Schroeder said Congress would try to override the veto, but she thought it unlikely they would get the necessary 2/3 vote in both the House and Senate. Judy.

MS. WOODRUFF: Pres. Bush today defended his decision to abandon his no new taxes pledge. At a White House news conference this morning he said tax increases might be necessary to reduce the nation's $150 billion budget deficit and to revitalize a sluggish economy. Reporters asked if he felt he had betrayed his campaign promise.

PRES. BUSH: I think what I consider it is a necessary step to get stalled budget negotiations moving and I am very encouraged with the approach taken now by Republicans and Democrats in these important discussions that are going on. And look, I knew I'd catch some flack on this decision, just those two words, but I've got to do what I think is right and then I'll ask the people for support.

MS. WOODRUFF: We'll have excerpts from the President's news conference after the News Summary. The budget talks between the administration and the Congress continued today behind closed doors on Capitol Hill. After the meeting, the Democrats' chief negotiator, House Majority Leader Richard Gephardt, said the group had made progress on defense spending and had begun work on domestic programs. He said they hoped to have a completed plan ready before their August recess.

MR. MacNeil: Brush and forest fires continued to burn in six states today. In California, two people have died and more than five hundred homes and other buildings have been destroyed by fires which began on Wednesday. Arson is suspected. The damage is estimated at hundreds of millions of dollars. Lower temperatures and milder winds have helped to control the fires. Officials expect to have it under control by noon tomorrow. In Arizona, officials said about 50 percent of the blaze in the Tonto Nation Forest had been contained. That fire was believed to have been started by lightning. Six firefighters have died. Smaller fires also burned today in Montana, Utah, Colorado, and Texas.

MS. WOODRUFF: NASA announced today that it has suspended flights of its entire space shuttle fleet. A hydrogen leak found on the Shuttle Atlantis prompted the decision. A similar leak grounded the shuttle Columbia last week. NASA engineers are examining the fuel lines between the shuttle's engines and its external tank. William Lenoir, NASA's chief of space flight, said that no shuttle will fly until the problem is fixed, but he said it was not a major setback.

WILLIAM LENOIR, NASA: It does not surprise me that occasionally every now and then we will run into problems like this that appear to come up out of nowhere, require us to scratch our heads and dig in in an engineering sense. I'm absolutely confident that we will understand the problem, fix it, and press on, and then in some other period of time, a year or so, another funny problem will reach up and grab us and we will wrestle it to the ground, and that's the nature of operating a complicated, operational system as we have.

MS. WOODRUFF: NASA officials also said today that they have pinpointed the problem with the $1.5 billion Hubble Space Telescope. They said an error in the grinding and polishing of the telescope's mirrors has made it impossible to focus on images of stars and galaxies. A NASA official told a congressional hearing today that an official investigation has begun into how the error occurred.

MR. MacNeil: Lithuania's parliament today voted to stay in the Soviet Union, at least temporarily. The rebel republic's parliament bowed to Kremlin pressure and agreed to freeze its independence declaration in return for negotiations with Soviet officials. Pres. Vytautas Landsbergis said the moratorium would last 100 days from the start of talks. The move came after ten weeks of economic blockade which has crippled Lithuania's economy and put thousands out of work. In East Germany, officials said today that former leader Eric Honecker is under investigation for murder. They said investigators were looking into the deaths of some 200 people who died trying to escape from East Berlin and East Germany over the past 40 years. A government spokesman said they were looking into Honecker's personal guilt, specifically for "shoot to kill" orders and the mining of borders. Honecker was deposed last November after 18 years in office.

MS. WOODRUFF: Finally in the news, Irving Wallace has died. Wallace was the author of such best selling novels as "The Chapman Report" and "The Prize". He also wrote the screenplay for "West Side Story". A hospital spokesman in Los Angeles said he died of pancreatic cancer. He was 74 years old. That's it for our summary of the day's news. Just ahead on the Newshour, some analysis and editorial perspective on the President's change of heart on taxes and Nelson Mandela's visit to the U.S., and an update on the West Coast fires. FOCUS - TAXING TIMES?

MR. MacNeil: Tonight's Newshour goes around the country in reaction to two big stories of the week. President Bush's reversal on taxes and the Mandela visit. We start with taxes. As we reported President Bush defended his tax reversal at a White House Press conference this morning. Here are some extended excepts beginning with the President's explanation why he abandoned his no new taxes campaign pledge.

PRESIDENT BUSH: I see an enormous deficit. I see a savings and loan problem out there that has to be resolved and like Abraham Lincoln said I will think a new. But I am not violating or getting away from my fundamental conviction on taxes or anything of that nature. Not in the least. But what I have said is on the table and let's see where we go.

REPORTER: Could you clarify what seems to be a fuzzing up of the issue by some Republicans who are trying to say that your statement isn't new. Are you telling the American people that this budget out come is going to be higher taxes?

PRESIDENT BUSH: I am telling the public there is negotiations going on right now and there are no preconditions and everything is on the table and we will see where we come out. When we get an agreement that is supported by Democrats and Republicans alike and if I think that it is a good agreement then I will tell the American people clearly why they need to support it. What is at stake for them in terms of jobs, continued growth in this economy.

