BackStory; Schism: The Branch Davidians at Waco

major funding for backstory is provided by an anonymous donor the national endowment for the humanities at the university of virginia that joseph and robert cornell memorial foundation and the author of finding davis foundations the genius walking the backstory the show that explains the history behind the headlights and there's an outcry about this year marks the twenty fifth anniversary of one of the most infamous won force been confrontations in american history it's summed up in a single word waco it begins every twenty eight nineteen ninety three that's when heavily armed agents from the federal bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms tried to execute a search warrant federal officials had been tipped off that the branch davidians have been amassing an arsenal of illegal weapons they'd also heard that the group's leader david koresh had multiple wives including teenage girls the agents had a warrant to search the property but when they got

out their vehicles there was a shootout four atf agents and six branch davidians were killed the fbi then encircled the property for the next fifty one days in an effort to get a rash and the branch davidians to surrender some members did come out but koresh and most of his followers refused for those two months we could dominate the headlines i had printed everything done guide fact afghan off it didn't end quickly run money we can tie it worth the lead reporter for the dallas morning and heard that if you when they teach and banned coverage reporters from all over the world descended upon to cover the story a real dramatic gingrich

and no one knew then and it happened in an interview on the works of history the fbi kind of course are in a stand off a polite keith government tanks punched holes in the building and competent military grade tear gas progressive idioms plywood residents to burst into flames ad members died in the place including about two dozen children at all this broadcast live all around the world i think that i think that all that one in five american households who watch in real time at the compound armed conflict with iran here then and an american tragedy in the country the story didn't end on april nineteenth nineteen

ninety three because bond criminal trials congressional hearings an official investigation says it also became a rallying cry for the far right a militia groups convinced the government was coming after their thirties exactly two years after the fatal fire timothy mcveigh bombed the federal building in oklahoma city killing a hundred seventy eight people and wounding seven hundred others he said it was payback for the government's role in the wake of the siege also remains a cautionary tale about the military station of law enforcement so the daily show for one revisited since twenty five years and also hear more about the prestigious an apocalyptic christian theology but first let's return reportedly hancock who covered the fifty one day standoff in siege for the dallas morning news she was at home on the morning to recreate the day the atf raid she was recently pepper was your

call from an editor in the newsroom and he said that they're worth a shootout between police and as he put it a bunch of religious non adds that it felt like you're kind of people you'd better get down there lt lind buy your car and drove the one hundred miles to waco the places that roadblock says she couldn't get very close the pressure that is property law enforcement officials told reporters if they've staged the raid to confiscate illegal weapons religious group but hancock says she quickly pardoned different version of events from people who knew the pressure disease or were sympathetic

at all it ain't hancock says that even today it's not clear who fired first drink at half rate and although courts in congress have said they believe that the dvd and fired first year a lot of people who believe that the government shot first during the fifty one day standoff that followed the fbi used a variety of tactics to persuade koresh and the branch davidians to surrender well one team of agents tried to negotiate with crash a rifle fbi team resorted to harsher tactics they cut off the branch davidians water electricity they being floodlights into the

building at night to prevent the davidians from sleeping they also blasted recordings of crying babies telephones ringing and rabbits being slaughtered hancock says it was impossible to know how the branch davidians are responding to these tactics the fbi had severed the phone lines plus bureau prevent a report getting your property saying it was too dangerous because of that it is not open fire we get very early on to get contact with after the first few days there was no contact with anybody and try and show you couldn't get the error try to what was happening this is the reward that it has dragged away and where we had it was a lifestyle we eat every year

at first now out there at night have fifty head of the network show as like very frustrating was dead but with the good a telephoto lens reporters could see the towers the branch davidians residents the davidians hung banners from there in a desperate effort to communicate with the outside world we want to hire him halley says god help and we are the brown who do we tell caught between the group that we could only see a couple miles

away and federal authorities who though they were dueling news briefings every day it would clear that they were seeing us as a means to a public opinion to save or what they were doing here and now at dawn on april nineteenth hancock learn from federal sources that there were in the standoff that sin in the tanks to knock holes the branch davidian residents and pump and the tear gas and they wouldn't have to relief and almost that could be over the good or by me going to get out of their money almost all if not all of the media that had been there for a long time we do we begin with you hancock went back to her hotel room to file an early story she had cnn on the television in the background

