Kansas Governor: The Race Is on!

Kansas governor races on with your host Nick. Good evening. Welcome to Casey Petey's live debate featuring the 1998 primary candidates in the running for Kansas governor. I'm Nick Haynes your host for tonight's program. Joining me in the studio to question the candidates are three area journalists Steve Klasky from the Kansas City Star Christic was from television station Casey TV5 and Matthew Hulver from Javier's Capital Report in Topeka. This broadcast is being distributed to public television and radio stations throughout Kansas as a co-operative project of the Kansas Public Broadcasting council member stations. The season's primary makes history as Republican candidates incumbent Kansas governor Bill Graves and his opponent's challenger David Miller. Draw the lines between conservative and moderate party factions. We begin with a brief opening statement from each candidate. The order was determined by a coin toss

before the program. Based on that outcome we begin with David Miller. Mr. MILLER. Well I want to thank channel 19 and the viewers for tuning in and for those who are listening to this broadcast I welcome the opportunity to debate issues because I think issues are important in politics and I think they're what most people care about. I think it's become clear in this campaign that I represent the traditional Republican point of view. And I think several issues have illustrated that clearly. For example I have suggested that in Kansas it's appropriate to have an official language English. The governor has termed that races. I believe that we should have school choice so that parents make decisions about their children's education. The governor is simply the choice of the very liberal labor union AFL NEA. And I also believe that union members should have the right to determine whether or not their dues are used for political purposes. The governor is simply the choice of the

liberal AFL-CIO. I've proposed a tax plan that's good for all Kansas families. The governor's tax plan seems to be best for Detroit. And this campaign I have taken firm positions. I clearly defend the right of the unborn. The governor seems to be unable to determine where he stands. I have been supported in this campaign by Dr. James Dobson and in the past. Bill Graves has been supported by Dr. George Tiller. I represent the traditional Republican point of view and that's why I want to be the Republican nominee for governor. His opening remarks please. Nick thank you very much and certainly I too think all the viewers who have taken time out tonight to become better educated about this very critical election. It's been a great honor for me to be able to serve the people of Kansas for the last 12 years two terms as the Kansas secretary of state and for the last four years as the governor of Kansas and I believe we have achieved a great deal. We have a great a lot more that we can accomplish as we move into the

21st century. We've been successful in enacting historic tack tax cuts for Kansans for consecutive years we've reduced the tax burden for the citizens of this state as we move forward. We've successfully reduced the size of the state workforce by about 3000 workers which we since we took office four years ago. We've had remarkable success in creating jobs. We have the lowest unemployment rate in Kansas in probably the last 25 years. That's led to a dramatic reduction or our welfare rolls 55 percent reduction which is good for you as a taxpayer but it's also good for individuals who are seeking to understand personal responsibility and holding a job. We believe that we've been on the right track for Kansas and have been good for this state and we're looking forward and encouraging your vote on August 4th. Thank you gentlemen. It is time now to move on to our round of questions. Candidates will be given rebuttal time if they choose. Steve Klasky from the Kansas City Star will have the opening question Steve. Thanks Governor I want to begin tonight with a question about this very central to this race. Will there be a tax increase during your next administration if you were elected governor again

on Tuesday. You've said that before you answer that question you want to wait until a committee you appointed decides how big of a highway program Kansas needs in its future given that would you be willing to raise taxes if that committee comes back and says there are a lot of needs out there and there might be a need for a tax increase. Well Steve you know how the system works. The governor only signs or vetoes legislation. I have a group of citizens who are out doing a needs assessment for this state. And I don't know what they will come back with. I know that I've heard about Highway 169 at 59 and 54 and 81 and the list is relatively endless. But we also didn't know up until recently that the federal government was going to be generous enough to provide us with an additional almost 100 plus million dollars per year over the course of six years that dramatically alters the what we do in terms of priorities relative to highways. And I must tell you the bond and indebtedness on the current program comes off in about the year 2009. So I do not think it is a given that what the legislature will

pass coupled with what resources are potentially available from the federal government and from state resources and the potential to perhaps through some creative financing take advantage of that revenue stream through bond indebtedness that is a given you must have a tax increase. What would you be willing to increase taxes if the need was there. Steve I've committed that I will do my job. I. I am reluctant to say that I would support a tax increase because we have been so successful at reducing taxes weve taken as you know substantial amount of money off the table over the last four years and I believe its the direction Kansans want to go. I'm willing to engage with the Kansas legislature in the discussion about our priority needs in the area of transportation. It is certainly my goal to create a package that does not require a tax increase. It is certainly my preference again speculative as to whether or not I would support a tax increase. Mr. Miller what do you think about what youve been hearing. Well you know I don't I don't know what kind of a car Bill Graves drives but when it comes to addressing this highway issue it ought to be called a dodge.

