A Conversation with Chou En Lai (Reel 2)

As a member of the gloaming dying Shang-Chi sex party the great majority of them remain on the mainland. And so with these former officers and responsible members of the gloaming dying party they just disappeared into society and turned themselves into ordinary workers or office workers or something like that. As for those of the country's landlords and rich peasants had land of lighted up among the peasants they still remained in the countryside and they too were given a share of the land and they remained in the countryside and some of them may have even joined the commune. So if you add up the landlords rich peasants Boers was he and also the bourgeois intellectuals they amount to tens of millions several tens of millions in fact including family members over 50 millions. We couldn't send oil I said there is mail and I write and we give them to them. I don't want them over there. We couldn't wipe them all out. We're opposed to that. We're opposed to killing too many people won't do that. But I just say this to show that the old remnants are to be found everywhere in China. So our socialist revolution is not a revolution which can be completed upon the declaration of a formation of our government nor is it solved by changing the lease of ownership.

Of course the change of the means of ownership is a crucial question. But if we must also engage in transformation in respect to organization we might still revert to the old hand with respect the superstructure. Like what happened in the Soviet Union now that of course they don't admit it but many of our friends who come to China and they indeed feel that their way of life in the Soviet Union is not much different than that of the United States. Of course this may be going to a bit of extreme that happens anyway. May I ask a question. To work to what extent was the Cultural Revolution and to what extent did it happen and was it. I don't think so. And I can only say that in the general orientation we couldn't have anticipated that decision and we made a lot of

territory work for it. We go back even earlier times that is on the eve of the liberation. Our party did adopt that resolution but it was only in very simple terms. But specifically speaking it was after we had carried out the transformation in the three main fields that is agriculture handicraft industries and joint state private ownership of enterprise. So the whole country rejoiced then. But amid such rejoicing we noted some floods right. That is we saw the general orientation the general trend and desire of the mass of the people was it was socialism. But we also noted still quite a few persons who did not want the socialist draw or want to take a capitalist role and their example was Khrushchev. So this struggle in China too may be said to have started in 1906 the struggle started within the party and then it was the Great Leap Forward and some people who opposed it. But in the beginning they did not come out openly against the great leap forward but they adopted all sorts of means to set apart the great thing precisely at that time the Soviet Union withdrew all their experts

and our relations with the Soviet Union deteriorated. The premier spoke at length about Chinese economic problems. Here is a summary. Problem he said was industrialization which he called backward mechanization of Agriculture is even more backward. Food production is low in ratio to the population. He said that improving soil conditions and expanding areas of cultivation are the top agricultural priorities. Only 12 percent of the country's area is under cultivation. The Chinese gross national product is one hundred and twenty billion in terms of American dollars. Joe emphasized that there is a great potential for development and much needed for further development of industry and agriculture. As I see it is that we must continue like this for 20 or 30 years because of this China's preoccupation for the balance of the century will be on its domestic problems. But he

emphasized this does not mean that China will close its doors to the outside. He said that China and the Soviet Union for withdrawing U.S. aid in 1960 because it compel eyes of China to rely on its own resources. This completes our excerpts of the conversation in our central studio in Toronto. This is Jim Robertson with me is Morris Cutler. We are linked by special hookups to three cities for a discussion of the Premier's remarks and generally on the recent turn of events regarding China in the CBC studios in Edmonton is Chester running a Canadian diplomat born in China former Canadian chargé d'affaires in China who lived there until 1951. He was also Canadian High Commissioner to India in the studios of WGBH FM in Cambridge Massachusetts is Professor John K. fair bank director of the East Asian Research Center at Harvard University author of

many works one Chinese-American relations in the CBC studios in Windsor Ontario is Alan Whiting professor of political science and associates of the Center for Chinese Studies at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. He has worked in the American Consular Service. His last posting being deputy consul general in Hong Kong. In our journals studios Morris Cutler will open the discussion. Mr running if I may ask you the first question you had perhaps a more convivial meeting with AJo of the dinner prior to our visit. How would you compare what we have just heard from the premia with his chat with you. Well there were some there were much more similarity than there were differences. We spent a lot of our time talking about our past experiences. We spent a great deal of time talking about what happened in the Korean conference

when my estimation Joanne Lai put forth a proposal that most of us accepted. At the Korean conference and the fault was not with the Chinese that we did not succeed in agreeing to the terms of a peace treaty. And I know that I don't lie returned very disappointed to China because he felt that he had and we felt all of us felt with the exception of the United States and one or two others Britain France Canada. We were agreed that the terms that were offered were completely bare and that we could have had a peace treaty. This type of reminiscing we continued talking about and the possibilities of.

