Assembly for Human Rights: Montreal; Science and Technology as Threats

And this was in my dossier here and this is why I was not getting my visa. You never had any idea who reported no and that's where the other disturbing thing is that you don't from there on it was part of the 12 people who in fact wiped his nose on this occasion and went to security but there was incidental. The fact was I didn't know it was there once I knew it was because I just know that explained the first of all it wasn't original It wasn't even original And secondly had to be a statement of fact I think that is that this guy that I got my idea that the thing was that you don't know unless you happen on this crap is what it is. I'm talking I was the position of the individual. Now here you asked me what happens was couldn't be in French it doesn't become knowledge and so on and we can always justify doing something. Now I hear you about the lie detector is a common practice and please please practice not in my country that is America. The lie detector is not a completely reliable instrument for the simple reason the person forgot reasons other than guilt

for getting a false response. But you're all right you're justified no excuse that when it's connected with a criminal. Yes that's a point I was trying to get at whether something that starts out with good and worthy purpose but then you get it then you apply that to a job finding. And you know that it is a legitimate practice and to find out what are they trying to find out. It's finding out things which in fact the person because he doesn't know why they're trying to find out has a good sense about the questions I ask and have the getting the wrong responses. You've got the Polaroid wouldn't it. And what you don't know that the people behind it watching your interview and saw for you have the whole system now of bugging. Well we get to public reaction there because I was home. When you get into the whole area of electronic snooping as it's called The Wire terror letter time snooping at the zoom out zoom in

camera the sort of what I call the YouTube camera which could in fact take pictures of your veges privacy and take pictures of the whole system of the stethoscope pick Mike Mike against the wall picking up what's happening next room the transmitter and the cocktail parties this is all combative recent with miniaturize ocean after all does not become possible during the war a lot of experience of you know I travel abroad and I was I knew my hotel bedrooms all bugged. But you'd find it in there fly apart or you would trust the watch and I was crude stuff and I remember just a thousand years ago as an Belgrade of a nongovernmental conference. Which included it was all energy sources. Duncan's included and those are the scientists from both sides of the curtain.

And. There's a little group of us a copy of the standing around glued a strong cough cough then the head of British atomic and called America including Mel Yanoff USSR and included on the big American Standard and around this little girl who was talking was gyrating the person. I thought I recognized that I have to get and I did recognize one of the American Secret Service men I've known during the war. And I went over the protests and I want my flick to school and so that's a nice try. And there was the microphone underneath. And I wire recorder in his pocket. And I said to him you know what annoys me Pat is how damn bad we treat injured. You know this is crude stuff. And I said anyway who listens to all this you know the miles and miles and miles of plate and how do you manage to say that was done properly because that might have been the saving grace in the whole situation drove me so much undigested material

produced it not very soon or that it was exactly the consolation I offered myself when I started I said this The owner said. Translation I got is I know there's far too much of it and cannot possibly be just that that is no longer true no longer true. You're not other computerized memory you can do or you can code this thing and do it. Total recall for example is a drunk cockroach. Want to know what it was of these dead and I would say that he's been still alive. And you were trying to check up on Kong and then in the course of this year and him you would have a conversation like this. You and I and I forgot a lot in common. You know it we ought to get together I could give you a few tips and then I'd just be talking about growing carnations. But in a different context in a different setting a different different political atmosphere that would be even suggesting that he was committing treason.

Now this is the kind of thing that comes out of this hopper and is terrified in the possibility that we now have the possibilities of introducing For example again you talk about the escaping criminal. So you have a high security risk and crime. All you do is you have put him to sleep in bed somewhere in one you know piece. Transmitter doesn't have to be a powerful one and you can then for now this is said again I just survival thing what happens when you turn this into the whole and every aspect of human life the fact that people are their friends and with Britain as you are an American I think you've got a plan now for centralised. Monster Brown embodying all the information and about 22 government departments in isolation and they go

beyond Social Security. It's income tax where you like the police records for that and in the end discrete and scattered things. And from that point if you who gets access to it this is quite safe but it's not it's not reprehensible. But you bring all that intelligence together and everything that you learn get a completely different profile of a human being. If you find out the things that in conjunction make make it appear as though it was this or that and next thing. But in point of fact in disparate she wasn't the jumble of the conjunction of thing and the other thing which I think is target as it is. And this of course is not become so accepted everywhere including your credit cards and everything you know. Is what I call the amnesty easier stat.. Which were just forgotten.