i wished into a source of mine on in washington and he had he had an armchair men actually i was asking him a question he'd walk their smug all right they both watched in horror branch davidians has exploded into flames everybody in the world while and he the actual people pouring out of india that they were more than many people in here including more than that here's a story for the dallas morning news however the regular order at that number includes seventeen children were believed to have died in the

play is a republican watched helplessly when wal mart line we can only thing together the massive loss of life in the eye or actually believed gave you were arriving and they all violent willingly order to that's the government's version of events but it's still not clear whether the branch davidians committed suicide or if the fbi is using tear gas cause a fire looking back hancock says she feels a deep sense of failure about her own role covering the waco tragedy she's not the only one i'll wake of mine you know we'll get together and we start talking about this and there's a mixture of anger in tears about you know did i let the fbi take

advantage deny not half a car and a question i mean but the other people have a sense of having been lied to hear that the government didn't come clean with all that happened that they were at their air brushing a pretty horrific story leigh adcock says if she regrets referring to the davidians is a call to the shasta says there's plenty of blame to go around politically fbi men well it went in our fault we didn't the unit questions whether coming out and it worth it in the end and their devotion to this guy that kept them in their really downplaying how fbi action and aggressive at the aipac there are pushed the dvd and closer to crash it cemented their apocalyptic belief hancock continued to investigate the story of three years after waco and the search for answers to some of the hard questions you know

i don't believe in torture i hate the time but i think people work for that would be something like this something to explain it away philip the trouble of finding and waco and the internet as a cultural moment he continues because every time there's a confrontation read every time there is a religious group that engages in public we're behavior particularly of all you always hear about like i played with the dallas morning news for twenty years she's writing a book about like four months after the fatal fire a federal grand jury indicted rock aggression to survive the siege they were charged with aiding and abetting the

murder of fellow officers and with illegal possession of targets not aggressive and served time in federal prison all them out now they progressed join the branch davidians in nineteen eighty one and became the group's leader in nineteen eighty six before joining the branch davidians he'd been a devout the seventh day adventist his real name was born and how we called up religious studies scholar been stellar to learn more about the branch davidians their orchards and their beliefs the branch davidians are an offshoot of an offshoot of the seventh day

adventists so to get a list or older the adventists are a nineteen century new religion and said that the end the roads coming soon end they are focused on the the return of christ the app that's the appetizer turn across and some veterans are also a prophetic or their founder allan white a plan to sell for a profit of communicate with god receive direct revelation so the seventh day adventist ring that in the branch davidians as an offshoot of an offshoot inherit that they have that same tendency to expect the end of the world they're still a prophetic group there an apocalyptic group and there were groups which anyways a setting data saying years is coming out and then in the nature of instagram what does soon need to find religious terms well i mean so there still has been a problem in christian theology sense of the first century right to know paul wrote that his letters are without the crisis going back soon i that's kind of a half in the mail

well i mean some groups that dates and usually the data set a few months or a couple beers often they say we were calculated based on these are the book of replace the book of daniel that the and the roles coming that's coming in at that particular time most crucial some particular data rather they say that we expect that that the big wrap up the timetable is is reaching the endpoint based on these signs we see around us which we can interpret and that these events happening in the world of represented different verses in the bible and all that's left is for these other verses to be fulfilled and when that happens the end is coming i say that you apologized for interject a little history we love our backstory so i want to take you even farther back head injury clase the branch davidians and the adventist in a larger group of protestants who believe in the apocalypse is the most amazing thing about studying apocalyptic millennial thought america is it pretty much defines america

is defined american religion susan do you know all of that even pre contact button to christianity in particular that the puritans had at their heart the millennial vision for us publishing this came to work out on earth what was supposed to inaugurate christ returned and that became part of america's dna and if you look at the way which american religion develop there's always a strand of colonialism it's more often than not at least initially what my colleague i'm catherine wessinger would call progressive millennials and which means are expecting things to get better and better and then chris will return but there's also a funny book called catastrophic money wasn't groups to believe the end the roles when it comes to the fire and brimstone and construction and why like explain to me in physiological terms blind as fire and brimstone this is at the heart of the christian message and the basic idea within christianity has always

