Crossing; 102

Thank you. Thank you. Welcome to Crossing, a KRWG-TV Special Projects production.

And now your host, Jeremy Hohola. Hello, and welcome to Crossing, a KRWG-TV Special Projects production. Last night, we introduced you to the Minutemen, and those groups that don't like what they're doing. Tonight we have Robert Bean, a Minuteman from southern New Mexico, Hachita, New Mexico, and also joining us is community activist for human rights, Dr. Diana Bustamante of the Las Cruces area. They are here tonight to talk about issues related to the border. But first, our panel participants in their own words. We're fighting for our own identity. We want our borders secure. and um the idea the notion about racism is absolutely false it's a you know it's a thorn in my side i it makes me absolutely sick to have that brought up you know because it is certainly not about racism it's about national security it's about our own identity it's about our sovereignty

and as far as being racist against Mexican people or any other nationality, America is built on that. That's who we all are. But we are citizens of this country and we're saying if you want to come through, come through the gate and sign a guest book. For those people who live across and along the U.S.-Mexico border, we are already tired of the militarized area in which we live and this compounds and lends itself as a way of provoking violence in the communities. We have had stories of the Minutemen going into private properties and they're holding their guns, they're terrorizing the children along the U.S.-Mexico border and this is something that's not acceptable. I'm not against immigration, just illegal immigration. I don't think it, you know, I mean, Mexico's our neighbor, and I've got a lot of good friends

down there. I don't think building a wall like something like in China or something like that is a good thing, but I do think to curtail illegal activity, I would like to see the military down there. Some of the research that we have done has shown that a lot of the elements within the Miniment Project are also racial supremacist groups. And so we're really concerned that this is an anti-Mexican campaign. And because the supremacists live all over the United States, we believe that maybe they're just joining their fellow groups along the U.S.-Mexico border. And now we begin our discussion. The first question for Mr. Bean, how successful do you feel so far the Minuteman project has been? Well, I think we've brought attention not only nationwide but worldwide to the problem.

In the wake of the 9-1-1 terrorist attacks, I think people better wake up and smell the coffee a little bit here and I think we're doing a good job of enlightening people about the risks of not securing our border. Okay Dr. Bustamante you rallied against the Minuteman project what's the problem that you have with this group? Well one of the things that I think that the whole project is tainted with this anti-immigrant sentiment and I think nationally and internationally Yes, it has received some recognition, but in terms of its dehumanizing effect that it has had on the communities themselves that are being affected. Okay, let's talk about that. You said that this is an anti-immigration, I guess, feeling among the Minutemen. Do you believe it's as far as racism? Well, I think that a lot of the, if we look at the history of immigration,

the economic condition of the country is also reflected in terms of the anti-immigrant sentiment that has existed so there's a high correlation between one and the other now mr bean you obviously don't feel that your group promotes racism absolutely not i think this whole idea of racism is um i think it's born out of ignorance and nurtured out of greed that's uh And that should never, you know, I don't see a, you know, if you want to paint a color on it, paint it red, white, and blue. It's about national security. It's about securing our borders and protecting our sovereignty and our way of life and our culture and our language. There's not, there's absolutely nothing racist about it. Okay. You said that your group has captured the attention of the federal government and most certainly the attention of local governments. Right now, do you think the government is responding in a correct way?

No. Right now? You don't think so? If I did, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. Okay. Let's talk about this Senate bill that's in the Senate Judiciary Committee. This Senate bill would essentially create criminal charges for someone who would cross the border. It would be a felony for an illegal immigrant to come into the United States. It would also, if this bill is passed, would criminalize someone like a priest, a nurse, even a doctor that helps an illegal immigrant. Do you think that's the right thing to do, Dr. Bustamante? Well, one of the things that we need to keep in mind is I know that there's some numbers that are being used as far as the influx of immigrants to this country. I think that the focus needs to be on the conditions, the economic conditions, that propel this type of influx to begin with. That's one of the things that we need to really keep the focus on. When we look at historically the immigration reform of the last 50, 60 years has dealt with the control of labor.