REPORTER: Mr. President you mentioned a couple of times that you are getting arrows from all directions. One newspaper headline declared read my lips I lied. This isn't justified, is it fair, do you deserve it?

PRESIDENT BUSH: Well I expected it. I think deserving of it the proof of the pudding will be in the eating and how it comes out. I think the American people recognize the budget is greater than we had predicted and that the Democrats had predicted. The economy has been slower so we will just wait and see how we come out. No I can't say that I didn't expect to hear some campaign words played back to me and it has been fairly intense. But I will tell you I have been more relaxed about more than I thought I would be. I went back in to history and looked at what others had to go through in this job. So it hasn't been as tense, you know, we had some Congressional candidates over there yesterday and they don't want to see tax increases. Some of them I could see saying how are we going to handle this. We don't want to be rude to the President but we feel strongly about it. A couple them spoke up and I could totally empathize with what they were going through. We expected members of Congress who have strong convictions on how to approach this problem to weigh in and we expected editorial comment. We expected some of the slings and arrows but I just have a comforting feeling after two or three days that if I do my job right and that is to facilitate the negotiations and then we can get a bi partisan agreement then I can got to the American people and say look we all had to give or take a little on this but this agreement is going to be good for future generations, it is going to be good for the economy, it is going to be good for jobs then people are going to say look we support the President.

MR. MacNeil: Now some reaction to Mr. Bush's tax reversal. Our regular Friday night analysts David Gergen of U.S. World Report and Mark Shields Syndicated Columnist with the Washington Post are joined by six Newspaper Editors. Ed Baumeister of the Trenton, New Jersey Times. Lee Cullum of the Dallas Times Herald. Clarence Page of the Chicago Tribune. Gerald Warren of the San Diego Union. Cynthia Tucker of the Atlanta Constitution and Sergio Lopez-Miro of the Miami Herald. David Gergen what is your reaction of the way the President and the White House have handled the tax reversal question?

MR. GERGEN: Well Robin having said several times that we need to raise taxes it would be childish to criticize the President for a reversed course. But on the other hand I think that he made a terrible mistake during the campaign to take the pledge that he did. I think that as a result of that he has hurt himself grievously. I think that he is going to pay a price with the voters. he has also hurt his party. I think the real question now having abandoned his pledge can he cat courageously to tackle the budget. I don't think the voters are going to quickly forget how cynically he spoke during the campaign but they will forgive if he cats courageously as President. I think that if he moves forward now he can restore himself.

MR. MacNeil: I would be only be cynical if he believed that he was going to have to reverse it. In other words if he didn't believe what he was saying himself?

MR. GERGEN: Today I must say Robin in watching the Press Conference today there is no one that is more embarrassed at what has happened than George Bush himself. This is a man of enormous integrity and I think he feels uncomfortable in the situation he is in and I think that he realizes that. He knew during the campaign that the chances were very strong that taxes would have to be raised. He said that he held out as long as he could and I think he took credit for holding out this long. I think that he implied in his press conference today that he realized that the forces were likely to push him in this direction.

MR. MacNeil: What is your reaction Mark Shields?

MR. SHIELDS: Well I think that President Bush has made his decision but he certainly has not made his case as to why he has changed his mind and I think we are in to sort of unchartered waters where George Bush is concerned. George Bush is a brilliant politician. In dealing with voters and elected politicians and other politicians on a one to one, one to two, one to three basis he is very effective. He has probably charmed more Congressional Democrats than any Republican President but at the same time as a wholesaler which the Presidency in its final analysis is where you are talking to all the people at the same time and saying the same thing to all the people that is where Bush has shown defects in the past and I think that this is the real test of his leadership whether he can persuade people the decision he has made is the right decision. It is going to require some discomfort, some sacrifice but it is going to be in the greater national interest for us to do that. I think that is still open and it is open to serious doubt at this point.

MR. MacNeil: Do you agree with David that it was a cynical move in the first place, the pledge was a cynical thing?

MR. SHIELDS: I honestly don't know. I think the Republicans in the 1980s got into a form of self conviction, a form of self persuasion that these deficits were like teenage pimples that we are all going to outgrow them in time for the senior prom and have beautiful skin and beautiful dates and the whole thing and no one was going to have to pay for it.

MR. MacNeil: Let's wholesale this bit ourselves and go around the Country starting with you Ed Baumeister how has your paper played the no tax pledge?

MR. BAUMEISTER: Well we endorsed George Bush getting off this rather large dime that he has been on. You remember in 1974 when Michael Dukakis was running for the Governor of Massachusetts his rhetoric was it is a lead pipe cinch guarantee that he wouldn't raise taxes and he got into office and he had to. I think this pledge was bigger in political terms in Washington than it was certainly where we are because we expected sooner or later he would have to with the evidence mounting the way it was.

MR. MacNeil: Cynthia Tucker how has the Atlanta Constitutional played this?

MS. TUCKER: We did not endorse George Bush in large part because of his no tax increase pledge. We believed then it was cynical we believe now it was cynical. We believe that he knew when he was running that taxes were going to have to be raised. So we certainly welcome his changing his mind if indeed that is what has happened. But in 1980 when George Bush was running against Ronald Reagan he called Ronald Reagan's campaign promises on economics voodoo economics and the campaign promises that he ran on, George Bush ran on were not terribly different from those that Ronald Reagan ran on. So it is hard not to view his pledge as a cynical one. Nevertheless we believe very strongly that taxes will have to be raised. So we are glad that it seems that he is finally doing the right thing.

