A Conversation with Chou En Lai (Reel 1)

Good evening I'm Robert Conley from National Public Radio in Washington. In a few moments we'll be bringing you a conversation with Joe online at the premier of The People's Republic of China. A conversation that took place in Peking between Joanne Lyon a Canadian cabinet minister your own look back Canada's Minister of Industry Trade and Commerce. It isn't every way I suppose an index of how swiftly the subsoil of history is changing that we should be hearing the voice words and thoughts of joy and why in this country after a long antagonisms between the United States and mainland China after the 22 years of diplomatic isolation that now on the surface it at least is beginning to soften. It is with Joe and why after all it President Nixon will deal on his journey to be king. A journey that's most likely to take place early next year. Even tonight in Washington lights burn late and offices around the nation's capital. At the White House at the State Department at the Central Intelligence Agency across the Potomac in the rolling hills of Virginia as interpreters analysts work

late trying to gather assess information. Indeed so great is the thirst for knowledge about Joe online. The man who runs the government of the People's Republic of China itself the most massive land in Asia with upwards of 800 million persons or nearly a quarter of mankind. The central question then is who is Joe in line at 73. He's were really bushy browed a figure in a grey Chinese tunic trim and pressed that tunic is with a button on its chest that reads serve the people and admonition of the mouths of dong chairman of the Chinese Communist Party. Perhaps Cho's party name or Joe's party name really the alias so to speak or the aspiration he sought that he used in the first stirrings towards the civil war in China. That other name the party name it sometimes called is shall Shon. It means small mountain. And he seems to be that way

in Peking where he runs that enormous mechanism of the Chinese government. German mime self seems to be a step removed a sort of philosopher in residence thinking really in grand sweeps about well about the direction of China as a nation. On matters of high policy at least as far as can be determined Joe consults with Chairman Mao. But I was on his own he handles the details of the government its relations with country acting as part president and part secretary of state. He does this on his own schedule. He tends to work late in the night and by working late in the night he also avoids those tiny dilemmas of decision that then show in line. And for that conversation with him we switch to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. So yes I will be singing that as the voice of Joel and lie.

Bringuier of the People's Republic of China. Administrator of the largest country in the world one of the most important men in the history of the 20th century one of the architects of a kind of revolution whose appeal extends far beyond the borders of China itself. A man most of the people of the Western world have never heard the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation presents a special documentary based on a conversation between a Canadian cabinet minister and prettier Joel and why. At 10 after 5:00 peaking time on the evening of July 2nd is underpaid by

a Canadian Minister of Industry Trade and Commerce at the head of a trade delegation visiting China met with Grenier Joanne Lai. At the same time one of the most stunning diplomatic events in the post-war period was in the making. United States President Richard Nixon was to announce some days later that he would visit what many consider to be America's most implacable enemy. In the light of this the conversation with Joe takes on added significance. The Bringuier had talked at length with some Western journalists and politicians before one of them just a running will be heard in this program. But until the conversation with the Canadian group which included several journalists Britney or Joe had not permitted a public conversation which could be recorded at any length. The tapes you will hear in this program are to the best of our knowledge the longest voice recorded with the broadest scope of a conversation with the premier 25 minutes of these tapes in edited form will be presented. They will be followed by a discussion between three men who have special insights into China former ambassador Chester

running Professor John K. fair bank of Harvard University and Alan Whiting a professor at the University of Michigan. They will comment on the tapes and also discuss the wider implications of the Nixon visit on the world political situation. The conversation between the new paper and Joanne lie was recorded by a journalist who was a member of the Canadian delegation. Morris Cutler Ottawa bureau chief of McLean Hunter business publications. On July the 1st the Communist Party of China celebrated its 50th birthday. For most of that hot century Joe in line has been at the forefront of Chinese history during his student days in France he helped found the Chinese Communist Party in Paris a year after the main party was established in China. When he returned to his country he worked during the 1920s with such epic figures as Sunny and Sen and Chiang Kai shek Jo played a prominent part later in the fighting against gangs nationalists and in 1934 helped much it don't lead the long march strategic retreat to you none. When the

