The Eyewitness Who Wasn't, The Matthews Murder Trials; No. 1; Part 2

Something inside of me makes me doubt people. Makes me paranoid and I don't really know how to love again. They recorded Thoughts of Deborah and Kid recorded at a later date. At this time in March 1972, with at least four of Kramer's friends, Debbie Kidd alternately tries to, one, entice them sexually and then to tell Kramer that his friends have been making passes at her in four separate consecutive letters signed. Debbie Kramer this time. March 1972. She promises not to lie ever again and again and again. Dear Jimmy, I did not say that we were broke up. I just said that from what to ponder said that you wrote her that we were. So is it true? And about another man getting anything? Well, I haven't been around anyone as far as EXPLETIVE DELETED them. And Jim, I don't want nothing. All your friends do is say I don't need it or don't deserve it. And I have lied and EXPLETIVE DELETED.

But this time I didn't. So to hell with it. You, Jim, betrayed me. You believed them and they lied. But you did teach me a few things that I will never forget, to never believe another person and to watch them before they hang you. The laugh is on me. I'm laughing at myself for loving you and trying so hard. And I never dated Dennis Hewitt. I told you once. He kept asking ponder where I was. And Jim, I am gonna try to wait. But I got tired of every time I came you fussing and listening to EXPLETIVE DELETED. And, you know, I was trying hard to get you out. So tell me I'm lying now. Anyway, I do love you and I will prove it to you. Just wait and see. Signed Deborah and Kramer at his trial during a recess. Jimmy Kramer tells Debbie Kidd to get lost. He never wants to see her again. The romance is over. Debbie Kidd returns to Greenville, South Carolina, to the

Forum Shack at 28 Donaldson Street. Her family's home, a place and a state of mind. She has always tried to escape. My mother. I mean, I did something here when I was growing up. I mean, lots of things. I though, so waking dependent on my mother and father. I just started running and I never did stop. In early July 1972, Deborah and Kid was arrested for shoplifting in Greenville, South Carolina. She called Greenville attorney Dick James and asked him to ask Hoyt Powell for Bond money. Gloria Powell, White's wife, answered the phone when Dick James called. She remembers White's reply to Debbie Kidd's request. He said nothing. That's been a.

She's right where she belongs. He said, I wouldn't have been 15 cents to get in to come back to Dick James's arms the next morning relayed the message to Dick James. Exactly where in. As far as I know, no. Does that sound to you? Like someone knows somebody and he knows there was in the murders together. There's any way to see her lips. If you and Deborah and Kid is stuck in jail with no one to turn to. No one until a narcotics agent, Danny Gilreath comes along while she waits. Her mind schemes to get even to get even with Jimmy Hoyt, George and a whole bunch of them. And I build a little wall. You know, I've got a wall. This show is really big. And yet people, you know. And I'm afraid they're gonna hurt me are messed me up some kind of way. And that's why I really, truly am treacherous.

Later, she will be called innocent faced. Now, in the summer of 1972, she is best described as a scraggly, unkempt drug freak with tormented half empty eyes. Eyes have filled with an amphetamine glaze. Later, they will give her a frilly dresses sky and blue or pale green, soft innocent colors trimmed in white lace. They will give her feminine undergarments to wear an unfamiliar luxury. Now she is squeezed into an extra skin and nothing more. A slacks and top ensemble of her favorite color black black. Now she is telling them about a crime. She says she's witnessed a double murder. She is reciting various alleged facts about the crime, and they stop and start the tape recorder and exchange puzzled glances.

She says the crime happened in December. Around Christmas time, the victims dressed in pajamas were taken by surprise in their bedroom. They were tied up with coat hangers, jewelry and some clothing was stolen. The woman victim was forced into sodomy with all the men. The detectives look again toward each other and gesture toward the hallway where they confer frequently. Her facts do not match the physical evidence of the crime scene. Her admittedly drug influenced ramblings make no sense. Later, her story will change. It will more closely match the crime scene. Later, the tape recording now being made will disappear. It is July 26, 1972 at the state law enforcement division headquarters in Columbia, South Carolina, Cobb County, Georgia, Detective Wayne l'Est and GBI Agent Roy Jones are interviewing for the first time.

Debra and Kid, let's put another thing in contact with she under the influence of drugs at the time. Yeah, she appeared to be heavily on the influence of drugs. Wayne Ellis, in your first few interviews with Debra and Kid beginning July 26, 1972. Taking it through August when she was brought to Cobb County in connection with the Matthews murders. Did she mention golf club that she'd seen in the garage? Yes. A diamond necklace, a ring and other jewelry that was supposedly taken. A diamond ring. The woman being forced to commit sodomy with all the men? Yes, she did mention that suit. A sweater, a pair of shoes supposedly stolen from the house, some clothes belonging to that community, a doctor's medical bag. And they treated Kramer with it. Yes. It was mentioned about the doctors and her leg. They tore her clothes off. Didn't her clothes off? That I can recall or imagine. She mentioned about her being tied up with a coat hanger. Ellis had been assigned to the case since May 7th, 1971, the day

