OutCasting; Agender (Part 2 of 2)

[Tori] I can't begin to think of how i could possibly explain to my bosses, to my coworkers, that I am agender, that I am nonbinary. Because to plenty of them, being trans is like a "hop skip and an imaginary jump". To tell them that I don't identify as anything would be too difficult for them to understand. [Dhruv] This is OutCasting. Public radio's LGBTQ youth program, where you don't have to be queer to be here. OutCasting is a production of Media for the Public Good, a listener supported independent producer based in New York, online at outcastingmedia.org. Hi, I'm Dhruv, a youth participant in OutCasting's main studio in Westchester County, New York. In previous episodes of OutCasting, we have discussed the complex topic of gender identity. You can hear all of these episodes at outcastingmedia.org. As we have come to understand more about gender, it's become clear that gender and physical sex are two different things. Physical sex is usually defined as the biological characteristics that will

determine a person to be either male or female at birth. But gender is more complicated. It can be defined as a spectrum between masculinity and femininity, and it's an emotional and mental component of our existence. In most of us, our physical sex and gender are in alignment with each other and we're not conflicted about our gender. The word that describes this is cisgender, "cis" being derived from a latin root meaning "on the same side of". So cisgender means that our physical sex, as male or female, is on the same side of, or in alignment with, with our self-perceived gender as male or female. The opposite of cisgender is transgender. There's evidence that female brains are physiologically different from male brains, and in transgender people, a female body may contain a male brain or vice versa. A transgender boy may feel that he's a boy even though he lives in a girl's body, and he can feel male just as strongly as a cisgender male. It's no less real to him just because he lives in a female body. There is more to gender variation than that. Just as the range of sexualities is a spectrum from exclusively heterosexual to exclusively homosexual with many people falling in between. there's a

spectrum of gender identities as well. There are people whose gender is nonbinary, meaning that they don't feel entirely male or entirely female. Some people have a fluid gender identity that changes over time. On a recent edition of OutCasting, we talked with our own youth participant Jamie who has a non binary gender identity. Beyond that, there are intersex people who are born with ambiguous physical organs. Often, doctors make decisions when an intersex baby is born to perform surgery to create either male or female genitalia. Then they instruct the parents to raise the child as the sex that was assigned at birth in surgery. It's starting to become more widely known that they often make mistakes. This demonstrates that having female organs and being raised as a girl do not make a child a girl, and vice versa. In this two part OutCasting series, we examine yet another variation on this theme: agender people who don't experience gender at all. In the previous edition of OutCasting we heard the beginning of a conversation between OutCaster Jamie and their friend Tori about Tori's agender identity. In that episode Jamie and Tori talked about the ways in which Tori came to understand their

identity. Both parts of this series can be found on our website outcastingmedia.org. In this edition, the conversation continues. Tori talks about how they found community with other LGBTQ people and the ways in which being agender affects their relationships. [Jamie] Thanks so much for joining us Tori. [Tori] You're welcome. [Jamie] I think it's interesting the use of the words "girlfriend" and "boyfriend", because they're so binary, and the one non-binary, non-gender-assuming term is "partner". And the word "partner" is such a mature word -- it's not a word that you usually use when you're in a high school kind of relationship, it's something more long-term. Something that you usually, you know before gay marriage was legal you'd see two women and they're "partners" because for some reason they couldn't call themselves something else. I think that's a big issue. The fact that there isn't another kind of non-gendered word for a younger couple, and I think that that's also, you know. It's become an issue because of media not representing any kind of nonbinary relationships and nonbinary people and

so a lot of people don't grow up very comfortable calling someone anyone else or anything else other than a boyfriend or a girlfriend, or they're not comfortable with a partner not liking those words because they're just not exposed. [Tori] Right, that's absolutely true. I think a word that's going around right now which I'm not a huge fan of because it sounds a little infantile, but it does get the job done, is "datefriend". Like "Hey, this is my datefriend" instead of saying boyfriend or girlfriend. It kind of gets the point across, like this the person that I'm seeing right now. And I think it works better in the nonbinary community like, "hey, this is my datefriend". If I said that to someone else who is nonbinary, they'd probably get the point pretty quickly. If I were to say it to anyone else, they would be like "so you went on a friend with your date?", it wouldn't do the job. So I think there needs to be some discussion about it. In the media there is not that much discussion about non binary identities. I think I heard Laverne Cox say it