I've been listening during the course of this campaign to the discussion about this issue and I think it should be very clear and simple for a governor's candidate to say I will or I will not support tax increases. We're live in an estate and we're living in a time where it's not unusual for a family to have 40 percent of its income go to taxes. That's more than they spend on food clothing and shelter combined. I've produced a highway program. That has no new debt and no tax increases. I know that that's the kind of government that Kansans want. And I think it's reasonable for people to expect somebody who wants to be governor to answer straight up. Or support a tax increase or I won't support a tax increase. I've taken a pledge that I will not support a tax increase. And I think that that philosophy should be important to a Kansas Republican governor. Mr. Holt are you looking perplexed there from the media panel. Yes. Mr. MILLER Have you essentially said you know there's X

amount of dollars to take care of highway needs and transportation needs in Kansas regardless of what those needs are of you so limited yourself that you may not actually be able to meet the needs of Kansans for transportation infrastructure. Yeah. Yes. Mr. Millet. All right. You know I think that question really goes to the core of the different philosophies between David Miller and Belgrade's. My philosophy says that what's really important is what we're doing to Kansas families how much money we're taking out of their pocket. My first priority is not to build the government. My first priority is to not be sure that more money comes into the government. My priority is to be sure that there's money in the family's pocket. Government must learn to live within its means. And I learned from 10 years in the legislature that there are always pressures from more spending more money more programs more everything. And I reached the

conclusion that the best thing to do is to put limits on what government can take. Put limits on what government can do. Otherwise it just grows and grows and grows. That's why in this state in our state general fund in the last 12 years. We've had a 145 percent increase in spending. It turns out to be about 12 percent per year on average. I think that's outrageous and I've reached the conclusion that the best thing to do and the way a governor needs to lead is to say we go this far and no farther. And we have to learn to live with what we have before we move on to new ground. I do want to give an opportunity to Mr. Graves to rebut any remarks that he has heard from you. Mr. MILLER. Nick I just find it hard to believe that David has a handle on what the needs of the state of Kansas or realty infrastructure investment I believe we ought to let Kansans have their say they need an opportunity to tell us what the community special interest groups we have to think about public safety as we move forward. I'm willing to let them do that. It is a fact that this administration has the lowest rate of growth in state spending in the

last 40 years. Some of the growth in our state spending is because of property tax relief using general fund monies to buy down the property taxes of Kansans. David continually fails to acknowledge that that's a very positive aspect of what we've done. And we still have the lowest rate of growth in the last 40 years. We're got to move on to new territory here Crista clause of Casey TV5 with the next question would you directed to Bill grave's please. Governor grade's you've heard a lot of rhetoric in this campaign about traditional Kansas values. Define for us please. Traditional Kansas values in your mind. Well in my mind. My lifetime tradition is traditional Kansas value lifestyle. I was privileged to grow up in a in a very fine working family where I learned responsibility a work ethic from my father and from my mother I had an opportunity to attend very fine public education schools in our state where. I also learned from educators and from administrators and from coaches that I had in my

lifestyle. I think traditional values are. When you look to your family for support during times of need when you look at your church for support during times of need and I believe that we would all be better served in this state if if everyone was fortunate enough to have that kind of an environment. Unfortunately they do not. And we've worked very hard as the state government to try to create at least economic opportunities for people to have some sense of self responsibility to get off the cyclical nature of welfare and to to re-establish themselves firmly their feet on the ground. But for me traditional family values is a reflection of my life growing up. Mr. Miller what is traditional Kansas values mean to you. I think if you would have gone out and taken a survey 30 years ago of what most people believed you'd have a pretty strong consensus. People thought it was important to. Have respect for a family that people would say that their values are based on the Ten

Commandments that our values are based on our traditional Judeo-Christian culture. In too many instances. Now we have turned our back as a society. I think on a lot of those values and we're paying a real severe price for it. The governor said several times that he thinks it's important to lead by example. And I must tell you that an example came to me from a state employee just this past week. A state employee told me that he attended a training session. That was put on by a contractor for state government. And this contractor provides for health fringe benefits for state employees. What really irritated him and upset him. Was that when it got around to defining family this contractor said very specifically that family meant anybody in the household. And then went on to say that that would include a same sex couple and specifically said that would mean two mommies or two daddies. You know I don't think that's traditional Kansas family

values. That bothers me a great deal. And I think it also bothered this state employee and it would bother a lot of state employees to know that their precious state fringe benefit dollars are being expended on that kind of benefit. Martin Harvey chomping at the bit that you know what do you think that bothered the state employee. Well yeah you have it. Oh that I'll be happy to share or be happy to address that. Let's make it brief so we can get into new territory. But if you can ex-MIL I think I think that that is a lifestyle that a lot of people find to be frankly immoral. And we know that in Kansas it is illegal and it is for state government to go ahead and use precious fringe benefit dollars in order to extend benefits to people who are engaged in same sex relationships. I think that just violates the morals of all kinds of candidates. And I don't think most Kansans support that and I don't think most Kansans would want to see their tax dollars or employees see their fringe benefit dollars expended in that manner. Does that have anything to do with. The employees work.

What. One's lifestyle. Does that have anything to do with his performance or her performance on the job. What we're talking about is sending a message. You know state government sends a message that's why these things are so important because of the messages we send to children. That is not a morally acceptable lifestyle. And when we send a message by expending resources to say that it is a morally acceptable lifestyle then we send the wrong message. And I think it's important that those of us who serve in government be willing to stand for the right things. And I don't think that standing for the right things. I think that sending a message that we reinforce the wrong things. And I think that's wrong. Before we move onto another question Mr. Graves do you have anything to say on that. Just that that's fine you don't have to. Martin hold your special question. You could direct please to David Millot. OK you're in the insurance industry for a living. The state took a fairly historic step this year in the legislature.

