Tender twigs; That which divides, destroys

His education informs the common mind. Just as the twig is bent the tree's inclined. Iraqi. This is serious the tender twigs proposes to bring together those best able to address themselves to the individual and social problems of youth in the 20th century. It proposes to discuss a few of the most clearly recognized problems of our time. Mental health. Delinquency crime social pressures and human growth. And the practical steps that parents school community and church may take. In order to ensure youth development that is safe. Sane and straight. The tender twigs is produced and recorded by W. K. R.

radio at Michigan State University under a grant from the Educational Television and Radio Center in cooperation with the National Association of educational broadcasters. The tender twigs are youth the task to help them grow safe sane and straight. The title of this program that which divides destroys this program features a single guest. Each week we present a distinguished person who we feel has left a mark on our time by his thought and by his work. As it relates to our youth our guest Robert H Scott is assistant director in charge of the US division with the Michigan Department of Corrections. Our interview up for this series is Ben Thompson Research sociologist. Also with the Michigan Department of Corrections Mr. Scott in order to begin I ask you to set the stage for us

in terms of what you feel the mood is for you. You know our time. While inevitably a ban. When you think of mood or I do it seems to me that. One has to be impressed by the sense of loneliness and confusion which plagues all of us but which in particular plagues our you. Now this loneliness and confusion is compound of many causes. You have the different kinds of conflicts that confront us today. You have differences in ideological philosophies. You have a world shaking movements of men on the march. You have cold wars and rumors of hot wars. You have changing times. You have all of the questions of economic pressures and the new mood of scientism which seems to be

sweeping over our nation and our world today. All of these challenges each of us but in particular it seems to me they confront and challenge are you. Do you have any reaction to the to the way youth is reacting to this mood. Are they being coming engulfed in this mood. Well it seems to me that their reaction is one of rebellion and confusion. After all most of us grow and learn pretty largely by a process of imitation. We have held before us the values the concepts the acts of our elders and much of our earlier stages of learning. Take the form of imitation of those acts those values. However there comes a point in the transition of each of us where we are called upon one way or another to make these our own.

In an age of consistency the difficulties are not so great. In an age of inconsistency when so much and so many of these older values are threatened to the person who wants to make up his own mind about these the process is no longer simple and the result very frequently is a sharp struggle sharp conflict as he tries to choose for himself. And certainly with the increasing population pressure of our time and the things which you have already mentioned along with the problems of early marriage and divorce and the need of for very skilled people to operate our industries and our scientism as you called it of our time and highly mobile population all of these things contributing I suppose to this loneliness and this questioning that use appears to most of us at least to have that

are at this moment in time. I wonder where does this lead the individual as as an individual as he begins to try to sort out these kinds of problems what course may take in order to solve them. There seem to me to be three possible choices. The first of course is conformity. The second is confusion. The third is conflicts and into each of them. One of those three are growing use of eventually take their turn. I know that you're the father of three teenaged children. How do you find the east true of your own in terms of their questions of conformity conforming to the group and its norms. Well this hits very close to home of course quite literally. I've heard it said that the children of an earlier age emphasize the pleasing of the

parent and the forefather it has. Today however the attempt is rather to please the peer. This is something that I can attest to from my personal observations so far as accuracy is concerned. I'm quite certain that sociologists and psychologists down the line in America as I have observed you will agree a great need to conform to the group norm whether it be in dress or speech or how you spend your money or when you begin to date all of these things which plague the youngster is he or she grows up in this time. Make life considerably more difficult maybe than it was in an earlier generation where the choices were as you indicated I think more clear. This brings us I suppose to the most practical question and the question really for which this program is designed and generally it is simply what can we do. And we might be a parent. It might be a youth listening to this

series it might be for yourself or for me. But what can we do. Well the answer that I would attempt to give to a question is a little bit long and involved I hope you'll bear with me. But remember I said a few moments ago that the two twin problems appeared to me to be loneliness and confusion. Now in our attempt to meet half of this problem that is loneliness I think you'll find our age characterized by a sense of false community to a degree that it has seldom seen before. You can make a long list of all the kinds of efforts that we struggle with in various ways to create a sense of community with each other. But in all of this our own voices sound pretty hollow to us sometimes. We don't really speak

with other people. We speak to them or what is worse we even speak past them. We sing lots of songs about them are we get together the more we get together the happier we'll be. But somehow I don't really sound very true or very real to it. I think folks who belong to various kinds of social organizations and fraternal organizations recognize this problem quite distinctly. I sometimes think that this kind of singing is too often a whistling in the dark sort of thing. Now so much for the lonely loneliness side of it so far as the confusion part is concerned. This is the inevitable result of conflicting values when we must choose between two things neither of which is particularly clear to us or both of which may have some inviting qualities for us. This creates conflict. This creates a sense of confusion with our mind within our minds as to which of the two we will choose. And.