last year, two years ago, she was giving a speech and she said "nonbinary" and I was like, [gasp] "Oh my goodness! What? We're acknowledged in the media by like a prominent human? Like, what? This wonderful woman has come out and acknowledged us? What?" But that was the first time, and it doesn't really happen. And to anyone else who's listening to her speech, it probably went right over their heads "Ok, she's talking about all this great stuff. Nonbinary? What? I don't know what that is," because when you don't know about something, you just don't care pretty much. But you know, for that half second where we're acknowledged as a group, like "hey, yeah we exist! Wonderful!" That was kind of groundbreaking. But now you have a few people who are coming out in society and saying "yes, I am nonbinary." There's this is actor on... I can't remember their name, Asia something? Well, they're nonbinary, and they play a nonbinary character, and they - it's so

awful that I cannot remember their name. But they won an award and you know how categories are, you know, "best actor" "best actress", they were like, "No, I want to be in the best actor category because I am not a woman." A simple request. And they actually honored this request, like "Ok fine, this person isn't a woman. We're gonna put them in the best actor category." And it's like what? That's great, that's wonderful! Like that's groundbreaking! This is something that doesn't happen because this actor is basically the only nonbinary actor who is out there. Not a transgender actor, there are a few, but they're nonbinary and they're getting recognition for their talent and being respected. [Jamie] That's a big leap. [Tori] It is. [Jamie] Does being agender make you feel isolated? [Tori] No, it doesn't. I don't really think about it, I don't really think about like my gender in terms of how alone I am, like

there aren't any other agender people to speak to. My best friend is also nonbinary, so there is always that connection, so I always have someone to speak to who will always understand me. [Jamie] How did you find that community of people? [Tori] I don't even know. It's because of the time that we live in. This is what's wonderful. No matter how you feel, no matter who you are, there is always going to be a group of people that you can connect to. And it used to be that, you know, if you were young and you were, like, you were gay you felt like the only person who felt the way that you did. In this day and age, thirteen year old gay kid, you can go online and find, like, another thirteen year old gay kid to talk to -- just to talk to. Like someone else who connects with you and feels exactly as you do. Hey, like, you're a twelve year old gay girl, like living on a farm in Iowa -- I don't know.

Hey, there's this twelve year old gay guy living in Florida. And you guys can chat, and you can be friends, and say "Yea, school was hard today, but you know, got through it. How is your day?" There is an endless community for you. [Jamie] How did you discover the term agender? [Tori] When I was in college, I had to write a thesis for my women's studies course. And while I was doing research for the coursework, a lot of it was history and looking into how gender and sexuality existed throughout history. And I can't remember offhand what society it was, but there was a society. It was a Native American society -- I cannot remember which one -- where people were honored who were not male or female. I was like, "Wow, I'm gonna delve into this and look into this society a little more deeply" and while looking into it, I came across the term

"agender". I came across a lot of nonbinary terms, and I was like, "Wow! There is a lot of information out there." So that's really how I found out, through my thesis work. [Jamie] Are you comfortable with your identity? [Tori] Yeah, I have to say... I am. I'm comfortable with my identity and who I am. Dysphoria still exists. It's probably always going to be there, because I can't think about what exactly I don't like myself so that'll probably always be around. But for the most part, I'm comfortable with my identity. [Jamie] Are you open about it it? [Tori] It depends on who I'm with - with friends, generally yes. With my family, absolutely not. I don't think I could ever completely be open and honest with most of my family simply because they truly wouldn't understand, they wouldn't attempt to understand, so... Which is fine, I can't force anyone to change their minds, that's who they are, but with

friends i am, always pretty much open, [Jamie] What about in your work environment? [Tori] No, absolutely not. [laughs] I don't think it would go over well at all. I can't begin to think of how I could possibly explain to my bosses, to my coworkers -- well, to some of my older coworkers -- that I am agender, that I am non binary. Because to plenty of them, being trans is like a "hop skip and an imaginary jump" if you know I mean. So to tell them that I don't identify as anything would be too difficult for them to understand. [Jamie] I completely understand how you feel. I don't use the pronouns that I prefer or really share my identity with people that I work with, because you know I work with kids -- I teach.