Governor Gray signed into law a bill that. Would deny. In virtually every instance coverage for abortion services to people who are covered by the state's Health Insurance Program. Is that a good way for the state to go with with its. Employees that have state health insurance or is it something that should be moved into general health insurance for all candidates. A restriction on. Insurers indemnifying people for. Abortion or abortion related services. I know something about that bill because I actually made the suggestion as the person who offered it that the bill should be offered. It's a common practice in Kansas that insurance companies generally do not cover elective abortion in their policies. I think that's a good policy. I think a lot of people don't like the idea they're paying premiums or having their employer paying premiums or having their

state tax dollar premiums go to finance human abortion. So I don't have any particular disagreement with that policy Martin. Mr. Graves would you like to share a perspective on that issue. Well I would only say that that I think that that citizens should be free to choose to make a a payment in there in the purchase of private health insurance for the kind of coverage that they want and as a rider or an add on to an insurance policy. I think that's certainly their prerogative. Steve Klasky governor through your four years in office you called her editorial board a few weeks ago that your position and your thinking on the issue of abortion had had changed revolve. He talked about that tonight what would change in your thinking in the last four years. Well Steve I think you know anytime a number of factors play into that obviously governing is not a status quo static kind of situation. You know your life evolves your state evolves. The issues of all over the course of four years and you take them on as they come in as I said that day very candidly I'm also now the

father of an adopted child and I'm blessed with Katie because someone made the right choice. I think that a number of the things that have occurred in Topeka have been positive contentious. Yes but for the most part the fact that we were able to do that the Banta-Cain view that the provision that was just discussed the woman's right to know and yes even the most recent bill I still think when we legally sort out all the ramifications of that bill the legislature will be back and take some corrective action. But I think all in all it's been a vast improvements and simply a vast improvement over where we were when I first walked through the door. Mr. Miller we'd be delighted to hear your take on that. I'd be very hard pressed to say that we have a vast improvement in new abortion bill was signed but when the governor signed it he made a strong point of saying this abortion bill has an exception for mental health. Those of us who've been around this issue for a while know that a mental health exception simply means no limit or as some people say abortion on demand. The

provision of the law that is most troubling right now is the so-called partial birth abortion ban. This bill was supposed to ban partial birth abortions in Kansas. The governor strongly wanted the language that he got in that bill. The real problem is that until this bill was signed we had no partial birth abortions in Kansas. And now that we have this new bill signed with a mental health exception. We are actually having partial birth abortions performed in Kansas. I think that's outrageous. I think that it is terrible when people come up to me and they say Well Kansas is known for three things aviation agriculture and abortion. That's awful. We are the Midwest Mecca for late term abortions and I am committed to stopping that. And Bill Graves has had four years as governor and most of the time he has simply opposed efforts in the legislature to restrict human abortion Christic laws of Casey TV5 governor. What's your stand on a woman who is at 28 29 30 weeks

gestation who finds out that she will be fine by her child will die within minutes of being born. Where do you stand on abortion at that point. We'll get right back to that question. David has continually repeatedly distorted to not only his supporters but to my supporters and I know that you all know that. State Representative Tim Carmody who manage the floor on the bill on the floor of the House and State Senator Tim M-word who managed the bill on the floor of the Senate have put in writing to me what their intentions were in the creation of that bill. It's not there's no dispute here that the intention of the people that carried this bill was to include the mental health exception. I could not sign a bill and make a statement in a bill signing document that was contrary to what the intent of the legislation was from those legislators. The fact that there are other members of their bodies who had some disagreement with that is is is something again we have to work out through

courts of law. But it is totally erroneous and a fabrication to suggest that I had the principal role in somehow including mental health. Now in terms of your question I am terribly troubled. I have a daughter today because somebody chose not to seek out an abortion. I believe that late term abortions on healthy viable babies is wrong. And to the extent possible by law that it can be stopped it should be stopped. The bill as again referred to doesn't have a loophole. It has a specific exception that was written into the bill by pro-life legislators and agreed to them and in fact they voted in favor of it. I can only sign or veto bills. DAVID MILLER You're shaking your head a little earlier on. That's just not the case. First of all to call state senator Tim Emmert a pro-life legislator is a joke. It's a matter of fact. There was a clear vote on the floor in 1997 there was a motion to concur and some House language on a bill I know that

sounds like inside the ballpark staff. But he rose on the floor he said he supported the bill but he was going to vote against it because Bill Graves would veto it. I talk here about the specific provision on partial birth abortion. And the senator who carried it and those who watched it explained very carefully that the language in that law the language that now permits partial birth abortions in Kansas was the language that Bill Graves sent a message to the floor that he wanted you know that Bill was put together by a group that was called together by Bill Graves. But the truth is over four years of being governor he's provided no leadership on doing something about the kind of abortion that Ms Claus asked about. He has avoided the issue and only when we have gotten into an election year has Bill Graves decided that he ought to try and do something about this tragedy of abortion. Steve Kresge one more question on abortion. Mr. Miller has called for a special session to rectify the problems with this law. Governor we need a special session

to straighten this thing out or not. No we do not Steve. David Miller. David Miller responded to the call from several very dedicated pro-life legislators people who by the way don't agree with the governor's just stated interpretation of the law. Nor do they have the same understanding that he said. They said they would come to Topeka for a special one day session. They would forego any pay they are that dedicated and all it would take would it be a simple striking of that language from that statute. And this problem would be solved in Wichita Kansas. I think it's that important. You know we all panel of journalists civil questions on abortion but for those in our audience in radio and in television with a ready made up their minds on the abortion question let's get into a fresh discussion here with Krista clause. You have a question for David Miller if you would please. I wanted to know David Miller What is the single biggest threat to children in Kansas right now.

