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Therefore natural allies to a revolutionary movement where their kind is over and I women who undergo illegal abortions are people on drugs people who take drugs are homosexuals or anyone who is in you is. By definition not Toles Manson would be a rebel by that point I would say yes I think I do it too in the ludicrous pot with you and Brenda Dean Dorn who enjoyed the fork going into the victim's stomach was wow mostly harmless you know rubble to see how to handle you know what I'm gonna do when I'm in I don't know it's a serious it's a serious point to me you don't know you see people who isolate themselves from the conventions of society which is not to say that if you wanted to say thank you to Bobby Kennedy which is not as you necessarily. Think what they do is good. But you want what you and I must be watching their action directly generically they do foster the revolutionary spirit by by pulling out. But what is the politics of this is what I don't stand is that you want to see let's say in the best sense of the word and I don't mean any red baiting since a communist society and then an anarchy is a you know
and of course syndicalism. I don't quite understand the politics of the word revolution I understand the culture that you talk about in terms of revolution. I don't stand the politics of it. What would be the power structure in the MBA Politburo would to be dictatorship with George Meany be sitting you know and he well it was some kind of solution written by Maliki to the revolution. That very important revolution you can have to Olympia press to sell it in all of bookstores and make fortunes for everyone no no you can't make fortunes. So when the good one not really what you want the money has to be a liberty with money. VERNON What do you do with your progress as a US because I have no answer to what you're asking is what is the most successful guest you've ever it's a first time I've heard a guest on your program say he has no answers. This may be because you have a moment comes after the revolution. I don't know and you know this is what Lenin had the same problem the day after the revolution he said Mahdi complains in one of his writings Marx never told us what we do tomorrow
morning. What do you do now so we had some vague ideas like everybody gets the same salary. The worker and the factory manager until finally they had to drop that idea and then you have to do a lot of things as it turns out Stalin did a couple of things which turned out to been very bad like calling people coup Lex and killing 15 million or maybe saving money he would put you know it's in the areas of the revolution my boy is everybody's for good and virtue Robespierre. Incorruptible wrote it in a different way of the differences between this generation. And revolutions say of the 19th century is we're not interested fundamentally inequality. We're fundamentally interested in justice. Which means that we have greater tolerance for ideas of liquidating a class and so on. And I think that comes from the I become criminals. I'm just I was in the motives for why this is. You're talking about murder this is the way people get categorized a class of Jews Gypsies and Catholics you don't see people you see Jews Catholics and
gypsies and they march you off if you like to say in your book to the gas chambers clients that when you have some reference in one of these about they marched off quietly these little boys who were being taken in somewhere into Washington some called concentration camps. They went like the Jews into the gas chambers. When you talk about the word class don't you see people. Is it that you can say you ought to be shot and you want to to live. It was the only thing of the why should I shoot you the whole thing the whole the whole charm not ability to function. As a revolution which I'm not. The whole ability to function as one depends upon the ability to do personalize the random ie. People if you personally were exactly if you personalize your enemy you can Eric. That's not as Terry Newman said you've got to be prepared to shoot your mother. That's right that's a pretty awful. That's what I find difficult about you. You keep saying I'm not a revolutionary but you're busy explaining it and very understanding very charming and elegant prose and I keep. Thinking about the boys who are always busy understanding
Hitler of course he's an uncouth Barry and I'm not a Nazi but you do have to when I say I was on all of the potter stores in Berlin and I think. And then I support the idea of regolith revolution came I would support it. I have of the. How would you suppose I know enough about myself that I run into many I don't know one of the machine gun. I don't have the physical courage. To be willing to die I don't want to die and I want it out of the revolution or anything else. I mean I know that enough about myself I have no visitors at all. And what draws me in the situations of political violence is not courage but a kind of psychological need in the to involve myself with make up. I also know I also know that. I am part of a class and am part of a Privileged Class. That would be liquidated. I mean they may get you first but they get me next and I know that absolute gotta get George Meany for a shilling get me so. But that doesn't matter to me because I firmly I want revolution to come and the reasons for it are very complex and what happens afterward doesn't matter.
