Memories Of Learning; Clyde Tombaugh, Part 2

băngolololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololol băngololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololol So you were, had already worked at White Sands for nine years, and you had been here for a couple of years when Sputnik was launched. What was your reaction, and what was the scientists? Well, of course, I have worked at the Rockets of White Sands. I knew that we'd have a space age of satellites and orbit and so on, but there was a conservative element everywhere, both civilian and the military, who had thought it was all a bunch of poppycock. So we had quite a few going on about that, you know.

And in fact, I was on a meeting in March and they see about 1955 or somewhere in there, a bunch of them are there, including von Braun, Fred Wepp and a number of people, of how to estimate an artificial satellite, orbit, how to get the data for launching and so on. Well, we held a secret that we didn't, there was no match in May at the time. The Pentagon got hold of it, and they put it in the forbade von Braun to ever fire the third last stage. And they thought it was a ridiculous kind of a stern. Well, when the Russian Sputnik went up, that all changed 180 degrees like that. And I bet there were a lot of heads that rolled in Washington, I bet, over that.

I would guess. And then we had it our way. And so then they got funds to do a lot of the things that experienced necessary as agents to the whole overall effort. And of course, it delighted me because I knew that that would lead to more important industry discoveries and so on and things to do. But it broke the ice. The fact that the Russians did it first was beneficial in a way because that shook people up enough to give more respect to science instead of being a bunch of eggheads. That's when the science fair started, you know, all over the country. The people just turned around like that. They were shocked to think that Russia could beat us in our scientific efforts. That was one of the most romantic moments in history in our country. And so we fared a lot better if that was so we had to do some catching up. And of course, and Fond Brown was given permission to go ahead and develop his thing on the first artificial satellites, which he did.

And so our space ever then developed pretty rapidly. But there was this absolute apathy toward the whole thing prior to the Sputnik in this country everywhere. So we were voices crying in the wilderness until that happened. How about with people like Earl Walden and George Gardner? Well, of course he, I don't know what Walden's attitude was, but I know George Gardner. All these people realized this was an age that was at hand. And of course, there was the more conservative attitude of the Army at the time that what we were doing in White Sands was to test missiles for combat, not to enter the space race in any kind. And of course, in general, the Army tends to be rather conservative in their attitudes on looks in a lot of the cases.

And so when this happened, it should have shook things up from top to bottom. And in fact, I made a recommendation about White Sands after the successful fire on the second stage bumper rocket. And I could see the potential of the future potential of this. And I said, we should start doing some serious thinking about how we're going to instrument these things. I was reprimanded and it says, oh, you were just wasting your time. We'll find these other missiles here. Just forget about it. Well, after the Sputnik went up and things got going, they came on apologize to me for that. But they were short-sighted. So the pioneers always have trouble with the short-sighted people. It's been that way from the dawn of history. And I was in the middle of it. I took a lot of stuff from people who were too short-sighted to see the potential. I've had a whole life of it.

Were there short-sighted people here at the school? Oh, yes. And everywhere. They are the military services, the government. They are all for short-sighted people. Of course, there were some people who weren't short-sighted, but they were drowned out by the greater majority. You know, a lot of people just don't have imagination. And so the thinkers always pay a price for it. It's been that way from the dawn of history. I've been in the middle of it. And I think it hurts sometimes. It hurts pretty bad. To be misunderstood and to be ridiculed for things you knew were vital to progress. Well, even when the car was invented, they said, well, that's the thing. Well, it does scare horses on the road and so on. It doesn't have to be in practical value. In fact, even when one scientist one time reserved, Langley said,

a heavier than air machine is impossible to fly, the airplane. And he said that about two years before the Wright Brothers flew the plane. You always had that kind of thing going on. We had it in this, too. Can you give a current example about, you know, right now in 1987. Something that, in your opinion, is there's a popular disenchantment with something that... Well, there's, of course, the competition for funds on various space projects right now. And a few years ago, they had what they called the project to send special rockets out to the distant planets, even Pluto, called the Grand Tour. It was cancelled in Congress because it didn't run about the money for it. There were other projects that had studied the planets that were turned down and the funds were cut off. And so it goes on all the time.