I teach at a camp. And if -- number one, if my coworkers are using different pronouns than I'm using for the kids, because I really can't explain to every child how I identify, why I feel that way, and then you know get approached by their parents. But I think that would be very confusing between coworkers and kids to have that kind of... the two different pronouns. But also you know, it's pretty dangerous to come out at work, especially as something that's non binary. I do think that, yeah, especially with the people in upper management, it would be a little bit hard for them even if I was identifying as trans. But as nonbinary, I think it would definitely be ignored. I think it would be seen as an attention grabber. [Tori] Absolutely. [Jamie] And I think that people would refuse to use my pronouns -- half the time because they just don't understand it, and the other half the time because they think that they have the right to call me whatever they want because they're in charge of me. [Tori] Absolutely. I feel the same way, in my field,

I have experienced similar things. I have listened to management at my place of work say, "Well, know, being trans is something that's totally imaginary, it's something that's in your head." And hearing this from the person who is in charge of all of us made me feel absolutely unsafe. I could never imagine coming out as agender at this place. If this was a more nuanced society which taught from an early age there are more than two genders, then this wouldn't be an issue. Their children would be taught early on there are people who use other pronouns -- respect their pronouns. This would be a complete non-issue. But because we do not live in this society that i'm dreaming of, this isn't something that will happen quickly or in the foreseeable future.

If children are taught from an early age, "Hey, you can be she, you can be they, you can be xe/xem, whatever you want to be," it would go so much more easily. But because of the prejudice that we face, it cannot be like that which is sad. [Jamie] I think one of the other issues is that a lot of the time when people are working with kids, when kids try to come out in some way, because they don't have the knowledge backing it, a lot of adults, teachers, just people watching over them, don't take it seriously and that's a really big deterrent of, you know, ever ever understanding yourself or understanding someone else that you heard going through that. Because they think, "oh, you're just trying to get attention from your friends or trying to make them laugh," or "oh, you're just unhappy right now, because you, you know lost a game of hopscotch or something like and you're just trying to get out your frustration," and that's absolutely not true. It needs to start at the beginning, it needs to have adults allowing

kids to express how they feel and continue accepting them as they grow up, and having those adults be advocates and then those kids that grow up into adults continue to be advocates for things to change. [Tori] Right, a lot of times I think the issue is that when children act out of the norm, let's say, and try to express themselves differently than what an adult is used to, these things are just swept under the carpet or ignored. But I think what's really important in that, what a lot of adults don't understand that, your gender expression is not your gender identity. So sure, you have... your son wants to wear dresses and moms make up or whatever -- that doesn't automatically mean that you can assume that your child is trans, or gay or anything else. They very well may be, and this is something that should be nurtured because this is your child, this is someone who you're supposed to help grow, and who you're supposed to love. But a lot of times parents see this as a cause

for panic. This is a child learning. This is a child learning a different way to express themselves. and this is something that needs to be - this is something that has to be taught to parents, I think. Because when you see a child who isn't acting as you would think a child should act, you're stifling them. When you tell them, "You can't wear that," "you can't do that," "hopscotch isn't for boys," "putting your hair in pigtails isn't for boys"... Why? Who are they hurting? [Dhruv] This is OutCasting, public radio's LGBTQ youth program produced by the Media for the Public Good in New York online at outcastingmedia.org. On this edition, OutCaster Jamie is talking with their friend Tori, a fellow nonbinary person, about Tori's experience of being agender. [Jamie] Have you faced any discrimination within the LGBTQ community? [Tori] For being agender? No, never.