Doing something about it in the future then of course we didn't spend nearly as much time talking about the changes in the educational system because he didn't need to convince me that it was most important that the universities the schools should come into closer contact with the people and I agreed with him that that there is there's something much more fundamental something much more important in having a scientist who understands the problems that are uppermost in the in the minds of the people and how can he understand that and how can we deal with the priorities that that is is that is has been accepted in China.

How does he know what field he should concentrate in unless he has an understanding of the needs of the people of China. This is China's first priority and the scientists who understand this can make a much greater contribution when they concentrate in developing. And improving Chinese technology for example to solve the problems and I have seem I have seen what has been accomplished. For example in the Pearl River Delta the peasants themselves working with scientists and technicians have harnessed the tides so that they have enough electrical power for their lights and direct power or direct power from the from the turbine to preventing their middles and grinding the vegetables from the waste.

Vegetation form for big food and lifting the water without power lifting the water without electrical power but the power of the turbine lifting water aboard and for the negation of rice fields. Now this would never have been possible if these scientists and technicians had not understood the problems of the people. The greatest need they had there was more electrical power and power do you negate their their feelings and bringing the water that was available up to the level of the rice fields. You know you don't see contribution is a direct result of the universities of the scientists coming into contact with the people the people of the factories the people in the in the in the commune the people in the universities the bureaucrats the diplomats and the whole world civil service the the the Communist Party and the revolutionary committees all of these people come together

and as a result of consensus they meet the problems of the people now perhaps I was welcome long enough of course we had there were a great many other things that you spoke about in reply to some of the very good questions. Minister perhaps that he dealt with that we also discussed and they may come up later in the discussion. Thank you sir. Professor Furman was there anything in what Joe and I had to say that surprised you. Well yes and I thought they fascinated the way he really got the I think you know I'm an historian and I look back on it you see the poet and Drake is the custom to being led by the people that have a period of learning so they can use to be the old scholar official class and now it's the Communist Party or what's left of it under my own show. And if I may say so this is both the glory and the great burden of the Chinese people. This whole updating of statecraft it seems to me the

management of things. Which Mr Jalan lie represents you leave the people of China in a certain way of doing things at the same time why are these people so poor. Why is the country with all this and all these problems to overcome. Was partly because they have have their way in the past. They stop to look too long. They are still stuck with it seems to me the necessity of a great collective effort by consensus as Mr. running was just saying. All these things that we see them do are so admirable and yet in the picture there is still a problem of their backwardness. This is one of the great mysteries of studying China. It's certainly fascinating to have your own life voice in the background there and to realize that this traditional way is still in an updated fashion going ahead. Professor Whiting much of what is going on in tennis today stems from what happened during the Cultural Revolution and you were in Hong Kong at the time of the Cultural Revolution.

What is your reaction to Joe's answer to the question of whether the Cultural Revolution was spontaneous or directed by the leadership or did he answer the question at all to your satisfaction. I think that Premier John lies one of the most skilled politicians in the world today and he knew very well that he ducked that question. He went to other questions with considerable detail and expanded with more information than is come out of the Chinese press. But on this particular one I think he didn't want to focus on the events of 1066 to 68 and he went in a tour dories all over the first 18 years of Chinese history and spoke almost not at all about the Cultural Revolution. Sitting in Hong Kong we watched the turmoil go from spasm to spasm and wow as he said the general outline may have been foreseen by Mao in 1066. It's impossible to believe that he saw the role that the army was going to be called upon to play in January of 67 when fighting was beginning to break up between workers and Red

Guards or that the army itself would split in almost into civil war. The major Yangtze city of Wu Han where in July of 1067 the Chinese Air Force circled the People's Liberation Army barracks for two days calling on local troops and local commanders to respond to P. king's authority where the East China fleet steamed up the river in the Chinese version of gunboat diplomacy only it was their gunboats against their own troops again in one thousand sixty eight. The Red Guards were mercilessly. Put down by the Army after anarchism and violence escalated until the Hong Kong Harbor was becoming the daily scene of corpses floating down from cities up the Pearl River. No I don't believe that that could have been that unforseen and indeed I would suggest that there is a curious absence of political visibility in China today. There is no chief of state there is no foreign minister. There is no chief of staff. These are held by either acting