And so this, in fact, you know, is a way of going against that type of approach. I don't know. I just forgot the question. I'm sorry. I asked you, if this bill passes in the Senate, it would essentially create criminal charges for an illegal immigrant crossing into the United States. Do you think that's fair? I don't think it's fair to criminalize the undocumented population, because I think that a lot of businesses, a lot of the economy of this country thrives on the labor and the work of people who come from other countries, not just Mexican immigrants, not just the U.S.-Mexico border, but throughout the United States. And so that if we look at the research that has been done in Arizona, in Texas, and in other states, we find that, in fact, this population is contributing billions of dollars into the economy. Okay, let's talk about the economic impact.

Mr. Bean, do you believe that these illegal immigrants are taking jobs away from Americans? Absolutely. What kind of jobs? They're taking money out of our pockets as well as taking jobs. How are illegal immigrants taking money out of taxpayer pockets? Welfare, Medicare, education, housing, you know, you name it, just about every category. Any social program that's out there, you can bet they're lined up for it. Okay. I remember when I was a reporter in El Paso, I remember doing stories on the county hospital there. The hospital felt that they were overwhelmed with indigenous care. It's obvious that illegal immigration does pose a burden to some social services. What's your response to that, Dr. Bustamante? Is there a way we can help control that? You said indigenous. It's actually indigent funding. I'm sorry. I misspoke there. Is there a way we can control that? Well, if we look at the contributions, again, in terms of the economy overall,

The types of services, social service or medical services that are actually being accessed are minimal compared to the contributions that the immigrant population is making to the country. We're talking about financial institutions, we're talking about housing, we're talking about purchasing power, we're talking about tourism. And so those are the kinds of things, in combination, we're talking about billions of dollars that are being poured into the U.S. economy. Okay, let's talk about all the talk going on right now with, like, what was like the Bracetto Program, giving temporary visas to illegal immigrants who want to work here. Do you believe that's a good idea? Well, the Bracetto Program started in 1942 through 1964, which is a 22-year so-called emergency guest worker program that would originally was thought to bring in agricultural workers because of the war effort. Now, we know the history has shown and a lot of researchers have shown that there are a lot of violations in terms of working condition and standards that were being imposed by the law itself. And a lot of the employers were bypassing the restrictions under the Bracero program.

I don't think that a Bracero program like that is something that we would want because of the violations. There were 5 million people that came between 1942 and 1964 during that program. Mr. Bean, do you think it would be fair to give temporary visas to illegal immigrants who would want to work here? I don't think rewarding criminal activity should be rewarded whatsoever. I think they should. I'm not against immigration, but I think they should go through the gate, sign the guest book, and come on in. Okay, let's talk about that gate. And I think they should be willing to assimilate and integrate with our population. Okay, let's talk about that gate. The U.S.-Mexico border is 2,000 miles long. This bill that I've been talking about that's in the Senate Judiciary Committee that if it would pass would essentially build 700 miles worth of fence along the U.S.-Mexico border, specifically, I believe, in Arizona. There's been talk.

People want a barrier, a fence. Even some people have called for a ditch. Do you think that would be a good idea? I'd really hate to see it, personally, because I've lived in Mexico. I've got a lot of friends in Mexico, and I don't think that's a good neighborhood policy, but, I mean, you've got to draw a line somewhere. I mean, you know, me, Casa, is not Sue Casa. You know, respect our property, respect our laws, respect our country, respect our heritage. Respect our culture. Respect our language. Okay. Do you feel, though, that illegal immigrants working here in the United States for low wages actually do contribute to the economy? To their economy. But what about to our economy? It doesn't contribute to mine. I don't see where it helped me. You know, Dr. Bustamani spoke about how the billions of dollars are poured into the U.S. economy. I think most of that money goes back to Mexico. What about the talk of giving the National Guard the power? There's been talk of giving National Guard troops the power to detain illegal immigrants crossing the border.

