About science; About international cooperation in space

This is about science produced by the California Institute of Technology and originally broadcast by station KPCC Pasadena California. The programs are made available to the station by a national educational radio. This program is about international cooperation in space with host Dr. Albert Hibbs and his guest Dr. Harrison Browne. Here now is Dr. Hitz. Scientific research was at one time the property of a single scientist working in his own laboratory usually financed out of his own pocket. But these projects have now grown far beyond the limits of the work of a single man or even a single laboratory for that matter even a single institution. They become not only national in many cases but in many more cases international in their scope. In response to this a number of scientific disciplines of organized large international unions to help correlate organize and otherwise manage some of these projects. This has grown to such a point where now there is something

called the International Council of scientific unions which helps to correlate the work among the various subhuman humans each one of which is concerned with a particular branch. We have now to talk to us today. Professor Harrison Brown of Cal Tech a professor of geochemistry whose research background includes the chemical nature of meteorites. More recently some of the work on the distribution of asteroid orbits and a long background in the Geo chemistry of the earth itself. But beyond that he is the foreign secretary of the United States National Academy of Sciences and vice president of the International Council of scientific unions the ICFTU commonly called Exoo. It is about these latter activities the projects and all of the other international projects that we're here to talk today. Harrison What what are some of the projects which has been involved in recently. I believe well that the they project which is more in the

public mind than others is the International Geophysical Year which actually stretched over about five years which was a very complicated and wonder of just wonderful collaborative effort. It involved geophysicist from practically every nation in the world. And from that. Important new results were brought forward three very useful data centers in various parts of the world have been put together. I think generally speaking the International Geophysical Year is the most important the most successful international collaborative effort in this game right. This gave rise to the space program also didn't have the first satellites were sent up in its attempts to contribute to this.

That's right. It was by agreement within the framework of the International Geophysical Year that we started our first satellite project. And I believe technical a Russian satellite Sputnik 1 was a part of the International Geophysical Year program. And this council of scientific Union's International Council I was involved in in what way and there's today a think it up or run it or how do you get into it. Well actually the International Geophysical Year was conceived by the by the council and operated by the council largely because that transcend the interests of many. One of the of the component unions. The council itself attempts to do all projects and programs which are larger than can be handled by any one union. What kind of unions are members of this council. Well long ago scientists and particular disciplines felt the

need for for getting together with their fellow scientists in their particular disciplines and I believe one of the first unions to be formed by the way they bear absolutely no relationship to labor. These are hard are just groups of scientists who may never go on strike. They never go on strike. That's right. But one of the first groups formed was the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry. Another was the International Union of Pure and Applied Physics. One can go on and on there is one for geo physics one for astronomy one for bio chemistry. And today there are 15 such unions they have all become very large complicated and they all exist under an umbrella corporation called the International Council of scientific unions which attempts to handle problems that the various unions have in common and there are many problems which are in common.

Well is this idea of international regard for science something it's sort of new part of the current general interest in science since the Second World War or does it have some history before this. Well actually of course science has really always been international in scope. Certainly I'm outta luck. One story I like to relate is that of the transfer of a document of Copernicus from Poland to the west. Special permission was given for the for the courier to go through battle lines. There was a war going on at the time and he was given permission to take a Copernicus document to the west a hundred years ago something like that. I remember also that when German franc one wrote a very strong letter. Giving an order to the effect that although we were at war with

England that Captain Cook's ship which had gone up from England for scientific purposes to the South Seas and indeed around the world I should not in any way be molested that the ship was out to to increase human knowledge. And it was in no way involved with the war or with politics. And we should leave it alone. Well there's this idea that scientific research can be dissociated from political problems something that can be handled today with all of the rather pressing political problems that we face such as the conflict between the Israel and the Arab States or India and Pakistan how can these problems be handled by a scientific group. Well it certainly is not easy particularly when you take into account the fact that all of these these unions and the International Council of scientific unions