appointments or non appointments for the National People's Congress has been rumored now for 18 months. Presumably it will occur before President Nixon goes so that he will have a legitimate counterpart in Lyon I remind you is not the chief of state as Premier. The absence of the parties Congress is at a number of provincial levels although the national party congress was an April over a year ago. All suggests a certain amount of disarray indeed seeking itself the most important city lacks a revolutionary committee. Why. Presumably because the factionalism in the struggles and the tensions have not really sorted themselves out yet. I think that while Dr running is quite correct in focusing on the payoffs in education and in public works that have come from the Cultural Revolution in this effort a consensus building consensus. It's at the top still doesn't really exist and if I could return to profess a fairy bank in Boston I presume Professor Farah bank like many of us who were

surprised by Mr. Nixon's announcement a couple of weeks ago few people expected that Washington would move so far and so fast in its preparation with Peking. Can you explain for us perhaps the president's haste in this matter. Well he's worried about the next election which is coming I suppose as a reason for haste. Joanne Lai said something in his statement about the initiative coming from both the center and the local region. The Chinese state is indeed set up that way. It is not a dictatorship from the top of the country is a tiny egg as we all know. And Mr. runnings comments on that I think are very appropriate. Local people have to take initiatives they have to follow out the great opportunities before them in this process however you still have the question of great nationalism wanting to have a central government which is that of all of China. The whole concept of one China is very important to these people and we have to recognize that in the United States one China means for example to unify China without civil war without foreign invasion presumably. And so in the case of

Taiwan. Now we have a an accounting really history catching up with the United States and United States policy. Taiwan can no longer be a rival to Peking. And it's plain that it is part of the same Chinese realm that is on the mainland. There's only one China and that's the China of the Chinese people as they as they can see it themselves. On the other hand we have to recognize that Taiwan has been quite independent is under a separate government and for some time is likely to remain under some kind of separate administration. It's possible for that to be called autonomy I think within the overall Chinese sovereignty of the mainland. Mr. Nixon when he goes to Peking has to have a formula on that in fact he's being urged to put it out next week. He's waiting for the people in Taiwan to come out with their reaction to the situation what they will do about the United Nations membership that they now have in general it seems to me we have to recognize that this country of China is not just another

nation. And I was fascinated to have Joe and I say that all nations should be equal certainly Monaco and other little countries can't be held equal to the People's Republic. The fact is that China is something more than just a nation it's also a culture. And it is in some ways the most patriotic of all these groupings of people around the world because it is both a cultural and a national political entity. Consequently we're dealing with a very powerful situation not one that is so expansive except in ideas perhaps but one that we have to study as different from ourselves. And what Mr. Ronnie was saying about his observations indicates for example the tremendous capacity they have for using technology today but it still leaves one wondering how is this political entity to go along in the future. How is that to take its place in the international world. Mr. Nixon is working on that problem when he goes to Peking.

The bringing of this more than Nation this whole civilization of China into some more institutional contact with the rest of the world. Professor Whiting where does Vietnam fit into all of this into Mr. Nixon's plans to go to Peking. Well if I were to speculate. At all and that is pure speculation I would suggest that the haste may have been occasioned in part by the embarrassment he was feeling from the new Vietnamese proposal of July 1. For many months President Nixon been saying that the United States would not announce and would not indeed complete withdrawal until we had guarantees of our prisoners of war being returned from Hanoi. And this wasn't merely something to be discussed this was something to be explicitly settled. Oh Hanoi took him at his word on the 1st of July and seven point proposal and said yes indeed we are quite prepared to commit ourselves to the p o w withdrawal or rather in return as you announce your withdrawal and carry that out. He was under

tremendous pressure from the Congress in Washington and perhaps from some allies as well to make a reply or to enter secret negotiations or to do something two weeks later his announcement washed all that pressure out literally. He was then going to make a journey for peace to Peking and immediately speculation thought the Chinese might play some part to help the Americans get their objectives rather than Hanoi get its objective. Realizing euphoria gone too far the White House started put down some dampeners quite well-thought out ones I thought pointing out that that really wasn't to be expected in the immediate future. If Vietnam in a larger context is relevant it is that the expectation beaking has clearly shows withdrawal to be pretty far down the line by the time of the president's visit. And Joanne Lai has indeed since this announcement made this explicit in a conversation with American graduate students when he said more American pressure is available to end the war in Vietnam than to improve relations with us. And indeed we think that the withdrawal of U.S.

