Challenge to Higher Education

There are some very good things that are sort of about it and that we it's that if we if we think of it as all evil or wholly good we are likely to make an error in two different directions. I sense a growing feeling that the federal government over the next decade is going to have to take a play a larger part in the financing of higher education. Now those of us who have spent our time in the private institutions and I have spent all of my life in a private institution of one sort or another have tended to resist this trend on the assumption that we don't want to get involved in a kind of authoritarian control of higher education that the genius of American education is diversity and the very character of our life for that which is given birth to a variety of institutions in a variety and many kinds of institutions is the genius of American education. And we've been I feel I'm sure held back a bit but I think I speak now as a member of the board of

directors of the sauciest American colleges I know that in this association we've had a very great change and most of these institutions are private institutions. In the last decade. And I think the position that many people are coming to have been conservative on this issue is that if we cannot find the funds private funds from private sources to do the job we're going to have to do it in another way. And it may be that we're going to have to reconcile ourselves to the fact that the federal government is going to have to have any kind of partnership with us in the enterprise from the point of view of perhaps building buildings which where we're now doing in the field of the dormitory construction or classroom facilities which is now being proposed through this new bill it is now before the Congress or several bills a matter of fact through perhaps scholarship aid then the extension of loan funds. AB but not not in teachers the area teachers

salaries are those things which have to do with the curriculum. And if we can confine the partnership to those things that have to do with the material factors in higher education perhaps we shouldn't be quite as fearful of the whole movement and I'm speaking from a conservative point of view. Really and I'm representing I think a conservative view on this there are others others that would go much much farther than I have gone but I'm speaking from the standpoint of what I know best which is the movement within the Association of American comics. Let me ask Dr. Leslie how he feels about federal funds for faculty salaries. Well I have no fundamental fear of federal aid to education. I started out as a student at the University of Michigan a public institution and I've also taught at the private institution Brown University. Living in the environment of the private institution and in the public institution I've never felt that the source of funds

particularly contaminated the educational process seems to me as far as the federal government is concerned it must and ought to get into certain areas of support of higher education. The constitutional responsibility in the area of international relations and area of military defense is certainly a sad row even though we normally say support of education as a state and local function. Certainly in these areas it is a federal responsibility under the Constitution and I don't know why we shouldn't have the federal government support programs here programs for example in bringing foreign scholars to this country helping to develop our own area programs which language programs and also to the extent that some of the research. Has a bearing on. Defense improvement basic science now it seems to me the federal government should go into

this and the fact that the money comes from there doesn't contaminate particularly. The one thing that we must watch out for of course is that we maintain a balance in our educational programs. We all know that today is the day of Science money comes more readily to hand from either the state or federal government. In the science areas and there is less money available for the Humanities and I think we as presidents of universities and deans and others must try to use the free money that doesn't come with strings attached to to support the nonfederal lated the non-science areas we've we've got of course the possibility of being diverted and only because money is easy in one area and not easy in the other. Dr. Friday would you Catacomb in on federal aid to higher education also. DR No that we've been getting federal aid in the state universities. This year's The 100 years since its centennial year the land grant

college movement in America. And this program as we know has produced many splendid results for our country and if indeed it is in the national interest for institutions to remain strong and to do what we're doing. And it seemed clear to me that the Federal aid is going to be necessary shared doctor. Let each of you that I have not seen evidences of control following any federal support in the many programs that we experience in the University of North Carolina. I would also say with Dr. Anderson that probably the place to begin is in the extension of the facilities aspect of the program because this is one that is immediately needed by so many institutions in the country. Lest I be misunderstood I this is Anderson again. I don't want to suggest by inference that I am afraid of a control in the sense that you use that word. I do however if you take

the long view of the situation in this country I do think it is safer for us in this country to finance our educational institutions from many sources rather than from a single source. I think the safety the seat that the freedom that we have enjoyed and we wish to continue to enjoy and we will enjoy. It is easier and more easily maintained. When the economic roots of higher education are many rather than a few this is the only thing that I wish to add to that I don't I don't want to leave the impression that I was particularly afraid of the United States Office of Education. I don't read it and I don't want any of my good friends the work there. I have many hours ago at office. Nobody knew that no doctor had a while to develop some thoughts about present and future trends and that out of continuing education and what you are you're doing at the University of Pennsylvania about this.