basically are supported by governments in part. They are supported by which are paid by governments and I might say that the governments give value to get value out of us they. They receive information which they would not have not otherwise get they they get services which they would not otherwise get. A part of the dues are also paid by by by UNESCO's which is an intergovernmental organization. I wish to think that these governments would have a certain feeling theyd want to have some say in what happens of course and this is one of the problems in that the scientific community although the scientists in any given scientific community are patriotic citizens and they respect and admire and love their individual governments usually. They never will nevertheless feel that it is terribly important that scientists be able to communicate that

cooperative ventures be indirect taken by scientists working together in spite of political differences which might exist between their governments and indeed thus far the unions in the International Council of scientific unions have been pretty successful. Achieving these objectives. Well I can imagine when it's something like exchanging data or sending publications from one man to another across national boundaries this would be possible to work out. What happens when a a citizen of a government that's not recognized by another government wants to come to a meeting. What do you do about something like that. Well this of course is always a problem. I should stress that has the philosophy that that scientist no matter where they live in a matter what country they might live in it should be able to get together with other scientists and as a result the membership in

the unions transcends that of the United Nations it is considerably broader. It includes as well as South Vietnam North Vietnam it includes as well as South Korea North Korea. It includes Taiwan. Unfortunately it does not include mainland China and that is their problem not ours. The arm is extended. What is happening there is that. Every time Taiwan has been elected to a new EU and we we we encourage her to apply for membership. Every time she applies as you know and is elected the mainland Chinese withdraw. I hope that they will reverse that if this is their decision not to go to their decision and not ours. Now membership is one thing. Getting to a meeting is another. Let's talk about meetings here in the United States.

For a while we went through a very difficult period. This was during the McCarthy era a very difficult problem when Russia had great difficulty coming to the United States. We have course have strict rules and regulations involving involving anyone who has been a member of the Communist Party. And of course this includes practically the whole eastern European sentiment. And a substantial number from other countries as well. For example in France a few members of the resistance movement during the war became for one reason or another are members of the party and have since ceased being members of the party. So that our rules against immigration or visits of such personnel sort of automatically were applied. Right right. So we we went through a very dark period for a while it looked as though we would never be able to have. Meetings we would never be able to extend invitations to our colleagues from

overseas to meet in the United States what would this mean the meetings themselves couldn't be held here. Well the unions have a rule that meetings should not be scheduled in countries where people will be barred on the basis of their nationality. We do of course respect the the the power of a country to try to bar individuals on specific ground searches known criminal records or or the possibility that they might be espionage agents or what have you. But we do not want them barred just because they happen to be citizens of a particular country which we do not happen to recognize. What does this mean that do that the actual meeting would would could not be held in such a view.

I know I was under the circumstances it would mean that the meeting could not be held here but I must say that in the in recent years our government has behaved in a very unlike me way in this respect and now we have reached the point where I don't believe we have had a case in the last couple of years where a scientist who wishes to participate in an international conference here in the United States has been banned just purely on the grounds of his being of a particular nationality. I see well what what are some of the nationalities that were affected by this before and that are now. Well I would say that perhaps the most important and most difficult cases but not of these Germans. As you know we do not recognize East Germany as a as a as a country of the German Democratic Republic as they call it. And. There are very complicated regulations involving the travel of these

Germans in the West being that none of the neato concretes recognize Germany. The None of them will stamp a visa in an East German passport. So for each German to get to NATO countries such as the United States or England or Canada or or to Italy. He must first go to West Berlin. And they're applied to the Allied travel office for what is called a temporary travel document and then the price of a passport and that will take the place of a passport and then he goes to the embassy of a particular country he wishes to visit and applies for a visa which will be stamped in this temporary passport now. Then the issuance of a temporary travel documents is a need to a problem. And shortly after the

construction of the wall which separates East Berlin from West Berlin. And what I want out to be a fact and this was NATO ruling that this was sort of a retaliate to measure. That the temporary travel documents would be given except in certain special special cases. And this seriously affected the science and scientists couldn't get into the certain special cases. No no the special cases involve primarily trade missions businessmen and the like. So for a while it looked as though our meetings couldn't be held in a dull country. This is on the part of x you know no defensive. The East German regime or anything like that. It was just the philosophy that it should be possible for Bona mana feed the East German scientists to participate in genuine scientific discussions

