Cooper Union forum; 2; Spring 1970

National Educational radio presents the Cooper Union forum. A program taken from a live broadcast from the great hall of the Cooper Union. This program was recorded in New York City by station WNYC on October 22nd 1969. The chairman is Dr. Johnson E. Fairchild of the Cooper Union. Now to introduce tonight's speakers here is Dr. Fairchild. Very good plot for the night but the camera is here. With you. He has a book called up from depression. And it's an odd couple printings already had for the hour. Yes. But if you would like to read it I'm sure it's available someplace. He has.

He has so many credits both men have so many credits that there's no use of my listing on the first place. Who knows I'm the second. Cyclist. Man he said who cares for some of us do care about some of this thing. His associate clinical professor of psychiatry the York Medical College. Among other things he does appear to have a series with us. Been here before being here again. We certainly hope he my right hand side I think you're right. To you all. That is Dr. Emmanuel K. Schwartz. Doctor. Works. For. You. Well known the Cooper Union audiences as a series of credit credits that are down here and a few critics also.

But. But that's neither here nor there. He is the dean of training at the Post Graduate Center for Mental Health. Many times the Kuiper here get very much indebted to him for a great deal of help with programs. His background of the school I mean you're getting younger every day. Has to do with the new school. Columbia University. Teachers College contributors so many articles so many things I'm not going to worry about it anymore because if you don't know Dr. Emmanuel Schwartz why now why should I do it you know. OK then we have other things. Well. Who are school. I'm sorry it's not I wish I had one like that. I wish I had one that could

speak out as well as that one. Thank you for coming. So we have a little discussion here. Frost gratia was under pressure. Among other things I'm probably one of the number one. Examples of fraud. But Dr. Carroll would you like to say about 15 20 minutes Well what do you think about it Dr. Schwartz. There will have a little discussion about it or else the audience to think about their question. We'll talk a little more. OK. Here and. This is just all right. Every time hyperscale a big concert to the. And us show it during World War Two. He

always used to say before I get to the schmaltz I'm going to get your son. I classical music and this will be my contribution toward the I could damage should music he would play something. Very very class call that they never heard about. And. Then you would go on to the more interesting part of it. I suspected that the fact I was going to call it first so I prepared some of the academic. Definition on things. And since I knew marriage was. Really. Something higher. And very respectful with his thinking and erudition goes. I'm sure he'll fail and I might get more interesting than what I'm going to give you but I'm going to be sort of like definitions and say that frustration is something you all experience. And for good reason I think. It's inevitable that you're trying to.

Hide some kind of obstacle in the fulfillment of your desires in one form or another. And there are obstacles all around us. So that we're bound to be frustrated if I were to use more technical language I'd say there's a fourth conflict and harmony. In nature only bind to deal with conflict at some point. So they're bound to run into a frustrating experience this is inevitable. The definition I use is sort of a semi. Dictionary one frustration is that spread fear or the denial of gratification by some reality of the situation. That's the basis of it. So when you're frustrated it's quite normal you're dealing with reality all the time. Frustration takes on a very special kind. The psychological meaning however. You have. Because we all have good special meanings. And concepts and

value judgements to the reality around us. No thing in society no reality I want in society or environment has the same meaning for every person. Therefore we tend to be frustrated and react with different intensities to the frustration depending on the meaning that we give to certain reality situations. I mean to put it in a simple kind of way. Whenever we are confronted with this denial the frustration can be measured by what that person expected. What's your expectation. I've expected a great deal and you didn't get it. You're going to be frustrated more. The expectation of. Turning. Is conditioned by your particular needs and here. You have. Your absolute biological needs. I had passion today so I feel Randy

dark. So. I have an idea she's doing something about it today. I hope she. I hope she's not frustrated. Now this is a biologic name that's most elemental sense. It may have other reasons too but I would interpret it that way. Now we have social needs. There's a series running in the post today. Loneliness for instance. Biologically we all have a need to belong I think I mentioned this two weeks ago. Tremendous need to belong to be part of a group a human being can survive alone. So that. One of the frustrating experiences is loneliness or any other social need there are a tremendous variety of them and God talk that I was for I mean just about what the particular social needs are of any one person. And that is something psychologists and. I to talk about in terms of the individual. However one wants to interpret it. And since