Why don't they all be around to see you. Well it's just an act of a dying of the Legion you know. You know I mean we're I don't know what it's going to be in the lead you can see it it will be something you are continually trying to find rational. Rationality behind what people do politically plainly what the left does politically. I don't understand the whole the thrust of the left is shouting like that is against reason. It's it's an irrational. That's why it's an acoustic in the alist it's an irrational and there when you demand then why do you why do you have to treat it like a like something intelligent when I just put it all in those sort of and in loony bins. I mean people are talking revolution because it's irrational. But how do they differ from somebody like like Saddam I don't know you can say oh I was saying the motive the motivation behind it is not irrational because people most people including myself who came to their political position came to experientially rather than intellectually but the doctor wouldn't accept a.. And why when we do something was I take it but if I took a position on the war and so on. I take it on the basis of
rational ground and logic and so on. But the motivation behind. Say the desire for a rebel of these abstractions. Is doesn't come intellectually. It comes emotionally comes out of the gut and that's why you can't you're not going to be mean. That's why attacking the left for this attack intellect. But you look very very rational argument but it doesn't work is it dealing with what exactly the motivations behind this because you don't understand Wait a minute let me ask that but it's not unless I was like let me ask you this if you were in affective charge of the military industrial complex would you. Proceed simply to eliminate. The revolutionary class those of them with with as you put it with physical courage I think if I think the people I think people as Thomas Jefferson said have a right to revolution. They have a right to overthrow a government. They no longer want. I think the government has a duty to resist that as one of the most yesterday. Thomas Jefferson I it is but but quite apart from that would you as
a matter of policy a strategy if you had a little time to accomplish would you order the elimination of those people who threatened you. I think if I were head of the military does a conflict in this country. I think you could I think one could within a year the left you could you would have thought how many people would be involved the execution of about how many people I think would take execution. I think I think you are you by the left in this is not basically good bad living is kind of the way England buys it off. And how does England do that you get you give them access upward mobility only give them access to power. And then had to be the ultimate power. But if oh I see you same way Lindsay buys All Blacks in this town. You know he gives them poverty projects to give them a look at Floyd McKissic because it is sold out lock stock and barrel to the next administration because he's gotten several million in federal funding to build so city
and so I don't get excited I very love I didn't tell of you know them two years ago and agree with everything I said. One of the shell out by the way and he supports the ministration and he's gone in two years from. But but suppose it's his judgment that the black people for whom he is fighting all profit any more from the Nixon administration than they would from LA. Jerry Ruben and I think that that change that change in judgment comes from the fact that he is a black man is pride you doubt his motives. Well I mean maybe I shouldn't as well as a nation but I've seen too many. I mean I've known too many leftists. Well Pat how do you say everybody that you associated with could be had. Known or saying you know I just want one. You said with me yesterday said with anything I said there was one of the ways I mean I'm not going to give you a program to liquidate my friends. But there were a number of ways you could do the government's response to the left has been very good and well enough. Yeah I've been in very bad and I think the government's chief mistake was forcing the left
underground. And if I were Mitt Mr. Nixon feeling that if I were you I would be bothered by. I would really want McGovern to win because of McGovern loses there's going to be a lot of young people and people been active in the anti-war movement. We're going to become very disillusioned and a lot of options which we've thought morally and ethically or close to us are selling in the open again when I think you're going to be disillusioned then they probably will come to think of it. Yeah I think I think you're going to see it out of this than ever the election's going to see an increase in. Terrorist activities on the part of the left. And it's I think Governor if you're governmentally in terms of maintaining some sort of social order it's very stupid. To force your opponents underground. It's very stupid to do. What makes you think they're underground. Because I know they're on and maybe the FBI or other agency would know the underground it's much safer to let him stay they haven't caught Mark word yet. Maybe they don't want to catch him.