Well of course the amount of continuing education is something which depends a great deal on the nature of the population with which you're concerned. And while I think our main concern is with that those persons who are leaving high school and who are looking toward opportunities to going into. The preparation for leadership in one or more of the professions or in a business engineering which are growing professions. These are people that come to you regularly and kind of by a matter of tradition. The society though in which we're living is is changing a bit because people have more leisure and women who were at one time were completely consumed by the requirements of keeping a house going. Now I have so many AIDS that if we find that around the city of Philadelphia

there are a large number of women who are able and anxious to continue an education which they did not feel it was really appropriate for them to work at during the period when their husbands were training to be doctors or lawyers. So that to here is a is a very large population around us who are looking to the university to give them opportunities of making their lives more interesting more useful and more enjoyable along in the in the periods of their 30s and 40s. Now as a result of this we are endeavoring to find the kinds of things which if. We as a university can and do within our limited financial abilities to make these lives more meaningful and more interesting. Of course it to some extent men also are working shorter hours as a result they have more leisure and we find these people

interested in anthropology and the history of mankind in the exploration of the relatively ancient civilizations in Central America and South America that the museum brings to them. And I think that as the years go on this is going to grow the the matter of concern to us here is that universities. Having been really deficit operations for a very long time cannot begin to enter this be of the extent maybe that it should be entered because of the lack of resources and the fact that these educational matters have generally been subsidized in one way or another. And there are no sources which are known to us which begin to adequately subsidize adult education around Philadelphia. It may be that the the state and the federal government will become concerned with this. In which case of course it can

prosper. On the other hand the cost to these people of such educational programs that is currently being borne very largely by them and as a result I think this is rather an inhibiting factor. I think that's quite right. Dr. Friday you have an extensive program I know of continuing education in a number of fields would you comment briefly on some of the things you're doing. Yes we are expanding this program now Dr. Knowles and we have many of the many programs that you normally find in evening colleges each of our campuses now has a pull program in the evening. We're working toward the establishment of a so-called continuation education centers on our campuses and in the summer time we bring in many many groups of citizens such as bankers lawyers tax officials and so on who come here for a period of study to obtain the most recent knowledge in their particular field of work so we are very much into this. Very interested in it and finding a very wonderful

response to it. I know Dr. Anderson that you do a good deal of this do in Washington. Yes some of your material in the Pentagon when I've been that been there. Yes of course the INS all the institutions in Washington do a good deal of work in this field because of the very nature of this community. I suppose there are more graduates of colleges per hundred hundred thousand of the population in the history of Comey than any any other city. And what this means is that of course these people are working for the federal government are anxious to go on and do graduate work. They come in here from all over the country and there is an unusual situation here that I haven't seen anywhere else in America. The quality of these of the student group at the graduate level taking part time work is unusually high. We use teachers in all of our institutions here do teachers who are who have been teachers elsewhere and who comment regularly on the quality of the of the student

group particularly the graduate level which is an unusual situation we face here in Washington now. We try to. Satisfy this demand if you will on the highest level consistent with good academic practice is a very difficult thing to do because of course the demands are all over the lot. You know one of the and it's a very difficult thing to plan this wisely and I think sometimes we offer entirely too many courses but we certainly have the enrolment you know you're doing a good job of it I know about 40 percent of the Portie percent of the students in these universities in the District of Columbia are our students that have not all of them achieve the bachelor's degree we're doing graduate work. But most of them have having I received a bachelor's degree elsewhere doing graduate work here now here at Northeastern we have a very large graduate program evening too we have some 30 500 students. About 2000 of them are in engineering and also in the science and

balance being in liberal arts and education. And we have a new set of a continuing education which is a beautiful state that was bought by us by Mr. Ernest Henderson the president the Sheraton cooperation one of our trustees and that is busy day and night and they told me of the day books out a little next January which shows the interest in these shot courses and workshops and these types of things that they're doing there. Now I know Dr. Leslie that you do a great deal of this too would you comment briefly on what you do. I'd like to comment on one aspect of this that President Friday mentioned namely the groups that come to the campus in the summer time. Those of us in public higher education frequently hear criticism that we aren't using our plant around the clock and that since our summer school and romance are less than they are during the regular year that. Here is an eye on used potential. Well if you were on one of our high campuses during the summer you will see streams of continuing ed as an education conferee as they come by the thousands literally

in all varieties and all forms of dress. And take over. So that would be wrong to say that the campus isn't used actively in the summer time. We constantly are having groups on the campus and as you know President Knowles in Massachusetts the continuing education or extension type activity is handled primarily through the State Department of Education it's not campus oriented. This means that except for the Cooperative Extension the Agricultural Extension Service we do not have quite as much of a responsibility in Massachusetts for the kind of coursework that you gentlemen have been talking about also being out here in the western part of the state and with no branches. We are not in a community where where there would be any large amount of evening coursework but we certainly have short course