Communists finally prevailed in one hundred forty nine up to fighting both the Japanese and the nationalists German I became the first premier and foreign minister of the People's Republic of China. It's in this role as an international diplomat and tough negotiator. The job was best known outside China. Unlike Chairman Mao and other Chinese leaders he is a truly a man of the world. In recent weeks he has become a sort of official Greta for China welcoming visitors by the score from ping pong teams to businessmen government leaders and journalists. As if this were not enough. Joe also serves as a member of the powerful standing committee of the Communist Party. And on the Military Affairs Commission Joe's interpreter told me that he works as much as 16 hours a day most days. Still prime minister of one quarter of the world Joe is at 73 a surprising survivor of China's cataclysmic cultural revolution of five years ago. At that time the ultra leftists were calling for his removal. But Joe fared better than leash ouchy they bitterly reviled former head of state who is now a convenient scapegoat for all of

the sins of the original revolution. Perhaps his links with the army save Joe. In any event the ultra leftist know it tasting some of the medicine they were dishing out in 1967 as a recent public trial of one of their leaders in an indoor stadium in Peking demonstrated while Chairman Mao is still very much the helmsmen. Joe NY is being given the credit by China watchers for holding the country together during the Cultural Revolution getting China back onto a stable course and setting the scene for the dramatic events last spring. And President Nixon's unexpected announcement of a couple of weeks ago in a few moments you'll hear Joe speak of these events and his hopes for China in a rare recorded conversation which took place in Peking the day off to the 50th anniversary. And exactly one week before his momentous chat with Kissinger. As a member of the Canadian party I met the Chinese prime minister in the great hall of the people. One of China's most striking public buildings on the western side of Peking central gentlemens square the great hole completed in the impressive time of 10 months contains two principal halls one

seating 10000 people the other 5000. There are as well more than a score of large reception rooms one for each of China's provinces. We arrived and were escorted to the brown and cream decorated room honoring few can Brahmans at the door Joe and I greeted the visitors individually and escorted them to a three tier stand for the customary official group photograph. Then we all sat down in cane chairs arranged in a circle dressed in his familiar gray military type suit in brown sandals. Joe appeared slimmer and smaller than I had expected. Is bushy eyebrows are not as prominent as they once were. But his eyes still have that intensity and concentration. The first sign of his advanced age came when he let Mr. Pepin a cigarette and his hand shook noticeably while he appeared somewhat fragile there was no hint of impaired faculties in his thoughts and expression. He ranged over such issues as birth control agriculture nuclear weapons education and the Cultural Revolution. He used both an English and a French speaking interpreter. But it was obvious that he was had a good command of English and a fair understanding of French. Like

most Chinese officials however he prefers the time to think the translation offers attendants came in during the talk with tea and onion chips and cool damp towels. Joe was a charming and gracious host smiling frequently at his guests. Most members of the party expected he would speak with us for an hour at the outside. But they are passed into the second hour and beyond. At one point Joe glanced at his watch raised his eyebrows in surprise at the length of the chat but continued when the interview ended up to two and a half hours. Joe was quoted as to the main door of the building and shook our hands wishing us a safe return to Canada. This recording you will hear makes up about half of the entire conversation shortened by a meeting back and forth translation by officials. The translation which will be superimposed over the Premier's voice is a transcript of what the official Chinese translators said at the meeting in places awkward grammar has been repaired and sentences made to flow. But in areas where the meaning is not too clear the verbatim translation of the Chinese official is

retained so as to avoid misquoting the premier as a result. Some of the translation you will hear is occasionally awkward. The first portion discusses Canadian sovereignty visibly in the United States a sensitive political issue in Canada at this time. The comments are interesting because the premier opened the discussion himself on this theme and praises Prime Minister Trudeau for remarks he made on his recent visit to Moscow about the necessity of maintaining Canadian political independence from the United States followed by Mr. Pitt back when the question is how to really proceed on the path of independence sovereignty and self-reliance of keeping a nation in your own him. That is an arduous task. I say that on the basis of perceiving your actual circumstances and the situation which I have learned of your committee I know it is very natural for you to want to develop relations with various quarters and that is very natural particularly your prime minister and his excellency Mr. Trudeau made a speech in Moscow in which he referred to this matter and it

was quite something for him to speak like that because the situation in which he finds himself is different from the situation in which we find ourselves. We are we are trying hard as well as we can to have independence in national and foreign policy as possible in our time. We are very much aware of the interdependencies between peoples in the world and we're trying to play as constructive a role as we can. What we have and I appreciate it very much for that said which is a recognition at least of the efforts that we're trying to put the friendship between the peoples of different countries yet more important it is not an easy thing for a nation of 20 million to live side by side with a nation of 200 million.

You need very strong will and patience. We're doing our best advantages also. We're trying to maximize the advantages and minimize the visits that must be Chinese wisdom and openness of the people of the world all have such wisdom. For instance France and. How many are getting along much better with each other now. They have been hostile with each other for about half a century so the people there will surely be able to get on well together. For instance you can intermarry freely. Take for example what Lee cited earlier. The daughter of Mr Chester running married Mr Seymour topping the York Times and they are on very good terms on this point the Chinese are rather conservative. Probably there are not many of the Chinese ice and intermarried with your people. You know in the olden days overseas Chinese not only refuse to intermarry with local people but when one died his coffin was brought back and buried in China. But

now it is not possible for them to send their coffins back. They cannot but change their habits in this way. And the second point is that they may stay abroad for many decades but yet not study the language of their country residents. Maybe this has changed among the younger generation. But as for the older generation I just refused to learn the language of their country of residence. After liberation and old overseas Chinese want to turn from the United States to China he passed away after he surpassed the age of 90 and he lived in the United States for many decades. But he could not speak English. And then another overseas Chinese from Southern Asia from Malaya came back to China. He remained abroad for many decades but yet he could not speak a foreign language well both of them were members of the Central Committee of the Central People's Government. After liberation and I hope that these habits will be changed. A brief exchange ensued on birth control.