of the murders. He knew that neither victim played golf and that there were no golf clubs in the garage. And that day. He knew that the interior of the house was undisturbed. Nothing was stolen. He knew that Rosina Matthews did not wear jewelry. Both pathologists, the Matthews did not carry medical bags. There was no evidence of sodomy. And the victims had not been tied up with coat hangers or anything else. In short, says Ellis of Debbie Kids, early versions of the killings. Well, there was no no physical evidence to back up her statement as to what had transpired at scene. The jurors who later found seven men guilty of murder on the basis of Debbie Kidd's testimony, never heard what you just heard. One of several early versions of Miss Kidd's description of the crime. They never heard it because they were not allowed to hear it. The police reports and other evidence detailing those early versions and several dozen changes in her story as they occurred were suppressed, kept hidden

during the trials. How and why did description's that didn't match the physical evidence disappear from Debbie Kidd's story? How and why did fact's more closely related to the physical evidence up here in her story? Wayne Ellis offers one explanation. Well, my thinking is, is Mike, she can. She can overhear a conversation or you can mitchinson to her. She can take that magin or the conversation that she's heard and turn it around to fit exactly the way she walked in. And she can put it in her mind. And Microsoft believe Debbie Kidd had a quick Fassel in mind, one that could easily tune in to suggestive interrogation. Suggestive interrogation. It can be subtle, pervasive, purposeful or accidental. Wayne ellos believes that he inadvertently gave Debra and kid her most dramatic

testimony, the idea that she shot the woman victim. I probably put this in her mind, Mike, for the simple reason she could talk to you about the doctor. And when you mentioned the woman, she would break down and start crying. One night she asked me, says what you actually think happened? And I said, well, I think if he was there at the scene at all, you kill the wound. She later came up with a story that she shot this man. It happened in late August 1972, at a time when Wayne Ellis was beginning to doubt Debbie Kidd's story at the trial of James Cramer. Six months later, this was Debbie Kidd's testimony. Question Did you shoot her? You mean what was the last word she said before you shot her? She could be.

The jurors understandably believed that testimony. They never heard her say the crime happened in December around Christmas. They heard her testify that it was May 7th, nineteen seventy one. They didn't know that she had switched from the man shooting Jimmy Cramer to the woman shooting Jimmy Cramer. They didn't know that she had switched from Cramer, lying on the garage floor, bleeding badly to Cramer, hardly bleeding at all. They never heard Ben Smith, the man who helped prosecute the first two defendants, including Cramer. Answer this question in your mind. The original seven persons who were indicted for the Matthews murder. Guilty? No. Any question of that? No question. In my mind, was Debbie Kidd's testimony perjured that? Either perjured or highly suggest you either perjured or highly suggested, says Ben Smith, former district attorney of Cobb County. Special prosecutor appointed by then Governor Jimmy Carter to assist in the first two

trials, if suggested. By whom was it accidental suggestion? You remember the the name of that document? And then again, remember his name? I mean, name a lot of names ringing in my head, and I don't know what they mean. My bottom line is, I don't know why. John Wayne. My name. You remember what you don't remember. Where were you? Well, we start using some hypnosis. Maybe we can do that. And now that from a tape of a conversation between Debra and Kid and Edwin P. Hall p_h_d_, a psychologist hypnotist Hall was hired by Cobb County in late August 1972 to get Debbie get off drugs, amphetamines in particular, and to quote further her memory,

end quote, of the Matthews murders. That quote is from the sworn testimony of Major Jesse Cooper of the Cobb County Police. Testimony given not during the trials, but later in a federal court hearing. The jurors never heard Jesse Cooper admit why Debbie Kidd was taken to Edwin B Hall. The jurors never heard the tapes of many conversations between Hall and kid. The hypnotist and the star witness who had been with, you know, last that because she wasn't with us in a moment. How better name I had because I'm jealous, I guess. Really? She was at b.j.'s asleep. That's the truth. Well, let me take you. And then we're just human beings. That's true. You told me before. No.

I was like the police reports, which detailed Miss Kids, early statements, statements which did not match the actual crime. The tapes of the conversations between Edwin P. Hall and Deborah and Kid were also suppressed, kept hidden by the prosecution during the trials. Why? And why have some of those tapes disappeared? Exactly how was Debbie Kidd's memory furthered or enhanced? Was it a process of extracting information that already existed in her mind? Information that was perhaps blocked by her abuse of amphetamines? Or was it a process of injecting information into her memory, in effect, creating an eyewitness who in fact wasn't an eyewitness? On August thirty first nineteen seventy two, the day of their second meeting, Paul told Debbie Kidd. We usually have noticed it's gonna help you to be able to

slow everything down. Video playback on television. Now we've got those first pass and they run the camera back. Riding it well, knowing that nobody can help you deal to. Paraphrasing what you just heard. Hypnosis will be like a videotape. It will help you remember everything you want to remember. Edwin B Hall to Deborah and Kid on August 21st, 1972. As our story moves forward, we'll examine in detail the tapes recorded by Edwin B Hall in the fall of 1972, evidence the jurors who were later convicted, seven men never saw. We'll come back to that evidence later. But first, two other thrusts of the Matthews case should be considered both.

