Erase the Hate; Special Forum 2001

You You Good evening, I'm Conroy Chino, and I'm your host

for a special Erase the Hate Forum. A forum addressing institutional racism was originally scheduled for this evening, but in the middle of planning, September 11th, as you know, brought the world to a halt, a date that has changed our lives forever. To address the tragedies of September 11th, we decided to focus our attention on the wave of hate crimes and racial profiling which have occurred since then. They have been aimed specifically at Arab Americans and Muslim Americans and Middle Eastern immigrants legitimately in this country and in this state. Since September 11th, across the country, Middle Eastern people or people who have a similar appearance have been murdered, others beaten, their property vandalized, and their places of worship desecrated. They have been the target of racial profiling at airports and have come under scrutiny at restaurants, businesses, and federal buildings. This forum aims to raise awareness and to promote tolerance and understanding.

Tonight, we want to focus on the Middle East, the people, the culture, and the religion in light of current events and issues. Although the Middle Eastern population is small in New Mexico, still, with this forum, we want to attempt to curtail the growing fear and prejudice, especially now when it is so crucial for us to look at our similarities rather than our differences. So, to begin the first half hour of our program, with me tonight, Ardeas Encousa, a representative of the Sikh religion, Jarrett Block, the director of the Refugee Resettlement Program, operated by Catholic Charities, and finally Abdul Raul Kumpel -Smarquetti, the General Secretary of the Islamic Center of New Mexico. Welcome, and thanks for being here this evening. I want to begin by asking Abdul Raul

with the Islamic Center what it's been like in the aftermath of the attacks of last month, the extensive media coverage, the constant playing and replaying of the attack and the collapse of the World Trade Center. The images of Osama bin Laden, the pictures of the terrorists being flashed on TV, and now the bombings in Afghanistan. What has it been like for you, your family, your friends, your associates, members of the mosque where you belong in the aftermath? Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. First of all, one of the things I want to do expresses is the feeling of our community. Our community is horrified, they're saddened. We do not have not condoned this in any way, shape or form. As American

citizens and residents in America, we feel that we feel, first of all, we want to give our condolences to the families of the individuals that have died in this incredible tragedy. And then, number one, to really clearly state that this incident is not in any way, shape or form, number one, condoned by Islam, the religion of Islam, and is not condoned by us as Muslims in America. You know, let me ask you this. Are you personally worried about your safety? I would say somewhat. I'm personally worried about the safety of my wife and my children. I'm a little bit, not so much worried for my safety as, sickened a little bit by some of the negative things that I've seen

around me, some of the looks that I've seen, people give me. And then also, I'm really saddened to see that other members of our community like Sikhs, and I'm going to say Christians, and I'll explain what I mean by that in a second, that they also are receiving some of this harsh treatment. Many people did not realize that here in our own community, in Albuquerque, that, first of all, the Muslim community is very diverse. It's composed of Arab descent, it's composed of people from Africa, from Malaysia, once in a while we get some people from Asia, from Afghanistan, Americans, so our community here is very diverse. The Arab community here is not just composed of Muslims, but many of the Arabs themselves are Christians. They're not Muslims at all, but they are Christians. There is a good segment of our community that's Iranian, and not all the Iranians are Muslims, some of the Iranians are Baha 'is, so the

community itself is very diversified, not only in race, but also in religion. But I do want to concentrate, at least in this first part of the program, on concerns that both of you might have when it comes to safety. Can you move about, are you concerned about, you mentioned to me earlier that you traveled recently to Phoenix. Were you, anyway, any way, shape or form concerned about your safety? I wasn't concerned about my safety, I think it's made me much more aware of what's happening around me, of safety issues, but it's energized us to help people to understand who we are, the diversity of religion that exists in this country, and for people to understand that that's a woven into the fabric of this country, and that it's important for them to understand that, and to celebrate that and accept that, so...