conference activity all the time and particularly during the summer. You have reports of all that you're doing. And now Dr. Friday would you tell us briefly what you want to stand and by the term academic excellence and how does this apply to your particular institution. Well in response to that Dr. No that I would say first that the new emphasis in discussion on academic excellence translated here means that. We're advancing the admissions standards of the university requiring a higher level of performance in the public schools in the prep prepared to IT skills and I would like to point out on this point that it's my observation that most state universities now are requiring higher standards of admission. It's no longer the practice and all of them to take the student who comes with a high school diploma and the use of the College Board in the as a part of this admission procedure is growing. So first in

the matter of the selection of students the standard is becoming more rigorous. It follows then too that the requirements for the act of for academic performance grow too and you will find in most of the state institutions and the bigger ones that here again you will see increasing emphasis on both the quality of performance in the university. Thirdly we are establishing honors programs on our three campuses and we find that this is a splendid thing and the stimulation of the very able young people who come to us to go on and do the work they have the capacity to do. And of course in all of this we are seeking the finest people we can to come to us be with us to teach and to carry on the research programs because after all the level of quality that you can have relates directly to the quality of the faculty member you have in the classroom and in the laboratory. So these are some of the things that we see happening

in this new and greater emphasis on academic excellence as we move forward in this State University. Thank you Dr. fry to your institution has a reputation of excellence and I'm delighted to hear that you are even going to do a better job. Dr. Han welcome. Would you comment on this in particular would you say if you're worried about advanced placement and the role you are playing in this at the University of Pennsylvania. Yes I'm I'm very glad to indeed these are all the qualitative matters and one is often concerned about the standards that one has to be sure that they are the correct ones because it's very easy to fall back upon numerical grades and examinations and yet I'm sure that all of my colleagues will agree with me that this leaves us sometimes with some sense of doubt as to whether indeed these correlate properly with the value to society of the people that passed through our

halls and lecture rooms 25 and 50 years hence when really it's possible to look back and evaluate the kind of contribution that they have made to society. So that we are constantly on the alert and studying ways of making a better evaluation of the qualities of the people that we try to attract either as professors or is a junior instructors or his graduate students or as undergraduates because we want to make our ability using our resources go as far as we possibly can in the interests of American society and in order to do this. We I think can never have any complacency about some simple set of grades be they aptitude tests or performance tests because these really are our not indeed our ultimate objectives. So that as we have put in. Plans of having to do with advanced

placement in other words the arrangements for permitting a person to be admitted to a an advanced class rather than in the elementary one. These become important because they give time to a man they give additional opportunity to him if that he is permitted to go farther in the same time or perform a more useful educational function in the same time that this is employing our planet's more usefully in the interests of society as a whole. That all of these programs I think are particularly important in the quality of the education that these institutions produce. And if we get ever for a moment forget this matter of quality. We are greatly in danger of being subordinate to all kinds of external pressures which you could mention this evening and I am not in the least concerned as a head of a private institution with the availability of federal funds provided we as an institution

are always enabled to employ those funds in the ways in which we think they can be most effective in their purpose and are not constrained to employ them in some way we just simply appears to be quantitatively of advantage at the moment. So that the greatest amount of imagination which our faculty shows narcs didn't show in the way in which the quality of our education can be improved. This is the thing that gratifies our hearts particularly. Thank you Dr. Anderson. Yes we got two weeks ago Dr. Eisenhower President of Johns Hopkins University estimated the tuition costs of $2000 per year would not be unusual for a student within the next two or three years. Do you think those of us who in private or in private institutions are pricing ourselves out of the market so to speak. Well I this is a problem I will have to admit. If you look at the costs on a comparative basis between the private institutions in the

state supported situations you will find usually a differential in favor of the state supported institution. And it could be argued that if this is just simply a matter of the market and the usual factors that control the marketplace this might be the case. However I have seen the live long enough doubt of see the private the death of the private colleges predicted so frequently. And I have seen them grow in strength so consistently that I am I'm not inclined to be pessimistic about the growth of the future of the private institutions in spite of the financial burden that these institutions do face. I think that what we're going to have to do is to find a larger and I this is the obvious answer I think to your question we're going to have to find larger or more funds for scholarship purposes and a larger loan funds. We're going to have to really relieve this burden on the on the shoulders of those who cannot afford to pay but very