forces will come Cryer to any normalization of relations between the United States and ourselves. I don't think in other words the United States has won any points in Hanoi because of its planned trip to Peking with the Peking would be prepared to dump Hanoi even if there were other kinds of payoffs. So to speak in the U.S. relationship. And there's no other payoff in the U.S. relationship except a modest one viz a viz the Soviet Union. I think the main payoff for us if a bank is already pointed to it's in Taiwan it's in Taiwan that the greatest political reaction has occurred so far and it's in Taiwan the United States will have to make the major concessions if indeed it is going to normalize relations with the king. I was greatly impressed by Professor Fairbanks remarks. Respecting the importance of an international relationship between between China and the rest of the world the most important relationship

in international relationship today in the world is the relationship between China and the United States. And this is why I am elated about the. President Nixon's announcement that he as a result of expressing any wish to go has accepted Joran lys invitation to go to China. I don't think this is going to solve all the problems between the United States and China and in one fell swoop. But to me it's tremendously encouraging that the United States at long last is taking any new deal to do something about its relations with China. Which has been such a catastrophic failure during the past 20 years that the United States the president of United States is prepared to take this bold step is most encouraging and I

suppose that I am doing a great deal of wishful thinking about what will be achieved. But at the same time I recognize the tremendous gap that still exists between them especially with respect to Taiwan. And I am I would I would anticipate that the ground which is been prepared by Mr. Kissinger in Peking must have it must have some sort of possible modus vivendi must have been discussed to make it possible for Joran lied to extend an invitation for the president of the United States to accept the invitation to go out there. In respect to Taiwan. GARY BANKS is completely correct when he says that. That this is the great problem and that you can no longer have

to China's or any aspect do to change it. If the United States has decided to recognize the government of the People's Republic of China in Peking as the song government of China and and recognize that Thailand is is a part of China and withdraw from interfering in the Civil War we did not end in 1949 because the problem of Taiwan has not been solved. It is not impossible that the Chinese would be prepared to live to take time to solve this problem and not insist upon the problem being solved immediately. If the United States is prepared to accept the the government of Peking as the sole government. China and Except it's being seated in the United Nations then then and not insisting

upon the nationalist government in Taiwan also to be seated in the United Nations because that is impossible for both parties. Neither one will accept that. Now we've had we've had the Nationalist government on Taiwan representing China all of this time. Eight hundred million people are said between seven hundred fifty and eight hundred million people have been represented. And this is one of the great problems of the world. And something must be done to solve it. I'd like to ask Professor Fairbank if you'd care to speculate on how much of an American presence in Southeast Asia China would be prepared to accept. Well let me just refer to what Mr. running said Mr. Whiting before him and that connection to it seems to me the key thing aside from Southeast Asia is the American military presence in Taiwan. And as I read the situation and I wonder what these other gentlemen think the American military

presence in Taiwan. Can continue to have the form of a defense commitment as a possible transition situation looking toward an unknown future. Providing there is no our offensive possibility there. In other words the American withdrawal of its 7th Fleet patrol. The American disengagement from military activity which the nationalist forces still carried on in certain ways of surveillance and raids and the like. This needs to be accepted by the American government. If it's to do any business with the king. And yet this does not mean that we simply pull out of time one relations but it is not for us to make the decision for the Chinese people as to exactly how Taiwan should be part of one China whether it should actually have peeking at ministers in Taiwan. That is a domestic Chinese problem it seems to me that we certainly can't settle them outside

and it's possible for Taiwan to go on as running its own show being autonomous. Whether or not you call it an independent state in fact it can be autonomous and still be part of the Chinese realm. I'd like to ask Mr. running if you could tell us whether during his recent visit to China he had any inkling that events would have moved as fast as they have. No none whatever and none whatever as far as the president of United States is concerned. But I did notice when I was there that there were great there was a great deal of interest in President Nixon. Joe Nye asked me about him and we discussed him and asked me about him and we discussed him and many Chinese leaders did and now with the hindsight I have and I can understand why they were so interested in the in Mr. Nixon. And it was it impressed me is that

none of them said that it was impossible it would be impossible to deal with you. Gentlemen thank you very much for your participation. The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation has presented a special documentary based on the conversation between Canadian ministers younger and prettier Joanne Lai of the People's Republic of China. Participants included just a running

former Canadian to fair in China and high commissioner to India John K. Fed bank director of the East Asian Research Center at Harvard University Alan Whiting associates of the Center for Chinese Studies at the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor recording of the conversation in Peking and added material. Morris Cutler this special program a conversation with Joe in live China originated with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and was brought to you by National Public Radio.