OutCasting; Intersex transgender youth

Up next the youth of OutCasting take a look at intersex, a term describing people who in some cases are born with a mix of male and female body parts. Our guests talks about some of these body parts using the proper names. There is nothing salacious in using these terms in this context, but if hearing them makes you uncomfortable, please tune in again in half an hour. Otherwise, we hope you'll enjoy this discussion about natural variations in the human body. [Dominic] I wasn't discovered that I was intersex. And then as I was growing up, my mom did notice that I was developing secondary sex characteristics that would be stereotypically considered more masculine or male. And so she'd actually asked some of my doctors when I was younger, if it was concerning and they had said no. It was never something for me that really concerned me. I actually kind of liked it because at the time, as I was going through my first initial puberty, I was identifying as male and masculine and so I wanted to really have more characteristics that reflected that. So in a way, it was kind of beneficial [laughs] for

me. [Lauren] This is OutCasting, public radio's LGTBQ youth program where you don't have to be queer to be here. OutCasting is a production of Media for the Public Good, a listener-supported independent producer based in New York, online at OutCastingmedia.org. Hi, I'm Lauren. As we've discussed on the last two editions of OutCasting, intersex is a condition in which babies are born with a mix of sex characteristics. This can mean ambiguous genitalia, a mix of internal organs, or other things like hormone and sensitivities. Many people in our society think that people are either male or female, but intersex people are born with a mix of characteristics of both males and females. In some cases, doctors operate on intersex infants to make the baby fit the binary, but this is controversial because the person receiving the surgery is unable to consent. On this edition of OutCasting, we continue our look at intersex by talking with an intersex youth named Dominic Luke Wolf. [Andrea] Hi Dominic, thank you so much for joining us. [Dominic] Hello, how are you? [Andrea] I'm good. How are you? [Dominic] Good, I'm doing well actually. [Andrea] So, tell us about your

particular intersex traits. [Dominic] I have a variation where my hormones are imbalanced. So, when I was pursuing a medical transition, because I also identify as transgender, I went to the doctor and they tested me for my testosterone levels and they noticed that my levels were higher than the average levels were supposed to be for someone who is assigned female at birth, like myself. And also they had noticed, because they made me strip down and they measured my clistoris. They noticed that it was abnormally large in comparison to someone who was assigned female at birth - like the length that the clitoris would be. They told me, "Oh, you have an intersex variation," but they never gave me like a name to it. They told me that it might be polycystic ovarian syndrome, and there's actually a lot of debate whether or not polycystic ovarian syndrome is considered an intersex variation. But as basic sense, intersex means, you know, having

a variation of secondary sex characteristics, or your chromosomes, or your genitalia, or hormones, that differ from a binary perception of what sex would be, as either male or female. [Andrea] So, did you not know at all that you were intersex before you were like seeking to medically transition? [Dominic] Yeah, that's correct. At birth, I wasn't discovered that I was intersex. And then as I was growing up my mom did notice that I was developing secondary sex characteristics that would be, you know, stereotypically considered more masculine or male. And she wondered, and so she had actually asked some of my doctors when I was younger if it was concerning, and they had said, you know, no. So, she just never really did anything more with that, and it was never something for me that really concerned me. I actually kind of liked it because at the time, as I was going through my first initial puberty, I was identifying as male and masculine

and so I wanted to really have more characteristics that reflected that. So in a way it was kind of beneficial [laughs] for me. But it wasn't discovered that I was intersex until I went in to pursue a medical transition. So it was then, when I was around eighteen years old, when people told me, "Oh this is like something that you may have that's on your radar and this kind of explains what's been going on." As an [? ethos] of medical interventions, I'm assuming that since you were seeking medical transition, have you undergone any? [Dominic] Yeah, so that's always like a tough subject for some people because I know a lot of intersex individuals really don't want to have medical interventions happen. And I believe that that is in regards to a lot of infant genitalia mutilation. In regards to having an intersex baby who may have a physical attribute to them that a doctor feels like they need to fix to then conform this child to a binary. And so, that I don't think is okay at all because I think that is-- the baby is