MR. MacNeil: What about the Chicago Tribune Clarence Page ?

MR. PAGE: Well the Tribune Editorially supported Bush's move, felt that it was inevitable and I think the attitude here was his no new taxes pledge was a cynical one from the stand point of realistic for his campaign but unrealistic for the good of the Country. And in a way here you have to look at street reaction too. I think that folks in the midwest don't seem to be too surprised that Bush is going back on that pledge. Opinion polls indicate as far as I know that most people didn't believe it in the first place. At the same time had he said anything different folks would have wondered about his sanity especially in the wake of Walter Mondale's defeat in 1984. So it has become sort of expected that candidates will promise no new taxes. Now it has become something of a joke for many people saying things like George Bush has new lips or he really didn't mean no new taxes he meant mo new taxes. That is what we are going to get. This is only the first shoe dropping. The second shoe is going to be just how much of a new tax are we going to get and I think that it where you are going to see some real negative public reaction. Right now there is a sense that this was going to happen and now it has finally happened.

MR. MacNeil: How does the San Diego Union see it Jerry Warren?

MR. WARREN: We reluctantly endorse his change of view but only Robin if he can hold the Congress to the agreement to hold spending and to come up with budget reform. On the matter of campaign rhetoric and whether or not it is cynical I think that it is very simplistic to continue to hold a candidate to his rhetoric in the campaign. American people choose their Presidents because they think that they can best believe them through unchartered waters and when situations change I think the American people want their Presidents to be flexible enough to change to the most advanced techniques possible and the best information possible. So if he stayed with his pledge he would probably not have been doing his job. So I think the American people in the end will support him and agree that he is showing leadership.

MR. MacNeil: Sergio Lopez-Miro, Miami Herald how do you see it?

MR. LOPEZ-MIRO: I agree with Gerald. I think that judging whether President Bush was cynical about this or not is really second guessing and I think that flexibility is a virtue in politics. I guess that some cynics would say that embarrassment is the cost of doing business which is what the President said today that he felt. Nevertheless we welcomed it as an institution. We felt that it was long overdue. It is better late than ever. The question now is to see whether other Republican Congressmen who embraced Mr. Bush's pledge as well as Democrats in the forth coming elections in the fall will have enough sense to back away from that expired pledge.

MR. MacNeil: Lee Cullum Dallas Times Herald how do you see it?

MS. CULLUM: Robin we are vastly relieved that the President has decided to come to terms with the budget deficit. We think that he is doing the right thing and this is something his predecessor, Ronald Reagan, was not able to do. I remember Reagan saying once. In fact it was after the crash of 1987 saying that everybody knows that when you raise taxes revenues fall. It was an incredible statement. It may be true in the long run but for the immediate future we really do need more revenue. We are glad that Mr. Bush sees it that way.

MR. MacNeil: David Gergen is there any connection between whether voters believed that the President was cynical and in effect was lying in the first place or whether they thought he was sincere in this in the kind of punishment or reward they will reek on Republican Candidates. A lot of Republican candidates are very angry because they think the President has removed their only distinctive issue.

MR. GERGEN: Robin my expectation is whatever the short coming reaction is to the President's statements is if voters are persuaded, as Mark says, by the final package as being done exactly in the right way then the Republican candidates will not pay a price for it. I think their issue has obviously been cut off. They have been blunted in that. I do think that the Democrats have to take care here as well because there is a tendency on the part of the Democrats to salivate about new taxes and I think that a lot of Republican Candidates while they will not be able to say I can pledge no new taxes can say with some legitimacy we are the party that is going to try to hold down taxes at all costs and we will raise them only if necessary while the other party seems anxious and often pushes for higher taxes and higher spending. I think that issue legitimate. I think that if the economy continues to run well that will also help Republican candidates.

MR. MacNeil: Is this going to be as negative Mark for the Republican candidates as some of them think?

MR. SHIELDS: Well I think they know of where they speak. The only criticism in defense of the Democrats who had been accused of being disarray that is just out of the beltway somewhere is that they have been remarkably restrained in their comments, their reaction, in their negotiations. Frankly it was the Democrats strong position that they would not endorse any new taxes until the President did move in combination with the NATO factors and the deficit figures that forced the President to move. But I think that as far as the Campaign of 1990 is concerned Republicans are scared. They are scared on the very thing that David touched on. They had three great themes that led to Republican domination of our politics on the Presidential level, a lock on the White House this has been called. They had national defense. They were the party of strength. The Democrats were a party of pacifists, isolationists since the fall of Saigon. Second traditional values where the Democrats seem to be for the nuns against the metric system or every off ball group in the World and while the Republicans endorsed elimination of abortion, outlawing of abortion a constitutional amendment. Since the Supreme Court decision they have been on the defensive about that. The one over all arching team that held all those constituencies together from moral majoritarian to libertarians to Republican precinct men and women was the anti tax position. That is gone. All of a sudden Republicans feel naked.

MR. MacNeil: Jerry Warren in San Diego are the Republican candidates in your part of the country really going to suffer for this?