and and the the the organization held firm to others. So this problem now transcended just American attitudes it was no problem of several nations. Oh yes yes indeed. Well finally the rule was relaxed still that scientists could participate and deed ironically for a while it looked as though they are the only places we could have meetings. Aside from two or three locations in the West we're an Eastern European country. In the meantime they would let in West German scientists and they would lead in western myself. And as but we wouldn't let an East German scientist but. I should say that this this whole situation was complicated by by a multiplicity of exclusion laws. When you look at the at the Arab-Israeli situation the East

German West German situation the Mainland China Taiwan and then the Taiwan versus the Soviet Union then the South African situation which had tremendous political impact of course in the South Asia particularly India. And of the USSR the world was rapidly becoming uninhabitable for the first time to think meetings. Now you have to add to that the fact that you've got to have hotel rooms when you have a meeting. I just by way of illustration would like to point out that at the last meeting of the International Union a biochemist which was held in New York from which we hosted. We had leases on the Americana Hotel in The New York Hilton before they were even holes in the ground while they were still old buildings and we had leases on the entire hotel our 7000

biochemist descended upon New York from all over the world 2500 some odd visas had to be given including 13 to East Germans. When Cuban came although we don't recognize Cuba we have no relations. Q So even though San Salvador might have been willing to hold a meeting of this type there is no place to put the people when they came. That's right you got to have hotel rooms. As a result the the International Council of scientific unions took on a very important step. I think it formed a very special committee which is chaired by an eminent Swedish scientist by the name of her lesson. This committee is called the Committee on free circulation of scientists and it stresses the non political nature of it suing the unions and it asks that all invitations to meetings conferences of all sorts commision meetings be referred to

it before they are accepted. And this special committee then explores with the government in question. The likelihood of it submitting all individuals for example. Now I really don't mean all individuals I mean the likelihood of their not excluding people on the grounds of nationality. Again the governments do have the right to exclude people on legitimate grounds for being criminals or the likelihood that they might engage in political propaganda activity and so forth. In any event this was applied. Last year the General Assembly was held in Bombay when the invitation was was received we made. We had exploratory discussions with the Indian government and made sure that South Africans would not be excluded from this meeting. And it was possible to arrange

this. Oh yes yes. And we also secured an agreement that they would not exclude Pakistanis from the meeting. And Simelane did the meeting then take place is one that is already joyous joyous to them and the meeting took place. How were the South African and Pakistani scientists received. Well the South Africans were received Well the Pakistanis chose not to send anyone but that was their problem not a problem. We regret the fact that that they did not permit their scientists to attend and that is the other side of the coin. Of course you know we we feel that this is a two way street and that it is no not only a question of permission to get into a country for a meeting. It is a question of permission to leave a country in order to get to a meeting in another country. And this particular committee on free circulation is working on that problem and it was a very interesting composition it includes a representative from the Soviet Academy.

I represent our own academy. We have a representative from the. From the French Academy and one from the Royal Society One Well speaking of these representatives are individual scientists members of this council of scientific you know what is what is a member of council. Well the individual unions themselves the members are really hearing organizations. Our academy in the United States adheres to all of the unions we are the adhering body ICC the Royal Society in London is the adhering body for the UK and so far in all of the Union in all of these as you know with respect to the International Council the council is made up of the of the unions themselves. But the unions all by themselves are impotent. They they have to have help. Money for one thing they said when they need money. And so the

council is made up of national members as well as unions. And it's sort of an oddball arrangement where again it's cademy these are customarily members of the right it is the same the same academy as your Research Council. What they were doing at that money orders in ASH where does the U.S. National Academy of Sciences get the funds it needs in order to pay its share of the support what we do. We write a letter to the State Department and there is a line item in the budget for a dude to the various unions and do it. And the State Department then on our request goes ahead and pays the if this is a line item in the budget so called It was actually vote on this. Oh yes and Congress recognizes the importance of this. They have established several time ceilings. For four do I believe the ceiling is now