And of course, after the shuttle disaster, that really put it crimping thing because they had... They expected to put up a space telescope last August. Of course, after the shuttle disaster, that got postponed for quite a while. It may go up by another year. But they had gotten teams together. Facilities are all ready to start handling the data when that was launched, after that was launched. Now they have nothing to do. If it was absolute chaos, to all the people who had these projects on, and nothing to do with no data coming in, it hurt. If it was a hardship, and it's not easy to get specialized teams together and the various talents to tackle these problems. Most scientific work nowadays, they cross a team effort of specialists to work together. No one person knows enough to be a four-hour for most of the stuff nowadays. It's gotten too complicated.

Too sophisticated. Takes very expensive equipment. And then, of course, that means a big money. And then you have trouble getting funds. So always a battle for funds. And this year, about December, I'd have to prepare a renewal project, a renewal proposal for NASA to continue my plan in patrol. And that came at the time, and then in the semester, all the exams, Christmas, and everything else, I went through AL every year. And wondering if I'd have to tell my workers the next month, they didn't give me funds, you don't have a job. But that haunted me all the time. There's still haunts people in this kind of work. And a lot of them get battling hard. It was on all the time. I think there's any hope for like a five-year funding cycle or something? Well, they finally did get so they had what they call a three-year phase out of thing, so it didn't phase out all of a sudden.

But the politicians simply do not understand that some scientific projects that you studied for a decade, you can't get the answer in one year. They think you've got to have an answer within one year. They don't understand science. And that's the problem we have, and you can't get the longer, the projects that require longer interval time to deal with it. Father, you can't get funds for it without great difficulty. Still have these problems. When you get in the politics, you get in some all-for-short-sided dealings. And that's supposed to always be that way. I haven't seen you in that up yet. Then we get a little help. It's crazy to have some other things break. It's very good, and then things get tied again, you know? This goes all the time. Well, the Bible, remember the seven fat years and seven years. That's the way it goes, that's the way it goes.

And then if some breakthrough or some event happens, somewhere else in the world that changes the trend. And of course, with one of the big breakthroughs that came that should have fallen into the war, World War II, was a use of these German vehicles to explore the upper atmosphere, which before had never been accessible to currents from it's up in those regions. Here was a marvelous breakthrough. Send things out in Valhallaum discovered the Valhallaum balance, and all this kind of thing, you know. Here was enormous breakthrough because of the developed German V2 rocket for scientific purposes. And so an awful lot was learned about the Earth's wrap wraps out your quadsans. It was one of the best places in the world for a big leap forward and understanding the universe. And of course, the things were spectacular enough,

and I finally got enough support to have these big missiles, like the poles that went to the moon, you know? My and the deep space probes know what a marvelous a bunch of information they obtained. But the people who had this imagination finally went out for a while. Now I'm getting curved again a little bit a little bit. So, and of course, to my own embarrassment, the United States was too tight of money to even send one single space probe to Common Halley. Other nations did that, including Japan, Germany, and Russia, and the European Group and Russia. We did not have a space probe to have this common. Trying to save money. Reagan had this attitude to waste the money. He did not appreciate scientific work.

He had these obsessions. He wanted to finance his war in Nicaragua, and he has no trust in the Russian, his own. And he cut out all these social problems that Russia has heard. And I think one thing that I feel bad about is that some of these problems he has cut out. There are a lot of school kids who are going to be malnourished because of these cutting out of these less programs. They helped a lot of poor kids who have been sacrificed for his cutting out of some of these social problems, as much as I think it was a mistake. He was going to drop in the bucket. Now, I don't like that. And so, now he's gotten us in this best of the wrong. Well, it's going to be one of the toughest things, even talking about foreign relations, but even in a state legislature trying to decide, I mean, it's an agricultural state. It's changing. It's changed a lot in 30 years. I mean, Albuquerque was a little big town.

Now it's a city. Metropolis. The same with bus cruises. It was a little town. Now it's a little city. But still, in terms of what provides jobs for the people and provides income in the next 10, 20 years, agriculture, extractive industries. Of course, in the oil and gases, decline in price has hurt the state pretty badly, where it's for the funds. Probably cyclical, though. Or it'll change again eventually. But in the meantime, a lot of things suffer. Oklahoma and Texas think of our hurt worse than we were. Texas used to have a customary lot of money. Now they're in financial straits. That's come a new experience for Texas. They've placed that for 30 years. Yeah, they. And Scorsese means, in fact, it's modernist, it's spread or it's considered a private country.