MR. WARREN: No I don't think they will suffer. I think they will hurt a little bit but I don't think they will suffer. If the Republicans can not get on issues that are real issues and issues important to the constituents and get off the blind adherence to no new taxes then perhaps they shouldn't do to well. I think there are plenty of issues out there to talk about. Just to hide behind the tax and spend rhetoric I think is a mistake.

MR. MacNeil: Lee Cullum in Dallas how do you view that?

MS. CULLUM: No I think Republican candidates will suffer at all Robin. We have Clayton Williams running for Governor against Ann Richards and he is showing very well in the polls. Some say he is 20 points ahead some say it is 12 but he is running well. Phil Gramm should win reelection with no trouble at all. I see no problem for Republicans in Texas.

MR. MacNeil: How about in Florida Mr. Lopez-Miro?

MR. LOPEZ-MIRO: Well I don't see the Republicans suffering more than they have traditionally this being a Democratic State. In this section of Florida where George Bush is so popular despite the fact that the Cuban American population which predominately supports him is tremendously conservative on tax issues. I think they will rally behind the President and the traditional conservative politicians.

MR. MacNeil: Ed Baumeister?

MR. BAUMEISTER: New Jersey has already raised taxes. We elected a Governor last year who boldly, at least loudly, raised taxes 2,8 billion dollars. He taxed everything. Toilet tissue formerly free is now taxed. A week ago we were saying in the news room this would put him in the Presidential sweepstakes. On Tuesday of this week a national magazine called me asking how soon could I have 8000 words ready on this new phenomenon. I think what happened here he is doubling the taxes on the rich. See how that goes down. I think that may be an indicator of tax raising.

MR. LEHRER: Cynthia Tucker are the Republicans in your part of the Country terrified in loosing this one distinctive thing against the Democrats?

MS. TUCKER: Well Georgia has never been a very strong territory for Republicans in local races any way. This state is just beginning to develop a very serious Republican Party. It is interesting to note that the leading Republican candidate for Governor here has declined to take what had been President Bush's campaign stance. He was asked in a gubernatorial forum just last Sunday night whether he would state emphatically he would absolutely not raise taxes and he declined to say that. So it is interesting to me that some Republicans in this state had taken a more realistic look and decided that they would not follow President Bush's hard line on that.

MR. MacNeil: Okay well thank you all. Don't go away we are going to move on. Judy. FOCUS - IMAGE & IMPACT

MS. WOODRUFF: We turn next to Nelson Mandela and the impact of his current tour of the United States. We will hear again from Gergen & Shields and our editors, but first this report from Charlayne Hunter-Gault.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: From the first day Nelson Mandela set foot on American soil, the mood and the message of those who greeted him was essentially the same. In New York --

MAYOR DINKINS: Mr. Nelson Mandela is like a modern day Moses, leading his people out from slavery.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: In Boston -- [People Singing] -- in Washington -- cities across America rolled out their version of the red carpet to welcome Mandela. But some places never got on the schedule at all. Take Tampa, Florida, for instance, a city of 300,000. This stadium, which will host the Super Bowl in January, remained empty for the entire visit, so how did people in Tampa, who could only get as close to their television sets or their radios, react to the Mandela visit? Watson Haynes, a local anti- drug executive, was disappointed that Mandela didn't come to Tampa, but --

WATSON HAYNES, Community Activist: Where he didn't come, what you hear is over coffee, receptions, you hear people in church talking about. You know, when the preacher can get up in the pulpit and talking proudly of Mandela, then you know the reception's got to be good. If Mandela had just gone to Canada and went back to South Africa, it would never diminish my pride in Mandela and what he stood for and the fact that this man has come out and has stood on his own two feet. He's not afraid of anybody, he's not bought by anybody, he's not bossed by anybody, and he is proud of that fact, and I'm proud to see a black man be able to continue to do that in America.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: What do you think he's accomplished since he's been here?

MR. HAYNES: I believe what he's done is opened up the eyes of America to see what really went on, No. 1, and No. 2, to recognize what we have been doing as a country in terms of supporting some of those conditions in South Africa, and now for us to open our eyes and recognize that those economic sanctions must stay there until we deal with the whole issue of the needs of the South African people.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Across town, in the Ebor City section, opinions were more varied in the Tropicana, a popular gathering spot for a broad cross-section of Tampans. Roland Manteiga, publisher of La Gaceta, a Spanish, Italian, and English weekly newspaper, was presiding over his daily breakfast group.

ROLAND MANTEIGA, Publisher, La Gaceta: I don't think a lot of people here were excited because he didn't come here. I'm talking about mostly people not that involved here, unless you're black.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: But you, yourself.

MR. MANTEIGA: Yes, I found it very interesting. I was impressed with the man.

ROBERT GILDER, NAACP: Many people, particularly blacks and many whites, have called me when they found out that I was in Washington, have called me and wanted to know what was it like to see Mandela in person.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: How did you happen to go to Washington?

MR. GILDER: Well, I was invited by one of the Congressmen to go up, to sit in the galleries and hear Mandela speak, and it, indeed, was a thrill of my life to hear a man espouse love, an old man with young ideas.