Well maybe they knew it was easier to write a fugitive. Yes you know there's many a money don't song it may well be that three years ago they were underground and can't function very hard to function on the ground with the problems that Lennon found in making revolutions very hard to function on the ground you. You can't keep touch. And it may be that you're going to stop it if you if you're serious about stopping the left and stopping all this but it's not the way to do it is to stop the war to stop poverty guaranteed annual income. But you can also have positive Oh no the cat now is the point you want to see you want to study the body you want to stop the opposition to the system and you've got to change the system to take from it much like Franklin Roosevelt in just a minute ago that the left you can't talk about it in rational terms now you have let go rational problem end the war make everybody better off than they were before and very right then you'll get rid of the leftover leftist regiment that we wasn't going to respond or Ashwin the result of that is you isolate which you haven't done. If you isolate. The core the revolutionary core and the point
seems to me any any government from Bismark on. Was dealt effectively with the left has always done it by isolating. The extremity of the left. And that's exactly what the government here isn't doing going to help people function to ground because. They have been around I detected me not object I think Suni we turn to our panel professor nettle about our system festival of scientists you see and why you have a question why do you seem to see revolution more as this is directed at him at what doesn't rate it more as an art form an aesthetic experience rather than as a political action which personally I find both naive and dangerous. But the question really is this that you're concerned with justice and humanity but not with people you want to provide greater self-expression and freedom in the world but you're willing to suppress people's freedom to achieve this goal. You condemn the system for. Its lack of sensitivity yet you want him personalized revolutionaries to achieve its overthrow. Now don't you think that history reveals in general that revolutions
achieved by violence which produce great structural changes bring to power leaders who tend to be authoritarian. Charismatic and who tend to suppress the very liberties and freedoms. Would you think revolution would achieve. It's probably all true. But I don't think history has much effect on what people do. I feel like we're marching with history you said that one of your articles. That history's on our side always contradicting with those that want you and Charlie was Jim Buckley. That's one of the actions we march toward history on Mondays Tuesdays and Thursdays. Professor jarl of Mannheim I'd like to ask principally Mr. Raider but also Mr. Bae coined the term cultural revolution has really been bandied about a good deal today. And. The Cultural Revolution implies that there's a basic conflict between at least two different sets of values and and I would like to raise the question of whether. Particularly the United States today there is really such a basic basic. Conflict of values or
whether instead there's a disagreement over whether the the agreed basic values are being implemented properly. I think there were I think originally that the original. Stepping off point for all of us was the sense of disillusionment over commonly accepted values is one thing and from that. I think in the last decade. A set of all to an alternative value system has risen. And which is in conflict with the commanding. Values in this country. And it's that alternate system which produces subversives. Professor do you want to you want to answer that also means well I think there is a conflict in in terms of a cultural revolution in this country. It's a conflict which I think shows itself probably. Best in the fight on obscenity and pornography. And what's happened over the past three years in terms of the openness of sale of the massage parlors and so on. It raises a new the old question does a
society suffer when everything becomes open when everything becomes accessible in terms of sexuality. I think there does the government belong in the bedroom. The old controversy and I think there you have a very serious question which hasn't been resolved and may not be should we have sent to ship my good friend Irving Kristol is a believer in censorship of another which censor it make it underground not above ground. So if you want to that badly you've got to go looking for it but not as open. These are some of the questions I think which have not been resolved in terms of values in any democratic system. You know I think Mr. Buckman gotten off a little easy here. And that has to Thoma I mean let me try something on him. From one of your first question to Mr. Rader he said what do you mean by power to the people. And his answer I think was rather vague. But maybe I'd ask you the same question if not power to the people Power to whom and if
power to the people. Isn't that a real and serious problem now. As to how you achieve that. Yeah. If See if we're not using it as a slogan then I think it's a very serious question. One of the reasons I spent this many years I did in the trade union movement is I was very much interested in power working people. And you see I got a lot of. Teach in politics University Massachusetts my elbow. Power of the people in that sense is very important. I made a great discovery in the labor movement. There's nothing like getting somebody who hasn't got very much a 10 percent wage increase health and welfare program an opportunity for a kid through a scholarship program to go to a university. I began to learn the importance of bread and butter trade unionism for which many intellectuals will have a nice split level existence and take winter vacations while the summer ones find very contemptible. The young boy Joie in Paris during the 68 uprising the events of