And the universities are having a fruitful time of it. And so we're going to have a slower pace for one to something changes again. Since we're talking about the present, I was wondering if you could take another leap and maybe mention how you'd like to see this university develop and change over not just a short stretch of another 10 years, but let's say over a long stretch of another 30 or 40 years. Well, of course, my would be kind of lopsided because my knowledge is an astronomy part of it. And now, of course, you know about our big telescope we're getting up there, which I think will be a big thing for the university. It's an astronomy for other universities. That size telescope will be very effective in really top-notch astronomical research projects. And, of course, that part will help the university's future.

We will have the strength in our astronomy department. We will have the service where they can do really advanced marvellous data for their dissertations and so on. And, of course, we have the White Sands Missile Range, which has a lot going on there. A lot of research as well as testing going on there. And the two to combine here makes kind of a good combination. Now, of course, I understand they're going to get this laser thing over there about our grandi. So, but in the looking in the future, it's kind of hard to predict what all will happen. 30 or 40 years is almost bounding by its imagination and things go away. Of course, one of the big things we have seen and transformed everything was the extremely rapid development

of the computer past two or three decades, especially the last two decades. It just took over and then the use of the laser. In medical science, the laser is marvelous things, performed surgery without cutting through and so on. You see, some of these breakthroughs like this, you can't quite foresee what all will develop out of it. But a lot does develop out of these things. And of course, the research they've got, they knew more proper electron microscope here that the point's working with. Biology, who knows what all of them, they got there. And genetic engineering and studies of physics, atomic physics, and chemistry course, or they're having various kind of complicated compounds. And of course, we have a very good knowledge department here now,

a big one. And of course, we have a strong, I think, a strong agricultural research thing here at the University. And good engineering, we have some very good engineering here, as I understand it. So usually, at that time, other people, what their perspective is in looking ahead in the future. Do you think of general education? Let's talk about maybe just undergraduates or components. Do you think of general education with as much background in the humanities and social sciences as important, or do you think it's more important for people in the sciences to get into a specialty and really dig in and get deep into their field so that they can keep up with, not keep up with, but get started in, get started strongly in what is advanced specialist,

specialized, technical field. Well, I think you need both plunges. You need the humanities also to give a sort of a philosophical perspective in relation to everything else. I think that's necessary. I think that there have been cases where some scientists are too narrow-minded and they had no appreciation of that effect and it has not been as productive. And of course, we also need specialists because we have to have people know a lot about a few special things, no. Then you have to have those who have a general knowledge of, no, although it's something they're everything, but not being an expert in any one thing. You need all that to integrate stuff, you see. So, I think you need all kinds of forms there. I think anyone danger we can over-specialize too narrow a field and be one thing we get us in trouble. Because we live in a world where everything is related to everything else. And I think you've got to have a developed, a broader perspective

for the smoother running and better outcome. I interviewed a fellow who is in the engineering department here for a really long time. I was going to read you something he said to get your reaction to it. He said, I was asking him about advanced technical research and he started talking about the Trinity site, the bomb at White Sands. He said, research such as that, such as the atomic research has to go on. I regret that so much of it goes to the killing side. I have great fear that it's a controlling factor today. Harm's manufacture is the stimulus that keeps a good part of our economy going. Eisenhower was right that you better be aware of the industrial military conglomeration.

I think that is a very important thing in the day. I think Eisenhower had a very wise statement. We can have selfish collusions of the military with industrial. I think we're suffering with somewhat right today. In what way? Well, some of the very sophisticated war planes or tanks or stuff. We do need to have the best. Don't misunderstand in that. But some of the things they over-sophisticate them to where the point where they're not that is really reliable, more costly and don't get the job done. Because somebody has some too high flutant ideas about any little practical sense about it, you see. And yet some of those people have a say in that and they make things that are really not suitable. They support a lot of money into it. I still don't know about this thing laser, the STI thing.

I think it has extremely great problems involved. And I don't know. I'm not at all sure that it would be effective umbrella. And the thing that worries me is that it may back up the nation if we are under that. One of the things that bothers me on that, of course I say I don't want to be an enemy in the search on. We need to explore studying, as we study on it. But I want to raise this one question. In the event of a Russian attack, where there are thousands or 10,000 of these rockets coming out with these warheads. How are you going to come and do your all the electric engines you need to power these lasers to shoot them out within 10 minutes? That's a good question. Otherwise, a lot of them are going to be thrown out and being wiped out. Now I wonder if they really fucked that over. That's why I'm skeptical about it as an effective way