been for two thousand years that christ came to fix us and to fix people in to fix our planet but the job isn't fully done he has to come back to finish is the fire and brimstone fabian oh that's where i always kind of yeah asked aren't so ideologically speaking most of the fire brigade that stuff comes from the book of revelation out which is the last book in the christian bible and it describes these fierce battles describes people brought massive our deficit describes are quakes it describes fires i'd describe saying rising from a pitch in and so it's it's all right there but most mainstream christians yeah they don't deny there's the bible that is don't focus on it that's one book writer is the variant apocalyptic we weren't christians you'll get is if that's all the rich guy but now i associate many of these apocalyptic groups with charismatic leaders said and certainly david koresh seemed to be a charismatic leader can you tell us a little bit about david

koresh the leader of the branch davidians tv crew rushes is unusual for an adventure story added curse that leader because he doesn't claim to be a prophet he claims to be an interpreter but he isn't particularly charismatic interpreter he's a sort of person who's really does bible sessions for hours and hours and people would sit and listen and felix suddenly the text made sense of what members sad an extent or showed was that correction could unveil the truth of god to them in a way no one else had nearly every member who joined already had a pretty intense christian background in the bible was important to them but they by and large felt as if the bible didn't make as much sense as it should it in some ways is very typical for many christians bible study is very calm yes in most parts of the country go to a church on wednesday evening in the finals our sunday crew rash opened up the tacks to them

in a way which made it makes sense interest in his interpretation it leads him to believe that he himself is is a figure foretold and prophecy he has a particular role to serve so he is to survive you profit that sense of his nonprofit the sense of actually talking to god for help he changed his name to david corruption is deeply important for historian for the group he's a texan named david as a reference to king david wright a text the word harasser is a reference to a king cyrus who is a person and he is the first person referred to in the hebrew bible as a as a messiah or anointed one one of the things that comes out in the reporting on this at the time itself was it is the sexually predatory practices that he felt he was entitled to access to all of the

women among his followers and and again and theological times i just don't understand why that is part of the theology so these two has a look at this one has to look at it and say whoa that goes a charlatan and you say whatever he wants a city could sleepover were slick with and maybe that's true for caress you would she would say that these actually wasn't a desire he had this week russia's perspective and from the perspective of the members of the group marriage is is a distraction sachs is a distraction from the spiritual life he took it upon himself some of the other members of the group would have to do that okay so that makes sense to make yet the other part is that he felt that he was destined to have the special children who would be part of the enderle turntable that that was that was one of his one of his roles his role was the father children who would be part of sort of the christ's van heart hears it another tough question for you why were the branch davidians stockpiling

weapons i did that fit in any way with their theology or was that simply a part of a response to the sense that they were a beleaguered and harassed by an oppressive state yes and yes to be out there that the weapon it was fascinating that actually ran for what other businesses they sort of subconscious they would buy weapons they would i had some cases converted into other sorts of weapons that would convert them from semiautomatic to fully automatic but if you're in texas or nineties and they needed the firearms were were part of culture media running a ranch they needed automatic weapons to run a ranch well does anybody know what inspired a date they felt as if they had a right to have weapons as as americans and the second amendment does indeed play into though their theology which says that apocalyptic wars coming between good and evil two crescents say so

they were warehousing weapons because it was part of the geology to have lots of weapons because the war was coming but they also were housing weapons because this was part of their livelihood and they saw as as an acceptable appropriate thing to do that's very hopeful to me i i had not understood though warehousing distinction thank you wow i think if i can if i can go on a tangent on that other words these are so powerful write their home is often referred to as as a compound right there for a job as a church complex and think about what it sounds like when you say that the government is sending helicopters and tanks to besiege a compound verses the government is sending helicopters and tanks to the sea to church complex right so i think the words weezer important and this is why i don't use the word cult or use the word new religion to religion itself may not like them it's ok to think of colleges that it's okay to think that that this is not a group we approve of but i like using the word which immediately castigates do you

