Black Journal; No. 606

This program was made possible by a grant from Pepsicola Company. This edition of Black Journal is dedicated to the St. Louis Sentinel, the St. Louis

Argus, and the St. Louis American, members of the Crusading Black Press, serving of course St. Louis Missouri. The 10th largest black community in the United States. Our theme on this series is black centennial, but we don't mean 100 years of living. What we mean is the black presence yesterday and today. Although our theme is historical and contemporary, this edition will emphasize the present-day issues of Afro-Americans. The special edition will feature a discussion around the question, should blacks participate in the bicentennial activities? There are basically two schools of thought. One school asks, are we celebrating 100 years of slavery and racism? Others believe that we should celebrate our role in making America what it is. With me to discuss these questions are Laurent Bennett, senior editor of Ebony magazine and author of the shaping of black America, and the honorable John Calhoun, special assistant to the president of the United States. I'd like to welcome you gentlemen. I will call you Laurent because I know

you've been a little bit appropriate to call you Mr. Bennett. Laurent, you have been singled out almost as the spokesman, spokesperson, for the ideological point that blacks should resist celebrating America's 200th birthday. Am I basically correct? I don't know whether I'm a nationalist spokesman for that point of view, but I believe that's certain in some people. In the issue that Ebony did, the special issue on the bicentennial, there were basically three points and yours was used as the adamant no. Would you clarify that point for me? I take the position that black people should not participate in any way in the bicentennial because 200 years of past in this country and black people are not free. I take the position secondly that it's unprecedented in world history for an oppressed people to celebrate their oppression. It just blows the mind. I take the position thirdly that not only black people, I say that no one in this country should celebrate anything. We haven't done anything to celebrate.

We've got to do it. Fundamentally my position is this, that we are celebrating the anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. All men were created equal. I'm saying in 1776, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and 95 to 99 percent of the white fountain fathers didn't believe it, and I'm saying that 200 years later, 95 to 99 percent of the people in this country, white people in this country today do not believe it. Under those circumstances, there's nothing to celebrate. Is there a danger that you are eliminating the ability of black people to survive in the face of these ver obstacles that you've now just documented? That's a very good point, Tony, and I'm very sensitive to people who bring up that point of view, but I think it confuses two issues. All my life, certainly the last 15 to 20 years, I have been talking about black people making themselves more aware, and other people more aware of how we help to create this country.

That's the thing we ought to keep before the public as much as possible. That's a different question from the question of whether we should celebrate 200 years of freedom in America. We haven't had 200 years of freedom in America, and I'm opposed to any connection of our experience with that burlesque in this country. Mr. Calhoun, I would assume being in the office that you are in, that your views of black participation in the vast interior might be different. I'll ask you a specific question. Do you believe that blacks should celebrate America's 200th birthday? Well, certainly, Tony, I think that there are several schools of thought as you pointed out earlier, but there can be no celebration without black celebration. We've been here, we've participated in every aspect of American life. We've influenced, we've impacted on the music, on the medicine and industry, every aspect of American life. We've been there, so if we recognize America,

and I'm sure that the option boils down to one, America is recognized. It is a country. We are the leader, as it relates to the free world, as it relates to democracy. We are the longest, the oldest democracy, and blacks have been here. We've contributed a great deal, and of course, we ought to participate. It's a good time to dramatize what we have done, to make those others in the society, in the system aware of what we have done, and to help build a legacy for the future for our people. If we celebrate the role that blacks have played in making America what it is, aren't we really implicitly saying we're happy with what America is? Well, I don't think you'll find any black that will say that we're happy with the way things are in the country completely at this time. True, we've come a long way though, Tony, and that's the thing that we've got to acknowledge. We came here many of our ancestors in chains, and

today we're across the board. We're visible in every aspect of American life. We have black millionaires. We have black business people. We have, well, your publisher, for example, is a true success story. Johnson Publishing Company is a story to be emulated around the world as it relates to success. He started with practically nothing, where the loan is honest, and he parlated into one of the greatest publishing companies in the world, and so that is success. I would just like to make the point that, again, I have problems with extraneous issues. In 1776, the fact that some individuals who were making some bread were doing well was irrelevant. It was relevant in 1776 as relevant in 1976. For example, George Washington was fabulously wealthy. He had more than 200 of some slaves, but he understood that freedom has something to do with a man's soul, a man's integrity, whether a man is free, in fact. He went out to make a