[Jamie] How do you describe sexual orientation in the absence of a gender identity? [Tori] For me this is a little difficult to answer because I am asexual, which means that I do not feel sexual attraction. There are plenty of agender people who are not asexual, there are plenty of asexual people who like to be intimate -- I am not one of them. So for me I am panromantic, which means that I like you just for your personality. If I think you're nice and you treat me well, you make me laugh, that's what's really important, but this doesn't really have anything to do with... What I like has nothing to do with the physical body. Even agender people, even nonbinary people can still be... When you're non binary, a little bit more goes into

sexual orientation. There are plenty of gay nonbinary people, there are plenty of bisexual nonbinary people. And what this means is, for them, you want to be with someone who identifies as you do, So, in saying that you're gay and nonbinary means that you're attracted to someone who is the same gender as you while you are nonbinary, which is your gender. So this is to say, "Yeah, I wanna be with this other person. They may not share the same physical characteristics as me, but they are who I am attracted to," which can be a little bit confusing for some cis people who might not understand how this works. It really isn't difficult to understand mentally, but for some people because it's not what they're used to, it's a little bit hard

to understand. So if you're a person who is assigned male at birth and who identifies as nonbinary, and you're gay, this typically means that you're interested in other people who were assigned male at birth - not exclusively, but because you're non binary, it generally means that you're attracted to someone who identifies as you do. For someone who is agender, if you are agender and you're - you also identify as gay, you might just be interested in someone who shares your gender identity. There are plenty of agender lesbians, which might be a little confusing because, when you think of a lesbian, you think of two women together. But this is something that goes back to gender and what it

means to you. So if you are an agender lesbian, you have to think about how... [Jamie] If you're agender and you're a lesbian, you have to think about how you identify and how you perceive the lesbian label for yourself. [Tori] Basically, yes. [Jamie] So, labels are called labels just because they're something that you can use, and they're an option. Labels are not necessary. So know if you're - if you identify as a cisgender male, and you also identify as gay, then you may like another man. But you, technically can like whoever you want, because no one is stopping you, and a label is not stopping you. And everyone makes their own definitions for their labels. It might say one thing in a dictionary, but words mean certain things to certain people. And I think it's important to recognize that people are free to do that, and that's a way that some cisgender people may be

able to begin understanding how nonbinary people identify sexually or with sexual attraction. I'm nonbinary, and I'm pansexual. That's a little bit easier because being pan means you're... it's not based on any sort of gender. It's like you said, more personality wise. But if i'm nonbinary and I'm a lesbian, I could say, "oh, if i'm female bodied, maybe I like other female bodied people," or, "I am nonbinary, and I like other nonbinary people," -- it's really up to you. Does being agender affect your everyday life? [Tori] No, it actually doesn't. [Jamie] It's good to hear that. [Tori] Yeah, I mean, it doesn't affect my life at all. I'm not dating anyone so I don't really have to explain anything to anyone, I don't really have to talk about it at work, I wouldn't mind if somebody asked, and I was comfortable enough, but yeah, it just, it doesn't doesn't affect me at all, it doesn't affect my life - it's good times.

[Jamie] I think that that's amazing. I think that that's also not an experience everyone has, because we do both live in a very liberal area, And identifying as something not in a binary might be a different experience for someone living in the middle of our country, But it is amazing that you can live your life and be the person that you truly are without having to explain things every five seconds, or have it get in the way of you fulfilling your dreams. [Tori] I mean, I am misgendered on a pretty regular basis, but I think it would be more difficult to stop and explain to every person I meet - "Hey, I'm agender, these are my pronouns," and then having to stop and explain what it means to be agender and then have people say, "I don't believe that. That's not true, that can't be real." So it doesn't really get in the way of my life. I wish people were a little bit more educated and nuanced but, we're getting there.

