Traditions: Ohio Heritage Fellows; 401; John Timm Interview, Part 2 of 2

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OHIO HERITAGE FELLOWS

JOHN TIMM

Q:

JOHN: Well, to be the Senior Men’s World Champion is at, at the time that I won it was the premiere competition to win. Um, truly at that point in time if you won the Senior Men’s World Championship you were considered the best Irish dancer on the planet at that point in time. So, every once in a while, when I step back and think about, you know, what that means, uh, get a little bit overwhelmed that, wow, one point in time I was really kind of good at what I do. Uh, so from that standpoint I think it’s changed over time, uh, because of River Dance and, and Lord of the Dance. I think some boys are… some of the young men, it’s harder to find, uh, it’ easier to find strong female dancers. There’s, you know, 10 female dancers to every one male dancer in the Irish dance world probably. Um, so I think in terms of, like, moving on to professional performing and dancing in River Dance, Lord of the Dance or any of these touring shows, I think there’s more of an opportunity for young men and therefore they kind of move out of the competing arena earlier than they used to do back in my day which was, I guess, one year before, uh, River Dance or Lord of the Dance came out.

Q:

JOHN: It was incredible. Just… it was incredible. Um, culmination of, you know, just a lifetime of hard work and, and torn ligaments and, you know, broken ankles and shin splints and all that kind of stuff. So, it was a little surreal. I think in the, in the moment it was less emotional because you’re caught up in trying… the competitive spirit of, of trying to win and when the scores come out that day, um, you… they give you the score of the first round and the score of the second round, score of the third round, score of the fourth round. I was always strong in the three hard shoe rounds; I was always very weak in the soft shoe round. And, I always said, uh, a friend of mine, uh, who had won the world championships from Dublin, Ireland, Tracy Taff was her name, um, she had asked me, she goes, so do you think you can win it today? I said, I do. I said, I think if I get 150 points or higher in the first round, I’m gonna win this. And, uh, the… so, you get… each judge gives a 100 for first place and 75 for second place… how the points scoring goes. So, the maximum amount of points you can get in the first round is three… in each round was 300 at the time. So, when the points started coming out and I got 275 in that first round which was two firsts and a second, um, I think at that moment I thought, oh, this might be the day. And, then the scores kept going well and kept going well and, um, the end result was just the euphoria of, I was the… when they go through the scores they go like, competitor number one, then two and then your total marks and all that and the guy was… it was either me or him and they did his score first and of course, in the moment, I think, I was like… I think I have more points than that but I didn’t know and then no one else around me was agreeing with me so I thought, oh, maybe I’m wrong. So, then when they got to my score and they announced my points as being higher than his, it was just euphoria, that, uh, I won’t say it was like a monkey jumped off my back but it was like a sense of relief that all the work I had done, all the time I’d put into this had finally paid off.

Q:

JOHN: Um, oh, it was the same as mine, I mean, just jumping up and down and, and ironically I think sometimes when you celebrate something like that you’re in a group and you jump around and you look for somebody to hug and everybody is hugging each other and you don’t have anybody… you don’t have anyone to hug. Uh, you know, I think my dad might have been the first person I hugged, um, and, uh, and, you know, he said to me, he goes, I thought the proudest moment of my life was when I walked into the, uh, Olympic stadium for the first time. He goes, I’m more proud today than I was then. So, uh, that was always neat but I remember just giving Ann just like an incredible embrace and just… we did it, we did it, finally, finally got it done.

Q:

JOHN: Um, it’s extremely difficult. Um, because one, you have to have a great performance and then two, there’s so many variables that you don’t control. Who’s judging that day? Um, are they gonna like your style? Are they gonna like your version of Irish dancing? Um, are they gonna be completely honest and not looking out for… whenever anything is judged, you know, you wonder, are they looking out for the people they’re more comfortable with, the people they have more, uh, experience with, you know, like, does a judge from Ireland who sees kids dance in Ireland all the time and know that they do well, feel more comfortable placing that kid over a kid from North America that they’ve never seen before. So, you just never know with, with all the different variables and, um, you put the work, you put the time into it, um, you put the energy into it and then you can have a crappy day, right? Um, just everything… I feel like there’s so many different things that have to line up to make it happen and, um, from that standpoint I think it’s incredibly difficult to, to make that happen and I’m sometimes, uh, I think every year that I go to the world championships and I see people dance great and that kid should win and they don’t or this kid I think should win and they don’t. I get more and more amazed at the fact that I did it at some point in time.

Q:

JOHN: I was the first person from Ohio to win, um, I think I was only the second or third from North America to win the Senior Men’s World Championships. Michael Flatly was the first from mid-

America to win a world championship and then Tim O’Hare was the second win and I believe I was the third to win from… from mid-America. Um, there had been some world championship titles won before me but I think in that Senior Men’s category, um, I was like the third North American to ever win that.