It's very difficult to say with the single biggest threat to children in Kansas's. I mean there are so many things that. Adversely affect their lives. I've talked a lot in this campaign about moral decline. I'm 48 years old. And when I think back on the way life was 30 or 40 years ago and I compare that kind of garbage that's thrown at children these days. The breakup of families that so often plagues our society. The smut that comes in through the electronic media and so forth. I think that the continuing moral decline in this country is probably the single greatest threat to children. Because where we're sending kids all the wrong messages I mean that's one of the reasons that I feel so strongly about the issue of human abortion is we keep sending them a message that it just doesn't matter. Well it does matter. And I think that we need to be more conscientious and more concerned about the kind of messages that we're sending to children and about the kind of moral decline we see in this society.

Bill grave's same question Krista I think the most significant challenge for children is growing up in in either single parent homes or homes without any parents at all. And I still think that what government can do in that regard is try to create through our welfare reform programs stronger economic situations in families hopefully through job creation more harmony within families so that they don't break up over economic circumstances an opportunity to to be fed and clothed properly. I still see that the linkage between government in many children's problems being fiscal issues relative to their family but I think at the heart of it though is a traditional two parent family. I would like to move on unless you feel I'm doing a major injustice. Mr. Bill Martin hold that would you direct a question please to Mr. GRAVES. Yes you. You proposed you use a

lot of tax cuts passed. You proposed doing it with car taxes. No. One would imagine that just kind of because you come from a fairly prosperous family that by this time you would have thought out a way to do something. For people with a little higher income. In the way of some type of tax relief. Mr. Miller's talked about new tax cuts as high as 45 50 percent for people with incomes of above $60000 and it's kind of like. What gets done for the wealthy or the more affluent. People in Kansas under four more years of your administration. Martin we have continually tried and you've heard us use the word balance and fairness in just about every state of the state message that we've delivered. I've tried to make sure that every cans and got a chance to benefit from some of the economic prosperity of our state and the tax cuts that were enacted. Well you do A. M. Levy reduction on cars or on real property

whether it's a standard deduction personal exemptions in income tax. A number of sales tax exemptions that have been provided they all flow pretty much across the board. And you know my read is that I've enjoyed a good life I've been blessed with parents who have been successful and I don't know that I always feel like I'm the one where tax cuts need to be targeted I think the people who are most in need of assistance at this time especially during times of prosperity or lower incomes and middle class working Kansans and I intend to probably continue to focus on those areas over the next four years. Mr. MILLER. I have proposed a significant change in our state income taxes for many many years. The personal exemption that's the amount of money you don't pay any tax on has been $2000. The legislature did raise it to 20 to 50 this year. I proposed increasing it to $4000 for every adult and to $8000 for every dependent child. That would mean in a typical family of four. The

first $30000 of income would not be subject to income taxation. I think that's a real family friendly plan because it really sends the greatest tax cut to those people who are doing the most important thing in our society and that's raising the future generation. We were just ask a question about what's the threat to children. And if you want to talk about it in terms of economic policy and government policy and tax policy I think it's giving real tax relief to those who are raising children. I've also proposed that we go to a flat tax. Flat tax because it helps put more money in the pockets of Kansas taxpayers and less money in the government. The governor has criticized my plan because the first year reduction in revenues is about $400 billion. But I checked earlier this week to find out how much money the state of Kansas had in its bank account. We call it the unincumbered cash balance at the end of the year. That happened just June 30th and at that time Kansas had seven hundred and fifteen million dollars in the bank. You see I think that $400

billion that I want to get back and tax cuts should be in the bank accounts of Kansas families stick it in the bank account. I'm sorry. I mean just cut it off that see Klasky doesn't seem to be satisfied with everything he's had here. MR No. If you cut taxes not only by a foreigner million but even the hundred million dollars. Your plan calls for an income tax cuts. What's going to happen to the quality of public schools in this state. That's a good question. The plan that I proposed calls for a first year freeze in state general fund spending. That's because in the last two years state general fund spending has gone up 20 percent. And I think that's more than enough. And I have also proposed that we provide for a limit on the future increase in state general fund spending. You know I said at the outset that I think it's important to put limits on government because when you don't put limits on government they just keep taking more money and more money and more money. But what if my plan that I opposed will provide for a significant continuing revenue stream and we will continue to be able to finance government and inflationary costs in state government. So

