The World of Education; #10 A Comprehensive Tutoring Project and #11 Learning to Conduct

The world of education and in the studios of the BBC in London. This is Andrew Sackey at large comprehensive school in London. A group of sixth formers has just completed a three week tutoring project. It's the first of its kind in Britain so I went along to meet the two teachers who directed the project. John Ralph and Kate Myers and three of the 16 year old sixth formers involved in the experiment Steven Pappas are Sally Starkman and Patricia Burton. I began our conversation by asking the project director John Rolfe what exactly is a project in educational terms in educational terms a project is the use of a real experience rather than an academic experience or an experience which uses books and words where you take real people and real conditions real problems and attempt to get solutions to those real problems in a natural way. Have a store comprehensive school project was actually taken outside the school and I'd like now to

turn to miscreate miles to find out just what this particular project was all about. Well we started with students who had finished public examinations and this meant they had three weeks before the end of the term and we used them to go into our local primary schools to have five local primary schools and they went in and did various activities things they did spend it on the school they were in and depended on that particular time it was their effort actually considered teaching. No. Certainly not. Just to give to give anything that they have interest save as well. They found that they benefited a lot with contact with little kids. How old were they they range from infants to Junior as of 11 years old. In general led teachers welcome the scheme. They realize the smaller children would benefit from the contact with let's say older children all of course in our view we are in fact dealing with young men and young women.

Each individual as we call them each tutor has to think about the project before the younger child in advance the preparation of what is to be done. The preparation of the materials with which it is to be done and ensuring that there is enough information of resource there to cover the whole activity. Because young children. Rapidly will show you if they get bored. They must have enough to interest them all the time and the preparation work is the biggest part I think. These three would agree the biggest part of the actual work content of what they do Miss Miles. Were you anywhere near the three cutis as we are now calling Stephen Sally intrusion Were you there to help them in total were they on their own. Yes no we all have them. Everybody that was involved in this project met on a Monday afternoon for the whole afternoon every week and discuss what theyd done the previous week and planned next week. They exchanged ideas and discussed discos and so on. And sure in the week I visited every school and I saw everybody while they were in session in the schools.

So if anybody had had any problems or are unhappy about anything I would have been there to talk to them about it. In fact this didn't happen and I was very encouraged in going around schools generally speaking how did you all feel. After all you're very young you're not very much older than those that you were helping. Did you feel any kind of blocked embarrassment or you feel shy. Sure yes. Seeing these children sitting there looking I thought I'm going to get a heck of a lot of question fired at me once. I just over that it was fine. What about their own class teachers were they out of the way over there they're present in the classroom. They were trying to make themselves in conspicuous one side trying to see if you've done anything wrong with political so with young punk. Our kids never took over the whole class so the class teachers were always there they were only involved either with a small group of children or with individual children. They might have taught academic subjects but not in the way that the teacher would be expected to teach them. They devise games and thought

up other ways to get over things if they were doing reading or writing they'd have a game in which the kid would have to write something in order to move on the game. Can anybody here give me an example of that kind of game that you had to devise while you were on the project to sort things out to make for the inference was drawn to pitches and start the first word of an animal and could finish it. We score very well and I will try to draw pictures for me to answer. And so it was very cool. They made the project very much their own it's become part of them their own personality their own development. Part of our own idea from the point of view of the tutor's is that it is a step in development of a real sort of maturity and B it is also the development of the state of being a responsible citizen. So each young person will be aware very aware of the educational situation around them so that when they become a member of the

community they will be able to talk with some sense and some knowledge of the educational situation both in the secondary and the primary school. I want to talk to you again Steven Sally and Patricia what kind of benefits do you think that you really had from this particular experiment this particular project now on how to handle children before. One little nephew anything you want to describe it to me what it really listened to. But now they're often going to sing for the school which is of really benefited from I know how to treat him if he needs anything I'll just listen to you. Brother Bryant primary school never take much notice of his work talk but now see how they work the schools enough so that he needs help as well. Now I've heard Patricia that you're on your way to India with your family to live and I know that this particular school is famous in London for its multi-racial population and the harmony here and so on with this particular project. Do you think that you might