We've just become for and against don't know who's there. But about beyond that the anonymity of the computer you just become a number. And very much as we know 1 2 9 9 3 5. To my bank manager's brother get a letter from him saying dear sir unless. But. I object to that because this in fact is got all the sinister significance and plus it since the difference of the Belsen camp the tattooed number the anonymity of the disappeared person we just disappeared into the computer. Problem goes into the private sector it was the government everything. I mean the point is that it will have no proper served I was never but it promises the same. But if you have no proper server as against access to that information. Then you're putting yourself in a position in which the your

private life which has got nothing to do with anyone. There are sectors your private life which is certainly not got anything to do in conjunction with anything else. Become. Or part of one star is your bank manager finds out you know what your political affiliations are. You know this kind of thing. And this to me is frightening because it's frightening because it's overtaking us it's insidious is accepted and every time you know you let a thing go it becomes recognised adopted. This is certainly a very frightening picture that you paint virtually larger She called it what's to be done about it. What's the prescription I think most of us haven't personally felt the pressure of this kind of espionage as you might call it our dossier keeping. We have assumed that this information will be gathered and perhaps kept on file

somewhere. But you obviously feel that the situation is getting worse and it could become a very great group that is very small very gross threat to human rights and the point is that they say everyone has a got a right to own personality even throughout and it is indiscretions. The only time when that and here again is highly highly debatable what in fact is the relationship of the human being to the state where those activities are supposed to be subversive and find effective only inconvenient to the government a particular moment of time and so on. But if you get yourself as you are if you get a ticket as it were as a suspect your suspect the rest of your life and the circumstances in which you gave your fingerprints of this of course I know my record to figure bones of my bacon seriously but this is still a very important thing.

In Britain we do not give our fingerprints in the script. But this happens in a part of our private identity until we become involved with it with the state for some reason or rather whether and I case I suppose my first time my fingerprints are ever taken. When I went into a security job. But the problem now in Scotland Yard and to me was a part of my you know pseudo criminal record and I mean this is rather frightening. Now you're going to do anything about it what we've got to do is to set up a convention of defining what in fact are the limits of public intrusion into private life in this way. Now the various gods and I want to looking for say I don't believe you can stop the presses. But you better look for the same guy. So you've got to build it into the protection of the individual the Nama access to irrelevant information. My bank

manager should know what my political career. Although I probably sign my checks to my party anyway whether you know what I mean what they're doing is that this is not part of the. The public gossip. And that was Lord Ritchie Calder widely known science writer from Edinburgh Scotland. Now turning to mar general human rights challenges we bring you an interview with the speaker heard during a human rights Assembly session in an address presented during our last report from Montreal. We'll hear about the speaker's professional organization the International Commission of Jurists and other aspects of his personal outlook on human rights. Here is Mr. Shawn McBride who is secretary general of the International Commission of Jurists in Geneva Switzerland. Mr. McBride along with Mr. Leslie PAF rat serves as cochairman for the assembly for human rights in Montreal. Well I'm not sure Mr. McBride that everyone is familiar

with your organization the International Commission of Jurists. Just what is it. Well it is an international organization of lawyers possibly faulty 5000 laws 12 called the Spalding who worked closely with us many of the more international sanctions in the world from please. We have national sanctions robust 40 countries. In many areas of the world the Jews lawyers are probably the only teen people who are capable of helping in the making of laws and also in advising governments. As where I was defending and protecting human liberty by nature the function of a lawyer is to protect the

physical intellectually. I'm modeling take the TV off people just in the same way as a doctor function is to protect their physical well-being. Long lives and so on. So in the case of laws laws task is leading to ask when a duty is legally to defend their intake of data physical model integrity as the International Commission of Jurists ever get involved in what you might call crusades to try to remedy certain human rights deficiencies around the world. Well indeed we do indeed. That is main task. That form this effort to develop a sense of social responsibility among Loyce what a word. We go from there right into the petal field. We have first of all to try and ensure that the rule of law that the laws are properly applied in different policy will work