FR. JOHN GLAROS, Greek Orthodox Church: And I was very much impressed with the man, particularly knowing the number of years that he's been in prison, the statements that he has made have shown his respect and love for Castro and Gadhafi, and have hurt to a certain extent, because we here primarily, the majority of the people of America look towards the three leaders as not being leaders to help the overall rural situation.

MAXX HUDSON, Real Estate Executive: I think the thing that the visit meant to me more than anything was that overlaying everything that you hear about the United States of America, I think that basically on the part of many people, there's a keen interest in what's going on in the world and where injustice is being done, hearing from the people who were involved in the process, of righting the wrongs and things such as that.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Did you have any particular concerns as a businessman about his attitude about the economy in South Africa?

MR. HUDSON: I'm just leaving that open right now. You know, somebody that's had to go through what Nelson Mandela's had to go through in his life tends to I think sometimes to get a little further in an extreme than I necessarily like to deal with, and of course, sooner or later, we all have to mellow to the realities of what's happening in the world that we're living in, and so I guess I'm sort of reserved on that at this point in time.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Such reserve extended to Tampans who joined other Floridians, especially those in Miami, in condemning Mandela's support of Fidel Castro. Howard Troxler, political columnist for the Tampa Tribune.

HOWARD TROXLER, The Tampa Tribune: The anti-Castro sentiment is very, very strong. And anybody who's involved in Florida politics knows that you can't even suggest the sun shines in Havana once a year without just taking a licking in the press. You can't suggest you like Cuban cigars. You can't suggest that there's anything at all about Cuba that's tolerable as long as Castro is in power. Mandela has come in and in the minds of the Latin voters and the Latin community of Florida directly repudiated that and said, I will not disavow, I will not disassociate myself from the thing they hate the most, and so I think that has been a great neutralizer, like a great antacid tablet dropped into the state that has just shut down a lot of the enthusiasm that might have been there otherwise. [TEACHER TEACHING CLASS]

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: At this summer school class at Monroe Junior High School, a microcosm of the city.

DAWN HAYES, Teacher: My friends in the community, it's a lot different I think because he's black and I have some people that I deal with that are very prejudiced and it's been a lot different in hearing some of the things that they've said.

LORETTA RICHARDSON, 7th Grade: I have a couple of friends that came over the other night and we sat down, I have a tape of Mandela, when they let him free out of jail, and we sat him down and we sat there and talked for three hours straight about it, about how much it means to us and how much we are glad he's out of jail and all that.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Did his coming to the United States make any difference to you?

LARRY FOWLER, 9th Grade: Not really. It didn't make a difference to me.

VICTOR RIVERA, 7th Grade: I think it would have been better if he'd have came here because that would have let us know more about him.

KIM SMALL, 9th Grade: He's like a idol to me if I, you know, have a female idol and a male idol, and if he was to die and I could take his place, I would.

MS. WOODRUFF: Still with us for more reaction to the Mandela visit are David Gergen and Mark Shields, plus our six newspaper editors. Let's begin by going to some of the cities where Nelson Mandela visit. Clarence Page in Chicago, what are people saying there in the wake of his appearances, and what was your paper saying?

CLARENCE PAGE, Editorial Board Member, Chicago Tribune: Well, he didn't come to Chicago, unfortunately, but he did come to Detroit. That was his one Midwestern visit just yesterday.

MS. WOODRUFF: Sorry, that was my error. Forgive me.

MR. PAGE: Quite all right. Actually, it's funny you should mention that because the fact that Mandela did not come to Chicago was an item of major news and major speculation here because this is a center of anti-apartheid activism, and it's also Jesse Jackson's former home turf before he moved to Washington, and it is his current, still the headquarters of Operation PUSH, and there were people speculating over whether or not Mandela did not want to step onto Jesse Jackson's turf, and this sort of thing. But getting back to Mandela, himself, certainly as you saw in Detroit and other cities, this man has touched something in the heart of Americans, and I think he's helped to in some way answer our hunger for heroes these days in a time after Donald Trump and so many other fallen heroes of the '80s and all, he has been compared to Moses, Ghandi, King, all of whom are dead heroes, he is alive, and he represents a lot of sacrifice, a lot of intelligence, and charisma. The fact that he is alive and dealing with very complex problems right now I think is what led to the shock some people had over his views in regard to the use of force and his alliances with Gadhafi, Arafat and Castro. Anyone who understands the history of the ANC and the complexities of the South African politics and all would understand those relationships. So in a way, I think a lot of Americans got jerked to earth and had to take a second look and not take this man for granted, but overall, the reception and support for him has been very positive.

MS. WOODRUFF: Well, thanks for rescuing me, Clarence Page. Of course, he didn't go to Chicago. What about Miami, Sergio Lopez-Miro? There was some controversy when he was there.

SERGIO LOPEZ-MIRO, Editorial Board Member, Miami Herald: Controversy is an understatement. Unfortunately, Miami was the only city in the country to welcome or to receive Mr. Mandela with such a chilling welcome, and you have to understand the nature of Miami in order to understand that fact, because Miami is unique as an American city, it's home to hundreds of thousands of Cuban exiles who have suffered tremendously as a result of Fidel Castro, and of the system he has imposed on Cuba, and everything else pales for this community unfortunately compared to that fact, and Cubans just simply could not understand, could not conceive of a moral giant like Nelson Mandela spending 27 years in a South African prison and then stating that Fidel Castro was an inspiration to him and an example of human rights and liberty. So I think it's an understandable reaction, although nevertheless regrettable, but I think if Lech Walesa had come to an American city with a large Chilean population, for example, and he had said that during his time in jail he had received solidarity and shows of support from Gen. Pinochet in Chile, you would have had the same kind of reaction.