about one hundred fifty thousand dollars a year for the United States touch for all the union just for you. SEE FOR ALL THE UNION Jandek. And I had to testify last year before the subcommittee of the House Committee on Foreign Affairs getting the dues ceiling increase because the dues like like everything else the cost of everything else happen to be going up. Well you mentioned that who was involved in the organisation of the International Geophysical Year what are the kinds of projects all there are. There are many many international collaborative ventures Bret's the most. The most interesting and the largest at the moment is the international biological program. This is a major effort which is now just in the planning stage to get a a sim optic view a view and

a certain period of time. The productivity of the earth and all of its aspects all over the world. Biological productivity biological productivity and the same primarily of Agriculture as agriculture forests the flora and fauna of all sorts and the oceans as well. And virtually every country in the world is collaborating on this. SECRETARY It has been established in London with full time people who are coordinating the work. This is a wonderful program from the point of view of being able to get the involvement in the very real involvement of scientists and developing countries. The Nigerians have a major program the Brazilians have a major program the Peruvians are involved and all in all it it's really turning out to be a very exciting program

largely from the point of view of determining what the potentialities of the tropical parts of the world are. Well. This is this deliberate action on the tropical portion. No it just happens that way. This is the area of the world that we least know and that's where the major emphasis is being placed with scientists from the United States in England and Western Europe and the USSR collaborating with their colleagues in Nigeria and Tanzania and Brazil and so forth on multiplicity of very complex problems that can only be handled in this cooperative way. I recall that some of the. Overall studies of the earth's agricultural productivity usually have listed most of the tropical regions as essentially non productive agricultural point of view.

They are certainly none productive at the present time. I believe that they can be productive given enough research. There are just simply we simply do not know enough yet about. About the tropics in order to be able to grow things that are. This doesn't mean we never will. I think we can learn how to utilize the tropics so the 6 to project is one wave. Sounds like a pretty big way in fact of getting out some of this knowledge. That's right. What else do they get into. Well one program that emerged right after the International Geophysical Year was the Indian ocean expedition and it was a very exciting venture. Where ships from 20 nations through virgin on the Indian Ocean this is the least known of our oceans. They converged on it during that year and carried out a coordinated effort so that today we really knew a tremendous amount about the Indian Ocean.

It's been an exciting program to see the Russian ships and American ships and British ships. All together in this notion where they took aboard his trainee and his collaborator. Scientists from countries bordering the Indian Ocean who had desires to work and desires to to learn things but who had no ships to go on. How well have the objectives worked out to the extent that there is free exchange of information from or from some of the East European countries or from Russia where traditionally it's been very hard to get information. All these barriers are breaking down and they're breaking down really remarkably rapidly now. When you consider how things were shortly after the last war. Actually now we have had situations where Russia sort of worked on American ships and Americans that worked on Russian ships in or calibrating their equipment so they can be absolutely certain that they're measuring

the same things in the same kinds of numbers have to the measurements are done do they exchange the data though yes I would say that the that the data exchange goes goes quite smoothly indeed. And again we have these data centers which are used by by all of the nations involved. There are of course your bureaucratic hindrances of one sort or another. Occasioned by just the very nature of bureaucracies but on the whole I would say that the data exchange in oceanography with the Russians are doing quite well. And certainly this is true generally in the area of geophysics terrace and thank you very much for joining us today and telling us about international cooperation and scientific research. This was about science with host Dr. Albert Hibbs and his guest Dr. Harrison Brown of the California Institute of Technology. Join us

again for our next program when two more members of the Cal Tech faculty will discuss a subject of interest about science is produced by the California Institute of Technology and is originally broadcast by station KPCC in Pasadena California. The programs are made available to the station by the national educational radio. This is the national educational radio network.