I don't see this as any kind of a threat to public schools. I think people who want to scream that the sky is falling see it as a threat to public schools. But there will be more than enough money for state government to spend. Mr. Graves your opportunity to respond only to to once again state that there is almost hundred million dollars of growth in state spending already built in to next year's budget to sustain property tax relief. The notion of a freeze is is is a is a false wait. It is not an honest way to characterize this. David starts with a 100 million dollar hole to sustain property tax relief already throws property tax relief overboard. You cannot have it both ways. I would love to go on food with these questions and fortunately time has caught up with us so we do need to wrap up this round of questioning each candidate now has a closing statement. Bill Graves is first up. Thank you again Nick and to everyone. Thank you. We have truly enjoyed the opportunity to be of service to Kansas. We're looking forward to serving over the next four years to work on reducing the property

taxes on automobiles making Kansas a better state in which to work and attend school making our schools safer through initiatives to rid them of violence but also match up quality education with that kind of financing that Kansans have historically provided to public education. We certainly have a strong proposal to enhance adoption related initiatives in our state to deal with the number of children coming into this world that need loving homes. And certainly I do feel strongly about our transportation infrastructure investment and the opportunity to assess what the needs of Kansans are. I believe there is a clear distinction between the two candidates for governor that were the last four years I've had the opportunity to make government be a responsive user friendly organization that works for you. I believe government is essential in people's lives and certainly I'm honored to have had the opportunity to serve and we'll look forward to serving in the next four years. I appreciate your support. On August 4th Now we turn to David Miller for his concluding remarks.

Well thank you very much. And I just want to say what an honor it has been. To run for governor of Kansas. I've had a tremendous time. I've met literally thousands of great people. I probably won't have a better opportunity through the mass media to say this. But I want to say thank you to my wife. Who has put up with me being gone who's carry the load for our business for these last three months. And thank you to thousands of Kansans who are supporting my campaign. Who have done so with their checks and have done so with shoe leather who have done so with their time. It's just been a tremendous experience in this campaign. I've talked about issues that I think are important. Limiting state government. Giving significant income tax Republic the income tax to Kansans including Republicans at school choice because I think it's terribly important that we re-establish that it's parents who make these kinds of educational choices. I represent traditional

Republican point of view and I think for that reason Kansas Republicans will want to nominate me to be their next governor. Thank you Mr. Miller. And because we're very fair here on public broadcasting we would like to thank your wife too. Mr. Graves obviously very good. Well this completes the Republican candidates round in this debate. We thank them for their participation as we prepared the studio for the next round. The debate between the Democratic candidates we will take a short break. Please stay with us. We will be back in just a moment. Welcome back to this case special presentation. A Kansas legislator

and a make it Tom Sawyer and Fred Phelps off to picquet square off in the Democratic primary. And tonight go head to head here on Casey Petey's 1998 primary debate for the Kansas governor. Let's begin with opening statements from each candidate. The winner of the pre-show coin toss. And based on that opening missed it Tom Sawyer will make the opening statement. Good evening. It's a pleasure to be here to see you. I like to think Channel 19 for this opportunity. I became a candidate for governor because I believe we need the candidate to talk about real issues that affect real candidates. I believe we need a candidate for governor who will try to improve the future of Kansas. We are in good times right now and I believe we need to take advantage of this opportunity. We need to seize the moment. This is our opportunity to improve our quality of life in Kansas and make it better for our children. It's our chance to improve our schools with smaller class sizes a chance to increase educational opportunity make it easier for families to send their kids to college. It's our chance to simplify and reform our

tax system so that we have real tax cuts that real Kansans really feel like a nomination a sales tax on food. We do. We need reform our health care system so that doctors and patients once again are making health care decisions. And we need to protect our environment protect the quality of our air quality of water in our quality of life. And we need to pay our debts first so that when the bad times come we don't have to cut programs or raise taxes. I'm Tom Sawyer. I offer my vision for the future Kansas and I want to be your governor and I'm Nick Haines and I'm now giving Fred Phelps the floor for your opening remarks please. Thank you Nick. On the last day of his life. President Kennedy spoke to a group of businessmen in Fort Worth just before we went over to Dallas and was shot he took his text if you please for that speech from Psalm 127 one except the Lord build the house they labor in vain that build it. Except the Lord keep the city the government the watchman wake but in vain. That was President Kennedy's philosophy of government. All the old time politicians talk that way.

President Kennedy was not exactly an abstinent monk living in a monastery. But he knew the difference between right and wrong. He said the righteousness of our cause must always underlie our policies today in Kansas. It's almost impossible to discern a righteous cause. When 12 year old girls come to Kansas to get a late term abortion we need a change. This completes the opening statements. Now on to questioning the same rules apply as in the first round. Taking the lead in this round of questioning is Steve Klasky of the Kansas City Star with a question please for Tom Sawyer and Representative Sawyer. Even though you're a Democrat you've been fairly giving Governor grades fairly favorable reviews during his first four years in office. How would you evaluate the governor and what kind of criticisms would you make of his performance thus far. You know philosophically I do have some agreement with the governor and I think we're personal friends. But my criticisms from the governor come from a standpoint that he hasn't done enough. You know I said at the beginning of my opening remarks that we have a golden opportunity here. We've got a good economy. This is our opportunity to improve

