The World of Education; #4 Education in the Soviet Union and #5 International Educational Link - Gambia and Great Britain

The world of education and in the studios of the BBC in London. This is Andrew joins. This week education in the Soviet Union for over 50 years. Schoolchildren in Russia and its allied republics have been taught that their very presence in the classroom is a revolutionary importance. The subjects they study the methods their teachers use are all measured against the eventual aim of realizing the perfect socialist society. How is this produced a fundamental change in educational policy. That's the question I put to our Moscow correspondent Daniel Coonan commie propaganda. Thought so had her long term aim is largely irrelevant and even the most industrious people fainting critics can look that he comes in at the Sauvage educational and has knowledge of what is being done is one of the truly great achievements of the Soviet state. If interest is banished in beach I'll get his schooling starting at the age of seven. The immediate obvious education not much the

same as that of the more advanced nations of the West. To introduce secondary education for all. Take English reading age to 17. A prime minister was because think in terms of 24 coming to the country Congress in April. This would be done in the next idea period. Because he can we be able to see in the 75 percent of the working people in the south and then the 50 percent in the country had taken three or higher education. Cation want and thinking and education this is the plan for the next five years. And this of course thinks economic able and will sit with the leadership apparent wish to make some good society capable of addiction to an increasingly complex and highly technical within it has been feeding the fish. Because I plan to train you know. Including a technology. The quality of teaching it.

We had qualified people to the profession to really think there is an average of about 20 percent from September. What about the continuity of educational policy in the Soviet Union. Looking at the years before and after the revolution young are subsets of BBC commentator on Soviet affairs. That is a good deal of continuity. The bleak team just after the revolution. But since then and as I said in 1930s and now there is a great deal of similarity between the methods of education today in Soviet schools and the methods of education in schools in Russia before the revolution and you will find that very frequently Soviet education alist with a great deal of respect. Quote the works of Russian education a list of before the revolution so that that continuity of spirit the continuity of.

Of methods the continuity of teaching the child. These really have to a very large extent but he main asked me when even before the revolution. What about the educational structure itself. What the children actually study in Russian schools. Dr Brian Holmes of the Institute of Education in London makes regular visits to Russia to study educational practice. Well first of all the curriculum throughout the eight or ten years school is a fairly broad one. It probably derives from the 18th century encyclopedia view that the curriculum should take in as many subjects as possible. But obviously when a child first goes to school he learned Russian language arithmetic and so on. The three Rs generally speaking plus a little history and so on. And then in the middle school this is after the fourth grade he extends it so the chemistry physics and so on come in of course always mathematics. And finally in the ninth and tenth

grades. He'll take a broad curriculum but will begin to specialize. Perhaps a little more in mathematics or physics or chemistry. The overall balance is towards the sciences and mathematics. The Russian educationists were influenced in the 18th century undoubtedly by some of the French encyclopedias and their curriculum theory suggested that they should have 10 11 12 subjects emphasizing instead of the classical languages Latin and Greek. Modern languages and emphasizing the natural sciences mathematics physics chemistry and biology. And I think the absence in the Russian schools of the Western European classical tradition as allowed the Soviet educators to build on this 18th century tradition. How much scope is there for self-expression by the child how much is he encouraged at an early age to use his imagination. Well I think basically. As materialists they believe

that knowledge can be acquired through sound effect methods of inquiry. And this means on the whole that once the truth has been discovered using these methods there is really no reason to debate it. Makarenko Syria in the 1930s was that the child should develop through working within a collective within a group and recently discussion has turned on how is it possible to encourage the individual child and to develop his creativity while still retaining the power of the collective of the group. But most of the people who go with me from this country and visit the kindergartens think their way of training young children is very formal. The they are introduced to reading and writing at a fairly early age there are very little creative activity goes on and our view is that this is rather restricting but increasingly for example at this stage children are now encouraged

to play more freely and do less formal work at this stage and in the sciences there is much more experimental work to be seen. Individual experiments by children in the classrooms using small equipment which is typical of English science but wasn't typical 10 years ago of Russian science teaching in the middle school and in the office. Joyce Freeman is a lecturer of London's Maria grey College of Education. She recently visited the Soviet Union to study the teaching of her own subject mathematics. And when I spoke to her she compared standards with those in the West. Well I would say that the standard is certainly comparable. I saw 15 year olds and I also saw some older boys doing what would be an A-level course here. And the work was sent was certainly of the same sort of standard. But again it was. Then match of class conducted by the teacher and the children all working at the same