not allowed to give consent. And therefore, that's mutilation without consent to this body and oftentimes, intersex individuals who had that happen, grow up having a disconnect with their body. And for me, that...that wasn't my experience because it wasn't discovered at birth for me that I was intersex, and it was discovered when I was eighteen, so I had the autonomy to make my own decisions. And since I did want to pursue medical transition, I decided to take testosterone which would balance out my hormones, and kind of keep me more stable and also regulate my emotions too, because with my hormone imbalance it caused my emotions to fluctuate a lot. [Andrea] So, the hormone imbalance that you said you had, did that include higher testosterone? [Dominic] Yeah, so it was like hypoandrogenism is technically what it's called. And I'm not-- [laughs] unfortunately I'm not like a....like a scientist, so they just told me that basically my

body had more androgens in them causing me to have like higher testosterone levels. When it was discovered, like when I was eighteen, they told me that I had the same testosterone levels as like a sixteen year old boy would have. I don't-- [Andrea] Woah. [laughs] [Dominic] I don't know what that means. It's just like-- they told me like yeah, you know, you developing these characteristics are a result of this. But also at the same time, I had-- like my body was also trying produce estrogen. So it was like these two competing hormones almost. At least that's what it felt like for me. And so, when I was initially developing, I was like, why do I have like a mustache and like hair on my back? And why do I feel like I have just more like muscle mass and density compared to these other like quote-unquote, like "girls" around me? Or why is my voice a little bit deeper? And then also for me personally, I never really talked about it with anyone, but I was always like why is my clitoris growing to a size that I don't feel like is normal?

But then I was never like comparing it to other people, so it was never really something that would come up in my day to day life. [Andrea] So, did that kind of thing bother you at all? Like feeling that you were different maybe? [Dominic] I mean I went to a Catholic all-girls school and I was openly identifying as transgender, and so I think in that sense, it just added a little bit to the ostracism-- feeling ostracized -- that's what I'm trying to say. [laughs] [Andrea] Yeah. [Dominic] In school. So knowing that my body was like developing differently, I didn't want to show it to people. And then also knowing that it didn't align with my gender identity also caused me to not want to show my body to people. And you know oftentimes, I would wear a lot of layers even on hot days because I was just kind of really ashamed of my body because I didn't know what was going on and I didn't feel like it was normal, whatever normal means. [Andrea] I probably should have asked this earlier, but when did you first come out as transgender? [Dominic] I came out as transgender when I was fourteen because that's when I

learned the words for what transgender was. And what's really cool about that was I was able to figure out what transgender meant through YouTube and finding a community on YouTube. But, I do tell people I acknowledge that my gender was different than my sex assigned at birth from a younger age, because when I was seven years old, I was gravitating toward stuff that would be considered more masculine and also I ask my parents, you know, "What would you name me if I was born a boy?" And they said, Dominic, and I liked that name, so I kinda just kept it, and it was like a nickname that I had with friends growing up. And I would just use it as a nickname and then kind of like, as I got older and I started questioning my sexuality and my gender identity, it just all kind of like came to fall into place for me. Understanding how I was feeling and how the identities would match with these feelings. And I still play with labels, but it was around like seven when I really started to notice like, 'Oh people are calling me a girl, but I'm dressing this way and they're

telling me I dress like a boy, or that they remind me of a boy, and think of me as a boy like why is that? Why am I a girl?' And then also like, 'why don't they see me the same as like my older male cousins, or just someone who I saw myself as equal to.' [Andrea] So, you said that your parents at one point sort of took you... like because you were kind of developing physically in a more masculine way, they took you to a doctor. Did they ever like ask you about that, or sort of have a conversation with you about it? [Dominic] Not really... they did ask me like-- [laughs] they thought that I was taking like hormones from the black market or that I was getting them from someone, not from a doctor. Which I think is really funny cause they never said that to me like blatantly until I told them like I got my blood test done and then they told me that I have a hormone imbalance and that it's like the reason for x y and z. And my mom was like "Oh, yeah, I would bring that up to your doctor, but she never really said that there was anything to worry about." And for her, I think