blame government officials or the press love for the use of this kind of terminology i do blame the press and linger when officials are plenty of tackle that and i also when i had it i can't blame that all sides of this but i think what the press did it is they were telling the truth about a group that was practicing underage sex and polygamy and it was if it were me i would have avoided language like cults are because this immediately can jury service this image of this as a banker i would just let that the readers decide for themselves the government replace a little more bling on because they should've known better there were not listened to religious studies and biblical specialists who could've said hey we know what this guy believes he believes that an apocalyptic war is coming and you to shut up with the tech you need to de escalate before you give the sky exactly what he's expecting which is the end of the world that makes sense so i pay your consulting fee right now and what would you

have told them this is years before the actual siege i would've said this is an apocalyptic group this is a group which is that in the end of the world if you were concerned that they're stockpiling weapons if you are concerned that they're engaged in illegal weapons work we're here the treasury recently attacked four hundred weapons i would suggest you approached this group the way you approach in the group which is live on a precipice a group which could be pushed easley one way or another approach them too actually the easiest and best solution would have been four for them to just execute warrants and to show up with with snoop for six people and say listen we're more were just here because there is this discharges but his weapons needed for pretty to work and we need to do an inspection here but not to show up making it look like the end the road was fine they're expecting you to be aligned with satan if they think you're calling for their guns

because if those guns are a part love there are sold for an apocalyptic battle against satan the lesson you want do is take those away now in terms of the sexual activities and you don't suddenly atf you said social workers did anybody leave their religious group oh yes yes a little left over the course of the siege i was actually was in june to me a sort of nurturing by some of the survivors who stayed inside it did survive the fire all of whom were workforce charge in federal court for the deaths of the arm of the atf agents but most of them are still true believers they really do they really get at the time believed that this was the end of the world and they were on the side of christ and of good is it fair to call this a self fulfilling prophecy i think it's fair to call self fulfilling it i don't know about the

fire and there's a big debate about whether one of the branch davidians set afire with the government sector hiring potentially whether it was an accident i can tell you theologically speaking there's no reason to think that they were suicidal but nothing that theology and so i just won't have escaped as reasons those groups and it the way they did there was nothing aggressive intelligent indicated they would do they would try to kill themselves we can say this was a self fulfilling prophecy in the sense that this was a group which expected the end of the world they expected to be martyred to fight and die on the side of good and the sight of christ against satan and evil and that is what they saw coming and that is exactly what the government played into there are their expectations and that's what ended up from their perspective csi mean it's it is a tragedy did teachers students about waco i do i do and i can see his tunes color all

sides in terms of there's no way to tell like someone who was engaged in polygamy with child brides and that is there's no way to come out of this is the democrats were western wonderful guy odd even if you're grew to see oh gee you look and think this looks risky but that being said however student paper resisted wrote i don't like these people but they didn't deserve to die i think that's really important is that one of the key lessons that you take away it is to me and it's so lot rides up an effect i have met some x pressure millions and encourage believers what we had a car and believer out who was i was away from the group when the siege began in la was often at a gun show one listener and he's been through hell in his life i don't like his theology but if the other divisions were like him i'm sure would've liked them as people and this political ally could tell is i don't like an intelligent that's not that doesn't mean we can go in with a tank and and and and attacked our house and tell us you mentioned

earlier said these kinds of apocalyptic appeals tend to flourish at certain moments in american history what was it about this moment that was so crucial to people joining this particular apocalyptic movement the branch davidians are merged out of the american cold war mind set out to see chaplains in the nineties but this is a group which had been really the forties fifties sixties seventies is when the groups would notice or informing so you write in that time period is is the cold war in texas was where they were actually assembly some of the nuclear weapons and a lot of the other arguments texas was both the place where you could see weapons coming off the assembly line it also they were aware that they were in the crosshairs of the soviet the homes sold recently texans themselves to be at the center of town infrared traffic so so this is part of the culture in the end the cold war to survive politically among