revolution in support of his freedom. I have problems when people associate this with some cats who have done rather well here. That's one thing. The other thing is our black people free in the society. In addition to that, Brother Calhoun, I always, I would say this in normal times, but these are not normal times for black people. Black people are in a major depression in this country. Unemployment rate in the black community is 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 percent. There are urban league, which is a responsible black organization. The NAACP, a responsible organization, both have recently come out with statements saying that we have been wiped out in this country. Under those circumstances, I just celebrate. Well, first of all, I disagree with the fact that we're up to 40, 50 percent unemployment. There are pockets, true, detoured as a pocket, but as I understand it, the mayor was in Washington a couple days ago, and he said that he's down to

about 12 percent. I think that we see unemployment on the downward spiral as opposed to the upward spiral. There are a number of ways of looking at this. Now, true, the economy is bad. It's bad with everyone. It's not only bad with the markets, bad around the world. I think we're looking at an international crisis and so forth, the economics go. And so, it impacts upon us greater as black people, primarily because a majority of our people are at the bottom end of the spectrum as it relates to getting along in the system. But nonetheless, there are so many things that you can't measure in terms of economics. And I think when you look at the impact we've had on people around the world from a cultural sense, when you look at the contributions blacks have made in the cultural world, there's no way you can say that we haven't done something and that we don't have anything to celebrate. I'd just like to make this point. We're talking across

purposes. We don't have any disagreement, Brother Calhoun, about what black people have done. I think our disagreement is around the question of why, how they have done that. I say they have done these things despite the fact that white Americans have not lived up to the Declaration of Independence, not because they have lived up to the Declaration of Independence. I say we must always be celebrating our survival, our endurance in this culture. What I'm saying, Brother Calhoun, is that the Declaration of Independence has never had an meaning in this country, does not have an meaning in this country today. I'm saying, bluntly, Brother Calhoun, George Washington didn't believe it 200 years ago, Gerald Ford doesn't believe it in 1976. Now, and what I propose, if you just let me, you know, I don't propose that black people go off and shut the door, I have said what we ought to be doing in this bicentennial year is making the Declaration of Independence a reality. And I say we ought to do it before July the 4th, 1976. And we ought to be doing it on

the federal government level, on the state levels. We've got no time to celebrate. I mean, blacks or blacks and whites. I mean, black people, white people, all Americans before July the 4th, 1976, ought to be doing something to make this country worthy of celebration. Well, may I say something? First of all, I think that you have no argument with me when you made the statement that the Declaration of Independence and the American Dream has not been met. It has not been fulfilled. And it has not been fulfilled for the total system for all of America. It has not been fulfilled. Again, our being on the lower end of the totem pole, it affects us much more. It's more dramatic as it relates to our people. But I think on the other hand, we have an obligation, we have a responsibility to make that system be more responsive and to be more effective. When Martin Luther King was marching from Birmingham, he said, give us the vote. And we'll change

the system. We'll make the system responsive. We got the vote. And last time around about 30% of the blacks voted in a national election. So we didn't utilize the political system. And as it relates to the economic system, and these are two powerful forces in our society, in our democratic way of life, we oftentimes do not patronize black businesses in the country. We'll walk past a black bank and go 10 blocks to another bank that will not give a loan to a black that wants to refurbish his house in the inner city area. And I think what we're talking about here is renewed confidence in ourselves and in our own ability to do things because it's black, it's not wrong. It can also be right. Assuming your logic that blacks should participate and celebrate the bicentennial, then why is it that the American Revolution by Centennial Committee has such a serious omission of black contributions in the activities and the national activities

of the bicentennial celebration? Well, that's totally false, Tony. Every aspect of American life is involved in some manner in the bicentennial. You feel the blacks are documented in the bicentennial celebration? Yes, adequately. Well, I'm not going to say adequately because I think this type of thing we need more research. We need more people. But do you feel who? Well, let me make my point. That is that we do not have the adequate research. Our history, the American history, and I agree with him, has not been written correctly. It has not been written to reflect the contribution of all of the people. But those who were planning the historical events that they're now presenting this year about whites, obviously didn't research blacks at all if they had time to produce activities about whites, why not activities about blacks? Let me make my point. And the point is that the black institutions and our various facilities, our historical sites, etc, are very much a part

