An American in Communist China

The National Association of educational broadcasters welcomes you to a special interview with early Williamson one of the 40 want Americans who toured communist China after attending the Moscow youth festival. Although some of Mr. Williamson's remarks may be construed as being sympathetic toward communist China this program is being broadcast in order to demonstrate the impressions which could be gained by Americans traveling in China today. Here to question Mr. Williamson is Conan Dee EDWARDS Well Mr. Williamson would you like to tell us something about the trip to Peking from Moscow you came by the Trans-Siberian Railway Yes we took care of the sleeping cars from Moscow it was a very long trip. We lost an hour a day and by time zones it was very pleasant very comfortable pleasant dining cars we had a chance to read and take notes and all that happened to us in Moscow. I mean you made both the trains was it with a restaurant cause Yes we had a dining car. And with Stephens for overnight saving.

Yes they were compartments but they were very comfortable. Sort of four in a compartment but without a door. But a very very nice for a group like ours. Go to the mattresses I want just pads very comfortable. Tell me did you stop off at any of the bases on route across Siberia. Not much in Siberia. We stopped occasionally when we did stuff for another time. There was a brass band welcoming all the people of the town would come out and. For the bigger stops speeches were made by the delegations from Australia United States India and others who were on this particular train. Flowers little girls giving us flowers and. Running up to us with her chief to put around her neck something like that. Twenty bene's as a bell yes it was terrific. And when you crossed into China did you travel in the same train or did

you transfer to a Chinese train well after we got into China and mindfully we changed to a Chinese train and it was a lovely train highly finished wood paneled was compartments green velvet horse hair cushions made into beds and the food was it Johnny. We were extremely disappointed to find out that instead of serving us Chinese food as we had expected for this last week we were served excellent western food. Well the evidence is of Russian Sino Russian cooperation on the operation of the railroad or did the Chinese take completely over after they crossed the border for the Chinese to go completely as far as I could see the Russians are not still helping to know we really were very much missed our Russian interpreters we become very good friends with and we try to get them to come along with us but of course it's too late to make arrangements. Now you mentioned the American and the Australian delegations coming along on this trip with you. How many countries were represented on this visit to Peking and to China.

Oh I do remember offhand but I know there were some West Germans and some Indians and some Vietnam's. I believe in Asia. That's all I can think of offhand I suspect there are others. Did you mix very much oh did you stay as delegations in groups where you conducted around a separate group so well when we got to China we all split up in Peking. We took a tour north and some of the delegations took a tour south and we met again making when we all returned for a few days early in September. When you got into China you went directly to Peking. A big yes we took the train from the northern border town of naturally down to making some of these trips and what awaited you and they came to do have a generator you know. Oh yes we stayed at the pinking hotel which was a very fine hotel near the center of the city.

Western style and what arrangements were made for you. You had free travel and accommodation Yes everything was free. We were guests of the Chinese Federation. As a matter of fact I didn't stay with the group all the time. I for example ate in little restaurants and went to an ordinary movie with some Chinese friends of mine who spoke English well you made friends did you I mean you were you know not as many as I wished I could but anyway a few. You were assigned I take it then guides and interpreters. There was a programme of guided tours and entertainments to factories to. Schools and so forth and we can go to any of these we please. But we didn't have to you know we stayed up arguing all night for example we could easily skip the morning tour whether any among you in the American delegation if I may go to that news and then talk Chinese themselves so that they could communicate directly with the people.

No this was a sad thing. If Perhaps if our government had given more support to it we might have got some people who spoke Chinese on our group. But as it is we were not selected because we could speak Chinese you know. Did you feel at all that you were getting proper communication with the people through your interpreters did you feel that you were able to nationally. It was as proper as you can get through an interpreter. I even learned how to speak to small children through an interpreter. It's undoubtedly poorer than just plain talking and you really ticks twice or three times as much time even. Not to mention the slight depersonalization of an interpreter conversation. But we saw a lot and we do talk to some people. I have invented a mechanical aspect to it I was wondering about any political inhibitions that this introduced into questioning if you did ever think of questioning people about about conditions about their

political beliefs. If I had to do you well I mean it would be. Well this this didn't occur to me but my impression would be that an interpreter and a Chinese interpreter for us would be very careful of being criticized of trying to swing. Conversation or influence and this would be I think a very embarrassing thing for interpreters to do and they would realize this. You went outside Peking didn't you you went on to industrial areas. Yes. When you do they say well we went to the China motor works and the north east China which is one of the new plants that they're very very proud of. They first built the worker's apartment dwellings and then the workers moved in and built up the plant which is quite a large plant. And then the construction workers moved out in the. And the factory workers moved in and now they produce trucks. We saw their whole production line took lots of photographs