So you have to restrict your mobility, for example. We have not, we don't think worrying is going to help, but that being active and helping to educate, and helping to, and interacting in forms like this as much as possible, is what's needed, and what's going to make a positive out of this whole situation. But there have been instances of hate crimes against... They're very serious ones. Yes, of people of Middle Eastern descent, and against a Sikh gas station owner in Arizona, he was mistaken, because of his turbine, because of his beard. That's what's, for Sikhs, that's kind of the interesting thing that we're dealing with, is that many of the images that we've all seen on TV, of our, the attackers, enemies of peace and freedom, are men with turbans and beards.

And in the United States, primarily the only men with turbans and beards are Sikhs, so that identity is being assumed and mistaken, and there has been a lot of concern and a lot of attacks of Sikhs. We mentioned that one instance in Arizona, but there have been others, and I like to just quickly cover some of them, and then turn to you Jar, because I think you also mentioned to me earlier that you had several, you had information about several instances where incidents here in Albuquerque. For example, let me give you some examples of some of the racial, and the hate crimes that occurred across the country. After the revandals were smashed computers and presses and equipment in Alaska, this was equipment belonging to a prominent Arab American. In Chicago, there was a malt of cocktail that was thrown at an Arab educational school. In LA, police are investigating the shooting of an Arab American shopkeeper,

but there are instances here in Albuquerque that you are aware of. Yes, I've had on two occasions now since September 11th, had two individuals come to speak with me as the director of the Refugee Resettlement Program about encounters they had in one case which involved an apparent hate crime at a local bar where an Iraqi man was approached by some of the people in the bar and ended up getting arrested. The police had to call the police to separate this, and the person came to talk to me specifically because they were afraid they don't feel safe walking around. I think it's important what you said, Daya, that a lot of the reaction that I have seen in Albuquerque and with some of the families that I work with has been at a very visceral level, a very superficial

looking at taking somebody based on their dress or how they appear. That was one instance that I am aware of, another instance where somebody I know, another Iraqi gentleman, who came to me actually just today approaching me for some assistance, he believes that he's being harassed by an INS official as well as potentially by another law enforcement person. And some of the things he told me seemed that they were not, that they were out of the ordinary, that he had been interrogated in public or had been followed in public and then later interrogated. And some of these things that really strike you as well, that's happening in Albuquerque. Singled out because of this. Singled out. In the one case, certainly in the case of the assault definitely, in the other case, it's not clear exactly what went on, but the

individual certainly felt that he was being singled out because of this and that the reaction to him was clearly based on he's Iraqi and he had been targeted. But I think it's also, as far as that, interesting to look at what else is happening in the community. I think it's a matter of everyday life as well. It's not just the hate crimes and the assaults, but I think you mentioned how people perceive you when you walk into a store. What kind of treatment do you receive from your neighbor? The looks, the interactions, and I think that says a lot about our community too. And I've also heard that people are feeling individuals who may look Middle Eastern or who are Middle Eastern are feeling threatened or maybe unwelcome. And I think that that's been a general perception. The threats and the things have been unwelcomed. I was curious to find out from you, members

of your mosque. As a result of what's happened in the aftermath of all this, are they afraid to speak their native language? Are they afraid to wear their traditional dress? Are they even afraid to leave their homes? I think you will find individuals that have those feelings that feel like they can't speak their native language. I've noticed a decrease in the wearing of what I would call traditional Islamic clothing. Many of the Muslim sisters have expressed their concern about just going to the store and to go shopping. So there is a concern there amongst our community about that. But you've also gotten reassurances from the government. You mentioned to me recently that you met with federal authorities. Yes. There are two things that I think were very surprising for me. I'm an African -American and I was really

surprised as an African -American to get this response. Number one, the city, county, state, and federal government agencies came to our mosque, our place of worship, in unison. And very clearly stated that they are here to protect our rights as American citizens, to inform us about their policy on hate crimes and what to do in reaction to that if something was to happen. And to really tell us that they are there to support us if anything happens and they will prosecute very strictly under the law or anything that happens. The second that again was surprising for me was the reaction that we've gotten from our albacurki community. The support has been pretty amazing. The first worship that we had, the first Juma prayer that we had, we had five ministers show up from various churches throughout our community. They just showed up to provide their support, to say, we're