be looking at in a different way than let's say had you gone there without the experience of the project. Well since I've been doing this project I've got more interest in children and I wouldn't mind doing some social work the children in India. I could use for the letters I can understand children I've gained some experience from that. Do you feel you can understand teachers better now as well. That's a fair question. Yes I think so I think I can understand the difficulties he had to go through. To organize work and everything to children because you got to get him interested in something. Things don't work if I'm not interested. How do you manage to hold their interest. Incidentally because this is this is very very difficult. It was the first time I just talked to them and asked them questions and they was willing to talk. I just wanted to talk all the time. Just into what is just seem to like the questions we talk about things they wish we didn't seem to

affirm very interests I mean the man while trying to become look at education as well. And. Are going very well. And by doing that. I found little to crimes of like supply chain Symington which cation. So holding the interest of the younger children there is a peculiar fact that a little child will listen to an older child much more readily than he will to an adult. Also the young child will almost expect an adult to be good at mathematics good English able to read able to play the piano. And when an older child is good at mathematics etc. The younger child is much more impressed. It's a much much more real experience for him. Man I would turn to Steven Salim producer and ask whether those words are really true do they really work out in that way in the classroom situation did you find for example that there was a greater tolerance where you were concerned.

No no no no. Did you have to fend for yourself than you have no sympathy at all coming from the other side because you were young now and then you could ask did the children take you by the hand. Yeah. Did they take their teacher by them. Now that's what I mean. I mean the children will hold your hand will listen to you call you by your first name will wait for you will want you to be there and it's that kind of immediate response that I meant. Whereas they will treat a teacher as a some of the slight stranger you know you're using in a fund that they started to call me miss when I first went there so I tell them to call me pat my first name you know because to be better and they seem to accept it more you know. So I did the boys expect you Stephen to be the sort of sportsman par excellence but that is just what I did think the moment I stepped into the school the first thing I was going for football it was a nice English that I grant. Local was

cited. But after a call from a cop with a cane will start again. I'd like to add that as well as the fact that our kids were easily identified with the little kids because they are still children. On the other hand they were identified by members of staff as adults and this was very good for them they were accepted in staff rooms and they were taught to as equals. This did all of them an enormous amount. And sometimes as a cause sometimes the superiors because in fact in one school where music was taught by a teacher who was proficient in the guitar only and we sent a pupil in who was a professional pianist and oboist then from the staff point of view. In fact our pupils were treated in some ways as superiors as they were in fact in certain talents not perhaps in maturity but certain talents. The project you see is an experiment in initiative also and it is not our task at all not our function in this project to tell our tutors what to do but to ensure the tutors feel

enough confidence. To be able to initiate their own work schemes and to carry them through in their own way. Can we now tie this up to where you were you let a number of children out of your own school into other schools. There was a certain kind of interaction certain experiences gained and so on but there was more interaction than we've mentioned we haven't in fact talked about the fact that a lot of our children brought small parties from the primary school they were in back into our own school. Some of them were brought back in parties and just looked over the building and got familiar with was a large comprehensive school looks like. Others of them came in to use specialised facilities in the school. For example a small group would go into the pottery room with our tutors and would use Kali and they made some items in this fight and they took these back to their primary schools another group worked in the woodwork room and made themselves bookcases. Other groups have used the house crafts facilities and have coped only with their tutors they haven't really used the members of staff apart from his supervisors in the room.

Yes it is true the interaction between five primary schools and one secondary school has been quite tremendous and it's been on a number of different levels. It has been on staff level it's been on pupil level and ultimately one hopes it will also be on parent level where the whole community is involved in looking at the overall education of our children are smart as well. The primary school children have benefited because it's been good for them too. First of all have a relationship with an older child and secondly to come into such a big school and find their bearings even if they don't end up at this school in sounds. I think everybody remembers what their first day at a secondary school was not it's quite horrific particularly if you are in a school with three or four buildings and the children five times your size walking around where they've got to know this they've got to know what's inside the school. I'm sure who how when they transfer was the wrong.