pace and it was all very silent. There was very little discussion. And the children didn't speak to each other which very much surprised me. A situation I think you wouldn't find over here. What about techniques use of computers. Well they're certainly very interesting computer education. And in the senior forms and in the special schools which they do have the mathematics they are doing a lot of computer education and bringing in specialists from research institutes and other institutes like this you know to teach the children they are taking this very seriously indeed. How early are the children themselves encouraged to specialize. I think not sure about 14 or 15. They do insist that all secondary school children are learning mathematics until the end of their career they place great emphasis on this. We did ask them about changes to what we called modern mathematics and they said they are thinking about this but

they don't want to make the change too quick play and they feel that a compromise is better than a complete change where the more progressive schools in the West do set logic inequalities linear programming has only just started to come in. They're very wary about going over whole heartedly to these new aspects of the way that it's sometimes service to greater dominance of the natural sciences in the subjects studied. Would YOU DID YOU FIND THIS. Well in the schools I think there is a great emphasis on the natural sciences and on language teaching things like art and sport and drama very much kept his after school activities in the past and their palaces and the unconscious Molly which are of course the youth organizations to which I think something like 99 percent of the children do belong. Now what about the education of the teachers themselves teacher training. How is that viewed.

Well they seem to be very matched to systems at the moment. The teachers for the younger children are trained in the pedagogical Institute and for the older children in the universities. But we did find that everybody assured us that in service training for teachers something like every two every five years was compulsory. A large proportion of school children said to be as high as 40 percent go on from secondary school yet further study. What sort of institutions do they go to Doctor homes. They go into several types of institution first of all into the universities and there are a few of these I think 40 or 45 of these have all the faculties and the work is rather theoretical although introduced into every subject is the idea of how to teach it so they acquire some competence in the teaching of the subject as well as in the subject matter. Or they can go into a very wide range of. Institutes which are either

Polytechnic or institutes in here they specialize in engineering or in science or some form of engineering shall we say or into the pedagogical Institute and there they study in-depth particular subjects but at the same time they train to be teachers and a very very large number of these Institute either Polytechnic or Engineering Institute of pedagogical Institute and other universities. How concentrated is the specialization there. Not very specialized really compared with specialization. A fairly broad curriculum still and they tend to major in one or two subjects so there's a comparison perhaps with the universities in the United States will very much oh yes. Model light is a student of Russian at sari University. She recently came back to Britain after an academic year spent studying linguistics at Moscow State University. How did she find that language studies compared with Western methods.

I think that an techniques are rather more backward than I was. They do study foreign languages a great deal and very successfully because people who speak English for example speak far better than any English person going to Russian or Russian speaking Russian. And a large number of children learn English. They also learn French and German. I think those are the major foreign languages that are taught there one can learn Spanish and one could learn Chinese as humans too. Now your fellow students the people who are working alongside your law school State University whether going on to teach themselves some of them were others were going into research and still others didn't know what they were going to do. Those who were going on to teach perhaps at primary or secondary level. What would you say their feelings about the Russian education system. What they think they minded the fact that after getting their qualification they would have to go and teach at a place of the states to sing for three years and a lot of them were very worried about this but I don't think there are any other reasons. That is the atmosphere in Moscow State University

certainly is far more relaxed than the university atmosphere in England. The people don't feel the tensions and the pressures as we do of needing to achieve an achieve splendidly. Every single year they seem to take it far more naturally and in a far more relaxed fashion. Finally I asked Dr. Holmes in what way he felt that educationalists in the West could learn from the different system being applied in the Soviet Union. The main thing is they do a great deal of research. They disseminate the findings of research through the institute associated with the Academy of pedagogical sciences and through their the schools associated with these research institutes. So there is a very wide dissemination of research findings and this finds its expression in the work done in schools. And with that comment from Dr Brian Holmes of the Institute of Education this is under joins in the studios of the BBC in London. This was the world of