she saw it as like, "oh, maybe we could have prevented something in the future if we had caught it earlier," but I don't really think there was anything we really could've done besides maybe put me on a like hormone blocker until I was old enough to really decide if I wanted to pursue medical transition, or like have my body just naturally go through whatever it was going to go through. I don't think my parents would've been open to that. Just seeing how they were with my own medical transition, and how unsupportive they were of that. I just don't see it being a reality that would have happened for me. [Andrea] So, once you had that diagnosis were your parents more supportive then? [Dominic] Unfortunately, no. But I will say that I can understand how you know, having a transgender, or like an intersex child, or a queer child, because these are all identities that I align myself, I really can understand how it can be difficult to know what's going on and support them. But at the same time, it doesn't dismiss a lot of like the adversity

that I faced because of them not being supportive of a lot of my transition. But, we are at a better point of communication and also understanding than we were when I initially like first came out at fourteen. So, I'm really lucky in that sense, but we did have like a very rough like emotional patch at the beginning of my medical transition. And also, at the beginning of like my social transition and when I came out, and when I was in high school, and also college so. It's pretty complex with my parents, but I'm glad that I haven't lost them completely. [Andrea] Was there any difference in terms of their acceptance of your intersex condition? [Domic] They see it as more like, it's like a natural phenomenon. And now that I am on testosterone, my intersex variation doesn't really affect my like body anymore because it's balanced now. And my genitalia too, like with the growth in my clitoris, I've accepted

it. And also it's pretty common for other people who have been assigned female at birth, who transition on testosterone, to have clitoris growth. And so that kind of makes me feel a little bit more comfortable with it, because knowing that even though mine was already like that before testosterone, just knowing that there are other people out there who are even like trans or intersex who may have like a similar appearance to their genitalia, regardless of the reason, still makes me feel more comfortable with my body. And so, I'm like really thankful for that. [Andrea] Can you talk about the sort of the interaction between being intersex and being trans? [Dominic] Yeah, it's actually, I think, a really beautiful interaction because it really kind of shows the difference between sex and gender. Sex is made up of so many components, not just your genitalia, which I think a lot of individuals only believe that's your genitalia, but it's a lot of these secondary sex characteristics. Chromosomes, hormones, all these components make up your sex and like

how you develop. And when I talk about gender, I talk about how it's a social construct and how based on these individual's perceived sex, they come with expectations from society of how your gender identity supposed to align. So, for example, for me growing up as someone who was assigned female at birth, I was thrown a lot of like, need to be docile, you need to be obedient, and you can only play with Barbies, and this is like what is expected from you: to like pink and to like flowers. And so, when I was like discovering my trans identity, it was really cool to like see how fluid gender can be. And how limiting society makes it because of some notion that they believe that men and women are inherently different. And yeah, I believe that all individuals are different, like some people are stronger than other people -- it doesn't necessarily mean that men and women are different, and that men are all the same, and women are all the same. Because I've met a bunch of you know men that would very much not be considered the same people.

But yet, they're still considered men. And so, that's why I think the intersection between sex and gender become really cool because it allows individuals to really think like, oh how are they connected, and how are they disconnected? And I think for me having to really understand that like my sex is not in the binary, and also my gender is not in a binary, and how they have come to be, and how they like interact with one another is really unique. And I have spent a lot of time like navigating spaces explaining my gender identity and my intersex variation. [guitar music] [Lauren] This is OutCasting public radio's LGBTQ youth program produced by Media for the Public Good in New York online at outcastingmedia.org. On this edition OutCaster, Andrea, is talking with Dominic Luke Wolf an intersex youth. [Andrea] Do you think that your intersex condition had any effect on your gender identity in the more personal sense? [Dominic] Well, I think since I had such a solid gender identity, my intersex variation, almost

to me, felt like validation in my own identity because it was like, "hey here's a natural reason to even prove to you that everything is a spectrum and there's no binary." So for me, it was almost like...oh this is validating. Like, this about me is making me unique and therefore ?complies? to my gender identity, which also makes me inherently unique, because my gender identity is defined by me, and my intersex variation is mine. And, I think those are really cool because they give me the tools to navigate society and really see society in a perspective that not a lot of people get, because not a lot of people get to be seen, or navigate, through society as female, and then as someone who is androgynous and non-binary, and then also is being perceived as male. [Andrea[ So, we've talked with other people who said that sort of a light flashed in their head when they first found out about another trans person. Was there a moment like that for you with respect to being intersex?