here to support you, we're here to support you as a fellow human beings and fellow worshipers of the creator. That happened the second week and our phone message machine is full of, one day I answered literally 22 messages of support from individuals from the albacurki community. So there is a clear negative aspect to what's happened because of this incident but also there's a very clear and to me very powerful support there from the community which quite frankly I really haven't seen that before. I would add to that the con right that we have had that experience as well and in the face of this tragedy and in the face of some of that hate and suspiciousness that we've also had an outpouring of volunteerism to our program of people

who want to assist some of the families that are fleeing these very same persecutions that are being espoused by the people that are carrying out these acts. So these families that are in albacurki that I work with so we've seen a lot of support on the other side as well. But do you agree that I would say that many of us don't know the differences between say an Afghan and a Pakistani or an Arab or Persian much less of differences in their language and in their culture. Or many of us don't know the difference between Islamic believers and those part of the Sikh faithful. Is that part of the problem? Is that part of the problem here in New Mexico and perhaps across the country and that there is a lack of understanding, a lack of knowledge about the Middle East, its culture and the religion and the languages that exist there? Well I think understanding and knowledge is the key to

avoiding the problem and it is the problem and we understand that this country has been through something that has never been through before. There are people who are really shocked by it and that reactions are going to happen from that and that a lot of people don't really understand how diverse it is and how many ways people worship God in this country and that that's really what's so great about America. But understanding and education is really the key for people to be comfortable with the diversity that's around them and to be able to relate to each other as Americans who are really doing what is uniquely great and uniquely easy to do here which is practice whatever faith you choose in the way you choose to practice it. Hate crimes are

based on ignorance and one component of ignorance is lack of knowledge or lack of information. You know I've been a Muslim in this country for 20 years and for the first time in my experience as a Muslim the President of the United States President Bush got on national television and said to the American people and to the world that guess what Islam isn't this terrorist thing? That we've been really actually saying that it is it's a world religion and it's linked to our religion which is the Christian religion and it's linked also to the Jewish religion. So to me that I have seen an incredible reaction to that statement that the President made and that people are now confused they really are confused because they really thought Islam was this terrorist religion. And two that people want to seek knowledge about it they really we have seen in our

community a movement towards people really wanting to find out what is this thing that's called Islam since it's not this thing that it was told us to be. And a lot of that is linked to you know I think our current policy towards Israel and Palestine I believe that the media our policy quite frankly say our policy has been one sided the media has presented the Muslim the Arab in this one particular face with this one particular face and in reality Islam has a face of the world. And Arabs are only 15 % of the population of Muslims in the world the rest of the 1 .2 million people are from all over the world Asia Africa America Canada England France all the countries in the world so it's really I think for the American people almost a wake up call

in a way. And those individuals that that act on hate just like the individuals that have committed this crime against the people in the World Trade Center and the Pentagon are acting on ignorance and are not acting on the true nature of our religion Islam and are not acting on the true nature of the past that the creator has put us on. Conrad I was after the Sikh man in the phoenix area was killed I went down to phoenix the following week and helped to put together a memorial service that the city sponsored and what was really remarkable to see there was that. The community of phoenix of all just was devastated that that had happened in their community it is and they wanted the world to know that is not who they are that's not what their community is but they also were

really awakened to the fact that there were Sikhs in their community that there were people practicing a another beautiful religion who they had maybe seen but didn't know anything about. And that was the mission that the that his the family of the man who was killed took on to find something positive from what had happened was to share who they were with people and to try to use that so that no innocent people would ever be targeted like that again and the whole community came together around that event and around really a celebration of of a discovering of the Sikh religion and what it was. And that was that's what this can lead to if people get together and look at it that way. Can you point out for us some of the a couple major differences between the Sikh religion and the Islamic religion? Well at its core there are no

differences. You have religions that believe in in the unity of mankind and in and that God is in all of us and so the differences are really many paths to the same God and to the same ending. There are of course differences in practice and differences in appearance but they're not significant differences they're not important. But you know certainly there are very very clear differences between Sikhs and the people who committed attacks on the United States and between Muslims and those people also. And unfortunately that's people across the country and perhaps here in New Mexico have lumped everybody together which is again I think part of the problem. And again out of that is this perception that Muslims are this angry

primitive, fanatical set of people when it's not. I mean it's just this extremist element that's getting all the attention that's getting the focus of the national news organizations. I was curious to find out from the three of you with regards to the television coverage and the constant playing and replaying of the attack and the collapse of the World Trade Center and the images that have been flashed on TV. What that does or what that does to the general public but one important what that does to children and their perception, their image of Arabs, of Muslims, of Sikhs. I'm thinking about another aspect of that Conrad too that not just the children but families, Muslim families or Arab American families or Sikh families.