we're all familiar with that time I would use a simple word. Ego needs. What is that thing called the higher the ego the individual I see develops and as a culture within the society how we develop psychologically. So here are the expectations based upon. Your biological needs applying your social needs for ego needs and we can expand this or hyphenate these things in any way we want. But this is the essential core of. Howard. At least I might approach what is frustrating for the individual. Now when we're frustrated things happen. We would come back or feel defeated if we feel disappointed and humiliated. But mostly I think we feel angry. And. Again depending upon the degree or the intensity of our expectation and consider the frustration we bury this anger could be a mild kind of irritability a little petty annoyance at the moment in our

life or it could be a very tense moment kind of rage and anger that leads us to do things that ordinarily wouldn't help. We can persist with this kind of anger. Anger is expand the sarin nerve a sign that she has actually no real function. It exhausts us. And one of the concepts that I have. Goodbye depression or the word de Jackson I'm simply going to take that word beach action and very quickly redefine it as depression. And when I talk about depression I feel exploited when I talk about the objection that's just another word for the pressure in my life which. If. Anger or for that matter fear or anxiety persist. We ultimately exhaust our ability to act this way or to live with this kind of. Turmoil. And I'm

nervous functionally can't do it. And ultimately we exhaust. Her. But Dr. breeze and that exhaustion was felt was for tea as weariness or depression. And depression with biologic Saints is actually aid physical exhaustion brain and region. I'm not talking about a veto on my part about anything. How about actual brain and you g you. You exhaust the chemical soup brand in the same way that if you ride a bicycle 5 ride a bicycle for six hours in Central Park every muscle in my body would feel like and that would be because the actual motion muscle tissue would be exhausted. And whether we talk about muscle tissue. Or tired blood. Or tired nervous function we're actually talking biological right. I don't mean here but it's state of the prostate. And the outpouring of chemicals that go with anger and that go with fear and anxiety also. Do

ultimately exhaust themselves it's like talking too much to my friends tried. And. For some people that should do it soon. I suppose. The wider exhaustion of adaptive research. There is one form of depression. And. The depression that follows. Frustration. Follows a climb. Out inability. To handle. The anger very water. I use in other words we're left impotent. And impotence is a symptom of a part of depression. There are other symptoms but tede impotent just the state of exhaustion and weariness. Sadness comes upon us when you're tired you're sad. And sadness told you you say. We rationalize that we're sad because we're frustrated isn't too bad I shouldn't have to be frustrated. The world is so rich. Why should. There's a song in Fiddler I wrote if I were rich I. Would be

such a terrible thing. If God lets me be a rich man. He's frustrated. He was sad. And he brought the China song about it which is incidentally one way to handle these things or come back to that the moment you feel emotionally drained. This too is sadness and with sadness comes the last pleasure dried. And then we get into the more psychological meanings of what constitutes pleasure. Eating sex. On the Beat are in this sense we lose interest in doing things and work with those high motivation. Watch for what he goes kind of attitude we go into depression I don't. That oppression too much because it has just written a whole book club of. Talk about depression. But we'll get back to it if anybody's interested. Basically we're inhibited neurologically with exhausted ourselves with the onslaught of just pushing against the obstacle. Then we do lose our confidence we tend to worry with loss of confidence other

manifestations appear we anticipate with tremendous anxiety into the future and we have what the psychologists and I like to call our anticipatory anxiety. We become terribly in the syce of an arm in arm. And we feel kind of. Hopeless almost Actually I got a list. That I culled from the but that kind of crap that I ripped out a few companies here of some 30 or 40 different items that go with depression and what happens. In the depressive state. And this is essentially the Koran which we can deal with depression. And deal with it. And before I get more involved I think I'm going to start at this point because frankly I'm. Really interested in this watchlist. Thank you very much. But in reading your curious work. What do you think about

that. It's nice to be here. Glad you're all here tonight. I see. I say it's it's nice to be here. I'm in a special disadvantage I rarely talk to an audience from a seated position. And your staff are all I'd try. Drawing. Because you know how. The name of Dr Camus book is. Up from depression is book is not deep depression but up from depression and I think if you will be done. If you'll hold me down I get deep breaths if you let me up will you let me fly. I am not so depressed. Go thought I. It's what I want to do because I think. This is essentially what we are talking about tonight. Whether we talk about frustration or depression or the dejection. And I think there must be some reason why the word dejection exists in Abo Kavya Larry.