[Jamie] Education comes with time. [Tori] It does. [Jamie] Is there anything else you'd like to tell us? Something that I will say is it's important to be patient with yourself. It takes a lot of time to get comfortable with who you are, and to understand yourself at a deeper level There's nothing wrong with questioning things. I definitely feel like at this point in time, we're getting to a point in society where it's okay to question yourself. Like it's ok not to just sit down and say, "Hey, I've been told I'm this, so this is what I am." I think it's really important that - and really great that at this point in time that we're able to step back and say, "Hm, you know what? Maybe I'm not a boy, maybe I'm not a girl. Maybe I'm bigender, maybe I'm both." You know, this is a wonderful time that we're living in. Despite all of the negativity in the world, despite all of the nastiness, this is a great time, that we're alive, to be able to discover who we are

And even if society as a whole doesn't accept you, there are always - there is always that community for you. There will always be someone who is there for you and accepts you. [Jamie] Thank you so much Tori. It was amazing having you. [Tori] Thank you, it was great being here. [Dhruv] Tori is an agender friend of OutCaster Jamie. Both they and Jamie share their life experiences as nonbinary people in this episode. This has been part two of a two-part interview. Both parts can be found on our website outcastingmedia.org. Now we hear from Nico on another variation of gender identity. [Nico] Being transgender comes with many different feelings, aside from just feeling like a gender other than the one you were assigned at birth. One of those feelings is gender dysphoria. I usually experience gender dysphoria when I'm presenting more outwardly female. For example, if I'm forced to wear a dress for certain event, I will feel extremely uncomfortable for the remainder of the event, trying to hide myself so others don't see me. It feels wrong and awkward at best. Gender dysphoria is also pretty debilitating when I'm trying

to do certain tasks, but I can't stop feeling anxious about my body so I'm left unable to get work done. Interestingly enough, I initially presented as female when I first came to OutCasting, even though it's a safe space and I'm out as trans to most of my friends and my immediate family. The reason was that I introduced myself with my birth name at first, just because I wasn't sure what else to say. Afterwards, I wanted to come out as trans but felt like I had already presented as female and it would be a hassle for everyone. So I stayed quiet until recently, when I was directly asked if I was cisgender. I don't think I ever would have come out if I hadn't been asked, but that has more to do with the fact that I can be an anxious and awkward person and my feeling unsafe in that environment. While I was closeted, it was fairly difficult to hear people refer to me as "she" or "her", but for the most part I'm used to it by now. I've learned to kind of ignore it, despite how uncomfortable it makes me. With my experience, I think it's hard to say that there's any type of typical transgender

person, so it's hard to say if I fit that mold. Whether or not I seem "typical" depends on an objective opinion. I think I'm probably a typical transgender teenager -- I don't see anything that would set me apart from anyone else in that respect, but everyone goes through this experience in their own way. So alluding to it in a black and white way seems incorrect. My experience of being transgender is quite mild compared to people who have gone through much worse. I think it's important to respect people no matter where they hail from or what they identify with, and not to demean people's struggles. [Dhruv] That's it for this edition of OutCasting, public radio's LGBTQ youth program, where you don't have to be queer to be here. This program has been produced by the OutCasting team, including youth participants Alex, Samantha, Andrea, Max, Quinn, Nico, Lauren, Dante, Lucas, Jamie, and me, Dhruv. Our assistant producers are Alex Minns and Josh Valley, and our executive producer is Mark Sophos. OutCasting is a production of Media for the Public Good, a listener supported independent producer based in New York. More information about OutCasting is

available at outcastingmedia.org. You'll find information about the show, listen links for all OutCasting episodes and the podcast link. OutCasting is also on social media. Connect with us on Twitter, Facebook and YouTube at outcastingmedia. If you're having trouble, whether it's at home or school or just with yourself, call the Trevor Project hotline at 866 488 7386 or visit them online at thetrevorproject.org. The Trevor Project is an organization dedicated to LGBTQ youth suicide prevention. Call them if you have a problem. Seriously, don't be scared. They even have an online chat you can use if you don't want to talk on the phone. Being different isn't a reason to hate or hurt yourself. Alright, go get a piece of paper. I'll say it one more time: 866 488 7386 or online at thetrevorproject.org. You can also find a link on our site, outcastingmedia.org under OutCasting LGBTQ resources. I'm Dhruv, thanks for listening.