to do that we have to help to educate and train lawyers in you know over their years we have to fight against injustice but be a specific example Mr. McBride specific examples. We have had to prepare investigate situations in South Africa for instance in Spain Portugal and to bed in Hungary. Don't put it where all over the world when you say you investigated situations are what sort of situations situations in which there was a systematic deprivation tool of law to smash breaches of human rights. Then from that phone and investigating situations will often have to intervene by sending observers to attend. For instance recently you probably knew where there was a cloud of

large number of software South Africans who should have made it a test of United Nations being tied in South Africa and we had sent an observer that we had to take action at the United Nations we had to take actions that would world to focus attention to what was going on. The laws in South Africa are absolutely appalling from any standards. For men ascended it looked at. We've heard for instance increase recently to intervene very actively to try and secure the application of law and we've had lodged complaints with council of you look. So that comes through put take some action regardless situation in Greece. Recently you've probably seen the one number vitals. But this isn't just the Soviet Union. The feds take up these

cases as well. Would DIJO we've had to intervene recently in connection with the number of men with a skewed and so ongoing view of the situation is pretty pretty difficult and we seem to have more and more problems. Do you expect to exert influence through an educational approach. Are you trying to bring some actual pressure to bear or are you aiming at results here and now. Both Naturally we have to push it on education basis first from a longtime point of view hoping to educate world public opinion lawyers judges governments into applying certain minimum norms. But quite apart from that which we try to achieve image results and attended it was UPS. Sometimes we intervene directly with the government. Discussing clubs a little bit with governments and sometimes we're quite successful. We do address space fairly quietly usually that

we do in substantial results. What would you say is the most fruitful action that you've been able to undertake or that to bring about. Well a number of cases we've been able to get was was the least we've been able to have minimal cleaved to since the sentence of death. We've been over cases we've been able to get action taken at United Nations to deal with particular cases. Does your organization have a close relationship with the United Nations. We work very closely with nation you're in United Nations. We do work for them on occasions investigations on the other hand we also try to activate United Nations into a more active policy in the Gulf for protection for human rights. How is the International Commission of Jurists supported financially and what sort of

Staff machinery Do you have. We have our headquarters in Geneva. We publish regular publications which is published in four languages in our bulletin which publish four times a year also in four languages. We draw off financial support from laws or rules editions Waterworld from foundations of donations which will see from individuals legacies occasionally says our publications. We do get the vast bulk of our support fall on America. We found out as much. All they did was sponsor. Peace was kind in America's AND IT industry work we did for little kids. Now up here we are at an assembly for human rights in Montreal. What sort of results would you like to see come from this conference would you like to see some very strong resolutions come out of it stronger solutions

new. We would like to see practical proposals that are capable of being adopted by governments and we would like to see follow to action afterwards that would ensure that these proposals are adopted by governments. It is as you probably notice international conference convened by Asian nation nations taking place next month in jail then we hope that coming from discomforts in Montreal the problem of the long governmental sector if we can put into this conference a set of concrete proposals that have a chance of being adopted. On the other hand we also hope that this assembly here in Montreal will be able to produce a document to help to create a stronger public opinion in support of human lives. When the world is today six a

century to have public opinion would you. Because governments were legal sponte to pressure from public opinion and the whole we hope that this assembly would serve to weaken public be in the world and read newspapers. This mess media of communication will be able to gain from DLs us for disassembly concrete function. Provided you look over the world do you think of human rights problems as being of particular intensity in certain areas. I suppose you think of human rights you think of someplace like South Africa and some of the adjoining countries in that region of the world is it something that can be localized. Or do you feel that everybody should look into his own backyard so to speak. A view of what it should look into his own backyard I think his own country to live hasn't got some humanized Bob. One can't love but of course that is what we

call Dia is a message of violation of human rights like the whole southern part of the African continent. But you have South Africa's South West Africa Angola Mozambique Portuguese Guinea and so on where you have a message validations Dady resistant but ations was acting from the opposite hypothesis. Letting food affected anybody it hasn't got a white skin is denied political civil and social lights. So that's a massive violation of human lights. You have other areas where you have what I would call. I talk about temper but mass violations as you had in Indonesia recently. But he's like Yeovil when possible 600000 people were massacred assessor's you have a moment when says NATO you were all sort of been