to turn us. And I have to be frank about it, and all people are likely for saying that. Now the majority of scientists feel the same way I do about it. Well, this ties into something else I was going to ask you about, which was that in my research, what I've sort of a significant data I uncovered in terms of the growth of the school related to research, was 1962, and in 1962, that was the year that the state appropriation for the University of North County capital improvements was 3.62 million. And in that same year, 1962, the grants and contracts to PSL from the military by a large amount of military reached 3.68 million. In other words, it surpassed it for the first time. What I'm interested in your views about is

a number of other people I've interviewed have made various statements about pure research versus applied research. What if around the theme of the piper that he who pays the piper calls the tune? To some extent, that's a restriction on pure research because you're paid to do certain things and that's what you're going to do, because that's where the money is. Did you give a reaction to that? I think the PSL has an important relationship with the University here on that. We have to carry on research. A lot of things we don't know the potential to explore them, and that means research, you see. And it has a beneficial effect of the University. Because of PSL, there have been lots of students, hundreds of students, who were able to go through and get a college education because of the working part time

and never made it otherwise because of PSL. And I think that's a very beneficial thing. Where you have technology, the seed of it, of course, is in universities. And of course, they're going to be involved in military pockets. There's no other way to do the job. But of course, a lot of people think it's so or more. We have to be defensive, yet we've got to try to work toward a world piece. I want to see us have adequate defense. But I don't want to see a microphone away on frivolous and practical projects. Because we can't afford all those things. We are in rather serious shape, economic in this country right now, whether people are better or not. But we are not in very good shape. We have factories working at only three-quarters capacity because of foreign competition and goods. People are out of work by the hundreds of thousands on this country.

We're not very good shape. We're in trouble. And of course, this involves foreign policy. What do we do? We have the labor union problem. We have the capital problem. A lot of our capital has gone out of the country because you can get more than a manufactured cheaper outside whether it's cheaper labor. Our labor unions are cutting their own throats in this country. I hate to say that, but I'm afraid that's the case. They have the wrong attitude to our good workmanship. The cars in major America spend more time in graduate than those of foreign cars. And so if people are going to buy the car that worked before it's better, and then they wonder why that was the trade. The Japanese can make darn good cars, better than we do. Because they've got a better attitude to making better products. Well, some people say that since, especially since World War II, the so much of the brain power, the engineering, know how,

not to mention the manufacturing ability of the country has gone into weaponry, and not enough into consumable goods and services, whether it's cars or refrigerators or peanuts. Well, of course, I'm not that hard. I don't know what this is. I don't take, I could give a reliable worthwhile answer to that. I know it does take up a lot, but we also have a great, a large number of engineers in science. And a lot of them can't even find jobs after running fillings and things like that. There's not a job. I find it a little hard to believe that that is hurting our manpower. It's not a manpower. I'm not a dog for nothing. Well, I found out a couple of weeks ago, I mean, in terms of pay scale, and what is attractive to a young person getting a job, there's a secretary only working three years. No, I guess she's been there five years.

It works at TRW. But it's space-com. And she's earning a higher salary than I am. I'm 10 years older than she is. I have a master's degree. I have 10 years of university experience. And she's earning more than I am. Same state, same town. But she's working for the military, for TRW, for defense. And I'm working for a state university. Yeah. I mean, I don't see how... I mean, there's... Well, then what enters into it is, are you doing what... Do you think it's the right thing? Well, let me mention another thing that I think is quite a factor. In general, not always. In general, we tend to have an inferior bunch of teachers in our secondary schools and mathematics and sciences, because those people get much better salary on other projects, involving the military or other scientific things, you know, or even industry.

They can outbid the school's salaries for that kind of training. And our schools are paying their penalty for it, you know? And so it was proposed that they be paid more. Then the other teachers said, oh, you're being discriminatory. You're discriminating against us. Why are you going to solve this problem? We're in trouble there. And so we tend to have, of course, a lot of exception. In other words, some people are teaching in those fields who are very good, but we don't have enough of them. Where a lot of those and the schools have mediocre teachers in those fields. And that's a pity. And, of course, that affects the people who are trained to be the future ones. That's what... That's going to even more. And as long as they have these fields between these conflicting areas, I don't know how we're going to solve the problem. Do you think it takes some kind of planning?