things and make life better. We need to seize the initiative and move forward. My concern is the governor credit has been a standstill governor in four years as governor. He hasn't introduced one new initiative of his own. Everything that's happened has been legislatively driven. And I think we're missing the opportunity I think we're squandering the good opportunity to improve our schools and make it easier for families to send our kids to college provide real tax reform and provide real tax cuts that real families real See you really see health care reform that our doctors and patients to make health care decisions and a simpler fair tax system. We're missing these opportunities with Governor Gray. And that's that's why I want to run for governor. Mr. Phelps same question my good friend Tom Sawyer is a Siamese twin the Governor Graves. That's one of the problems here. Corporate greed controls Kansas. Now look at this hog farm fiasco. We need to do a whole lots of things but there's no rectitude no righteousness if I may so say. And also I have to tell you brother Tom if the Democrats nominate Tom Sawyer it's not going to be a race. It's going to be a slaughter a massacre

of cloth of gold. Tom the kamikaze kamikaze candidate. And he knows I love him. But to say the truth of the matter is that all of these my friend David Miller can't win. Gray is going to win all these righteous Republicans. And by that I mean those that are opposed to abortion and opposed to so-called gay right will never vote for Thomas-Samuel Bill Graves. They will vote for Fred Phelps in a heartbeat. I'm going to move on to another question. I do want to give as in the rules of our contest here so to speak. An opportunity for Mr. Sawyer to briefly respond. If he'd like to. No need to Crista clause please. With a question to the Reverend Phelps Reverend Phelps I was wondering why you're running as a Democrat when you sound so much like a Republican. Well not the old time Democrats my dear. I'm a John Kennedy Democrat. I'm talking about. I didn't appreciate his personal peccadilloes but he knew the difference between right and wrong. He said I will never sign a bill into law. It conflicts with the law of God. I'm

an old time Harry Truman Democrat. He said The buck stops here. I mean and what would I do. Go to those same kind of Republicans that are in leadership in Kansas that are not one bit different from the pro-gay pro-abortion Democrats in Kansas. It doesn't make any difference what the what the label on a person is. You go to the substance of it. What do you believe. What motivates you. You can't beat some 27 one except the Lord build the house they labor in vain that build it and accept the Lord keep the city the government the watchman Waycott. But in vain. And until we return to that concept which this country was built upon that being nothing but tragedy and more of it we can't build jails fast enough. We're breeding criminals twice as fast as we can control. And and so forth. Mrs. SAWYER would you like to respond. It wasn't directed at you necessarily but if you wanted to make clear your democratic credentials tonight that would be obviously

appropriate at this time. OK. Honestly I've been in the state legislature the last 12 years I've served as the House minority leader in the last six years serving as a voice for House Democrats and we fought hard for working families in those last 12 years and I believe that as a Democrat it's up for it's up to us to fight for those who can't fight for themselves for working families and senior citizens and small business people. And that's what I've done in my career. Martin Holford of Hovis Capital Report. Please can you direct your question to Mr. SAWYER. Yes. Want What does is the prospect for the state of reducing or putting in some sort of lid on property taxes. Is there a mechanism to do that. And the reverend has talked about eliminating property taxes and that's a whole bunch of different questions there. But what do you think is feasible in terms of you know putting a lid on them lowering them a little bit.

There are several mechanisms that we can use what is the proper current property tax that that is in place. Unfortunately a lot of cities and counties have already exempt themselves from that live. We can always bring them back under and eliminate some of the exemptions. We also have the local level room tax reduction fund which is sales tax revenue that the state shares with local units to reduce property taxes. We can increase that funds to reduce local city and county property tax levies in addition to that we set the amount of money that local school districts must levy on property taxes and right now that's a 20 males we can always further reduce that. So those are mechanisms that are already in place that we can use to reduce property taxes in Kansas. But in addition to that we can also pass for example a constitutional limit that would place limits on property taxes or constitutional amendments that would place limits on state spending. Myself and speaker sound better and several others co-sponsored such an amendment a few years ago that would have limited the growth of government spending at all levels to the growth in personal income so that the state cannot spend at a higher rate than your personal income growth on average in the state of Kansas and those are some of the things we can do to hold down property taxes. Fred Phelps please your response had a few more of these debates.

I'd make a convert out of Tom. Running out of time for 10 years I've advocated the total abolition of property taxes is hopelessly unfair. Impossible to me made equitable some poor little old widow in a house with a fixed income gets it tax right out of house and home oftentimes in one part of Kansas paying as much property taxes as some multi-millionaire and a multimillion dollar home in another part of Kansas. The abolition of property tax taxes to be fair have got to be levied at a point of a transaction demonstrating ability to pay. If you got $50000 to buy a new car you'd jolly well got 5000 or whatever to pay the taxes and you demonstrated that and Tom saw knows that this government is too big too costly and I'm tired of Brother grave's prating about lowering taxes and lowering spending. Don't you guys ever read the annual reports of the budget that the legislature put it out. I've got 10 of them the last 10 years.