But speaking specifically from some of the families that I've been working with from Afghanistan, from the Middle East and this sense of having all eyes looking at you as you are the perpetrator and seeing these images you're talking about playing over and over. And I had this one gentleman make the comment to me and everybody's looking at me like I'm the one. And kind of so not only that of course everyone is horrified at what has happened but some of these families are replaying this over and over because they're seeing it every day on the TV and they're getting interactions with people telling them that they are terrorists or that they are. And some of these same families that I mentioned may have just left an oppressive regime in their own country, the specific families that I work with. And so it's kind of this constant traumatization. And so I do see that and

when they see these images continually replayed and as you said the face is shot up on the TV screen and I would say there's been a lot of internalization of some of this anger and hostility. So as far as the children, the young students what I see is things do get very black and white at that point. I think one of the best things that is going on and that we can do is to bring that education into schools be it ourselves if you're representing that community to share your own experience or as an educator to talk about the faces around us. And the differences because I think it does get broken down very black and white at that age level. You mentioned quite in the schools, is there anything else that is a seek community for example going about and trying to educate informed people, raise people's consciousness about this? We are as much as we possibly can. So we

are taking every opportunity to meet with people, to talk to the press if they're interested, to go out and give people the chance to understand who we are, to meet us as people. I think really children have a great ability to see people as people and people for who they are, maybe as adults we do more labeling than children do. So if you can talk to children and let them see you as a person and understand what you believe and what you think is great about your way of life, I think they understand that. When the Albuquerque Journal had a full page top to bottom, portrait of Bin Laden in a turbine and traditional dress, that's a lot of, after days and days of that,

that's a lot of creating an image that can make it difficult for anybody who resembles that image. So we're just trying to go out and break down that image into real people and the freedoms in this country that need to be protected and in that sense it's been an opportunity. There are probably more people have heard more about Islam and about Sikhism in the last four weeks than in the previous hundred years. And if that, if something like this, we've heard so much on television about the tremendous response that Americans have had to this tragedy, how it's brought cities together, brought people together. And if it can also bring people together to understand other religions and to understand who the people they live with are, that's the bright side of a really dark situation. You mentioned that you had been to Washington DC, met with the president who also reiterated some of the same things

that you're expressing. I mean, the president, almost from day one, stepped out, I think very courageously, within a few days of the attack, he was at the Islamic Center in Washington DC. If you heard any of that speech, he made that day. It was a beautiful, beautiful speech about religious freedom, about the America that he believes in, and about what is not part of that America, which is any kind of violence or profiling of innocent people. And he's been consistent on that all along. He invited a group of Sikhs to the White House, I was part of, and a couple of hours after that, Islamic leaders were in the White House, he's giving the message loud and clear. We'll make that the last comment. We'll be right back after the short message. Thank you very much.

You are watching a special Erase the Hate Forum as part of the YWCA's Week Without Violence. I'm Conor Chino. And continuing our program, I am joined by panel of experts who are discussing ways to halt the growing anti -Muslim anti -Arab sentiment in this country as a result of the September 11th attacks on the United States. Joining me this evening is Father Robert Keller of the Aquinas Newman Center at the University of New Mexico, Susan Seligman, the Regional Director of New Mexico's Anti -Defamation League, Selim Zameer, the President of the UNM's Muslim Student Association, and Dr. Michael