Do you think that would be a good idea, Dr. Bustamante? Well, I'd like to address the issue of assimilation because I think that also talks to the anti-immigrant sentiment. And in terms of the contribution of the immigrant population in this country, we're not talking about only financial. But this is a multicultural, multi-ethnic country that has thrived on immigrant populations coming in. And so I think it's very healthy to look at the positive effects that a multicultural society would have instead of saying that they have to assimilate to a certain culture. And so that's where the anti-immigrant sentiment and the anti-racist language comes in because we're saying we have to respect our culture. We all have cultures that need to be respected, and we already live in a multicultural and multi-ethnic world. Most European countries are bilingual and trilingual and are very welcoming of a lot of immigrant groups and a lot of interchange between the different cultures, and I think that we are lagging behind in that effort.

So you believe that our society needs to be open, more open? I think when we look at the different languages that are spoken in this country, I think it would be to the benefit, economic and political benefit to this country to embrace the multiculturalism, instead of shying away from saying, no, we're only one, and only English, or only one culture. Okay, now to my last question. People have been talking that the National Guard should have the power to detain illegal immigrants crossing the border. Do you think that's a good idea? Well, we have documentation, and we have worked with other organizations throughout the southwest that have documented some of the abuses and violations of existing immigration legislation and and safeguards for immigrants and other groups of people what we find is that if we have a national guard who are not trained as it is not trained to do immigration policing then we may have problems we have for example the the the the militias that are also taking on the responsibility where the border patrol national police force as the the border

patrol is is supposed to be taking taking into their own hands there's a problem with that and we are concerned that if there are already violations that have been documented abuses that are documented by an official police force then what can we expect from people who are not trained in that area mr b what do you feel about that how do you think the national guard should have the power to detain absolutely would you stop your patrols along the mexico border if that did happen If our borders were secure, absolutely. I'd love to just go on with business as usual. Okay, let's talk about that. When the Minutemen started patrolling the U.S.-Mexico border, even the president came forward and called your group vigilantes, that in this day and age that it should be up to professionals, trained professionals, to patrol the border. What's your response to that? I wish they would. I wish they would.

That is their job. I wish they'd do it. That's what my tax dollars are paying for. I would like to be represented. I would like my country safe. I would like my home secure. I would like for my wife to go out and ride her horse and not worry about being attacked by some immigrant or my home being broken into and my food is stolen, my animals stolen, and that's what happens along the border. Your cattle are stolen, your fences are tore down, your waters are destroyed your homes are broken into your food is stolen your clothes are stolen i mean your guns and not anything of value it's just like hell why not you know i don't think they're just those people are coming here it's not the same kind of people that was coming through back in the 60s and 70s they're just you know a bunch of baggy pants wearing backward hats you know they're not the same kind of people those people that came over here before were hard working people my dad worked them I worked I grew up with them I have a lot

of respect for you know and well it seems that there still are hard-working people crossing the border I mean there still are people who are risking death you hear stories about people being packed in a semi truck dying of heat exhaustion and dehydration it's obvious that people still want to get into this country because that there's jobs here that they want to work for where in Mexico, it's obvious that they feel that they can't hold up a job in Mexico, so they have to come here. How do you think we should go about that? I think that Vicente Fox has a responsibility to his people to make sure that they have a decent life and a decent way of life. I don't I think it's the responsibility of the United States to do it, and I resent that. I think Vicente Fox should be held accountable. Well, Mexico and the U.S. are generally good neighbors.

We rely on Mexico for a lot of things, and Mexico obviously relies on us for a lot of things. Don't you feel that the trolls along the border could potentially be harming foreign relations between U.S. and Mexico? They haven't bothered any of my friends down there. I mean, they asked how they can help. You know, I'm not against immigration. I said come through the gate. I'm against open borders. We have already, how many people died? How many more has got to die? Because we're too unwilling to secure our borders. This Senate bill would put more border patrol along the border, I believe. Or along the I-10. Which one is it, I-10 or the border? I'm not exactly sure, but I heard this bill would add about 12,000 more Border Patrol agents, up to 12,000 Border Patrol agents along the border. Do you think that would be enough? I don't know if it would be enough if they would let them do their job. If they would do their job, maybe. If it doesn't, then get some more. I mean, do what it takes.