Well, I'll take the planning by the way. It's going to take some, I feel, more political horse sense in appreciation. There's too much greed and narrow-minded thinking and politics, as well as behind this. Now, like this school thing, this voter down, did you get the funds for? What are you going to do about that? After the funds run out. The people are not... It didn't get support. Our bonds on that didn't get support. You wonder what the heck is going to happen? If people aren't going to pay for education, we are going to be a second-rate nation in a hurry. Aren't we? How do you reverse this thing, this trend? You're going to have to have another spook neck to change people's minds on this? Probably will happen. I wouldn't be surprised. And then I'd drop people enough to give this and face the facts for a while.

Don't it until the interest plays out? That's where I see it. And... So, if the Russians pull off some great space-spectakers, we may have a repeated spook neck. The Russians aren't dumb. Not by our long ways. Some of the cleverest people on earth. But we seem to think they are not. So we're underestimating the potential of a possible enemy. And that's disastrous. No, that's right. No, that's all right. Well, that's all right. You need the light for the camera. Well, I can lift it up a foot. So I wasn't so bright in your eyes. I might help a little bit. I see you're showing your face now. Yeah, that's better. And then we have another thing that disturbs me very much. Everybody wants to sue everybody these days.

Too many lawyers want to make a living. They have made it so difficult for the medical profession that they have to have these expensive medical expenses to pay for the expensive payments against lawsuits. So they have practically ruined the medical profession. And I think that's a terrible mistake. Greed is our biggest sin in this. And I think the source of that is. I mean, not just with lawyers and doctors and... Well, it's just... There are too many lawyers. They want to make a living. So they encourage people to make lawsuits. I mean, why has Greed been on the rise instead of charity? I don't know. I guess it's a deterioration of public attitude. Too much emphasis on money, big money. And that can get us all kinds of trouble.

But I view this medical situation with alarm. There are a lot of people who are going without medical, essential medical service. They said we can't afford it at the expensive misery because it's just gotten beyond their means. How does that... Because I'm still trying to relate this back to this university, there's not to be... It doesn't happen to be either a med school or a law school here. How do you agree it relates to what goes on on the campus in terms of the interactions between administrators and faculty and staff and students? Well, of course, the administration, supposedly, is coordinates the activities of the university. I suppose you always have some kind of a little battle

between them, but I think that people have the idea of making big money, fast money. It's gotten to the point of dominating our thinking. You don't have enough public loyalty or you might say sensitivity to deal with our current social problems today. So I think that the Sun is going to have to be done about it. I think there's anything on educational institution that the university could do about that. I don't know. I think this is something the politician has to deal with. They accept the pace of everything they've been talking about. I think it's up to them. They're going to have to take an attitude. The schools are at the mercy of the politician anyway. So I don't know if the university's going to accept

and accept by trying to lobby or pressure them in certain measures. And the ultimate sense is the politician who runs a country. And I think the president had been run rather badly. Well, I mean, as much as profit and loss is a factor when you talk about private concern of business at a university, I realize there are exceptions to the rule. So it's not like a higher-end-clad protection. But you work here in this day and age anyway. You work here for six years. You come for tenure. And you get tenure. If you're a grand tenure. And then except for moral turpitude or taking a shot at some president or dean or something, you're set. That's right. Unless you like going to sleep in your office every day for eight hours and expect a paycheck. But it seems like there is, again, not higher-end-clad,

but there's a fairly solid amount of protection in there. If professors had the wherewithal to create not out of nothing but work together to make an environment where human concern, knowledge, and a higher or stronger, more durable sense of values was taught and encouraged. Is that, I mean, is that the... Yeah, I think tenure has an advantage and also a disadvantage. Some people tend to get lazy and that's unfortunate. On the other hand, the person who has tenure knows that he will... unless he does something really terribly wrong, he will have support to continue his maybe lifelong research problems and dreams.

I have no worry about the economic situation. If a man has a happier situation, nothing can do better work. But if you're wondering whether you're going to have a job the next month, so that's pretty disquieting. And so that's the advantage of having tenure. I think you have to have that class of the building in university to have a good university, but I say it can also be abused. Well, but those conditions could be for any kind of research or any kind of activity. That's right. I mean, especially those in the universities which have researchers extended over quite a long period of time, you have to have kind of thing to have kind of redefinition, as I see it. So that's one of the big advantages of tenure. How about this element, though, of some kind of an institution that if not promotes at least retains some higher values than just making a big profit greed?