conservative theologically conservative biblically oriented christians is look at the bible look at the text look at the world around them and say i can put two and two together i see in this audience i see giant icy state of israel ice cds wars i see the oil prices i see the recession i see it rise eventually a moral authority of christian right and i can look at that book revelation in the book of daniel an parts of isaiah and i can say okay these verses are lining up over here we're progressing through the book and we all know what happens at the end at the embassy in the world and kind of making sense of something that's very sober experts label mad mutually assured destruction absolutely and in some ways this is a risk it is the very same response williams's isolation and having visions dr strangelove registration every year in some ways but that the drug is of dr strangelove as it has unveiled ahead this was what

was bizarre situation schumann's have made for ourselves and if you are a deeply believe in bible believing christians for whom they do go to the text the center of your identity and you're reading it makes sense that that's how you respond yes and i don't know if there's any more or less leave a person who reads the bulletin of atomic scientists yeah it is a tension the doomsday clock minute i think in some ways it in the same place how popular is apocalyptic thinking today ben talks with addiction has never gone away it's it's built into as i said that the dna of america but also the theology of christianity and just beneath the surface you find critically among christians who live out called the book are centered lives with day they look to the bible and they read the bible to comfort the world around them is present no the election of donald trump in some ways throws a wrench into summers' because the young did the basic idea from israel publicly oriented criticism has to get much worse for gets

better so ironically by letting someone who's friendly to a publicly weren't christians at it actually might slow down the doomsday clock on the other hand out nessen of our conservative lee phillips in search of a publicly leaning uprising christians are greatly cheering the announcement about moving the embassy and it's really easy to drizzle because i think that my hasten the timetable for the arab public battle in israel than sixty million copies of the novels in the left behind series about the coming of the anti christ have been sold to americans does that give us a sense of how many americans subscribe to this apocalyptic feel even if the sixty million people are brought tears to the end of the world's coming year sixty million people who think it's possible that the end of the world's coming and that has very real consequences for example do you fight against climate change if you think the world's can end tomorrow or next month or next year or next decade ru overly

concerned about potential nuclear war is using nuclear war is part of what four top of that revelation and maybe that's the way god wants to be apocalyptic christians in hiding what are were reading bread that are reading brags that as part of their public interest in anything can fit into the apocalypse and that happening in the world around you if you have a perspective and that was coming when you look around you can see it end they're secular and there's this rich liberal on this other veterinarians i want to i have to say as much as it is much as i support by went viral awesome i have to admit some of the viral list language which is used really apocalyptic right that's a great point i remember i was there is research i was looking at the coverage of the ozone hole back in the artist the eighties and nineties language used to describe the ozone hole was was talking about your worldwide collapse of the society's the economic system so that egg and before before we stayed wary

about ozone there was that wonderful book called the population bomb you know i am really remember or you read about which is a great example of the apocalyptic thinking on the part of environmentalists if you want to go for that reid or it rachel carson's spring very much uses the nuclear metaphor yes it's all or it's older than i want to thank you for joining us today and baxter is always a pleasure shorty thank you so much for having me thank you for the best candidate for today's you can keep the conversation going along so we thought of the episode or asks your questions about american history you'll find there's a backstory radio dot org or send an email to backstory virginia dot edu ross on facebook at twitter that extra media your job to flee to review it and apple podcast

reading of the stranger this episode backstory was produced by bridgette mccarthy nina earnest and we gathered in ramona martinez jamal know there's our technical director brian williams is a digital editor joe thompson is a researcher additional help came from sequoia <unk> partially discharge courtney's on an inherent human theme songs written by nick thorpe other music in this episode came from concerned adding to their engines off back stories produced at the virginia foundation for the humanities were proud member of the panoply podcast network major support provided by anonymous donor the national endowment for the humanities the private office at the research into a joseph cornell moral foundation and the author of fighting to get his foundations brian balogh is a professor of history at the university of virginia and authority compton professor at the miller center of public affairs ettinger says professor of the

humanities and president emeritus at the university of richmond jo ann friedman is professor of history and american studies at yale university connolly has the herbert baxter adams associate professor of history at johns hopkins university's backstory was prevent every winter for the virginia foundation for the humanities