When he went into office the budget for Kansas was seven point one billion. Now it's eight point six billion one and a half billion more than when he went off his knees bragging about reducing taxes. I mean really reduce taxes. Mr. Phelps let me just say the whole thing here is having difficulty saying a seat here. What's the what's the question. MARTIN Well it sounds good to get rid of all property taxes. You have a proposal for cities and counties and school districts and cemetery districts. Yeah. Drainage districts that depend on property taxes. What's what's the other half of this government's got to quit spending money. Like it's going out of style. Government has got to downsize at every level of government. I mean we can't keep this up. MARTIN I'm talking about at least twice as big as there ought to be by gentle gentle judicious attrition. Government has got to be seriously downsized. Corporate greed cannot continue to run the government

in Kansas and downsize the government. Look at this 250 million dollar boondoggle just passed the one that can erase wait. All that's done is to subsidize filthy rich. Republicans are already too. But we do we need to move on here. But I wanted to give Mr. Sawyer an opportunity before we move on to fresh territory if you want to respond. Yeah I do believe our property taxes in Kansas are too high. And I do believe that Kansans need real tax cuts that they'll really feel one of the problems we've had over the last few years is taxes and cut a lot but they haven't trickled down to average Kansans. Most working families have not felt those tax cuts so we need tax cuts they'll feel want to tax cuts I pushed them we did get passed was a $20000 homestead exemption so the first $20000 in value of your home you would not pay school property taxes on those are the kind of tax cuts when you get real Kansans would really feel. Steve Klasky of the Kansas City Star. Could you pose the next question please to Reverend Phelps Reverend Phelps one of the centerpieces of your opponent's campaign this summer is a proposal to decrease class sizes in the lower grades. You're talking about downsizing government. What do you think about the idea of

hiring more teachers so that the Klatt their school classrooms for our young kids are a little smarter. Well you know Steve probably you know that in my humble opinion you know education in Kansas already gets about four billion dollars of that eight point six billion almost half the total wealth of this state is given for education. I think it's it's a fat sow with its feet in the trough that needs to be seriously downsized. We need to return to good old education. We need to have vouchers so there'll be some competition. We need to take it all away from the NEA. Everybody knows this. I mean where is the political will to get it done. There's got to be a radical change in order to get any of these things accomplished or these guys just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. I don't think any of them study those budget reports Mr I'm talking about a serious reduction. We need to get rid of these courses these electives social engineering the sex education courses. This pro-gay

stuff they call these Kansas colleges and universities the queer. That's their term friendliest universities in the world. We want to be famous as the world capitals. Late term abortions and world famous for our universities universities being propaganda mills for homosexuals and recruiting depots. And on that note Mr. Sawyer please. OK. If I were elected governor I'd make education our top priority. First thing I do is set a goal that every child and Klan's Kansas sleep through a great deal to read write and do basic math skills at the third grade level and I do three things to help make that happen. First of all to reduce class sizes in the early grades so teachers can give the kids attention they need. Second to start in very intensive adult mentoring program where we have adults volunteer their time and come into the public schools and help those kids that are falling behind. And third I'd make my lieutenant governor running mate Elizabeth Baker put her in charge of improving our schools in Kansas. One of the reasons I picked her was a very strong education background she is a former schoolteacher former State Board of Education number of spent 10 years in the legislature working on education issues working together we can meet the goal that every child in Kansas in the third grade is going

to read write do basic math skills of a third grade level an extra question from Steve on what is being said proposed if you do that if you decrease class sizes how many more teachers do you got to hire and what's that going to cost this state if every school district were to do it tomorrow it would cost $30 billion. The reality is it will take some time for school districts to do that so it probably would have to phased in over three years. So we're talking about maybe 10 million dollars a year over each of the next three years to improve education in Kansas reduce class sizes. As Reverend Phelps pointed out we spend a lot of money in education right now. And I think $10 million is a very small amount of money to improve our schools in this state. Mr. Phelps did you want a quick opportunity to rebut anything you've heard in that statement. My dear old friend you've done it again Tom congenitally unable to talk about cutting things his argument. Did you hear that this is only another 10 million like this sugar throat center to set a billion here billion there of all you're talking about real money. I want to hear some words coming out of the mouths of these politicians about reducing the size of government.

We want to hear now some words coming out of the mouth of Casey TV5 Christa Claus with a question please directed to Mr. Tom Sawyer. Representative Sawyer if you do win this primary what do you see as being the dominating issues in the general election. What will you challenge your opponent time. First of all I think we need bold leadership to move us forward in the 21st century. We need to seize the moment we are in good times right now and we need to take advantage of the good time. This is our opportunity to improve our quality of life in Kansas. We need to improve our schools by reducing class sizes. We need to improve educational opportunity with the Stars program which would use lottery dollars to send kids to college. We need to reform our tax system to make it simpler so that most Kansans can father income taxes on a postcard and provide real tax cuts that Kansas really really feel like when the nation on the sales tax on food. We need health care reform so once again doctors and patients are making healthcare decisions and not insurance company bureaucrats. And we need to make sure we protect our environment the quality of air the quality of water our quality of life. And lastly but we're in the good times we need to pay our debt off the state general fund from that produced the 600 million dollar

surplus we have this year. That's a hundred million dollars in debt in it. We need to pay that debt off so that when the bad times do come we don't have to raise taxes or cut programs. Mr. Phelps please the same question says What will the dominant issue be. If Tom Sawyer and Bill Graves go at it. Well I suggest to you that if they if you win this Democratic primary Mr. Felt the dominant issue be yes if you are against Bill Graves or David Miller What will the dominant. Yes. Yes. Except the Lord build the house. They labor in vain that build it. Except the Lord keep the city the government the watchman wake is in vain. You've got to quit killing these little babies that's going to be front burner. You know you understand the main thing that any governor can do any chief executive officer is to set a tone. Teddy Roosevelt says as a bully pulpit we've got to quit Usenet bully pulpit for the devil. I we've got to use the jawboning of Harry Truman and get some tone set so that there's some moral return. The Wichita Eagle just had a survey four out of the six things most on Kansans minds turn around the issue of moral decay.