Hallefield, a psychiatrist who works with refugees from the Middle East as part of the Catholic Charities Resettlement Program. Thank you for joining me. I want to start by saying that in a perfect world, there would be no racism, no prejudice, no violence, but as we all know, we don't live in a perfect world. What is the reality out there? What have you heard since the attacks last month in New York and the Pentagon? What is the reality out there for people of Middle Eastern descent in the aftermath? Well, I think people don't. It's an awareness that people have gotten as a result of that. They're starting to see that there are Muslims in this country, there are six to seven million Muslims in this country, and that they aren't all part of what is going on

or related to or accept what has happened the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. But there is a perception out there, I think, by many who lack understanding, lack knowledge that easily categorize all Arabs as possibly being terrorists. Right, and that's the thing, the school systems, I mean, I grew up in this city and I grew up in this state, and the reality is we don't know about a lot of people. We learn about things in school, but there really is a lack of understanding, and there is an ignorance of people not just towards Muslims or Arab Americans, but of other groups of Native Americans and other groups that are in this country and the Sikhs as well. You grew up in this community, have you noticed any kind of backlash as a result of what's happened? No, actually we've been quite blessed that people have been quite understanding. We've had a lot of support at the university and in this city and in the state as a whole. I think just to add

on to what Salim was saying at the Quinis Newman Center, which is a Catholic center at the university, one of the issues that came to us was the fact that we were so ignorant, either about the religion that we're talking about Islam in some ways, whether or not it's involved. And so we took an initiative to try to find out about that and with the help of the Muslim Student Association, we've had actually a forum to explain Islam to these Catholics who needed, and we're going to be having a second forum, so actually at the university community, we've realized the deficiency that we have and are trying to redress that. Let me add on, Conroy, all in all, and in all species, ignorance promotes fear. You don't know what's going on, you're afraid. And fear promotes hate and intolerance and violence. Hate is a mental behavior, intolerance is a, and violence is a physical behavior. And

then that in turn promotes more fear, because you don't know what's going on. And I think these initiatives that are being taken in our community are essential initiatives to cut into that cycle of not knowing what's going on and being afraid, having the behaviors of hate, intolerance, and violence, and then being more afraid. And I think it's great. You know, one of the issues that came up two night before the attack was the issue of racial profiling, particularly at security checkpoints at airports. Maybe for those that aren't familiar with racial profiling, it's this practice by police in some cities of singling out. I think years ago, and it may be still currently going on of singling out black male drivers. Based on some morally offensive assumption that they had committed crimes based on statistics. But let me ask you this. Let me ask

this group of panelists. Can racial profiling ever be justified in the interest of national security? I guess I could start by saying, you know, in medicine sometimes, race is an issue, for example, with certain illnesses. And there are certainly times when certain aspects of a person's characteristics are part of what is happening to them and who they are. But in this case, with terror and violence, really that cuts across all races and cuts across all peoples. And it really is just inappropriate to use that as one measure of trying to predict who is going to be violent. There are better predictors of who's going to be violent and angry than race. So I think it's certainly not appropriate in this situation. There are a ton more people who are peaceful and are reaching out in the Muslim and Arab communities here than certainly have ever been violent. So it just isn't a good predictor and it's inappropriate. So

it's part of what I'm hearing you say something to the fact that it's not a race, it's not a very good indicator that there's actually a variety of other indicators that would produce a composite that would say, well, this person is more threatening or something. I think that's right and that's what we need to look more at is what is the profile and we've heard earlier and in private discussions before that the FBI is looking at things like that. What are the real characteristics that are part of someone who's a terrorist? And it's not race and color. It sounds like something for other venues of this profiling issue as well then. One of the things that the FBI did this past week is to meet with leaders of different communities to assure them what they were looking at. Looking for and looking at and to be able to work with people and I think law enforcement is very sensitive to these issues and are trying the best that they can to work within the communities. Just to add a note, it sounds like religious profiling could have been an issue at stake here and that's I think what, again, the energy behind looking at Islam

for many of us the first time because we didn't know is this a religion that has peace as a foundation or not, which we're finding it does. That's one of the things that I know Muslims here in Albuquerque and I know across the country have been attempting to do is to go out into the community and to tell people we are Muslims if you have questions about what Islam is about or who Muslims are coming to ask us. I know a lot of us have been to schools, we've been to churches, we've been on the radio, we've been interviewed for newspapers and it's basically just to raise their awareness about who the Muslims are and gives people an opportunity to distinguish between what they see on the television screen and what is actually reality of people who might be your next door neighbor. I know that all of us have heard a lot on newspaper about all the fear and the concerns that communities have but I've seen a wonderful outpouring of support and I think we've seen that on this TV program