We're talking about the state of mind a state of being in a state of feeling in which something is happened to us. Generally we think it has happened to us from outside. One of the most interesting anthropological studies I have ever read that dealt with what is our attitude toward death. I understand we're going to have a a symposium on death later on. But I want to share this with you tonight. And this study seemed to indicate. That no matter how developed of a society you have. Primitive mental development developing underdeveloped over developed affluent society. People in that society tend to view dead. As an attack upon one. An attack from outside. That death can be from natural causes. Only debilitation.

But the experience of dead is viewed as an attack from outside. Why did it happen to me. Will did it to me. Who up there doesn't like me. Once in all our weather death seems that sad. But it's experienced as an attack. I have a feeling that we are dealing with something like back in the entires syndrome of depression. It is a syndrome of frustration of the gentian the sadness. Which I think is one of the reasons probably why your book is so successful and is that I think our whole nation is depressed. We're not depressed the way I was in 1935 at the height of the Great Depression. The economic depression because we had a hole. Then we had hope that somehow we could look at the problem. I have a feeling that the reason why depression is so common in the practices of Dr. Campbell myself and others who watch trying to help people is

because our whole nation maybe the whole world seems to be in this they are hopeless mess. It seems to me that you're got to start with the assumption. That something stands in my way or that no matter what I do I am impotent to use the word you used before. That's what frustration means. The word frustration comes with the word fresh from Latin. Which says in V No matter how I try. All of my efforts are in vain. Now if you get a sense that whatever you do you can't do anything about it. If you get the sense that no matter how you try to Mal you struggle with it you can't do anything about it. You're going to be frustrated. You're going to get angry and got to Grandma's and you're going to get angry and you're going to get deeper and deeper depressed because you're not going to be able to do anything about it and you're not going to be able to do very much about the anger even.

Aware dejection. And I'd like to stay with that a little bit because I think it is related to the pressure it means to be thrown down. You got up from the pressure. Something has thrown you down. It's not that you're feeling low I woke up this morning up feeling good. But if you dejected it means it's something someone. You have experienced something. There is something in reality which you are experiencing. It doesn't come from heaven or hell as the case may be. Some people think all the good things come heaven all bad things come out. I mean that's one way of looking at it. But I don't I don't think it's it isn't it it comes from that far away. I don't think it's the moon or the stars. I think it has to do with what you are experiencing in your state of being in your life. That's why I didn't use the word depression because depression in a clinical sense may have other meanings there but the jejune

is generally a human experience. A human feeling when you feel somebody has thrown you down. Somebody has a base you d based you do Umanai you made you feel less than a human be and there's something about the world today that we are experiencing in this fashion. I submit that we can only understand that this problem. For most people I'm not talking about those who live and die just depressions that is biologically organically determined or walk very seriously sick or maybe I'm talking about all of us we're all very serious that maybe that's true but I'm torn. Most of us who feel dejected frustrated humbled will be based dehumanised. Most of the time today and want to find an answer. I look for some answer in up from the pressure. Because some way we want to get with it.