We must make this clear. This three week scheme is only a pilot scheme. We have used and very convenient time when examinations are finished and sometimes senior pupils are a bit at a loss as to what to do. We've used this as a pilot scheme because we intend in the future to structure this right into the curriculum. We want our senior pupils to become far more involved in the educational ideas of the community. We want them to become aware of the problems and aware of the solutions that they themselves can achieve. We want the senior pupils to be committed with the younger ones or with their families to the whole idea of the benefits of education can read for them and for the whole of society. Project director John Rolfe summing up his views on learning by teaching for sixth formers. And this is Andrew strategy in the studios of the BBC in London. This was the world of education.

This programme was distributed by National Public Radio. The world of education and in the studios of the BBC in London this is Terence Kelly. Learning to conduct. Life being so they. Told me to do it.

All the year round in Britain local authorities organize evening classes for students of all ages in a huge variety of subjects. Many of them are to do with music and I've just been to one of the most unusual of these run by the Inner London Education Authority a six week course for amateur musicians who want to learn to conduct for three evenings a week. They study musical scores and practice conducting them part of the time they're working with a full symphony orchestra. But to prepare for this they go to a classroom for one of the evenings. What each student takes his turn with the baton under the instructor's eye. Two or three other students volunteer to play the orchestral parts on the piano to give a rough idea of how the orchestra would react to his beat. I met first of all the director of the course Brian Fairfax himself principal conductor of the London orchestra

conducting courses is mainly an art of communication through gesture. And what we're trying to do here is to help students in that way. And we want to find the students who understand this point and really want to help in that direction. Now what do you get them to do or how do you put over this message about communicating through gesture. We have started of course in the beginning by analyzing what we were there to do which is of course is to wade through the air as you might say in a certain pattern the familiar triangle shape for three in a bar. The box like shape or form a bar. This is just sort of very elementary analysis of the beat. And then trying to get the students to get the shape of the beat properly. There are all sorts of things like some students who might be a little bit round shouldered or they stand with their legs in a rather bad position or their arms need to be tucked into their waists in a very awkward way so it prevents them from getting the beat flowing smoothly and clearly. And having analyzed these little disadvantages that might be peculiar to any one particular student

with then can start to go ahead and get a nicely shaped beat. This is what we do the very beginning. And we have all these things to the various movements of symphonies over two years which we're taking. And during the course of six weeks we gradually combine this with of course the more artistic expression and interpretation of the work built around the basic requirement of getting that beat clear and proper shaped. You know there are certain things about conducting where in fact it could really only be adequately dealt with in some years. Are there certain parts particularly regard to interpretation where a student must read must study not only the musical scores but they must read biographies of composers. They must reconstruct the social and political time in which the work was written so that they can understand or work very deeply I think one of the most interesting things that I've heard said about conducting was something that boat said to me of course to me.

The conductor's that the most valuable thing. Person conductor can have is a good wife. Or a good husband if it happens to be a lady. You know somebody who knows you well and doesn't have to guard their words and can say quite candidly what the situation is and can give you some very good sound advice in this course. I endeavor to make comments as you might say a good conductors wife might say just observing how a conductor looks to other people and fortunately of course they're very chatty these students which is a very very good thing and they do comment to one another about how things are going and we've just had a little coffee break issue as you know. And one student was talking to another and saying how much he had improved since the first week. This wasn't just mere flattery it was in connection actually with a point of controversy this student raised but the other one said Well don't worry you have improved immensely. This sort of thing I think is very useful to have other people commenting practice of course is of

paramount importance. You can never become a conductor just from reading books. Do you as a teacher have to bring out qualities of leadership in the students of conducting. This point of leadership and conduct of course is terribly important it's a matter very much of course not only of leadership but rather in the sense of of knowing your own mind lay your cards on the table. And above all being crystal clear in your indications. You know there's one thing I just want to say here. The two arms the two hands the conductor has there are really quite separate independent techniques. The right arm which holds the baton. I was regarded as the conductors professionalism. That is the thing which goes on willy nilly. He has to keep the time going and whatever is happening that always has to be very reliable and very constant. The left hand is is entirely personal. You can't teach anybody anything to do with the left hand. You can say