of it. And at the end of the production line the Americans jumped into two trucks and drove them out of the factory. I was on one of the trucks myself. The fellow sent the trucks through very well they had never driven trucks before but they did think got in and drove them. He mentioned that taking pictures in the factory now in Moscow I believe some people got into trouble through taking pictures as I do do you feel the atmosphere was more relaxed in China than in Russia with regard to such things such security as well. Even in the Soviet Union I had no trouble taking pictures of anything I didn't have a picture of a Soviet airfield with jet planes on it I I didn't bother asking if it were against any rules. No one ever mentioned anything so I just ignored everything. In China of course I had to photograph trouble either. But I didn't run into any for going to missions at all. Perhaps it's just that. Didn't come up.

And did you get to it and show a major industrial center steel producing I know we missed that we had a big argument in the delegation some people wanted to see on China some people wanted to see the southern city of Cannes time we could only do one because of the limitation of time so we all decided we'd see Cantata we only saw one shot from the train window we passed it for many many minutes. It's a huge steel plant. I understand they're making about five million tonnes a year now and then you went down to Canton and I was there for about two and a half days on my way home to California but I was alone. Oh I say you came back at an arrest. Now with China where do you go apart from Peking. Well after the motor works we went south to direct the seaport where we were given a tour of the bay and shown the shipyards because the chief engineer was the fellow with us. He spoke English. He was showing us

around. He showed us the workers quarters he showed us a nursery school and we got into a discussion with the chief engineer on how they bring up children in China it was amazing how experience he seemed to be in this particular realm tending to explain to us the socialist way of bringing up children. We asked him in detail what does what is a socialist way bring up children. He said well if you teach them to cooperate and to pick up their toys when they're finished with them and things like this of course it seems very much like home. But I didn't mention it to him. You know he knows that he probably was American educated us. I believe he was educated at MIT but I'm not sure. And did you meet many people there who indicated that they were educating America. Of course neither one is who can speak English most of them were educated in America. One of the most fascinating people that I talked to was with a group of three or four

Americans the well-known old architect I believe his name is. And taking. One of the things he said to us was him referring to all of the studies in America. The trip to America for me he said in the many years I spent there cost the equivalent of 700 Chinese farmers working 50 years. And he said. How can I ever repay the Chinese people for what they've given me. I thought this was a rather remarkable spirit to be expressed. Now while you were in China you did visit some of the imprisoned Americans. Yes I visited effect Oh he believed with Don he was shot down and cure in progress somewhere around in there during the Korean War. And what condition did you find that. Oh he was healthy. I asked

him what he did all day. He said I read there's nothing else to do. He gets an hour walk in the courtyard every day he's a P E major from Boston University. And he didn't look on athletic Apparently he probably has exercises to keep himself in shape. He looked as though he had a lot of want to have to his beard clean and dressed in modest clothing. He wasn't impressed at all. He was very excited when we see we saw him when he came in the room he said My goodness. Half an hour ago they told me I was going to see you people. I knew I was very excited to hear that there were Americans going to my school festival and. And I was very glad that that a bunch of you had decided to come to China but I certainly didn't expect that you would see me. He didn't resent the fact that you were coming into China at the invitation of the communists who had imprisoned him not no we didn't bother him as far as what was his attitude towards his sentence I had to change.

We were asked not to discuss circumstances of the conviction. The nearest we got to that I suppose was a general question on what he thinks of China. And we said Well have your and your view of China changed much he says oh yes it's changed completely. Well you see he had seen a little bit of china they took on a six week tour a year ago of China very much like the tour that the Americans are getting only because it really longer. And he also gets a lot of information about China from his roommate who was a going down official I believe in a wealthy Shanghai businessman who lost his brand new Buick when he was convicted and put in prison. Facto said you know you think this fellow would be really sore but he wasn't he was very objective. He has a lot to say in favor of kind of his and think to himself said that he had seen Shanghai up during the latter part of the Second World War I believe.

And again he had seen Shanghai in 55 or 56 and he said quote something like this Shanghai really makes the communist look good. There are no more beggars and no more prostitutes and everyone is closer than the children look well cared for. It was of course went in John of the four saying you can't go ahead. All right but what was your impression of the condition of the general population considering that China of course it hasn't got a highly developed economy for consumer goods yet. Well I had read something about China and I expected a good deal more filth and disease and I found I suppose whenever you arrive someplace new. The smell is one thing that strikes you. I remember the first time we arrived and naturally we sniffed the air and we didn't know what the smell was and funny we realized it was a very faint smell of disinfectant.