Now it's very easy to believe that if I were a rich man like. A fiddler I have yet. To learn like your pay should have I got laid the night. That therefore I would be frustrated I would be dejected. And I think that's a mistaken notion. I want to challenge that idea. I would like to submit that many people have money. And have sufficient resources for food clothing shelter or other very good kind comparatively speaking. That many people hide money of sexual opportunity outlet now the kinds of things and still feel they chinked did. Still feel the threat. I've experienced like your patient I'm predicting I don't know your age at all but she's gone a happy experience going to do something about it tonight but tomorrow she's going to be just as the president people. He's going to be the jacket you're going to be unhappy. Because there is something about up our view of what we

expect from life. I think that was the word that God began to use used and I want to underscore I hope there is something about what we expect. And our certainty that we're never going to get it. That makes us the Gen.. It isn't just that we don't think we're going to get it or somebody it isn't the everybody but we expect something and we at the same time say Asher. I don't like you always receive your vibe. If I only. Ah. They have to go together it's got to be both AGOA. And if you think you made them go together if on the one hand you expect you want. But you will make any effort because you've already got the gimmick in there saying. After. All as it wound up the moment you do that you're going to go down. You're not going to want some way you've got to come to grips with this adage you this hopelessness which grants all of

us. At one time or another. But which is a very very common today on amongst so many people. That it is not was I ride in the taxi K and the guy says to me I gotta get out of the city. I mean I got squat from ear to ear by some guy and I go to the cops and they say what can I do when they finally catch a guy in there and the judge says what can i do we put him on probation he got me a day. He says oh I was a driver working in New York let's get out of there. Johnny said let's close up the Cooper Union forum it's always expect the good lookin gals that come here anymore they're afraid to walk out certain. Haven't you. I never said. I was a lady I understand over here the other night I heard this report of some lady walking down the street around 8:30 and four or five young.

Somebodies or another jumped on or broke or hit my leg and when they squeeze I did finally arrive. He said I believe you should be walking on the streets alone. She said wanted H20. Yes. I what I'm suggesting is that if we all get to the point of view that there is nothing we could do about anything. If we are so involved in this hopelessness. If we stop already with the idea that no matter what I do my job. What I expect no matter how will I cry. There is going to be somebody out there who's going to throw me down. Who's going to humble me. That's what the word deject means a base for me. The base me. De-humanize me don't generally get in the middle. Only afterwards to know hey. If that's what's what I believe it that's the view I have. You might as well

turn in the union card the morning. I urge somewhere to take stock within yourself. And ask yourselves how many of you are willing to struggle against the oppression. Against the less than us. To try to find something about the day that is worth living even if it is only that you're alive. Because if you start with the idea that it is a bowler's. Fancy word as a measure or any other word you want a limited supply of gratification you use the words I don't need the fancy ones. But if you start with the idea that there is a change. That I feel that life is worthwhile even only for the experience of living. I think that's the only way we can lick this problem. You've got to do something about the idea we've got to struggle against the idea we've got to face the realities which keep on confronting us. But it is hopeless. In the.

And. Thank you Dr. Emanuel casework driver. Well a lot of the. Roads Lead up. But it's very fascinating. For example here are my Here I am one of the most effective hard pressed people of the world. That's what I would do I just came back from where. What are we doing about oh. Well I. Forget what I'm doing but I'll get away with that but they're sad not to get worked out. I think what that's what is really very very frightening. I use the word bae all the time I say I think of you know being a biological question and I just

think that way you can't go through medical school without thinking you stuck with body. Stop cutting my you know aren't the conditions to think this way so. This is where you get your insured. Or. Patient. So I didn't buy either of them. Go on from there and I say what is the emanation from this thing called the mind or the brain. Married I call a man. Question on the swing is OK enough. Without your dad. It starts. The minute the person loses hope then you and I actually carry this for. Me to get religious but I sometimes think that some of the all time I stood on this and the avoidance of days gone by crazy right. Exactly false. They're pretty keen observers of human nature to kill and they headed to one of the words along with the pope and I was faking charity. And you must have

faith in your fellow man because without belongingness And without trust in your fellow man. You're also not long for this world. And without trying without helping hand you don't survive. So I think of Faith Hope and Charity not as a quayside religious or anything but I think you and I. It's a very biological necessity of human endeavor and without it we we're in bad shape. So you're using biology Lanas in its truest sense meaning life life. Yeah it's like a study science has this area in order to live there without it get can live you can that's what you mean by biological of it. Yes I'm a problem by marriage here I'm talking about loyalty to modify organic in the depression right. I'm talking about the science of the life and not many on the way. But I'm talking about how human beings can be with each other whether it's in this room or breaking bread at a table somewhere or