MS. WOODRUFF: Did you get any of that in Atlanta, Cynthia Tucker?

CYNTHIA TUCKER, Assoc. Editorial Page Editor, Atlanta Constitution: Absolutely not, certainly not from the crowds of people, huge throngs of people who turned out, who lined the streets just to try to get an opportunity to get a glimpse of the man. Of course, we did have two or three members of the Ku Klux Klan to show up at a rally at a stadium here with an ANC flag and threaten to burn it, but there were only two or three of them, they didn't, in fact, set fire to the flag. So the overwhelming response to Nelson Mandela in this city that is the home of Martin Luther King was not just a favorable one, but a tremendously excited one, and a very proud one. People were very very glad to see him here. On the subject of the things he said about Castro, about Gadhafi, about Arafat, my editorial page was a bit uncomfortable about those remarks but we're also very sorry that the ANC didn't have any other allies to turn to. If the ANC could have found some support in the United States, from the United States government, during those early, dark days, then Nelson Mandela and the ANC would not have had to take Fidel Castro as an ally. You have to remember when nobody else was there for the ANC or very few others were there, Fidel Castro was there, so it is also understandable to me that Nelson Mandela would now remember that and thank him for that support.

MS. WOODRUFF: All right. What about that here in Washington, Mark Shields, how much of an issue were the things that Cynthia Tucker just referred to?

MARK SHIELDS, Syndicated Columnist, Washington Post: They were a major issue, not so major an issue, Judy, that it stopped every politician in shoe leather from trying to get his picture taken with Nelson Mandela. I mean, I never saw as many people crowded, elbows and knees, Republicans, conservatives, liberals, Democrats wanting to be seen with him. He is somebody who remembers. He remembered the United Auto Workers. He went to them and thanked them. He thanked the AFL-CIO, who had also stood with him. I think Clarence has touched upon something, and that is that there is in this country, and Rolling Stone Magazine did a poll of baby boomers done by Peter Hart, I think it was a year or so ago, a yearning for heroes, and the last heroes, American baby boomers, were Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King, and they've been searching ever since, and this man, whatever one says about him, is an affirmation of the profound American ideal, and that is that one person can really make a major difference, one person with courage and the kind of courage that he's shown.

MS. WOODRUFF: And you're saying that even the statements about Gadhafi and Arafat and Castro didn't really dilute that?

MR. SHIELDS: I don't think they did. I really don't. I mean, do people prefer he didn't make them? Sure. I mean, does it really talk for the apostle of human rights to be indifferent to human rights abuses in other countries? No, that certainly doesn't commend him, but at the same time, when you are isolated, did we look at Marie Antoinette at the time of the revolution and say, my God, she really ought to be a little bit more bountiful in her concern about her serfs? We were seeking French help for our own liberation.

MS. WOODRUFF: David.

DAVID GERGEN, Editor-At-Large, U.S. News & World Report: I think overall that Nelson Mandela strengthened the commitment to sanctions within the Congress and within the Executive Branch and by the President.I think he helped himself here in Washington.

MS. WOODRUFF: How did he do that, just by showing up, or something he said?

MR. GERGEN: Well, his sheer moral courage and his grace here I think were very much appreciated and he spoke frankly, he spoke with an eloquence that was compelling, so I think he did extremely well here, and I think his visit was an absolute triumph in black America. I would raise this one question. I'm not sure that white America was paying as much attention as some of these comments suggest. I find distressing, and I disagree with one of your previous speakers about America paying a lot of attention to international affairs. I think we're tuning out too much. Nelson Mandela gave an absolutely riveting interview to Ted Koppel eight days ago, as you remember, on ABC, and then of course Robin interviewed him seven days ago. And if you look at the numbers on the Koppel interview, which was in prime time, they were very meager numbers. Here in Washington, Mandela was on live on two stations, and the combined audience played less, was less than a rerun of a sitcom. So you know, I think that the man --

MS. WOODRUFF: This is the city with the majority black.

MR. GERGEN: A quarter of the viewers in the city are black. I don't think there's any question that -- I think it's wonderful the way the black community responded to him, I think a lot of whites responded to him, but I would raise the question of whether white America is paying as much attention to Mandela as we might think and whether, in fact, America is paying the kind of attention to foreign affairs that we think.

MS. WOODRUFF: Ed Baumeister, what is your view of it in Trenton?

ED BAUMEISTER, Managing Editor, Trenton [NJ] Times: Well, we got pretty excited in Trenton. We sent a couple of people to New York to cover him. Normally we cede New York to the New York Times. But it strikes us that the longer Mandela is here, the more he is judged by American political standards. This man isn't a candidate running for anything here, trying to become acceptable here. If he's like anything else, and this may seem like a wild comparison, he's like a Pope. He's a man dedicated to a single principle whose likes sometimes differ from our likes and even our laws, the Pope on abortion. At this moment, the right to abortion is constitutionally protected. The longer he's here though or maybe just the design of his trip, he seems to be getting criticism as if he were going to stay and needed to be accepted, and I don't think that's the case and we don't at the paper.