The Chinese people seem that the city seems clean people seem in a fairly good morale. They work hard but only an eight hour a day six days a week. As far as I have a name find living standards are very low of course but this doesn't seem to bother them. As you know this blue cloth which was produced in vast quantities after the nineteen forty nine thousand fifty shift. Yes this was very commonly used for work clothing. But on Sundays and holidays they were going for different styles of clothing. The women wore Gailey flower and dresses both Chinese style and Western style. Blouses and skirts and the men wore sports shirts and slacks and a stand that women have abandoned except for the

strongest sort of party members. The women have abandoned the Mao Tse-Tung type uniform and have gone back to traditional Chinese tourists about those things. Yes a lot of the women wear slacks like American women as men if I asked some of them begin to approach pedal pushers and length I believe. But they don't look on feminine. They don't wear the tunic on top they were a soldier some of them some food doctor they are something. Did you come in contact at all with the neighborhood group organization by which each sector of the city perhaps by street down by block is organized with a chairman usually a housewife was also a party member organizes a social activities and civic activities a group and the health activities and health education do come into contact with are told no we heard about it here and there. Approximately what you're saying but I wasn't able to get to know you this is the sad thing about being there for only two or three weeks yes.

Did you visit the universities. Yes I visited three universities. The characteristic of universities in China seems to be from the few that I've visited is construction. But I guess all over China there are new bricks sitting around on a log and rope scaffolding all over the place. The universities are being built up fast. You have a combination of very old buildings and very new buildings. The student programs are very heavy. They work very hard. A great part of that time is given to political education. I understand. Well I wouldn't say that was much more than what we give to our social studies. Frankly I'm really not too much because I've met young students from Shanghai and Peking in Hong Kong on vacation in Hong Kong complaining bitterly about the amount of time they had to give over to political indoctrination which they felt they should be giving they needed to give to their studies.

Well this this may be. Point it may have changed somewhat in the last since since the rectification campaign. I believe there has been a slight shift and one has to really find out perhaps we can look over the program of studies that I have from these universities and we could look up in detail just what changes there might have been. Actually we should have observers there for time to find out these things since it is rather stupid shame that we don't know you men mention this rectification campaign which of course started with this famous speech in February and 27 February when he said that all flowers bloom and a hundred schools of thought contend and they've been sort of a great deal of public criticism of the regime by not only known communists but also some of the leading companies like dialing. Did you meet any of the people who have been prominent in the criticism of the regime like for instance in

noncommunist ministers and young Nigerian John but you know I didn't get to talk to any of the nine communist ministers perhaps some of the other Americans did at the reception. The only thing I know about it is what I read. I don't know if you can get the active literature on the subject here in the United States or not. It's rather a shame to get a great deal of the criticism of the regime came from the university from students writing in their publications and making speeches at university and from professors and making graven radio speeches attacking the regime. Did you at the university get any sort of hint of this controversy that was going on this heated debate. Well not directly I wish we had. I think I think it's understandable that the

university should be one of the most active political focus focal points of view of the country. One person mentioned to me that 60 or 70 percent of the students at picking University came from landlord families or landlord families being ones which are lost perhaps when the communists came in. What was the attitude of these students to the regime. Their parents having been deprived of their social status as well as evidential position to do it. If you talk to any of these youngsters you know I would never talk to any of these. Did you meet any of the former landlord class at all. No what you see of religious activities in China I believe some of your group attended church and began the New Year Rev. McKenna and several others did visit

churches and talk to some of the clergy there. I didn't go myself but my impression from them it was that there are many active Christians in China. Not as made America of course but there is an active Christian group in China. The Catholic Church Of course in China has been more or less nationalized No. And whether any Catholics of the Group Use there were. I didn't talk to them enough to comment about cultural activity. Did you see any stage productions of Chinese music at the Peking Opera and. One of the most fascinating things that I saw was the what do they call it now that it was in Canton the people's cultural palace or something like that.

It was a sort of a grand amusement park with ferris wheels and and airplanes going around at a 45 degree angle like we have an army and parks. Then they had a puppet show a classical shadow puppet show. There was an exe an exhibit of prints of contemporary or recent French paintings with the explanations in Chinese. There was a singer for Cantonese opera with a small instrumental group whether there was a waxwork dummy's showing life in early China and so forth and an amazing variety of things in this cultural palace I guess it cost 10 cents to get in. And that's not much. It's about four cents American money and the place was crowded the evening we were there crowded with smiling people and children on their shoulders or walking along.