No matter what it takes, I think that America is worth fighting for, and it's worth saving. And I would like to leave a record of posterity that, in my dying words, I'll fight to the bloody end. Fight how? Whatever it takes. Let's talk about that. Some of the Minutemen were armed along the border. Why was it necessary for some of your Minutemen to be armed? Well, I was armed. I'm an American citizen. I have the right to own and bear arms. It's my Second Amendment right. Absolutely. I mean, I'm not going out there trying to do harm to anyone. We're not vigilantes like President Bush would like to paint us. We are assisting the law. We are not enforcing the law. We're assisting. That's all. Your response, Dr. Bustamante? i think that uh under the united nations declaration of human rights this is an indirect

violation of the human dignity and uh the the article which is article number five against cruel against against cruel and degrading circumstances i think that the history has shown the documents that we have from other organizations throughout the southwest again is that people have been gone through some torture in some cases going back as far as 25 years ago and recently with people being pistol whipped and held against their will. And I think that this is a very degrading and dehumanizing activity and that not only are the people who are the victims but also the people who are the victimizers become dehumanized in the way they see other human beings. And that's part of the issue. Now, in terms of controlling the borders and controlling the influx, again, we need to go back in terms of the free trade agreements

that allow products and goods to come across the country, but do not allow the people who are being displaced because of the manufacturing of those products in other countries, not just Mexico, but Central America and other countries. And so we need to really start looking at that type of policy, foreign policy that we have with mexico with other countries that create the conditions so desperate conditions thousands and thousands of people who are being displaced from from their their their their their livelihood and then that's what we need to focus on this group is or this this this issue is so polarizing is there any any agreement that you two maybe have about what should be done along the border I doubt it I don't see it I think that part of what we are proposing is to have a permanent educational campaign to look at these issues the economic issues the cultural issues the linguistic issues the dehumanizing effects that this has had on all populations and in particular for people of Mexican descent along the US Mexico border who are here

The majority of people who are here are legal, are U.S.-born citizens, and they are also being harassed by this type of legislation. Mr. Bean, your group still plans on patrolling along the Mexico-U.S. border? Yes, sir. How long do you think it will take? I have no idea. I hope not too long, but I have no idea on that. You know, Dr. Bustamante is talking about this dehumanization. You know, I would think if it's so bad in Mexico that they have to come over here to face that, it must be a hell of a lot worse over there. So why don't we hold Vicente Fox accountable to his people? Well, it has nothing to do with securing our borders. I don't think it's our obligation to take care and babysit Mexico, Central America, South America, Africa. i don't care where you know as nobody's picking on mexico and uh i i don't but i don't believe

that you know that you know the racist deal that that that's a fact of life it happens it happens on both sides don't i don't i don't want to buy this crap about i mean Mexican-Americans getting victimized by it. You know, that's... No. You know, there's just as much on the other side. You know, you gringo salado, this, that, you know. I don't care about that. You know, what we care about is a secure border. Leave the racist out of it. I think this is a good opportunity to have an exchange, and to have an open discussion and communication so that we would have groups like Mr. Beans go to Mexico and to understand and to maybe perhaps have a meeting with people who are in fact being impacted

by these economic policies. I think that once we understand how those issues affect the livelihood of people here, I think we might be able to come to some kind of agreement. Okay, thank you. We're out of time. Thank you both for joining us here. Tomorrow night on Crossing, we will further discuss issues surrounding illegal immigration. Joining us will be Minuteman Bill Norris and community activist Sylvia Sapien. Until then, I'm Jeremy Hohola. Good night. Or Or example is not

honest I you Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.