We will leave the Chinese translator for a moment to say you know I'm there's no limitation there's no birth control measures. It's in private hands. You know I know. RUN AWAY WITH YOU DOn't YOU DOn't KNOW the government is not advocating you know yourself contraceptives for example the government takes a neutral position in these matters. It lets the government lets every citizen. So abortion is becoming a problem. Here of course we advocate family planning but our increases in amputation are still too high. Our plan is to limit the population increase to about 1 percent in the 70s and if we can make it even lower than 1 percent in the 80s it will be even better. We are able to realize

this goal of about 1 percent like the nation in this bail hearing. But its still difficult to realize in the countryside Ben is doing better in this field and we are a population increase per year is around 1 percent. But of course it's a question of the livelihood of each individual family to our contraceptive pills are all free of charge as of last year. A little later in the conversation premier Joe made an important statement on China and nuclear weapons. A portion of this tape is drowned by room noise. So in parts we will read the transcript without the Premier's voice underneath. You need to listen to them and the countries of the world regardless of their size at all even though we accept that China is a big country in terms of its huge population and also its size. Only the Soviet Union and you are larger in territory but our territory is larger than the United States. Our population has an eye just in the world but while we develop ourselves we will

absolutely not become your power. Say this openly to all of you and to the correspondents as well. We will never be a superpower if our coming generations want to become a superpower than the Canadian Prez opened his eyes in a way saying that you have violated the teaching of Mao Zedong. We are opposed to the power politics of the big powers. You may ask why does China want to produce nuclear weapons will do that to break down the nuclear monopoly to break down the nuclear blackmail we have made it clear that we are only carrying out a limited number of nuclear tests when it is necessary and every time we conduct nuclear tests we conduct them at a time when the wind blows the radioactive dust first over our populated areas before it goes to other countries. What is more we make it clear that the People's Republic of China will never be the first to use nuclear weapons. And every time we make nuclear tests all the countries of the world the heads of government of all the countries of the world sit down at a conference to arrive at an agreement on the complete

prohibition and thorough destruction of all our nuclear weapons. Let's have every step to reach an agreement on the non use of nuclear weapons and putting forth this proposition. Those countries without nuclear weapons expressed their you know those countries with nuclear weapons make no reply and they're still calling for the convening of a conference of five countries which have nuclear weapons. We don't look on ourselves as a big nuclear power. There are more than 2000 Earth satellites circling our globe but China has only two satellites. But we believe the day will surely come when a prohibition on the use of nuclear weapons will be reached and when that day comes you can export a lot of uranium to various parts of the world for the peaceful use of atomic energy. And in this way thermal energy will have greatly increased throughout the world. We not only want to strive to have a peaceful environment for the good of our country but in the world as a whole. We are for withdrawing all foreign military bases from foreign territory. Of course this is a demand which can only be realized with the passage of time

and with making efforts. But China has served as an example in this field. We haven't had one soldier abroad and will absolutely not advocate sending troops abroad. In fact we're against it. The superpower spoke of his visit to the university earlier prompting a lengthy discussion of the effects of the Cultural Revolution. As Mr. Ban speaks tea is being served. Some of the things he said was participation. This is most sure. Great humility and must accept this dialogue with students. He also expressed the view that the students must be close to the to the masses to the people and must be a constant Kate to get through and keep the contact with the whip with the people. Go back to the people once in a while to get to rejuvenate themselves. With the contact

of the masses of the people. But I must say that I'm not totally at ease on this subject because I wonder I wonder how a university a person can become a great scientist a great expert in this field and indulge in this exercise. Going back to the fun or going back to the plant every once in a while. Police in Arabic I know. Well our Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution is now only in its later stages of what you call the struggle of criticism and transformation. That is to say to criticize and repudiate those old practices which are not beneficial to the people. For instance various methods of teaching the teaching programs of the past which are not beneficial to the people at this stage of transformation is only in the preliminary stages. At the same time we don't completely negate the achievements of past 20 years or so in the field of education in China.