Oh yeah.... totally. When I went home after this like doctors appointment, they said like oh intersex, and had also told me like hormone imbalance, da da da. Well what causes this? So that actually, when I'm given a new identity, when it's presented to me, I naturally go online and research it and try to understand what it means. And for me, when I was researching intersex, I came upon a lot of conflicted literature, and so I was really trying to find communities. So going on to different social media platforms and trying to find intersex advocacy groups or intersex social groups was really cool for me because then I was able to talk to people and really, like you said, that light moment for me was like, "oh, cool there's like another person I could talk to about this" and really, you know, see how it's been for them, and see how it compares to my experience and how we can learn and give each other advice and support and all this kind of stuff. [Interviewer] Did you also have a similar moment for being trans? [Interviewee] Yeah because for me going to

this very small catholic all girls school, I only had 31 students in my class and I was the only one who was identifying openly as transgender and with it, you know, being a religious school and with it being an all-girls school there's a lot of adversity that came with that and a lot of isolation that came with that. So for me a lot of my community building was through online platforms like Instagram and Tumblr and YouTube. These platforms allowed me to connect with other people my age who had similar identities to me and a lot of them have unsupportive family as well and so that too was just another safe way for me to really learning and grow with these people. [Interviewer] Coming back to something that you mentioned a little earlier, you mentioned your first puberty. Can you can explain that, was there another? [Interviewee] Yeah, well when I say like my first puberty, it means when I was pre-testosterone because I look at me going on testosterone as almost like a second puberty

because when you look at it, the length of the amount of changes that you experience with your body starting a hormone replacement therapy is kind of similar to how you develop naturally when your body just naturally starts to go through puberty. So I had to go through being moody again, I had to go through being really hungry again, and I had to go through like acne and all this stuff and it was really funny because I was like "I'm 18 but I feel like I need to just eat everything in sight because I am going through hormone changes again," it was kind of funny because I was like "I'm in college now, like I shouldn't be going through puberty," and I was like "I'm choosing to go through this puberty but it's worth it because you know now I can say I am the happiest I've ever been with my body and the way I feel in it, and just my own autonomy with it and I'm really proud of it and like how far my body has been able to adapt to all the changes that have been thrown, you know, my body's way, I just think it proves that the human body is

really resilient and fascinating. [Interviewer] So you said that you were 18 when you found that you were intersex, so how old are you now? [Interviewee] 21 years old. [Interviewer] Has being intersex affected your life in this past three years, you know, what's it been like to be intersex in that time? [Interviewee] I think it's really allowed me to expand my knowledge on sex and also sex in other communities and cultures because the intersex community is small and therefore I've been able to meet other intersex individuals from different countries which has been really cool because you get to see how sex and genders are perceived and viewed in these other cultures that are not a culture that I was raised in and again it also solidifies for myself that it just shows that the ways we view sex and gender is culturally constructed because it's how the majority views an individual based off of certain

aspects that they have, and so for me talking with these people and really understanding like "oh you know, you had this experience too where you had to go to the doctor and have them, you know, strip you down naked and ask to really look at your body and kind of almost feel like a science experiment?" Like it's it's really comforting to know that there are other people out there who've been through something like that and that's also really liberating when you get like a text from them and they're like "yeah I was just in the doctor's office and I just denied a medical student to be like looking at my body for like quote unquote 'observation'" because it's almost this feeling of being able to bring back your own autonomy with your body and having control over it and I think it's really empowering because yes you can build that courage on your own but knowing that there are other people supporting you who go through similar things is really awesome and that's how my intersex variation has impacted my life since discovering it three