today that America has come to its best in this issue and they're always those people who are the worst and they get a lot of news coverage because of that but I think we've all seen the best coming out of Americans towards each other and it's been really wonderful. But as you say people are afraid, people are jumpy, people are on edge. But there's a positive side to it too and I think that's been the really great thing here. But in terms of racial profiling a lot of people do travel, a lot of people do travel by airplane. Let me ask you this, should airports be singling out Arabs or Arab looking men at security checkpoints in order to avoid a possible another September 11th? According to the FBI what they're looking at is not profiles of people racially but age and if you have purchased a one way ticket the day before and there's a lot of other aspects they're looking at at airports. I was just in the Chicago airport the other

day and I sure was singled out as much as anyone else and I think it's very difficult for any of us to look and say this person's middle eastern because there are so many immigrants in this country. We know and really has a clue of who's what just by looking at them and I think there's going to be a broader issue of immigrants in this country who are as uncomfortable as anyone else just because they happen to speak with an accent or perhaps with a color of their skin. I think this goes to the issue that there are other factors that are probably better predicting who's a terrorist. We certainly know in all religions and all races there are fringes of groups that have the potential of being terrorist and have the potential of being violent and those are the variables that really need to be looked at to find people like that to find what's happening and who to really look at. Having said that I want to add it's human nature. We're all conditioned by things we see by things that come to our senses.

So unfortunately it is human nature to be when we see on TV that all the terrorists were of a certain ilk. It is human nature and people shouldn't feel guilty about having a little bit of a reaction maybe to someone who's middle eastern who they for whatever reason feel suspicious. But it's what they do about that that's important. They shouldn't act on that in a violent way. They shouldn't act on that in a way that is prejudicial. They should hold their judgment until they really learn what's going on by learning about the person. You mentioned earlier that the actions that occurred last month were the actions of a religious group of extremists, who had a certain set of religious beliefs, wanted to ask you a father -bop. And speaking to you earlier you mentioned that justifying such extreme measures using religion to make a political statement was something that as someone who has, obviously religion as a basis for what you

do. That particular aspect was something that you considered to look at long and hard. In terms of the actions that had happened with the use of that force and we would see, I think the interpretation that I've had is it's a desperate action, I mean clearly a most desperate action. And so it's almost outside of the realm of just a religious motivation. And that begs the question I think for us in terms of people of faith and I guess Americans in some ways myself, is there's an initial short answer to the problem that's being discussed in terms of withholding or terminating further violence by these terrorists. But the longer answer is also asking why would people be desperate. And I think in our own tradition we would be looking at is there's some kind of justice, meat it out, internationally or not. And even though that may not be able to perfectly answer, because you said as truth to these,

anyone else, we don't live in a perfect world that it could answer all the problems of the world. But maybe there's a disparity in some kinds of justice issues that we are not looking at. That can also be at least fueling extremisms. So those are questions that are yet to be asked or answered. What should we be looking at then? In terms of faith tradition, I think the first thing that we've been looking at since this event has happened is what do we stand on? In my case I'll say Catholics, and we're looking at the gospel ethic of Christ, which would be peace. And also to see that we as an international community, at least Catholics, we need to recognize that our brothers and sisters are in the countries that we may be looking at as a nation to attack. So it puts us in a different framework of looking at what kinds of steps should a country be taking like our own against a nation and saying, is there peaceable ways to what degree to answer the issue?