education. This program was distributed by National Public Radio. The world of education and in the studios of the BBC in London. This is Jeremy Verity. This week we look at an international education link between the education department of the Gambia in West Africa and Oxfordshire education authority. It's a Mr. provide outside help and advice for the Gambia to improve its education system through direct contact with the local education authority in the United Kingdom. Now I'm particularly interested in this experiment because I was recently in The Gambia myself. I was able to see some of its

results at close hand when I was there I met Bill asprin the advisor in primary schools to Oxford to education authority and the man who carried out the original survey of Gambian educational needs. In 1987 a survey which was recommended by the then Oxfordshire director of education and children. Well both Bill last bridge and I have now returned to this country and recently I went down to Oxford to meet him and some of his colleagues who have worked on the Oxfordshire Gambia link. I asked Bill first about the structure of Gambian education when he made his first visit in 1967. Well it varies considerably in Bathurst in the combo's there in Rome and was probably about somewhere around 80 percent of the children in schools up in the provinces. This was about 16 to 20 percent so I was in our dorm children went to school there when they got to school at all from the age of 6 until 12 primary school. This was in fact a terminal education for many of them.

Second the places was not available so there was quite keen competition to get into what few second places as well available and then in addition to that of course there's the occasional training center bottles which catered for. Some motor mechanics and carpentry. A small clerical school and then also of course they have a teacher training college and certainly the number of trained teachers. The conditions under which they were working were utterly different from those go to so whatever we recommended in the future had to be relevant to the government context not just an option to context. What precisely did you recommend that Oxfordshire could do as its contribution to the education of the Gambia. Well certainly I thought the rethinking of the needs of the child this has struck me as fundamental. I found children who could do division of decimals infinitely better than our children not that it wasn't particularly relevant at that

stage. What in practical ways has been done in the last four years. Well having seen the scores and having chatted with the teachers and having got to know them something about their problems the first thing that I was asked to do was to run an in-service training course during the Easter holidays of 1967. And with my colleagues from the Education Department on the teacher training college we in fact mounted at short notice a one week intensive in training in service training course about 100 Gambon probably had tutors just looking at the primary school child what his needs are and how we used to just go out. Hope to satisfy some of these needs. What other forms of help are being given from Oxford. Well first of all they had no handbook or suggestions or torso. The director said the news and the chance of your writing handbook or suggestions of this is quite a tall order to do informants visit. But again with the help of my colleagues we did this and we did produce before a left hander suggestion which is in effect a

collection of working papers who got the Gambon verses who come to university at all. And this is a very good thing. We know them under the difficult conditions in their schools up river. We know the Gambon to just under those conditions. They come talks and they say our conditions here this is the way that we work. Is there anything that you are conscious of having failed to achieve in your first four years and I would think that in service training in the Guard is something which is still difficult to organize I don't mean our courses in the rains but it's the continuity of the underpinning of the Annual to education course. And this has been tackled in many ways but of course. The teachers are isolated geographically are slow to profession are slow to me have do something about this. You Eason Gys a Gambian education officer concerned with primary education in the capital Bathurst and its surrounding areas. She's concerned with educational planning affecting some 6000 children and about 150 teachers. She's been

spending three months in Oxford working with the Oxfordshire authority. I asked her if she was satisfied with the balance between primary and secondary education in the Gambia. I don't think it's quite right. I think a little bit more should be spent on primary education but in the last few years and the vote for primary education as a main static and I think there should be some increase in the pool for primary education and this should I do I would say cut down on the vote for. You know secondary education I think this is very important to provide more and more places for the children who cannot make the grade for the senior secondary schools but I think the government should consider granting a little bit more towards consolidating their work in primary education and not only that but introducing the new type of ideas that are necessary in training. The present day China.

If I were your minister of finance you had to justify to me why I should give you more money for primary schools. Is there a short answers to what exactly the primary school can do with that money that the other areas can do the more books and equipment you can provide the primary school child. The more you can get the primary school tied to think and do things for himself we will be able to send him to secondary school better people than we are able to say now. Now you have almost everyday contact with the teachers in your area. What sort of a difference has having the ox which are Gumby educations given existence meant for them. It is adequate in my area have really impressed me. Despite the fact of the time. They haven't got the necessary materials and equipment and physical structure in which to work in the putting into practice