Our series of events, which also took place in the fall of 1972. One is the campaign for the office of District Attorney Cobb County. The second is the battle for the bullet. And I'm being perfectly honest. The Roy Jones and Wayne. During the month of September and late August were in constant contact with the d.a.'s office. Her story did not get not jav. Their explanation to me was she was on dope very heavily in it and my Vaseline was to get her off of the dope. And let's see if she was telling the truth. That is Ben Smith, Cobb County District Attorney. In September 1972, Smith says he knew that Debbie Kidd was seeing it when P. Hall. But he Smith thought that the visits were limited to drug therapy in the fall of 1972. Smith says his energies were spent almost entirely on the battle for the bullet in James Kramer's chest, a bullet which the

informant, Debbie Kidd claimed would match ballistically with the bullet found beneath the head of Rosina Matthews on May 7th, 1971. Now, the point the one point that you have to consider is that she did had told him that Kramer had a bullet ending. And we made a very unique investigation into that and found a very unique notation, which was grand by. James and later affirmed by Supreme Court, the state of Georgia. So I can't say exactly what they told me, but it was conflicting. Yes. Kramer, in a pretrial hearing in Cobb County Superior Court, admitted that there was a bullet in his chest. Kramer's attorney, Hilton Dupri, advised Kramer not to give it up. However, Dupri feared that the Cobb County police might try to pull a switch. Our position in the case at that juncture was that if we remove the bullet and if the bullet did not match and if the state had control of the bullet without any controls for any period of time,

the bullet that came out of Crane was back would not be the one that came showed up in court. We were convinced of that, that there would be a switch. Absolutely. Well, who are you impugning there? The police department or the district attorney's office at that particular damn police department? I didn't think Ben Smith was is an old warhorse type prosecutor. He's again, that in my opinion. Well, guess what? We know and handle the situation to an adversarial proceeding. And I mean, Smith would have switched the bullet. The state in the person of District Attorney Ben Smith claimed that a search warrant gave the state the right to force Kramer to give up the bullet in surgery. Hilton Dupri said on behalf of his client that the forced surgery was tantamount to James Kramer testifying against himself, a clear violation of the Fifth Amendment before it was over. The legal battle for the bullet went all the way to the United States Supreme Court. We'll hear how the issue was resolved. Later in this program, along with the battle for the bullets

and the fall of 1972, there was the simultanous campaign for the office of District Attorney Cobb County. Back in May, Ben Smith had announced his retirement to be effective December 30. First, one of Smith's young assistants, George Buddy Darden, decided to seek the post. He also decided, apparently, to use the pending murder trials as a political launching pad. Darden proclaimed in public appearances and in his campaign literature that he had been appointed to try the upcoming important Matthews cases. Ben Smith recalls Darden's campaign literature. And here he comments on its impropriety. And it was a bulletin, an abrupt bulletin. Darden, assigned to the Matthews case, heard words that if I don't recall the words that was and that shook me when I saw it, I had seen the brochure, but not the bulletin board. OK, let me ask you this. Is that unethical to campaign on a case? Yes, highly unethical to use any particular incident

or case pending. A case pending that involves an office and the d.a.'s office is an office, just not a man. It is, in my judgment, highly unethical. I never did it. I never have done it. Never will do. Did not authorized to be done that time. The only fault that I find in myself is that I didn't go in and say, who in the hell did this? Jimmy Kramer's defense attorney, Hilton Dupri, also recalls other political maneuvers by Buddy Darden in the fall of 1972. But at that time, for political reasons, Mr. Darden wanted to present the indictments to the grand jury. We filed a motion seeking an injunction against Dunn from presenting the indictment to the grand jury on the grounds that it was purely a political scheme to launch him into the d.a.'s office. That particular turn, the judge was prepared to send the order, the injunction.

Smith made the statement to DOD and to others. No further activity will be done on this case until you take office. If you take office, according to the Code of ethics of a Georgia State Bar Association and the American Bar Association, criminal trials should not become political footballs. Buddy Darden and the fall of 1972 apparently thought otherwise. While the battle for the Bulletin, James Cramer's chest and the Campaign for Public Office District Attorney of Cobb County provided much grist for the news media mill. There were other currents secretly underneath the public and highly publicized actions in this case. In a grotto underneath the public mainstream, the police investigation flowed onward. And Ed wouldn't be hall was much apart of the current. That concludes part one of the eye witness who wasn't the Mathew's murder

trials, a production of News and Public Affairs Department of WABE, PFM, Atlanta Public Radio. In part two, we'll take a closer look at the process of creating an eyewitness. No one comes on because they keep the pressure on me and they keep telling me. This is Mike Buckey inviting you to be with us at the same time tomorrow evening for the conclusion of the eyewitness who wasn't.