just making love to one another and this becomes an absolute essential This is the harmony that we look for as a counter to the frustrating experiences that we really feel. Now you mentioned something else and I always thought that you were going to use a phrase that I can't use very often with my patients and this is going after what we do about when someone says to me. The art is rough I get my pockets checked I get. Hit over the head or sorts of things THANK YOU have you had an experience today they are the way they robbed you of your briefcase he walked in carrying a gun somebody snatched my The snatched it out of his hand 86 relaxing itself its Ruffy into That's right. See you people come down here. However. You talked about a goal. Well let me get to the phrase Go I say. You can't leave in the yard and say I'm going to get out of New York because question I would throw my patient there is OK you can leave New York there's a ticket. When you want me

to make the take a tour of Chicago to Bryce called up to where you want to go to which is a. Very. Simple kind of way of saying what you go where you might where you want to have for and when you said the rich man has his depression frustration it's true. I have a patient who owns half. I'd like to turn our natural real estate. How many hundreds of million dollars this man has where he's depressed. I'm treating him for a very bad question he makes money and his goal is obviously for something else just sense of that and that he makes all these millions of dollars. I. Can help you sell our house today and it's another for what 10 million seven million. The figures don't mean anything to me says it's numbers guy he says I'm very unhappy I cry all the time I wake up with the heebie jeebies in the morning I want to kill myself. This is a 61 year old man you say he's got a home and they just got a private airplane he's got many things. Hastings I had so many things. But it's got

things. And he doesn't have I don't know his wife. Is a very sad. It's a very sad remark you see again your wife is going to have a life that you can also experience that I have a life I mean it was a robbery. It works both ways I just want to be here I'm I'm taking the other side tonight. If I ask this man what he wants in life what he really wants to go he doesn't know he's frustrated in a sense by him or him your life and it's a mistake to say I should have his money and I wouldn't have these troubles it isn't true. I think I don't know what the general welfare is of people residing. But I have a notion that there are very few of your Missoni you should know what to do it for many dollars or a hundred dollars just wouldn't know what to do if you think you do but here they say they like to try to be like me trying to get. What he really while working well really. We satisfy you what are your needs and how well

do you really know me. And then you can talk about whether you reach for that period of hopelessness. And you must have hope I'm actually myself. And when you say what do you do about it. Somebody asked. Here you look. And try to realize your own potential where your work what can you do really. Not try to. Seek. Actual. I asked Jason said Mike to say when's the last time you did something that made you feel as if you contributed to society want to waste time and picked up a piece of a letter from the street. The stuff in the street. When's the last time you became an activist and anything you really try to promote my cause. What's your cause. Give me one thing that you said or done that make you feel like today I contributed something for the human endeavor in the broadest sense. And then people began to think that they've got something to walk that they can pick up a piece of dirt they can sweep the sidewalk. It's amazing what we can do once the last time I

thought I met a privileged kid how to read. But to a man in the formal sense just beginning to picture. Doing anything. When's the last time for your neighbor who doesn't speak English so good. How to speak English good real good. For us. The kind of thing Larry and. I have a wife and just my friends. At any rate what I'm getting at is that when there is no hope one looks at the whole drive sometimes helps the nervous system. I'm. Cool it was five humorous functions can sound like a shock to me sometimes self psychotherapy and people and I'll sometimes stop everything else sometimes has an article on Playboy magazine and the only reason I know it is that they sent me care she finessed if I would come in and out of the line. It seems that Freud decide according to this article and we all have the kinds of therapy near-miss about 14 to 15 different

kinds of therapy and make publications that are coming. So. They must do all the dirty pictures out there by. Whining suddenly the whole magazine. But they just write straight. They want to see if your book works on you. That's what they just sent me the parachute on this one article carefully. But I have at any rate what I'm saying is there was a comment from my narrative surprise you know that there were about 40 different kinds of psychotherapy busters that one is you have to tell me about called Or God I mean orgy or when that must be built right. Your well I guess I for my guesses but I knew all of them except that one. But anyway cursing the ones that developing over here in St. Mark's Place they're developing new kinds of therapy. All right should be aware of real history once and the next day she will be Minsky Minsky said he did this a long time before they had group therapy and then they would lie on the floor in the dressing rooms on Broadway before that right.