some of the ideas that have been passed over to us by upstart. She teaches his own people but there wasn't much done in studying the environment the time being given the opportunity to study and adamant and teaches about a key to this and they go on now to make sure that the children are given the opportunity to do this. And there wasn't much in the way of doing things for the child doing things for himself. But then in the smaller way they get the children to do things for themselves. George Baines is headmaster of age from county primary school. He visited the Gambia last year to assist one of the all important in-service training courses for Gambian teachers. As always I think one is kind of short in service coarsely the greatest driving was one good if I can use the inspiration and enthusiasm. I've gone away having met people and we hope once conveyed to them some of our own enthusiasm. Feelings

but also that we have shown them some of the techniques we will assume some of the ways we think and approach and hope that they go away and make use of it for themselves. This is what online and answer the criticisms some people who would say well you can always send them a text book on modern teaching methods. Well yes. We would hope that they were so sweet it was straight out of the window because nobody can tell anybody else this is the way to do it there isnt one where there are so many many ways and I learned from working with those teachers as I know that they learned because some of them written to me since I think they've gone away with something else tool are being more aware of how rich their own environment is from it is fantastically exciting for me I'd love to take the children from England to the village we went to because they're so fantastic in our plan and one can easily assume it's not there I mean it was history their geography their social studies where everything was in this one small village and yet when you took a cursory glance at it you see and it's not there at all and they were a bit surprised themselves that there was so much there and I some of them are being inspired to go on doing

digging around the villages to find the history but that's all missing there. Can your teacher who was never taught in a Gambian village school with all its problems and its limitations. Be an awfully effective encourage and advise of family and teachers not in No not strictly speaking in terms of strict techniques I think one's got to know their situation. I think in terms of general philosophy understanding of young children the principles of the education of the primary child yes you can because this is relevant to children wherever they live wherever they are. Morris Brown another headmaster this time of the Ed Wood feel school kid Linton recently returned to Oxford after spending two years as a lecturer at young training college like George Baines. He's concerned with ways of providing concrete practical help. When you think that. All the schools that are there without some some of them are only a roof. There's hardly any furniture and no

books. When you think of the status of the teacher religious I feel the needs are so great. We want to be all. We've done a great deal I think way we could somehow do a great deal more. So I went I was employed by the Gambon government when I don't think the Gambian government or out of employ. I think the British government should have employed. I think the Gambian government had to raise that money to pay me when I was I think the British government shouldn't provide it. So even in Oxfordshire I don't feel that this financial help would be of enormous consequence to me. In its first four years the ox which of Gambia link has meant that teachers have exchanged ideas about primary education. The Gambian buses have received awards enabling them to study in Britain that vocational and technical studies in the Gambia have been expanded library exchanges have been arranged. But what about the future. What else would Louise and Jai like to see

happen in the nephew chair. One of the demands I like a god to make. Oxford chair is set to get some of the Oxford chair Titian's into a training college. I'd like to see some of the up to chat teachers as lectures in their training college. It's one thing to run in service training courses for teachers for a fortnight. It's another thing or an in-service training courses for the weekend in service training courses. But it matters a great deal for continuity to have the teachers were coming out of the college having the right approach being trained in the right wing who can also fit in into our school groups and take into our schools. These these ideas. And Bill asked Bridge How does he see the future. Our main competition will be I would think in teacher training in the primary field.

But we've already been helping in the secondary and technical field and in technical education and we're hoping that in the near future two gamblers will come to one of our technical college was on a sitcom and so they can at least get a little more of our expertise and see what is relevant in their own context. So there are many many developments ahead. And certainly we would like to see the teacher training the initial teacher training link more closely with the Department of Education here at Oxford. And we're hoping that young them Teacher Training College will be in fact linked very closely with our area training organization at Oxford. Finally what sort of general lessons can other developing countries learn from the ox which of Gambia scheme when they come to looking at the sort of aid they can get from Britain. One would think concentration in an area where you see officer is not the only agency in this country which has a link with an overseas country

and in fact there is a link Subcommittee on teacher training overseas at the present Overseas Development Administration the old Odeon and this is intended to act as a broker of the overseas country lets need to be known and odium this area and this subcommittee. They know what authorities here have to offer and they can match it to the unaskable government plans you think you get more out of a county to country approach than a country to country approach in a sense. Well this seems to be the seem to me to have the benefits yes. And this is Jeremy verity in the studios of the BBC in London. This was the world of education. This programme was distributed by National Public Radio.