Well they had acrobats too and things to eat all over the place. It's very exciting. Culture in the broadest sense of the word. What about the arts. Did you meet any artists on how with a painting at a with a painting in the other party line stereotype type of painting you find in the Soviet Union or do they show individual ism. I didn't get to see as much Chinese art as I would like to. Some of the Americans saw a great deal more than tell you about it. I did see one Chinese artist painting in one of the one of the big club houses that we visited and he was showing us some of the intricacies of traditional Chinese painting the landscape of fog Yangtze Valley kind of painting. There was a little bit of socialist realism Soviet style but I didn't see much of it.

I'm not very interested in it myself and I suspect that most of the Chinese like their own rich artistic tradition. I've shown you some of the prints and I'm going to flag those are modern ones and those are contemporary France. So the government isn't strictly bending the artists to the state line to state policy. No more and I can see especially in the hundred flowers 100 flowers especially it seems to me has opened up art and science. Did you get to read any Chinese writing modern writing translated into English while you were in China. Just a little bit. I brought quite a bit quite a bit home which I was allowed through the customs interestingly enough. I have it here and I'm going to read it as soon as I can see it so my friends are reading

it. If you haven't had a chance to get an idea yet whether this also reflects see the the free debate that is going on. I imagine it must I understand it's going yes but I don't know. Didn't the Chinese literature magazine have a quite a display from from left to right. I have opinions on various topics. What about 400 and art and movies in China was a much evidence I don't know can movies and don't get in any great scale but Western European communist country does get in and movies too don't there's a great deal. We were having Asian Film week and taking when I was there. I didn't go to the Asian films I just saw the Chinese films. There were films from India and Vietnam and Indonesia Japan they for example had seen the gate of hell and the other Japanese films that we had seen. Yes and Russia mon Yes

and I don't think they've seen many American films. This is a tragedy because I think some of our films will be very popular in China and I think they would help to humanize the American people in the eyes of the Chinese. I understand from friends in Peking that recent days the distributors of films have dug out some old prints they had of American films that were left behind from the pre Communist victory period. And among them that it was showing recently the film from the bell. Oh I see. And they want about the famous one about the South Gone With The Wind. Oh yes I heard about those. Yes I heard. But they took Gone With The Wind and put a Chinese soundtrack on it must have been fascinating. Now before you left Peking you didn't need to join night into. Well I yes I shook his hand and I took photographs of him. We after after the reception where all of the delegations from other countries were

there. He gave the Americans as he had given other groups from other nations a more or less formal interview and he started out this interview. We were all hot under the lights on TV you know that sort of thing. He started out this interview saying you people have come here to see China and you can see more with your own eyes and I can tell you. But as since you've asked to to talk with me I'll be glad to answer any questions you have. I was a rather remarkable way to start out. Did any of the question as who put questions to you and I did they put what we might call searching questions. Oh yes. And leading raised in Zurich and I have you heard the transcript of this interview. I understand it's around somewhere I don't know has it. I think we shipped to one of our news agencies in Lascaux and then to the states from there.

But oh yes how did he impress you. All of these info was straight forward because it is difficult to characterize such a complicated person and such a. Thing as joy in life as being smooth or invasive. You have to read the questions and answers yourself I think you interpret that yes. Did you meet any of the other prominent communist leaders while you were there. No that's all. Did you feel from this fact of having these television cameras and microphones and dogs and so forth around that there was any deliberate effort to make undue propaganda take undue propaganda advantage of your visit on the Chinese border. Yes on the Chinese thought. Well it's hard to know what you want to call propaganda.

I have heard many Americans say that this is obviously a propaganda propaganda plot by the Chinese but oh well now about to return home. You can tell the others who are staying on and going back. And I must go with you. Well no so they're doing all different directions I believe. And you came you came back. Yeah I had to get back at Stanford to study this semester. That's why I left early. And how did you come. Well I left the group at picking and they started south and I wouldn't thinking and took a plane to Canton and I stayed in Canton for two days or three days. And then I left China from there by train. Well thank you so much for telling us of your experiences in China. Thank you. You have heard earlier Williamson one of the forty want

Americans who toured the communist China after attending the Moscow youth festival. Although some of Mr. Williams and remarks may be construed as being sympathetic toward communist China this program was broadcast in order to demonstrate the impressions which could be gained by Americans traveling in China today. This special interview was produced and recorded by Conan Di Edwards distribution was handled through the facilities of the National Association of educational broadcasters. This is the end E.B. Radio Network.