You have just given us a very good inventory of some very typical social problems which each of us has to face. To this of course might be added one more that I think bothers our youth of today and that is the question of our military service. When should we do it. For how long. Under what circumstances. All of this creates considerable problems so far as career choice is concerned. And small wonder that in the face of all of these things we hear that one of our paramount drives today is security and it's not to be wondered at that in the face of this conflict and confusion we would like to have certainty freedom from doubt. Clarity. I know that you have worked quite successfully with young offenders young men who have violated the penal code and have spent time in a correctional institution. What are some of the kinds of things that you have found there that we actually can do

to help these individuals I might actually ask some of the reasons why you feel in line with what youve been saying. They come to a correctional institution to begin with. When we spoke of three drives or three choices a minute ago all conformity confusion conflict for the individual who conforms or adjusts whatever his internal problems may be. He has certainly come to acceptable terms with society so that it would be fair to assume for just a moment that the people who do not get along with society are those who have made the other two choices. That is who find themselves either in a state of confusion or if you please in a state of conflict. And these two qualities why you cannot. Be Too general about it I suppose. Nevertheless represent two kinds of categories into which most of our offenders would fall.

Now getting to the treatment side of your question for just a moment. Perhaps you could tell me whether you were thinking of more of our preventive kind of work or you thinking more of our treatment kind of work. Well and actually at the moment I'm thinking of both because I think the need as far as this program is concerned is to try to give any clues that we might have concerning prevention we hear a lot about Delinquency Prevention these days and also the specific kind of measures that are being taken for those who actually have run afoul of the law. And I think we could widen this out and I think this carries into alcoholism and mental illness and. A lot of the aspects of our society to say nothing of such generalized things as prejudice their race by get is a problem that we're facing and I don't but at the moment I was localizing it just in terms of prevention or treatment for the offender. Well let's pick it up then at the point of view of the point rather prevention.

And see how we can do something about this. Early preliminary phase of the problem. As you know a great deal of thought is being given these days to community coordination for the Prevention of Crime and Delinquency. Now this is not to suggest that everybody has all the answers about these twin problems of our day but it is to say that like many of our physical illnesses much is known. And could we but identified these problems at a sufficiently early age and mobilize our resources far enough back along the line we could do far more of a preventive job than has always been possible in the past and you will find a considerable trend throughout our nation at the federal level at the state level and perhaps most important of all at the level of the local community whereby concern

and informed people are getting their heads together are saying let's take a look at the problem as it exists in our town our state our nation and with particular reference to the town. They're saying what kinds of services are needed so that we can do a better job of early treatment and how can we do a more specific and more effective job of the identification of the pre delinquent or going back even further not necessarily one who is pretty delinquent at all but the observance of tendencies within an individual which if properly directed properly trained can result in a fuller satisfying life for him but which if Mr. directives contain within them the seeds of problems and difficulties. Therefore much of what is done here can be summed up rather briefly

under the head of concerned informed people sitting down around the table and getting a look. But peculiarly at the local level of the problem as it exists in our community. Yours and mine. And then seeing what contribution can be made by various professions teaching law enforcement social work character building agencies of various kind in order to reach out find the youngster who somehow has been missed in the process of normal growth and development. Involve him in the normal process of growing up along acceptable and satisfying lines doing a job a first aid and repair for those who seem to be casualties or victims of this process and by early action effective action strengthening our resources. We can begin to do a much more effective and incidentally much less

expensive job of first aid on the firing line. And in terms of time do you feel that there is a particular kind of age or is there any kind of observable evidence that says we are now beginning to attack the problem earlier or is there evidence to say that we should be beginning at even an earlier time than we are. What's the status of our attempt at the moment. Well some very excellent studies have been made notably those by Sheldon and Eleanor Glenn that have been written up in a number of volumes. The first one of which that occurs to me is a very interesting and informative one entitled unraveling juvenile delinquency and their finding is that by far the greater number of youngsters who get into serious difficulty have committed acts or engaged in conduct which

should have been identified before. Let us say the 11th birthday. Does that speak to your question other words we need to begin very early. We're not talking about. Sometimes I think perhaps we think of the youngster in trouble as a 16 17 or 18 year old or when really if we do a true job prevention perhaps it must begin even earlier than that right. Generally the youngster in trouble has at some point before that been the youngster in difficulty and the signs are there. Of course in speaking about this you have to bear in mind a factor which needs to be emphasized at this point and that is all of us see all kinds of behavior in our own children for example which can be very alarming if we are going to put it on the terms of that that every difficulty is a sign of future trouble. You and I and lots of other parents know that this simply is not the case. But just as we take care of the normal diet of our children when we see them begin to lose a little

weight or we build up their vitamins when we see that their general resistance is a little low this is the kind of preventive medicine in crime in the link and say that I'm talking about. Maybe the best therapy for the parent might be don't get too concerned but begin to think constructively and begin to ask questions of people who might know. If you do have some kind of a problem you know I think a good word to our parents and to ourselves us as parents is let's not panic the parents. I'm reminded of something that Dr. Albert Cowen said on this same series. If you weeks ago when he commented about the development of delinquency itself as a development of a subculture you talked a moment ago about confusion and conflict. And he points out so admirably and his in his book delinquent boy that out of confusion and conflict and rejection. Actually comes