Well, I think I seem to have the impression that a lot of the professors love their work and their profession and work hard to press it forward and be effective in it because they love the subject. I think that a lot of them that agreed is not the top in the motive in their life at all. Some of them are. But I think they're interested in the field as a discipline because they love the subject. It's the subject matter. It's alive. And so I think they're going to do reasonably well. I would think that probably the people who should not get tenure get weeded out before they get it. If they're poor teachers, poor researchers, they don't get in there. And I think there's somewhat an automatic weeding out, but not in all cases. But I think tenure is a necessary thing to add stability

for the well-being and professional attainment of the professors is to have some kind of a reasonable guarantee that they can continue for the rest of the lives. Now, I feel that way, but if I had to keep worrying about my job the next year and month, I don't think I could constrain my problems. This is sort of vaguely in that line, but it's a shift of topics again. As you observed, when you came to the area in 1946, the school was a little over 2,000. Now, it's over 12. What do you think about the change not only in the... I thought so much interested in the physical change of the campus. That's pretty obvious, but the social environment and the intellectual environment. How do you think that's changed? Well, I think it's getting a little better lately. For a while back, we had some dismay about students

being rather poor expression or language and just not good students. They didn't seem to have a sufficient background. We had an awful lot of remedial courses. This doesn't look very good, but I think it's probably improvements I know others may differ with me, but... Of course, there are some hundred students in the university that don't belong to the university. There's a temporary that's totally unsuited for that kind of life or as a life profession. They just don't have it. The university education is not for everyone. This is a discipline of learning that you've got to be mentally fit for it, otherwise you're wasting the state's money. And I used to tell my kids, students in class, I said, I want to tell you something, first day in semester, class.

I said, you may think that you're paying a lot of money for education, but I said, you want to dig in and study hard because it's costing you money and the state is paying two-thirds of your bill. Don't let the state down. That's what I tell them. So, everybody's got to tell them, otherwise how will they know it? So, why told them? What kind of answers did you get? Well, they didn't make answers, but I think they can press some of them, at least out. This, of course, was to do more thorough study. Did the masters of their subjects? I think the places become more, from stories I've heard, I mean, it gets more romantic as you get back to the 30s and 20s when the school was 500, 600 students. But it seems like this real vast growth, quadrupling in size, quintupling in size,

over just 30 years, seems like the personal touch may have suffered. Do you have any observations about that? Well, as the school gets bigger, of course, there is some of that to be true. Of course, the state's population is increased and also, due to the technological age, there is more innate of training in the things that the university can train them for. So, this is another reason why we have a considerable increase in the moments. In my lifetime, since I was in grade school, the population of this country has tripled, or that that's shocking, since I was in grade school. But I made it one hour, I won't, I won't time. Well, the alternative would have been, I don't, again, I'm not, well, you know, you can have good hindsight all the time,

but I'm not interested so much in that as to say, where should the state go from here, or what should we do currently, but it seems like in this state, there's these two real big schools, and then there's three or four little tiny ones that are hardly shown, well, they have shown some growth, but not much. And when people talk to me about what a friendly place this used to be, and then I look around today, I wonder, well, maybe the school ought to work on being, not only having high quality in terms of its buildings, its facilities, its teachers, its staff, students, but it ought to let some of the other schools grow so it doesn't become such a, such a little big city in itself, and it pertains to some of that small town, the front limits. Well, of course, that's a factor. Of course, on the other hand, you have to have some big schools

because some of the equipment they have to be trained for is to expensive for small schools to afford. You would only have partial use of the expensive equipment, in that case. So I'd say those students who, as a field, chosen field, involve expensive training equipment, they should go to the two big universities. Now, the others, of course, that aren't so big while that's fine. Of course, as always, this debate on, should we have both types? Should we have branch colleges? Yes or no, trade schools and so on. I think we have a probably need of all of them, but some claim that we, it's not efficient, you should have money to have several small ones. But on the other hand, as you say, they probably have more friendly personalities and atmosphere there than in some of the big schools. It's like a city. You get to the biggest city. You don't even trust your next-door neighbor, do you? So you have a lot of confidentiality,

and contact, and where it happens in schools also. So the question of size is a good question. So I don't know what it's an answer. These are some of the problems that will specify the sociology and answer better than I could. We only have a few minutes left. Is there a, I'm going to kind of put you on the spot with this question, and you know, if you can't, I'm going to ask you who you think in your 40 years in the area you think was the most influential person to use specifically, although that would be fine too, if that's what your answer was, but to the university. And why? And if you can't think of one or a camp, if you don't want to pick somebody out, that's okay, but I think it's an interesting question. Well, each one had a different type of contribution to make.