You know you're OK on that market and. I can't be more specific about what one does about Christ and you have again covered. The question to. Ask yourself what are your expectations. What are your goals. I mean you have your answer to the doors to Christ or you meet somebody at the White House like a router or a good friend to help push you to. Focus on your goal. This is where a lot of NYU for Big Brother or a good therapist. Comes or this is where the track really worse. But how to push. Through. Here with your eyes to the full strength and I'm simplifying but. I sure couldn't. I don't know why I don't want to and larger but I wonder whether we could face what I think for me for most people I'm not talking about the same release a lot of most

people. What seems to be the source of the problem at least as I see it the source of one of things you do that is not as you think it comes from outside you're going to feel hopeless. But I find a lot of us oppressed great ourselves let alone the nullification which is what the word frustration means a lot of the. Deep posing of ourselves a lot of deep of the sense of the way are a lot of this ends up being what. Does not come from outside. Some of it does a great deal guys. But the thing that we can do most quickly about it seems to me is is that the model that. That we do here frustrate ourselves. Mike I think years ago I told a story about this guy will want his wife to make a Passat. So he lay there week after week night after night month there. I might not say a word. He wanted love but he wouldn't call. They won trophies that is she really loves me. She'll be able to read my mind.

And this guy became more and more frustrated more angry more impressed. Now if you've got a mouth music. Say something tangy. You must make some effort it seems to me to go overcoming those aspects of your life. In which you frustrate yourself. IT WOULD YOU friends greet those whom you love very much. Those who are very closest to you because the 80s sense of frustration and a sense of the jejune and a sense of depression for me is always bilateral or. Multilateral and always used for some purpose that involves another person. They took me there and I'm going to put them down by saying look at what you did to me. Typical mother trip by the way an old fashioned mother of three. You see I went out in the rain and I didn't. I really hope I come back she's dead I want to die I am older. I killed her by going out in the rain and not paying attention.

Now the sense out what she does to herself with this depression. And what she goes to me this bi national party is something we can do something about it meet me day by day in the here and now. And that's something that I want is that. I think what we do not to. Frustrate ourselves not to nullify our own ass. I think. I am sorry I am and or. With the press to the result of being frustrated and I quite agree with you I used the word potential profit potential to suddenly you know you could go and start. Well when I say we're frustrated or a good reality we are right to do it. Frustrated as the norm. Well for me there are other ways of dealing with frustration. Sometimes we just withdraw from the situation we just walk into another room push the door to where.

I was coming to withdraw all moving away from where I. Couldn't sell curtains on fire salutes I wasn't sorry for. You know the Messiah. But it's more than my heart. The withdrawal in the sense. Of pulling on or turns around you're. Making stuff on your own to perceiving anything that might have been or could have told you I really mean withdrawal in the sense of shutting yourself and where you are or aren't more either Ansell communities on the planet the fact that you're withdrawing from the city the way that this is the present writing to crush me but another thing we deal with the story rest we become babies. We go into fantasy we daydream whether we like the little boy who sits there and it's a matter of being because an already asked and I was something beforehand I have this to contend with. We don't fulfill what we can do we start

daydreaming about what we do like to know if there was a medicine. We started going out with this great person and that sort of gets away from the face. What should be. Sometimes we resort to why the mechanisms. See where the snowball nation we get angry. So the way we do something. Well if I can't do NOT want to do death or start lights on the French you clean up the basement. You do things zooming around I smile always there are a variety of things. Here's one mechanism that we tend to use more with frustrated which is potentially dangerous its very pure Would it socially acceptable. And it works but sometimes it works well and that is why we treat the frustrating experience as a joke. We sort of the split screen displaying still either. And here I am the psychologist and the psychology here. You do it better and. Disappoints me