the development of a subcultural group. This is the boy's means of becoming a part of an ongoing organisation even though it's a delinquent one. This was his answer to his confusion and his conflict so that he found other people who had the same confusions in the same conflict and became one of them. And therefore in a way really saved himself. Not for the better we know but perhaps at least for the more treatable in the long run. What are some of the other things that you have seen from the treatment point of view within our institutions as you have worked with with young offenders. Well before we leave the basic prevention aspect of the thing I would like to mention one of the newer and more distinctive movements that seem to hold a great deal of promise. We spoke for a few moments ago about the work of our character building agencies. The church Garson the school and the family as the formative agencies. But as you know

many children kind of fall through the spaces in the nets are somehow not reached by the undergirding process for normal growth and development of these and these very largely are the ones who drift off into this kind of delinquent subculture that Dr. Cohen was speaking about. And there has been a very recent and in my judgment a very effective movement to reach the unreached or the hard to reach and the social worker. Instead of sitting in his or her office and waiting for the client to come to him to day goes out and makes friends with the kid whose behavior on the street may be a little bit alarming and attempts through gaining their confidence to redirect these associations these activities which in themselves are perfectly natural into satisfying and acceptable kinds of behavior. And this is one of the most promising signs I think upon the horizon

of preventive treatment today. Actually in a way it should give us all faith I suppose in that these folks who are working with the groups actually are quite successful. Yes they do the thing that most of us have a tendency to feel can't be done. Yes the common person says it. You can't reach this child and he doesn't want to be reached he can't be reached. And yet we find people who are doing it. Yes I think they remind us of the effectiveness of the common touch of the reality and the value of things that most of us have been doing all our lives and which somehow we feel a little timid or frightened about. And these really do work if you work at them. May I ask for an enlargement of this common touch idea. I think this is important. If I if I understand what you're meaning. Yes this perhaps I might illustrate this by answering a question that you asked earlier namely the problems of alcoholism.

Now as most people today know alcoholism was at one time regarded as a virtually incurable disease only a small percentage of people could be helped by mental health techniques. Perhaps similar voluntary treatments but these were only a tragic portion of the number of people who were hit by this terrific problem. But what happened. A group of people who themselves suffered from the problem who were motivated by a religious faith who wanted to make this religious faith a dynamic answer to their desperation. I reached out in that desperation from the end of their rope to find that their call for help was answered. And in the process they realized that what they had found for themselves according to the

best insights of all of our religious faiths cannot be kept but must be given away. And so they reached out into the lives of other alcoholics and through sharing their difficulties through the process of group therapy group discussion. Together they found an answer to the problems of alcoholism to a degree which although learned professions of our time had never been able to find before. This is the common touch of faith in fellowship if you please particularly applied to a particular problem which to me is a tremendously reassuring thing and perhaps we should be remain reminded that it was once said that a little child shall lead them. You're taking him back to my own childhood now as my father quite often emphasized an expression which said The only thing that you can take with you is that which you have given away her. Your father was right and

we've been talking generally to the thing that that which divides and destroys and we have talked about those things which are actually dividing people and young people particularly. And it's not exclusively young people of course is the recent book The Organisation Man will testify. And many of the works of Robert Lenzner and Erich Fromm and others in this this same area what can we do. What is the position that a parent must take with or without a delinquent child. How should he feel. What might he say. How can he live the kind of expression that says to the youngster all will be well. While I'm not sure of your question whether you're speaking of the parent who has a child or who has not but I'm not so sure that it makes a great deal of difference in

either event. I think the worst first words we should speak to any child and we should feel them before we speak them is a word of reassurance. That is I like you. I believe in you. I think you will be a pretty great person someday and in the meantime I am certainly going to walk along with you on the road to that success. And to that greatness that's putting it perhaps in its most positive terms to put it for a moment in negative terms but I think to say the same thing is to show to that youngster you're not mad at him. You don't reject him. You don't hate him. You're not a part of the forces in the world that are against him and against which he is in rebellion. I think in other words a mood of acceptance. Which doesn't of course mean that you have to accept his

behavior doesn't mean I say you have to go along with breaking windows there are a whole variety of other unpleasant or delinquent acts. But it does mean to say that you look beyond these acts to the fact that he is a person and that you like him as a person and that you accept him as a person. Our guest has been Robert H Scott assistant director in charge of the US division Michigan Department of Corrections. Next week a hand of help. Our guest will be Mark Beach program director of the MacGregor foundation. You have been listening to the tender twigs a series devoted to ensuring youth development that is safe sane and straight. We invite you to join us next week at this time by the 10 to 20.

Our interviewer was Ben Thompson. Research sociologist by the state of Michigan was the Bachman of Corrections. The tender twigs was produced and recorded by Wayne C. Wayne for WKRN radio at Michigan State University under a grant from the Educational Television and Radio Center. And is being distributed by the National Association of educational broadcasters. This is the end E.B. Radio Network.