Rachel left hand if you want the brass to play loud or something like this but this would be purely mechanical. Be quite a convincing and probably the brass wouldn't play loud. It has to come right from inside it has to be an inner feeling. So what are you doing on this course is mainly to use the right hand to get the better long. Flowing smoothly to establish their professionalism. Shall we say so that whatever the circumstances that keeps on going without any hesitation as they become emancipated their two hands one one is emancipated from the other. They will eventually use their left hand and of course they that is by far the more expressive of the two. Yes it might just stop you here. I was I leave you out of this but

you got a nice look at the big there which is your prerogative but I feel that this is the wrong one for this group. This move that I think by all means let's have an absolutely fair for the very first call. And I think for the second bar it must be quite clear for those that all took that runs Yes that must be quite clear. But then after that. I think if you could have a more lyrical the great feeling of sauce to neuter the students range from young adults who are actually learning to conduct to elderly people who attend the classes as observers. Out of interest. I met two of the students Florence eaves and John Curry who told me why they'd come on this course. Well I've connected a student caught slinging université on two occasions for a Christmas service at some old rehearsing the choir for about 7 or 8 weeks before Christmas. Kind of about 50 students who just volunteered to come along and sing. I have learnt a lot

about conducting from conducting them because just having to stand up in front of people. Beat out the music is quite a big thing to have to do in first place. But. I thought I had some potential for conducting. Through coming to the course I have learned so much about what's conducting really is all about summed all my mistakes that I was doing before have all been revealed and been able to learn an awful lot of fact about conducting so that at least I should be able to go back and conduct the choir with a lot more confidence than. I've. Been doing. Previously. But I had no conducting experience whatever. But I am a musician and I have not sort of participated in any musical activity for about 15 years. Then I lost my house and found myself that out of town and that I have taken up my music again. I learned a tremendous lot. What have you learned how to make an orchestra

understand what you require from them in the way of musical interpretation. Just probably yours for the better. I have had quite a bit of experience in school reading which I wouldn't normally do. And it helped me tremendously. But of course mostly the main thing is that never before up what I have dreamt that I was able to stand up and conduct an orchestra. But now I have. Like 10. The first thing one learns is how to give a clear beat to the orchestra to be turnt different times three four four four six eight and so on and how to change from one time to into another time this is something which is often very difficult for me and almost very clear him being able to do this. And one learns how to bridge over the transitions between one time and another. And then also having got that basic thing one can go on from there and learn how

to communicate more of what one wants from the music to the orchestra such as basic things like crescendo and diminuendo the Fortes fortissimo once thought that I was. Pinsent passages and what Mr. Fairfax has been trying to explain to us is that all this is possible merely by use of the stick that one should be able to communicate to the orchestra through the stick exactly what one wants a very good sense of timing of course is also important. I mean it's no good just beating with a stick unless you're beating in regular use. So therefore rhythm and this initial quality I feel one has to know exactly what one is going to rehearse before one comes to it. One has to know exactly what one requires one has to know the score extremely well this is one thing that I have found very revealing. You come to a point in the music where you've completely lost where the orchestra and you have to keep going. The essential thing is not to stop. You have to find where you are in the music and it can be very traumatic. Try to take it over

and really sort of keeping going. So you really have to know the score very thoroughly before you dare to approach your artistry. Sounds like going down hill on a bicycle with no brakes. It is rather. But of course if you have any musical ability I should think that most people know that I'm conducting. Then more or less you can guess can't you. Where you should be in school. Did you feel fear at all the first time. Petrified absolutely which was last week of course. It's the feeling of having to keep going to think. Well as you said it's like a bustle going and one just has to keep moving to the music. All feels well obviously as one gets confidence in something if you're from to the office or the nuts will obviously. Think experience counts for a lot in conducting songs one realizes one's limitations. That doesn't mean that you

can't think what you have learned useful particularly so as to. Place bills of an amateur group or something like that. I think it can be very useful. Well that one doesn't have to be brilliant to. Turn to into music and to enjoy music to make music. For. Every new. Students at the end of London

educational pharmacy costs. Learning to conduct and this is Terrence Kelly in the studios of the BBC in London. This was the world of education. This programme was distributed by National Public Radio.