and to all it's counter or through the artist. Will wait until I think we sing Silent displacement Sometimes my thoughts with people and the way it's taken proportion I can always express. So I could stare. I think what's happening to our society I can get angry of exactly what I mean you mention for this depression which is what one of the or the but. The further we look in the age of answers. Concept of the exhaustion of the patient and said the aged man inside has finally burned itself just itself into the better pressure. I do agree that we see much oppression. I asked with a partner friend of mine and. If we pan the screen I can just bring these pictures I said at random would you please go out on the street but the street might like something to the movie feel very at least

in the neighborhood I see them. In the 80s. I supply pictures that random people coming out of the subway if I do I have these pictures. And if I get mental slides I would like to show them so. I guess I will do our share of my collection. There isn't one smiling face and four hours of pictures I mean it's very Him for everybody. You always question her. The jacket might. Be moving there wasn't one person smiling my current story commercial we call them pants but I like I like you all to demand of the next major lever the candidate is that he has that he committed himself that every subway car in New York City will be airconditioned next summer. I'll wager that the same for Tucker.

I'll wager that same for Tiger who will get happy faces if in the summer every car in the subway rare condition knew we had some this summer. We had some expedition which. I never saw such happy faces celebrate as I didn't know Zach condition guy. You took that away from him. I'm sorry I was just going to say well how could any body come out of the New York City subway system and smile. Just You're asking too much from me. But I think we can do something about it I'm suggesting this is one of the things you can do about it. Rather the feel is hopeless. That's asking too much. It isn't asking too much. I think the citizens of the city of New York are entitled to a decent shake a decent break in life. I think they're entitled to a decent kind of city to live it and I think it's up to you to demand it. But I can't do it for you. I'm one small guy with one voice. I think that's what documents what Matt was saying when he says

do something I don't care whether it's one candidate or another. So far you're doing something about it. Do it by doing get out and do it and say that this is not a hopeless situation. I love New York too much to believe it is a hopeless situation. I don't believe it. And I can't do it alone you can't do it alone. There's no for actions you're. Going to go to. Treatment. It was really to record a person as a psychiatrist you know what motivates the motivated person. Wow what's the irony. The Border Patrol and I feel for the person I go to the water for having very good God Himself. I go over to write American crap I don't stop for a ride in the right time for good use of my for. Her

high or. That this is exactly the point that we want to make that I just got it. Yeah guy to your guy to feel that you aren't being thwarted in every effort you make it really living like a decent human being and you gotta keep struggling part of living like a decent human being is the struggle to improve the status of your life the conditions under which you live. I would like however how long you got John I want to start with whether we got 3 minutes what I'd like at least one minute to devote to. I thought I want to leave with. And that is. I have a hunch. That there is a kind of depression. That is the kind of pouting that women in the middle age. That is in the middle of the 19th century used to use women used the power it was a great writer who wrote a book about the pouting of women. He said when women out they have a certain kind of dress that they wear they

sit in a certain share they wear a certain kind of curfew mano purview. They prepare a certain kind of dish. Bobby when he gives all men like this is a nineteen hundred 1890 kind to stop but this is how Me. Which means she was very dejected. Not the prey she was the jacket. The function of this injection is not to feel be posed yourself to feel wanted yourself to feel abased yourself but to abase the other person. To depots the other person to the other person. And I think that sometimes our depression is our roundabout ways obscene to the other person. Drop dead. I am suggesting. That it might be easier on your stomach easier on your light. And much more effective you could say to the other person. Drop dead if you mean that then you go and do it oppression and act as if you were the press. If you can say it it is expressed as feeling instead of a cat walking

around the room. And hoping the other guy Dines because of it. It's been a long. I think you'll be better off. Man you're right person yet the pressroom I saw of the state sun and I said you just heard me here in my honor I said. OK fine. You say no. You speak up. And that's my right. And I tried to help but it's one way of saying something to just talk I hear. And I think he's quite right. If you. Act. You will succeed. You might take a break you didn't hear us press telling you. Sorry but our official time is over. Ladies and gentlemen I want to come off the floor.

You have been listening to a discussion of frustration and dejection with Dr. Leonard Kamber and Emmanuel K. Schwartz. The talk was recorded in the great hall of the Cooper Union in New York City on October 22nd 1969 by radio station WNYC. This is the national educational radio network.