May who felt so terrible that the workers didn't want to continue the general strike into a total revolution. You say you know but in a sense it seems to me that there is a kind of elitism in that response that. An aspect of the new left that I don't think. It's been brought out very clearly here I think is legitimately pointing toward him saying you know the emperor has no clothes or something of the meaning and meaning that. I think that there's a big difference that Lincoln never reconcile between government by the people and government for the people. And you're talking in a sense about government for the people no government by the people. The trade union is run it's the genny kind of a decent trade you by the people in the trade union. Well there are many mikes were on settlements. We know that maybe sometimes unfortunately and the choices their leaders are so gifted that have to change the choices and then this is so gifted they never have to change them. Like many. Delegates all the time they keep voting for it how about another you might say that yes
that's how. It has been overthrown and you know this is this is that this is a public message machine I think that the. I think that the notion of power of the people I find repugnant in the sense that I can't consider a of a civilized order. That is one in which the individual doesn't have a right if you give power to the people then you don't have things like the right to live up to the rights of the guy on the assembly line in Lordstown or something of this kind of thing. You see I mean I think that that there is a sense in which some greater for more participation in basic decision making process not just at the macro level of deciding about the warning at Naaman this kind of thing which I think will and then the free of the society the freer the actual choices. He has. One of the one of the reasons why we have such fluctuating employment figures is because we accept a frictional unemployment figures high five percent of these people changing jobs. Now the people who change jobs are not all because I have been fired from a job but they have been bid away or they are not interested in a job they don't like it was somewhere else as we do that America and the and I think this is the
way that one the one most eloquently asserts oneself as opposed to the kind of work that you describe. If in fact you find it tougher than whatever other reasons but I think that you're in a sense talking about it and not just in this statement but in things I've read of yours. The kind of freedom of the elephant dancing among the chickens and you're talking about two elephants dancing the chicken still aren't involved. Who the chickens you know all power to the chickens. Yeah you know what. Well it may be chickens that have a thing you're addressing yourself to his question while the American worker can certainly change jobs. He goes from being a pawn in one organization to a pawn in a second organization which could be argued has very little choice. What I believe not is talking about is restructuring the society in a way to give people more direct power. Has anybody done this by the way you have a lot of Yugoslavia you know some specific country with respect to our involvement with respect to worker involvement in factories where they evolve a factory in Gothenburg and Yugoslavia Sweden where the experiment
Oh now you are going to be in the lobby I see I did no work has come out about that mental fog. Look ahead it was generally assume that the costs are too high because you surrendered all of your political bill and in much the personal hands now you determine cause we can't let this Yugoslav nonsense go by that easily. Ok but how many seconds do we have to dispose of photos I guess you have to have if you have a minute to have to dispose of the workers councils in Yugoslavia don't have power over the control is exercised by bank loans interest rate just like in good capitalist countries. I've made a study of my I've been there I've visited them to see how much control over is by the workers when it comes to a control like shop stewards have control but to talk about control involved. What do you think you have to disaffection today in Yugoslav industrial production as it only nationalism in Croatia. You can't. The workers councils one of the myths which have been successful in giving liberals and liberals like is a way out this is a better kind of society I thought you were liberal in it like no I'm a a trade union reactionary politics.
Well Would any Would you concede Mr. Raider that that you can't have power for the people side by side with a bill of inalienable human rights. No I wouldn't concede that. Well I suppose the people decide to take away a right who wins when we tell you about a noble oids inalienable and I think when we we use the phrase part of it we're talking about. Several broad questions one is decentralization. One is the socialization of industry on a very local level. The introduction on this Semele line level in the smallest level of control of workers over their working conditions there was as far as humanly and it's totally possible to give people the power. To affect those institutions that affect their lives directly directly to him. That's all the whole point of personal freedom.