The other two are taxes and education. Krista you had a follow up Reverend Phelps how do you reconcile your hatred of homosexuals or the homosexual lifestyle with the. Profoundly loving themes of the Bible. That's that's what the. That's what the lawyers sometimes call assuming facts not in evidence. Almost everybody agrees that a politician has the right to his religious opinions and religious exercise. And the answer to it is. Forty five little words they call the First Amendment. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and tissue Titian their government for redress of grievances. Almost every time I see the news president President Clinton is walking out of the foundry Methodist Church with a bible hanging on the end of his right hand.

That's his religion foundry Methodist Church says that the Lord Jesus Christ was a drag queen but that his religion founded Methodist Church says the Apostle Paul was a repressed self-loathing homosexual. But that Bill Clinton's religion. He's got the right to believe that I've got the right to believe what I believe. Mr. SAWYER If you are desirous of a response you may do so right now. Don't say my beliefs. I do believe as she said. But the overall message of the Bible is to teach us to love one another and to treat others and to do unto others that we'd have them do unto us. I believe that's the overall message and I believe it would be it's unfair and wrong for us to judge anybody else but to discriminate against anybody else. I think our message from the Bible is to love each other. We have a short question if we can Martin at the very end Martin Holford of Hovis Capital Report. Could you direct that please. First to Fred Phelps. Yes sir. You've said that you are not in favor of corporate hog farming in Kansas. No and that would be an issue Mark. OK. First trial first day is governor. Do you order the secretary of Health and the

environment to roll back. That wastewater permit for Murphy family farms. Anything that is lawful to do to stop the implementation of that hog farm fiasco while we seek to effectuate that repeal. I will do. A governor has got a whole lot of powers and prerogatives by executive orders. I would do everything that is lawful to do to stop that hog farm. We're going to be the state capital of the world as well as a late abortion capital of the world. Mr. SAWYER the same question on the corporate hog front. I agree. I think we should slow down on corporate hog farming. We should not issue any more permits and stop the permits that are already in place until we can make sure we protect the quality of our air of the quality of our water and quality of life from these out of state corporations who are here today and gone tomorrow. Well this concludes the round of questioning for the Democratic candidates. Now we'll hear their closing statements. We begin with Tom Sawyer would you please lead us off. Again I think Channel 19 for this opportunity I've enjoyed the last six weeks as I've traveled around

Kansas talking to people about this race for governor I entered this race for governor because I believe we need a candidate. We're talking about real issues that affect real Kansans. But we need a candidate for governor talk about the future of the state and we are in good times right now. It's up to us to seize this moment and take advantage of the good times during the good times when we have a chance to improve our quality of life and make real changes. And I believe that what we ought to do is improve our schools by reducing class sizes in the early grades. We need to increase educational opportunity like an easier for families to send our kids to college or the star scholarship program which used the lottery for college scholarships. We need to reform our tax system make it simpler for people like a father income taxes on a postcard and provide real tax relief that real families real see like the elimination of the sales tax on food. We need health care reform so once again doctors and patients are making health care decisions and not insurance company bureaucrats. And we need to protect the environment the quality of our air quality of water and quality of life from his out of state corporations were here today and gone tomorrow and finally I'll say we're in the good times and we have this large surplus we need to pay our debts now so that when we do have bad times we don't have to raise taxes or cut programs.

The final word goes to I'm sorry to cut you off there. Mr. SAWYER the final word goes to the Reverend Fred Phelps. Thank you Nick. This contest at the primary level between Fred Phelps and Tom Sawyer. Didn't need to take place. Most everybody knows that that wing of the Democratic Party in Kansas City is pro-gay and pro-abortion. Couldn't stand the idea that Fred Phelps would be the nominee although nobody wanted that job as the Democratic nominee against the supposedly invulnerable sitting governor. They lassoed my good friend Tom Sawyer and haul him kicking and screaming into the state house just before the filing deadline. He had to file for re-election to this position of leadership in the house. I don't believe my dear friends in politics by vindictiveness and I'll say it one more time. Any Democrat in Kansas that wants to return to the governor's office you ought to vote for Fred Phelps. I can beat

I can beat Bill Graves. My old friend Tom saw you doesn't have a prayer would be a slaughter. And on that note thank you for joining us for this special presentation of the Kansas governor primary debate. I'd like to thank the candidates and our guests journalists as well as Kansas broadcasting council member stations for joining us. I'm Nick Haynes from KNAU Kansas Public Radio. From all of us here at KCET. Thanks for watching and listening. You.

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