of the bicentennial celebration. I know in Philadelphia there are several sites, for example, regarding past contributions of blacks that the bicentennial commission has put a lot into. In addition to that, they've encouraged the departments and agencies to contribute and to participate. The Smithsonian Institution, for example, has done a great deal of research. They put together some displays, some traveling displays, some documents, and photos, and things of this sort that will be seen around the country for cities at the same time. So I think it's totally erroneous to say that they have excluded us. The Methodist Church, for example, AME Church, for example, has been given status as an official bicentennial organ, and they have churches in every principal city and in parts of Africa. So they are doing a great deal of research. Let me then agree again with your logic and remove my statement from the bicentennial administration to

corporate white America, which basically through its money is funding the commercial television activities reminding Americans of their birthday. Would you agree with that? Yes, I think that then we are seriously left out of corporate white America's remembrance of our 200th birthday. We're talking about the private sector. That's true. Now they are doing something, as a matter of fact, one of the roles of the bicentennial commission is to get private sector involved in projects and ideas. They give seed money and hopefully the private sector will pick up the ball and do some additional things. They have not done what I feel they should have done and what they could have done as it relates to explaining our role in the building of America. We'll be back with more on this issue after this message from Frederick Douglass. What then to the American black slave is your Fourth of July? I answer. A day that reveals to him more than all of the days in the year, the gross injustice to which he

is the constant victim to him, your celebration is a sham. Your posted liberty on holy license, your denunciation of tyrants, grass, spotted impudence, your national greatness swelling vanity, your sorts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery, your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanks gibbons, with all your religious parade and solinity after him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety and hypocrisy, a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation on the face of the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody

than the people of the United States at this very hour. I'm talking with Laurent Bennett, historian and John Calhoun, special assistant to the president of the United States. Tony, I have a problem with three areas that Brother Brown explored. I'd like to take them out. One is that the question of what the blacks are doing as much as they should to make this country a democracy. I think all Americans are obligated to struggle more. I think all Americans are obligated to do everything they possibly can to complete the American revolution which was betrayed on July 5, 1776. I'm including all people in that, but I would like to emphasize that in my opinion, the major problem in this country is white racism, a system of white racism, the current commission told us this, we ought to be about the business in 1976 of dealing with white

racism in this country. Secondly, and I'm herring, this year is the year for us to deal seriously with our history. I have a problem with the whole concept of contributionism without a context. You know, it's all well and good to say that the cat made a pair of shoes and then you through with us for another 60 minutes or so. We must put that in context and understand what that man's experienced met in his times. And we must also come the grips with what Ma'am, what Ma'am to sell on that. Now, it just seems to me to be a simple thing to ask white people to do is to look at George Washington, to look at Thomas Jefferson. You are a black historian and in my estimation, one of the best, would you put the concept and the activities of blacks during America's revolutionary period into a context? Are we dealing basically with contributions which you've just dismissed,

or are we dealing basically with blacks being true to a principle of liberty and justice, which is higher than being black or white? Is that the context that you're referring to? Let me just change a word you said. I think we're dealing with a concept of liberty and justice and equality, which has been embodied in the black population since 1776. I think we're dealing with that. I'd like to, I'm not dismissing contributionism. Contributionism without a context. I would like to see it placed in context. I don't think it makes any difference at all to say the names of the dates. We've got to give it meaning. Briefly, some 5,000 blacks fought in the American Revolutionary War. But it's also interesting to note that even more blacks defected to the British during this period. Why did they defect to the British? Because of the pussied burden of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson. George Washington didn't want to accept blacks into the army. All they accepted them into the army after law had done most of it. Y'all come on and fight first.

I'm trying to capsule 200 years of history in a brief time and do not be through. The second point we need to deal with in the Revolutionary War period is the beginning of the institutionalization of black America, the founding in 1787, interesting date of the free African society by Absalom Jones and Richard Allen after they had to walk out of a white methodist church in Philadelphia in 1787. That's what we got to deal with. And just throwing names out will do no good. White people have got to deal with Montvernon, Monticello. We've got to deal with what the black experience means in this country over these 200 years. That will make this year significant. Well, one of the points said that he raised as related to the number of troops that participated in the war and the number that defected to the British. I think in all fairness at that time, blacks went for the highest deal or the best deal that was afforded them. And I think that that