frankly I think there's some social obligation on the part of the family that can afford to pay for one's education to pay for it. Do you think we're getting to the point where maybe the public and public institutions are going to have to share the taxpayer's dollar with the private institutions. Well if we get into any kind of any kind of federal aid you would have to this is exactly what would happen. But you share the federal tax dollars rather than the local state tax dollars. You don't think that if you have a textile in the States. Well I don't know I'm I'm I would I don't know. Frankly I've lived in Washington too long to have a good view of what's happening in this of the states but. I think that the federal tax dollar is going to be shared. Yes I really do and I think I think it I think it has to be and I think this is the trend in that direction. Well I might add a word here this Gaillard Hardwell and the states of New York and Pennsylvania are as you know just part way between the rugged individualists of New England and the general state

education principles of all the rest the country and here in both New York and Pennsylvania you find state tax dollars are being given in the form of grants and assistance to universities such as Pennsylvania temple Pittsburgh and so on. And this is a very efficient way of Indeed conducting one's education because you do receive a state system somebody with all of these universities here in Pennsylvania receive the grants from the state for their purpose and as they indeed are out working for their own resources and as they collect large tuitions larger tuition than the state universities it turns out that indeed the public gets more education per state dollars in this way than they do if they never do support an institution completely by themselves. So I think that's quite right and I don't want to speak for the states because they don't live in one of the states of the reason I dodge that issue.

This is a very interesting topic we could talk for a long time on this I'd just like to ask Dr. literally now Dr. Dudley it's been said that higher education is a strong partner. And in fact nurses to a great extent the business and investor community. Would you care to comment on this. Well there's no question about that. On the one hand the turnout of students who become part of the bone and center of industry the students get the training and then go on to take their place if there wasn't a constant new flow of trained students with up to date now age. I think industry would wither and die at the same time. On the research side. The basic research that's being done in colleges and universities certainly primarily this becomes a resource in which the applied the more pride the researchers the technicians of industry rest

when they make this immediately available to us. I think it's very evident that the existence of colleges and universities which concerned with research has a definite bearing on the economy I think in Massachusetts Highway One twenty eight is developed because of the existence of Harvard and MIT and other educational institutions there. It's a good deal of evidence that the big industrial and electronic development in South Southern California is due to the existence of Cal Tech and some of the other educational institutions there so there's a definite relation and contribution. I may have to add this seduction noise that I think that the business community is being to recognize this in the way that it has not for a long time and I think that the we ought to sui ought to record our great satisfaction that the interest in the Corporations of America taken in the private gifts gifts to men's education was private and public and right and I think we ought to encourage this kind of

understanding of the relationship of the business community to hire and I'm right in the midst of this we have a thousand sixty employees of our cooperative students and I'm now trying to get them to give us good financial support and they're doing very very well. We're getting near the end of our gentleman and I just have time for one additional question I would just want to ask Dr. Friday is your state of State University and working closely with the industries in your state I have a feeling that it is very closely not to know that we have full dozen foundations that have been created with Relate themselves directly to our schools and the universities such as Google Business Administration the School of Forestry and agriculture and so on. And members of these corporations or on the board of directors of the several organizations and during the year this. Lead some times to a level of support a new money in the neighborhood of one and I had two million dollars a year which I think that is one of the gentleman I like to thank you for your participation this evening and I also want to thank the education

radio network for making this intercity discussion possible. Thank you and good night. You have heard a second discussion of the challenge to higher education. For a transcript of this evening's discussion or all the earlier group of presidents on May 3rd send your request and twenty five centimes to cover handling and mailing to the station to which you are to. Or to WGBH FM Cambridge forty two in Massachusetts participating on tonight's challenge to higher education were Dr. John W. latterly president of the University of Massachusetts speaking from WM UAF and me and Amherst Dr. Gail I'd be Hardwell president of the University of Pennsylvania speaking from the campus of Chestnut Hill and hard through w h y y FM in Philadelphia. Dr. Hurst our Anderson President the American University in the W A M U FM studios in Washington D.C. And Dr. William C. Friday President of the Consolidated University of North Carolina speaking from WNC FM

on the campus of the university and Chapel Hill and moderating from the WGBH FM studios. Dr A said S. Knowles president of Northeastern University in Boston. This program made available to the National Association of educational broadcasters by the educational radio network was produced by WGBH FM in Boston this is the ne e b Radio Network.