extensive killings of people innocent people. He would then have possessed infringements of human rights of a lesser degree but never less resistant. In countries like Spain Portugal and in Eastern Europe for instance when they got to freedom of expression freedom of association. You have been also what I hope always temper situations as you have in Greece with military coupe of governments to global power and procedure overnight to remove all petitions against violations of human rights and as a result of military leaders who have promised to have elections and I suppose it remains to be seen as humans we see most of them while they have two and a half thousand people in prisons. Lawyers Doctors university people to raft also in prison in extreme drought conditions in the world resulted to

absolutely indefensible methods in dealing with them. How would you see any human rights problem Vietnam. Do allow human rights many indeed many human rights problems in Vietnam on both sides. Recently you may have seen other photographs publicize that would a world of gentle caring and. There's a wall that's a human rights problem indicates a violation of the normal standards applied. You have certain areas you have apparently going in and Meschini but it is supported the Saigon government. There you have mess of additional human rights you have to morsel from of fortune. This is they see it as a problem Bob and I hope we may be able to deal with the discomfort Stritch team which lost an early convention. The do use wood Mrs. Wolff l use the Hague Convention of 1900 and

7 at that time to little airplanes there were no dummy weapons chemical substances that were used in all of the year that courses on was occasion called for when you conventionally the should be a new conference of governments of agree on the nonuse utilization of certain Mrs. Wolff. I was going to do so if I haven't responded to that I was going to ask you Mr. McBride what improvements you think or do about now in 1968 that famous Declaration of Human Rights which was adopted 20 years ago in the United Nations. It was a new improvements needed in the Universal Declaration of Universal Declaration Benda document. They clear the detailed statement of the rights to which human beings are entitled. What is missing is implementation machinery. Something less use having the

right declared on this that is somewhere in force the ideals are set forth clearly as yet quite what you would like some. We need implementation machinery we need to ensure that the governments nations of world will agree to give effect to the principles to which they keep themselves. That was awful sleep it was what was observed. There must be. Make an ism whereby a person who says I simply can't have a course to illegal drug addiction we should ensure that he can obtain protection of his life is not going to be quite an uphill task to get nations to sacrifice that much of their national sovereignty. Of course it is but remember we did this in Europe the European Convention of Human Rights signed by 18 European nations which are among the most sudden to count the subtlety of conscious nations in the

world. If I wouldn't have voices on the other side or they know I'm not. But Peter TT's 18 with Snoopy Nish uncivilly suckled a conscience. They've never given up and I will talk to someone today. The fourth wars offer wars in order to maintain our sovereignty but they have come to a point of legalising to there had to be some international machinery for the relation if human rights and according to the read on the setting up of a commission for human rights and of course human rights and most of them have decreed to give their wants is also the right to appeal to this court. No words divied to an international court to supervise the operation of those leading human rights in that particular portion of the work. And if t's same deal 80 nations should almost amounted to was just seventy conscious Nations and would have agreed to do it as we hope it may be possible to get a

little of a nations there are discussions at the moment for similar convention in Latin America and one in Africa and of one nation we whole casually to spread this concept and to have a whole series of regional conventions with pleasure if you will rise with legion of tribunals. I'll to mature to have a universal court so that there would be a system of the deed whereby a person who's human I simply changed is able to proceed to his domestic courts if the domestic courts do not like to fight the position and will see to a legion court and ultimately to universal court. That was Mr. Shawn McBride of the International Commission of Jurists at Geneva Switzerland. We'll continue this report from Montreal on our next program. There's somebody for human rights a private sector conference attended

by 80 delegates and observers from all parts of the world took place during the last week in March. It was supported by the Johnson Foundation of Racine Wisconsin and a group of other philanthropic organizations. This program was produced by Don vaguely and your narrator Roy Vogelman at the Wisconsin state broadcasting service studios on the University of Wisconsin campus in Madison. This is the national educational radio network.