perhaps, you mean they weren't interested in freedom? Well, they were interested in freedom number one and they were interested in the deal. Well, that's why they made a deal. That's right. So I think then they went, you know, the 20,000 that fought on the side of the British did so because they wanted freedom. And I think that that quest is still here today. But that's what the Patriots wanted. Yes. That's why they were fighting the English crown because they weren't in freedom, which was the principle, which is my point. I don't think that some of the premises were made on the part of the Americans as related to you fighting will give you your freedom. I think those premises came later on down the road when they saw the impact and the influences would have on blacks that were there at that time. I think that that quest for freedom is still alive today as it relates to total participation in the American system, participation in the economic system, as well as the political system. And I think that's very much alive today. Can I ask about President Brother Caloan? I don't want to put you on the spot. I'm very sensitive

to your position. This is the 200th year of freedom in America people say. You're very close to President United States. The President United States, he's doing some strange things in this year. He's cutting back on social programs and employment. Do you have any recommendations of what he ought to be doing in 1976? Well, I think the first thing he ought to be doing is listening. I think he, like all of the other people, need a better understanding of the black contribution and the black participation. Now, as it relates to the employment situation, the unemployment situation, the President in his state of the Union said that unemployment is a serious problem. And his approach is that we not come up with makeshift jobs that are going to, at the end of one year, disappear, and the brother is going to be right back where he was prior to this. We're talking about getting the economy back on its feet so that there is opportunity in the private sector and that the burden of carrying somebody for a year doesn't go on the burden of those I can afford at the least. Those who are paying taxes like you and you, brother Brown,

and others who are caught in the lower end of the economic structure in the country. They're having the fork over additional revenue. We're talking about putting more money back from the tax into the private sector so that we can get the country moving again. Now, as to recommendations that I would have for the President, I think that he has gone out and made some very strong statements. He has admitted and acknowledged our participation in the country. I think more so than any other President. He spoke to the National Baptist Convention in St. Louis and he set the record straight on a number of our contributions. He went to North Carolina Central College and he spoke to the Assembly but he also took questions from the students and at this time the question was raised as to whether or not Senator Brooke would make a good running mate and the President admitted that and I think since that time. I didn't know that. His response was made at the North Carolina

Center of the Students' Question, which is Black College. Exactly. Let me ask you a historical go ahead. Go ahead. Just one question there. We could argue economic theory all day. I'm in disagreement with the economic theory that it's expressed. That's another matter. The fact of the matter is that the very responsible urban league, since for example, administration figures on unemployment are for the birds that real unemployment in the Black communities, 20, 30, 40 percent, walked down on 25th Street, walked down South Watt Parkway, walked down Martin Luther King's Drive in Chicago. You will see the unemployment in Black. I mean, it's there that the pain is in the Black community. At the President, you know, seems to me to be unaware of it. He's very much aware of it and I'm not denying it. As a matter of fact, the urban league just received a grant I think had somewhere in the neighborhood of $14 million to deal with this problem. I agree that the accounting system, the method of dealing with unemployment statistics,

is very unfair as it relates to the inner city because the statistics they use incorporate a broad area. For example, Washington DC. Excuse me. I have to interrupt because we're very short on time. And I have one final question that I want to get in and I think it's very pertinent. It is a historical and a contemporary question. Although you feel that Black should not participate in a bicentennial, wouldn't you agree that the byproduct of Blacks being more interested in their history and more interested in their contributions? And I'm not, I don't mean it just in contributions. The relevance of what our contributions meant in terms of our commitment to freedom, liberty and justice. Don't you believe that that has at least been a byproduct on America's spotlighting? It's 200th birthday. Only if those contributions become meaningful within a context of struggle and freedom. That's what the history of Black people is about. That's what this bicentennial is supposed to be about. Just the name is used. In other words, if we use what we learned during

this bicentennial year about Black history. For struggle and movement to, if we're inspired and motivated by it, you would see a positive conclusion. If it ends up in struggle and freedom. All right. Thank you. I'd like to thank LaRome Bennett historian and senior editor at Ebony for being our guest. I'd like to thank John Calhoun, special assistant to the United States for being on Black Journal. Next week, we will return with our regular format with cohost Billy Taylor, special guest Linda Hopkins, star of the Broadway musical in a special salute to Bessie Smith's music and game show cohost Adam Wade and can you dig it? I have for American Game Quiz. And I'd like to say goodbye from the Black Journal family. God bless you. The preceding program was made possible by a grant from Pepsi Cola Company.