MS. WOODRUFF: So you think the might have been more revered if he had had a shorter stay, is that what you're suggesting, if he hadn't gone to as many cities or stayed as many days or what?

MR. BAUMEISTER: Yeah, I think that there's a certain inevitability to these marathons in coverage. The first day it's - - even I should say with the Pope, the current one whose first visit I covered, after a while you start looking for something else, what's new, what more can we say about him, and the more we probed, it seems, the more we used our own prejudices and standards, when I think largely they were inappropriate.

MS. WOODRUFF: Lee Cullum, how does it look from Dallas, a city he did not visit?

LEE CULLUM, Editorial Page Editor, Dallas Times-Herald: Judy, I wish he had come to Dallas. I think he would have been very well received here. People in Dallas were very moved by Mandela's great personal dignity. It occurs to me he may be what Vaclav Havel, the president of Czechoslovakia called an integrating personality. Havel said that on 20/20 a few months ago. Havel, himself, is for me an integrating personality. He integrates the man of thought and the man of action, and it may be that Mandela can integrate black and white in the imagination of the peoples of the world. I think it's very possible.

MS. WOODRUFF: What about some of the troubling, the statement that others have mentioned here tonight that troubled some Americans, was that an issue in Dallas, the Gadhafi, Arafat and so forth?

MS. CULLUM: Oh, I think that people here wish he hadn't made those statements, however, you remember Henry Kissinger said that nations have interests, they don't have friends, and I'm wondering if Mandela gets closer to real power in South Africa, closer to governing that country, he might begin to see these other things differently. I hope he does.

MS. WOODRUFF: Gerry Warren in San Diego, you get the last word on this apparently.

GERALD WARREN, Editor, San Diego Union: Well, you know, Nelson Mandela is just coming to the West Coast today. He arrived this afternoon in Los Angeles, and we, of course, are covering him. I think Ed made some good points about the length of his visit here. He obviously commanded a great deal of attention when he arrived and with all the crowds, but something interesting is happening here. He is a firm man, a strong man, he says what he believes, and he did when he mentioned his support for Castro, Arafat, and Gadhafi, but what he is finding in the United States is how real freedom really works. He has been treated impertinently by a television interviewer on ABC. He has received protests in the streets in Miami. That is the way freedom works. And I think perhaps Nelson Mandela might learn as important a lesson from his trip as we have learned from him.

MS. WOODRUFF: The lesson being --

MR. WARREN: The lesson being that freedom means that there is room for diverse thoughts and there's room for disagreement, and you do not have to agree with me simply because my cause is correct.

MS. WOODRUFF: Mark, what about the, just to come back to Washington just for a second here, what about the point that maybe he could have helped himself if he hadn't stayed as many days in the United States?

MR. SHIELDS: Well, I don't know. I can tell you this. I was talking to somebody in Boston. I think the impact of the man wherever he goes is profound and it's almost a follow-up on the Gadhafi business. He went into Boston and Boston has been a racially troubled city, it's been polarized, and he brought hundreds of thousands of people together on the matter. It was really a marvelous moment. He was told not to mention Michael Dukakis. Michael Dukakis is political poison in Massachusetts; don't mention him. He stood up, recalling that Michael Dukakis during his campaign had been very strong for sanctions, throughout his career had been strong for sanctions, mentioned Dukakis several times, and his wake, he left this sense of good feeling, so I don't know if the visit was too long or too short.

MS. WOODRUFF: All right. Well, gentlemen --

CLARENCE PAGE, Editorial Board Member, Chicago Tribune: May I say something, Judy?

MS. WOODRUFF: Yes, just quickly. We've got 20 seconds.

MR. PAGE: Very quickly, one thing we haven't touched on is in many ways what is appealing about South Africa and unifying for Americans as an issue is that its racial situation is to us so much easier to figure out and in some ways, it's a way of showing that we all do care and can get together around a racial issue, even when we can't necessarily answer the problems of our own complex issues, like affirmative action and others.

MS. WOODRUFF: Very good point, Clarence Page. And on that note, I want to thank all eight of you. You were all splendid. Thank you very much. UPDATE - CALIFORNIA FIRES

MR. MacNeil: As we reported earlier, calm winds and cooler overnight temperatures are helping firefighters contain a 4,000 acre fire in Santa Barbara, California. County officials there say more than 500 homes and businesses have been destroyed in the fire they suspect was started by arson. Damage is estimated at $500 million. Two Californians have been killed. We have an update from Correspondent Jeffrey Kaye of public station KCET-Los Angeles.

MR. KAYE: Yesterday morning, the fire was burning out of control in the hills above Santa Barbara. It was fueled by brush dried by four years of drought. Officials conducting an arson investigation said they had found an incendiary device where the fire was lit. Firefighters feared their efforts would be hampered by high winds. That's what happened Wednesday night when gusts that pick up at sunset, sun downer winds, pushed the inferno 100 acres a minute down the hill, through the canyon, to the ocean.