And the short term issue would end up be like, how do you defend yourself and not participate in violence? So I think steps like, you know, what we're doing when we go through the airport security and things like that. Those are, of course, we have to use that. But we may be asking to what extent is military action warranted and what is it doing? Those are just questions we need to kind of ask ourselves as believers. And the longer -term question, again, is what I'm going back to. I don't want to ramble. But the longer -term question is, are there injustices somewhere? I mean, in the Middle East we have to look at it as believers, but as Americans, and how is our foreign policy? And that takes expertise. But it's worthy to ask those questions about justice and the dignity of all people. So if I may add, it's certainly clear that Al Qaeda and their network have demonstrated their fear because of injustice and their fear of powerlessness, which begin promotes violence, hate. And we've seen that happen towards us. And I think that's

right. I think we need to ask those questions about feelings of fear and injustice, which is what they have acted on, essentially. How do people deal with, well, we've all been impacted, affected by what's happened. As a psychiatrist, what suggestions do you have for people who may continue to have this fear? Essentially, one needs to separate their sadness and their fear from them what they do. It's normal to feel sad, and we would say it would be odd not to, to feel afraid, to worry about what's going to happen. But it doesn't do anybody good not to go about your life. And I think, again, the President and the government stepped right out there and said, go about your life. And that's right, because if you feel guilty about what's happened and you don't do anything, well, the thing that's happened is still happened. So the thing to do is really to be with the people that you know and love, and the people that can

give you meaning in your life, and go about your life to the best you can, and also feel fear, feel sadness, and recognize it's there. But they're really separate issues, and they shouldn't be connected. But certainly there is this new face of terror that has been constantly flashed on TV over and over again with the repeated showing of, obviously, Osama bin Laden and others who committed this horrendous act. What do you suggest? I would say that people take a break from that. I would say that they turn their TVs off, and they talk to their family, and they hug who they hug, and they go and do what they do. And they use some cognition and some reason, say, you know, the world's probably not real anymore dangerous and it was before this. It's just been put in my face now. And flying is probably not really any more dangerous, and it was prior. In fact, it may be a little less dangerous right now than it was prior. And to use that reason to go about their life, and again, also recognize the fear and deal with it in their communities. As a news media,

it made it better or worse. It's reasonable. That's right. A thought that's coming from this too is a sense of a localization that if it's globalized this fear that it's all of a sudden it's around us everywhere. And that's part of the problem with looking at someone nearby and assuming something when it may be much more localized and it may be localized away from us. But be that as it may, if you extrapolate it into an ambiguous image, and that's part of the, we're talking about the image issue, then we seem to put it on our doorstep everywhere. In the case of it, as a matter of fact, it isn't necessarily quite at our doorstep. Attentiveness, I think, being attentive is important, but that's good living too. But how do you do with the fallout, Selim? Obviously, the images, many of them negative, being buried in the conscious minds of a lot of people.

For example, what is your organization, the Muslim student organization that you and I'm done to try and curb or curtail people's fears? Well, like I said before, we've been trying to go out to the community. We've been trying to talk to people, talking to kids, because kids have a lot of times, they have a hard time distinguishing what they see on TV from reality. And I know for a personal example, just going to an elementary school meeting with little kids, they actually see somebody and they say, oh, you are Muslim. Rather than seeing somebody on TV like Osama bin Laden and sort of, like you said, having that image in your mind, like all Muslims are what this guy looks like, rather than looking at your next door neighbor or somebody who lives across the street, that is a Muslim. And I know for the Muslims, too, it's been a sort of looking upon ourselves as to why this has happened and sort of to go back and look at ourselves and see, have we been good Muslims? And sort of work on ourselves and becoming better people

and interacting with people in a kinder fashion. Now, a lot of attention has been drawn, obviously, to Arabs, to people of Middle Eastern descent. But I was curious to find out from you, Susan, whether or not there has been an increase in anti -Semitism as a result of all this. There definitely has been, and I think there's a real apprehension within the Jewish community that there is a perception out there that this whole thing is because of our Middle East policy and Israel. And I think it's a, we see news reports of people blaming Israel for the attack on the World Trade Center. There's a lot of disinformation out there, which I think spreads a lot of fear in the Jewish community as well. And what's your organization doing about that, Mary? How do you begin to quiet the fear? Well, I guess our organization fights prejudice and discrimination for all people. So as soon as this happened, the first thing we were talking about was discrimination

against Arab Americans. And to get people involved with understanding other people, we have a program called World of Difference, which is an anti -bias diversity program that is in schools and communities. In the workplace throughout the country. And we have offered to give free trainings. All our trainers are donating their services. So I think for me, as far as the anti -defamation league goes, our, we have a real broad base of looking at a variety of different issues across America. And, you know, working with law enforcement, doing programming within the Jewish community and within the Arab community, I think it's, it's really important throughout the country. I'm sure that by the time this program airs, much of what happened, as we speak now, they are bombing on a 24 hour basis Afghanistan. Certainly in the past few weeks,