After liberation because under the demands of socialism it is our contention that the students and also the teachers trained by our schools and universities since liberation have been serving socialism. But because the educational system remained the old system and its methods the old methods. So education was divorced from socialism divorced from production and was not in the interest of serving the proletariat of linking itself up with protection. And so when the graduates go to factories or to a farm or to some government department they must learn a new Their specialty because their knowledge was confined to the knowledge of books. I do not have any practical experience. Having some arrive at a new experience and not having summarized modern scientific achievements and then of course with regard to their world outlook there is a greater gap. Their world outlook and the demands posed on them. And so this great number of graduates must spend quite some time to get what do we say re-enter society in order to really serve the people.

And that brings about a great waste of time. And that way the period of their youth is wasted. Excellence is aware that the famous inventors and scientists and scholars of the world often did not gain their knowledge in the universities but through their own hard toil. A person's early twenties his youth is the most precious time in his life and yet that period has been wasted in the schools. I don't know if you've met some of the professors in the university I studied in the United States. One professor after coming back from the United States taught in the university for many many years. But he made no new discoveries. He just repeated what he had learned. But now he has gone to the productive units where he had personally taken part in labor neighbor related to his own specialty of course. As for some of them taking part in agricultural production during a cultural revolution that is a matter for training their minds as well as their buddies in the future it will be different so that he takes part in the labors which are related to his own specialty and through this actual

practice he can now realize that there are many new topics which he can teach his students. Why University. They may be upset that I told you this but they can by themselves create their own nuclear reactor. They want to set that deal. You couldn't blame them it's a state secret I can tell it to you. They did not need any help from our department specializing in atomic energy. They did it themselves. It was and so the energy of the professors their students are used in this way and then they made their own discoveries. And in this way they can only say I will write a summary of their experience and it will be a very good thesis. And the students who take part in these things are those whom we get from young workers young peasants young soldiers and young intellectuals who have gone through physical labor and they learn quite rapidly.

So I go and visit the museum the Imperial Palace this morning and I see that everywhere there's a committee a committee representing me representing the workers representing the personnel of the museum or the Imperial Palace and whatnot. How's that all working in practice. What should be the evolution of these things in the future. Some say this is very broad category. You have just asked me how one can develop intellectually in the university under our present circumstances and I mention the very best examples of what you asked was probably this in going to the university you said that so many political activity is there so much physical labor of the professors and students while they are engaged in study at the same time. How is it possible to have so much energy and to do that.

Well as I said this is still in the experimental stage and it is a question of how to allocate the time. For me if I were to reply to this question I might be a rather subjective. That is to say there might be more of a tight schedule for the students and professors but I have had a tight schedule for 50 years now and will continue on. Of course we cannot demand of all our youth to be exactly like ourselves but we must not lose our revolutionary spirit because we advocate the continued revolution in our socialist country. The prime minister said a moment ago China is such a big country. No use talking about centralization of power in Canada. As you know we have a federal system. The prime minister knows very well what the federal system is it is a system by which part is divided between a central government and state. Is China contemplating or is the prime minister himself interested in the idea of federalism for China. At what is the

roll call of the party in the exercise of power in China if possible subject to all the federal system that is found in didn't you just a person or mentally done it isn't done I think. Well China is a modern national setting out one nationality has an overwhelming majority. But whether it be planty leadership or administrative leadership we are dividing authority that is not to centralize all authority in the party Central Committee or the government central government. As for our line and our policy our principle our own political line that is to be centralized. But we are far too limited. That was the initiative of the central authorities and the initiatives of the various localities that is under the leadership of the political line on principle land that the central authorities local authorities have quite a leeway to give place to their initiative and in this way we can break down bureaucracy and

also prevent what we call the capitalist restoration. Because we are a socialist country and this is one of the main achievements of the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution. But the most important thing is to have the broad masses of the people grasp Mozart on the lot that is the principle of Marxism and Leninism for them to grasp it themselves without relying on administrative orders and so the broad masses of the people may exercise supervision over the leadership of the party and over the leadership of the government that is to say we study Marxism Leninism not in an economic way but with a grasp of the broad message of yours where the masses grasp then they present a mighty strength. And then in that case the masses would have the courage to a point of leadership and would have courage to criticize their leaders and of course this movement itself is not yet good at this you may say. But no I am sure they miss the ground being that will be shot. So they shot me for that.

Now I will reply to the question about the government organization it was a most difficult task to take over the government on the basis of the old society 20 years ago exactly Shang-Chi shack was driven out all the old things were left over by him on the mainland. He just took with him about one million and actually got some part of his troops his officers and his bureaucrats. But 8 million troops and officers they were wiped out by us mind you wiped out means some of them were killed in battle but the great majority of them were either taken prisoner or just scattered in society and we must transform these people some of them just went to the factories and countryside to take part in productive labor.