years ago. It's really helped open doors in many ways to a bunch of community and even friends I've made too, so I'm really thankful that I discovered it at the age that I did and I'm really thankful that it was presented to me at a time where I was the one making decisions and I was the one in full control and not anyone else. [Interviewer] So you mentioned sex and gender being viewed differently in different cultures, can you elaborate on that? [Interviewee] Yeah, so you know I studied some sociology and anthropology in college and so in studying anthropology we would look at a bunch of different cultures that were present all around the world and so, you know, one that comes to mind pretty quickly is-- I'm not Native American so I can't speak on like Native American culture but I do know that there is a two-spirit identity and how it's almost seen,

it could be seen as like a third gender. I know that there are other indigenous cultures that have people who live in society who are seen as like third genders but they may or may not be considered transgender because that just-- that terminology may not apply to that certain culture because what I tell people is like I'm transgender in the sense of what it means to be transgender in the United States and modern western cultures because I believe that that is my experience as living in the United States is a very westernized culture and therefore I get a very westernized view of like sex and gender, but that might be different for someone who grew up with predominantly, you know, non western culture, and I see a lot of non-western cultures to have three or four different gender identities that are, you know, respected and accepted in society. So that's kind of what I mean by saying like gender and sex are different in different cultures because

there are seen differently than they are here. 'Cause also for instance if an intersex child was born into a family somewhere else, in a different culture, I believe that like that family may or may not decide to have a type of surgery to correct the child's genitalia or something if that was the case because they may see it as like "oh this is like a blessing from the universe" and it could be seen differently or I know I've read about a lot of other cultures that see almost like people who are intersex or people who identify as being transgender, and I use these terms as like the way they are applied to the western society in these individuals could be almost seen as like being closer to god or being inherently both, which can be seen as a very powerful or almost like a strength or even healing and all these other words that you can

apply to someone who is like almost-- not like god-like, but is very like high in power and is respected in communities for having the ability to really connect with the feminine and the masculine. And so I find that really beautiful too, that there are other places where gender and sex are seen as more fluid. [Interviewer] So how has being intersex and trans informed your understanding of gender as a social construct? [Interviewee] I mean I think like I've touched on before, it just proves to me that you know naturally there's not a binary because my sex isn't-- you can't put in a binary because I didn't develop the way someone who has binary female sex assigned as birth was going to develop, but then I also didn't develop the same way a binary, you know, some male sex assigned at birth individual did, so I'm in between and then also with my gender again I don't identify with a binary male or

female identity, so I'm in this gray area again, this in-between because I identify as non-binary. [Interviewer] This has been great, thanks so much for joining us. [Interviewee] Yeah, thank you again so much for having me, I really enjoyed talking with you. [Interviewer] Dominic Luke Wolf is an intersex youth and activist. He spoke to us from his home in San Francisco. That's it for this edition of OutCasting, public radio's LGBTQ youth program where you don't have to be queer to be here. This program has been produced by the OutCasting team, including youth participants Alex, Andrea, Dante, Dhruv, Griffin, Lucas, Mason, Quinn, Nico, Max, and me, Lauren. Our assistant producers are Alex Mintz and Josh Valley and our executive producer is Marc Sophos. OutCasting is a production of Media For The Public Good, a listener supported independent producer based in New York. More information about OutCasting is available at outcastingmedia.org. You'll find information about the show, listen links for all OutCasting episodes, and the podcast link. OutCasting is also

on social media, connect with us on twitter, facebook, and youtube at outcastingmedia. If you're having trouble, whether it's at home, at school, or just yourself, called the Trevor Project hotline at 866-488-7386 or visit them online at thetrevorproject.org. The Trevor Project is an organization dedicated to LGBTQ youth suicide prevention. Call them if you have a problem. Being different isn't a reason to hate or hurt yourself. 866- 488-7386 or online at thetrevorproject.org. You can also find a link on our site, outcastingmedia.org under OutCasting LGBTQ resources. I'm Lauren, thanks for listening, see you next time on OutCasting.