we've, you know, had a number of terms, cities, places presented to us. I, for one, had never heard of the Taliban or had heard very little of the Taliban prior to September 11th. But I was curious, so you mentioned to me earlier that you had some, you're from your families from Afghanistan. And the Taliban you're telling me had seized control there now in control of the government in Afghanistan. Can you add a little bit more to that? Well, I think the issue with Afghanistan is you have to look at history and see what's happened there. The Russians were there. They entered Afghanistan in 1979. And for 10 long years, you know, there was a bitter struggle there. And the reality of it is that there were between one and two million Afghans that died. And after that, there was a lot of civil war. And the country just basically had been bombed to the ground. And the Taliban has,

they saw that as a good opportunity to step in and say, hey, we're in here. We're a military government. They don't represent a majority of the people of Afghanistan. But it's been, it's an opportunity for them to gain power in a place where there's no laws, no rules. And what they say, whoever has the biggest gun, their word goes. We only have a few more minutes and this time has gone by quickly. But I want to go through and have each one of you tell me, because this, one of the issues obviously is erasing the hate and attempt by this program to do that. Tell me, Dr. Halafid, I'll start with you. How do you begin to teach tolerance in light of all that has happened? Well, I think you've heard it today a little bit. I think the best way is to know each other and to be informed about each other. It's been very

clear in many of these such episodes in history that people can act violent when you really stay anonymous. Dr. Dorzeger did research with refugees in torture. That happens in the face of staying anonymous to a group as Hitler did with Jews as other groups have done with other groups in history. And so I think one of the ways is education is getting together like we're doing and learning more about each other and having people learn about each other. The world's a big place and it's hard to do that. But that's I think the important step. Susan? Education clearly is the most important step getting to know each other, having programs like this, getting programs, anti -biased diversity training in schools. I think that that's real key and parents talking to their kids in a good manner. Where do kids learn prejudice? They learn from their parents. And I think we have to look at the messages we're giving our children always because we really hold the key to the next generation.

Well I think speak for the Muslims and also for other religious communities is really getting back to the basics of what they believe in. As Muslims we fear God and we feel like any of our actions that we do will be cut, we're accountable for those things. And so if we feel like we're accountable for what we do then we'll be careful about what we do. I will reiterate something that Saleem is saying and that's in terms of our religious traditions to really see it. The first thing I think of is oftentimes the congregation that gathers at Aquinas Newman need just to look around because we have varieties of ethnic groups, varieties of different lifestyles and such present and to reverence that and then to take hold of the dignity of every human person. Well thank you very much all of you for joining me. Appreciate your comments and your input. Thank you so much. For more information about Middle Eastern cultures and religions please contact the Islamic Center of New Mexico at 505

-262 -1448 and the New Mexico Holocaust and Intelligence Museum and Study Center at 505 -247 -0606. For more information about eliminating violence, racism and hate crimes please contact the APS Violence Prevention Program at 505 -342 -7274 the New Mexico Anti -Defamation League at www .adl .org and the Southern Poverty Law Center at www .tolerance .org. Now if you or someone you know experiences discrimination, prejudice or a hate crime contact your city's Human Rights Office or call the American Civil Liberties Union at 1877 -06 Profile and we'll flash those up again for you toward the end of the show. I want to thank you for watching this evening and I'd like to leave you with one last

thought. If we recognize that each one of us has a spark of life and that this spark has the same value and the same inherent worth in New Mexico as it does in the Middle East or anywhere else in the world, we will be more likely to appreciate our similarities rather than focusing on our differences. So the next time you look at a stranger, think about this spark of life before thinking about the color of their skin, their dress or the inflection in their voice. We hope that we've left you with a better appreciation for diversity and hopefully more inspired to erase the hate, the prejudice and the racism that keeps us divided. We hope for change, we hope for racial tolerance and racial harmony. Thank you and good night. Production of the Erase the

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