DALE MILLER, Venture County Fire Department: It's erratic winds and it'll blow for a little bit from the South, and the North, and the East, and it just swirls, and that spreads rapidly, it spreads fires, and when it does of course, the temperatures get very high, as it's doing right now, we're going to get into it, and then the inversion, which means the smoke kind of hangs in here, and then the winds start blowing and that spreads the fire.

MR. KAYE: After surveying the damage, California Gov. George Deukmadjian declared a state of emergency, making residents eligible for low interest loans. Teddy Gasser rented this house. She lost it and most of her possessions.

TEDDY GASSER: I got my jewelry first and I packed my toothbrush and my make up and I don't know. It's really interesting. I sort of gathered up things and then I realized that I'd left probably the most important thing, which was the stereo.

OTHER WOMAN: And it's still up there.

MS. GASSER: And it's still up there, part of it. The owner was back today, walked in, and told us how to walk in and -- hey, can we get a ride [yelling at passing car and laughing] --

MR. KAYE: While some residents tried to find their way out, local police turned onlookers away. Most roads leading to the fire area were blocked. Six planes flew overhead, dropping fire retardant to contain the blaze. Convicts trained in firefighting helped professionals from around Southern California battle the blaze. Alfonso Mitchell was proud to be a part of the team.

ALFONSO MITCHELL: I was tense at first, during the night, and in the morning, trying to calm down and get a chance to get in there and do a little work for the community.

MR. KAYE: Volunteers from the community pitched in wherever help was needed. The First Presbyterian Church housed evacuated residents of a retirement home. Other volunteers rounded up breeding horses valued at up to $70,000 each.

PAUL ECONOMOUS: What we're encountering now is strays. They've become spooked and they're roaming through the hills and canyons here. And we're making efforts to pick them up.

MR. KAYE: The media helped unite residents, often providing needed information. [RADIO ANNOUNCEMENT]

BRIAN GREEN, KTMS Radio: The Fatsiani family, $100 to the relief fund, the fire fund, Elizabeth Stapleman 100 bucks, people, they're offering their homes and offering their farms, offering places for people to sleep, there's been a real outpouring of community affection through all this and we've just been sort of the channel for all that.

MR. KAYE: While some residents were pledging support, those devastated by the fire were picking up pieces of their lives. What's left?

EARL BERG: [Digging through Rubble] Not too much. We're just looking for personal stuff. We've just got a couple of handfuls of stuff and that's it.

WOMAN: You want to try to save one of these? [Picking up bowl]

EARL BERG: Might as well.

MR. KAYE: Residents in the same vicinity, even next door neighbors, had sharply different experiences. The fire swirled in a bizarre, uneven pattern, engulfing some objects and sparing others. Some homes survived because families like the Dinnogen who were prepared, unlike their neighbors who had wood shingle roofs, their composite roof was built to withstand fire.

LINDA DINNOGEN: The one next door to us was an original 26 year old shake roof. We've also got a pool in the back that we put a pump in that we bought expressly for that, a gas pump that we bought maybe six years expressly for that reason. My husband put the line in and pumped water like crazy onto the roof.

DALE MILLER, Ventura County Fire Department: I direly hate shake shingle roofs and always have, and we just saw time after time after time, and when people want nice houses, all they can think about is the shake shingle roofs and they're going to keep firemen in business as long as they keep doing it.

MR. KAYE: By late yesterday afternoon, firefighters seemed to have the upper hand. Temperatures cooled and the feared winds were no problem.

JERRY MANN, Carpenteria Fire Department: It's pretty calm. They're getting good, a lot of time to air drop it, and fight it with helicopters and if everything holds up at this stage, we should be in good shape by morning.

MR. KAYE: This morning, cool weather allowed firefighters to predict imminent containment. Sharon Stewart is with the National Forest Service.

SHARON STEWART, National Forest Service: It's 50 percent contained at this time. If you can look at this map here, you can see from 101 these green lines are the contain lines. As you get back up into the ridge line, we still have live fire in uncontrolled lines.

MR. KAYE: When do you expect it will be contained?

MS. STEWART: They're targeting noon tomorrow, but a lot depends on the weather today.

MR. KAYE: In the devastated neighborhoods, this was a day to assess the damage and to plan for the future. Contractors and insurance company representatives were out in force. An agent from the utility company surveyed homes.

AGENT: Do you know if your electric meter is still there?

RESIDENT: No.

AGENT: No remnants whatsoever?

RESIDENT: No.

MR. KAYE: Workers fixed damaged power lines. Southern Californians have long been accustomed to dry, hot summers typically accompanied by brush fires. The other part of the cycle could be expected this winter if the drought lets up. With normal rains, hillsides like this, lacking vegetation to keep them intact, could be subject to mud slides. RECAP

MS. WOODRUFF: Again, the main stories of this Friday, Pres. Bush vetoed a bill which would give workers 12 weeks of unpaid leave for family emergencies, NASA grounded the space shuttle program after a hydrogen leak was discovered on the shuttle Atlantis. A similar leak was recently found on the shuttle Columbia. And Lithuania's parliament voted to temporarily suspend its declaration of independence. Good night, Robin.

MS. WOODRUFF: Good night, Judy. That's the Newshour tonight. We'll be back on Monday night with full coverage of the Communist Party congress in Moscow. I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night.