Yes and the whole the whole point was Asians but obviously somebody strikes the United Automobile Workers are frequently on those local working conditions not even on the wages front to assert their right over the job and production output quotas. That's the reason that the last GM strike lasted as long as it did was because you see we don't we don't believe you're going to have that you're really going to have that. Until the workers own the plants the people on the planet. It was do you get rid of a capitalist class. Well are you able to point to plants that are owned by the people for instance the coal mining plant in Great Britain in which there is a very detectable euphoria among the workers there that the people who work there say on the telephone companies don't know don't know. None in England like it or not I think his point about humans not to nationalize a lot of industries like you doesn't. You haven't taught I've been out to the agricultural implement manufacturing plant outside of Belgrade the work is the most disaffected in the world because what every time they vote do use the profits to build a swimming
pool they end up finding it impossible next year to get a loan to expand production. That's how the government gets even with them they have no control this is a work what is it and what the point is the point I'm making is that when you say all power of the people there's a little thing you forget the people are just a vague amorphous sent of the just sort of argument and they say they joined as an economic democracy is exercised primarily by mobility and through the marketplace is not a political as a way to build a swimming pool I say they should have the right exactly what sounds better of that. Except that when you but then you give an example of Workers Councils and you can solve via You're talking again about the same section the same dream that he was as Lenin said he sells a lot of US electricity will socialism. Were these awful if we're going to have the right to make misled don't give examples of I can often it's absolutely true. Absolutely he didn't he didn't he didn't it wasn't he no no one said like as in Yugoslavia Mr. Manheim at the risk of changing the topic I think I'd like to change the topic. Sure Mr. rater suggested that the Vietnam War and opposition to the
war was essentially an organizational issue for the new left and that I think leads him to another question which is. To what extent is the new left dependent on technology in particular communications technology for its organization and for its sustenance. I see I meant that I didn't mean that the. Opposition to the war was unreal and was immoral and didn't come out of an ethical. Sense of outrage deep and profound. Over a war we think is unjust. We're done with the creation of the verses of I remember and the war the war was the only issue we have at the moment we tried that. Could you create subversives if you didn't have you know you got a handsome technology. I don't I don't think I don't think in a in an industrialized country you can do. I think it's the act I think we need the access to the media that's where our problems at the moment. Is we don't get the access to the people you have a question. Yes at the risk of bringing out that form a topic I think what's really at the core of the problem here is the old Marxist. Question of the alienation
of man from his labor. And what we're talking about is some means of restoring freedom by making the individual feel he's doing something meaningful over which he has some degree of control. And if perhaps the Yugoslav example for a variety of reasons hasn't shown the promise that it might have. That's no reason to discard the baby with the bathwater as white and one could look at the Chinese example or we could look at to find that I can come up your books what really referred to is communitarian socialism. It was and even there you find in the kibbutzim and alienation of young people who want to go to the fleshpots of Tel Aviv. This is a president who have those rights not one of the provinces we talk about specific countries or systems one of maybe that man. May be the problem under any system and then from alienation is a problem under any system perhaps we may want a new man. Yeah we do need maybe a new man. But that may not be the new man that Marcu is or you have found for us that will that will be the new maybe will have to be a blogger who will
find an I-Thou relationship I don't know but maybe you have just about him. Exeunt. On the contrary I think that Google may have something in the in the sense of individual establishing a relationship with outside of himself. Outside of his own sexuality as you might feel it is since that's what the left is about. At least the student has had battled with as one of the triggers ons about this I just heard him do what you all went to the point it's about the search part for turn and supporting you by the search for truth I want a site that I suspect great a brain if you just. Missed a schneid you have a final question and I have one I think that the part of the romanticism that really gets me here is I think that you go back even further than Mr Buckley and historical epics and I mean that you know there's editing that answer and I think it was governor long once said to Leander Perec as you know Leon what you got and now the feds got the H-bomb and I think it's an appropriate question in terms of your talk about revolution here I mean what you're really talking about is this kind of
revolution is only going to see I think part a part of what we've learned to appreciate is the delicacy. Of. Highly technical post industrial. Countries America their credible vulnerability the most primitive of devices. When the Arabs sending those letters was what watch the vulnerability of the readonly guy goes you can stop you can stop you can stop New York City for example I want to have my place stop you know some supposing he was seized in the conspiracy. What would you lose Wall Street Mayor Lindsay. What happened I'm talking about you know what the country stopped moving. Gee this is one of the rowers I was replying to his point that the government has the H bomb. I think the 8 there was I think you reach a certain point of power where becomes irrelevant as it isn't in Vietnam that there is can you no longer became for Tiger there are commensurately of weaknesses. Thank thank you very much for a straight or thank you is to buy from and thank you gentle of the panel.
Printed transcripts of this discussion between William F. Buckley and Arnold by Sherman and Dotson Rader aren't available at a cost of 25 cents right firing line box 5 9 6 6. Columbia South Carolina 2 9 2 5 0. That's firing line box 5 9 6 6. Columbia South Carolina 2 9 2 5 0. Firing Line is produced and directed by Warren stable for the Southern educational Communications Association and is made possible with funds provided by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. NPR National Public Radio.
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Firing line
Hate America (Reel 2)
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