It would be hard to say. Well, instead of picking the most, pick somebody that's kind of important that maybe you haven't mentioned yet, or we haven't talked about yet. Well, I think ex-President Thomas made a great contribution to the school. Of course, he was just a food problem. And this is a big world problem. And of course, the Cultural School has grown and like that. And it was necessary as needed. And I guess some of our politicians that don't think I'm right now have been rather beneficial. Well, it just takes a whole bunch of them. And of course, we've had, I got a white sands muscle range. We've had some outstanding generals come in there

who have made great contributions as the only mediocre ones. I've known a lot of generals quite well. You just have top-level meetings with them on different firms that bring in their own missiles. And we had to be able to have top-level conferences with the general and his officers, top-notch civilian supervisors, to see what kind of data they wanted for their missiles. You know, blessed data and so on. And so we could plan on how to get that data. So I've had a lot of experience with high military officers. I know pretty much how they think. This has been one of the rewarding things of working with the Army. It's as frustrations too. I just also had us rewards. So I feel that I got a... How would you describe how the top general command military officers think? I think they do very well. I think their conscience is thin. They have to be very good executives or they wouldn't be in the general status. The Army has a practice, you know,

that if you don't have it, sooner or later you're going to be asked to get out of it. And those who have extraordinary ability will eventually reach to be a general some kind. Before the career is over. If they don't have it, they're invited to leave after some time. You cannot stay in one rank forever in the Army. It doesn't work that way. And you can see why. It means that they're not progressive enough. They've always got to have... It's got to be progressive. It's got to serve the purpose of the defense of the country. You've got to have people who do some thinking. And a lot of the officers are darn good. I know a lot of them. And some of them weren't so good. And then you find some things to be in life. But in general, I would say that, when you get into the general class, you've got a group of remarkable men, very talented men. Are they good to get the job done? So that's been my experience there.

In the same way in universities, a good president makes things move. And good deans. They make parties. Others who are not so much that way, then they tend to become second-rate departments. You know, schools. It works so I like that everywhere. Also in the industry, I'm sure. Although I haven't had much experience in the industry. This is another complete change of topic, but I wonder if you'd... You have a good answer here. Yeah, sure. I think to get on tape if you can share it with us some of your favorite astronomical puns. Oh. I saw those things on your door, and I'd never heard that... Like this here? Yeah, I'd never heard that mention about it. I thought maybe verbally, there were some old favorites of yours that... Well, I like to call myself the O'Poodle Grad. And that gets a laugh, you know, people. Well, then I make puns, I think,

it's a kind of a mental exercise, induces use of words and language, sharpens your wit. You know, I can't remember very many puns, but when the circumstances rise, it comes in at the moment. It's what makes it good. If not, it isn't any good, you see. And I don't remember them. But a few of them. And it, in general, is humor. We need more humor in this world. And I like to think that I brighten some people's lives a little bit with it. Some people think puns are horrible, but I still insist that, although the puns may be the lost form humor, it's better than none at all. So... I was hoping when I walked in here, if you thought maybe your office was going to look like the surface of Pluto when we get there. Well, there might be some landslides, but I'm hoping to get some of this down. I've been... Maybe with that visual.

Oh, the Pluto. Oh, I don't think the stuff in here looks much like the surface of Pluto. You need some methane frost on it. There's that one Pluto. And... I've got to go through a lot of stuff. I've... I've let them do this, going through some stuff, and that which has some historical interest, I get it to those people. A couple years ago, I gave 19 years of subscription to the American Optical Journal to the Physics Department. And then I had no more further use for it. And they didn't even have some of those anyways. Not even the library here. And so that was a really good place to put it. So I'm trying to go through stuff. I'm throwing away, and some needs to be saved. There's so many pieces that take time to do it. But I've been so busy with these other things lately that they're probably best you on the Pluto that have people after you all the time that I've just gotten behind.

Well, my desk has stacks about four or five inches high. So maybe when I... If I'm looking up to get to your age, I'll be able to aspire to stacks like this. But I can see it in my own future. Well, I worry about it. I get those things at home, and I... You forgot. I've got to get something done about this. Well, I think we're finished. Okay. You can stop tape, please, Ruben. I sure appreciate your time. You're welcome. I think we had a... Well, for me, it was a very interesting discussion. Thank you. I'm looking here. I'm looking for you.