Q:

JOHN: First from Ohio.

Q:

JOHN: Um, travelling and performing was, uh, kind of the way Irish dancing, like, went around the world for years. The Chieftains were, I think a phenomenal source of exposure to, uh, exposing not just Irish music but Irish dancing. Often times they had a dance, um, travelling around and performing with them, um, and it was just a great outlet to share your talents and, and I think it… Irish dancing was always… because of the percussive nature of it, it’s never a, uh, when a dancer came out it was never a lull in what was happening in the show, it was always like this incredible jolt of energy that came out and it’s like a sprint and you go, go, go, go, go, go, go and then it’s over, you know. It, it was always just such a powerful moment and I think bands finally latched onto to that where they could, uh, The Chieftains were great at doing that where they could play some more kind of, um, more artistic pieces and sandwich that in between with a little dance number and the audience, I think the best thing you can do from an artistic standpoint is take the audience on this journey of kind of up and down and up and down all throughout your performance. Um, I loved performing, you know, I just loved… I loved being in front of the crowd but I loved sharing my talents, um, I loved hitting the floor, I loved making the sounds, loved making the music, um, uh, adding that element to the music. I had some great opportunities, I performed with The Chieftains, um, Mick Maloney who was a, um, you know, a National Endowment, National Heritage Fellowship, uh, award winner, he gave me some great opportunities to perform with the Greenfields of America through the years. Joni Madden and Cherish the Ladies, I mean, she is a living legend in Irish music and I don’t get to perform with them very much anymore, um, part of that is having kids and moving on to a different phase of your life, uh, but I’ve travelled the world performing with them and it was just phenomenal and I think for one thing for was, uh, at that stage where I was finishing my, uh, competing career and River Dance was first starting and I got an offer to join River Dance in their initial, uh, their initial stage production, I had already been teaching with Ann Richens for about four or five years so I was already invested into those kids dancing, um, and I was.. I had the opportunity to perform and travel with, with all these different bands. So, I felt like I had the best of both worlds. I didn’t want to leave the teaching behind because I loved that to only perform, um, and I didn’t want to just teach and not perform so I had this distinct opportunity of where I could meld the two together and, uh, you know, thanks to those different bands, Joni Madden and Cherish Ladies and Mick Maloney and Greenfields of America, um, I even did some per… uh, a little performing with The Chieftains here and there when they were in town. Uh, it just gave me an opportunity to do kind of the best of both worlds and I loved every minute of it.

Q:

JOHN: The Celtic Foot Force, yes.

Q:

JOHN: We’re a little bit on hiatus right now. I don’t do too much anymore. Uh, I’m so involved with the dance school that it’s hard to spend extra time on, on that. Um, actually how that evolved was, again, it was part of like, River Dance and Lord of the Dance. Used to be, years ago that a band would want just me to come dance with them and then River Dance came out and it was like, oh, Michael Flatly and Gene Butler together, what a dynamic, do you have a partner you could bring? Um, and my wife and I would, you know, travel around and perform together and that was great and then… and then people were like, well, what about, do you have another four people, there could be six of you dancing? Uh, and so that’s kind of how that evolved to kind of start my… the Celtic Foot Force Troupe, um, and it was important to me when I was trying to think of a name, um, I wanted to kind of tie in what we do, Irish Celtic with what we do, our feet, um, and the forceful nature of percussive dancing. So, the name just kind of came to me pretty naturally but, uh, we got some great opportunities to travel and perform, um, but as a performer and an administrator and a choreographer it’s a lot of different hats to juggle all at the same time. So, um, and then being a parent it just kind of… that’s definitely something that has kind of fallen off to the wayside a little bit these days but I would definitely love to have the opportunity to kind of resurrect that part of my career at some point in time.

Q:

JOHN: I think I appreciated my relationship with Ann Richens so much, um, and what dancing brought to me, like, the, the importance of learning that hard work, commitment and dedication and attention to detail are the things that separate the best from the rest and doing that in Irish dancing kind of laid a foundation for me in all aspects of my life. And, that was really important to me and that relationship with Ann and I kind of feel like that was a big part of it was I kind of wanted to be able to have the influence on other young people growing up like Ann had on me. And, as I first started teaching with her it became very aware to me very quickly that, one, I love doing it but two, I was pretty good at it and three, kids were motivated by my input and what I had to say to them and so… and then that kind of drove me to, to want to do it even more. Um, it was just all kind of… there was never anything forced about it. It always felt really natural to me to move into that aspect of the, the teaching arena, um, and again, that continues to this day. I just, you know, I love, um, I love working with every dancer. Um, not just… I think some dancers… some dance teachers in this day and age get caught up in the competitive area and they only care about the kids that are gonna win the titles that bring them the recognition as a teacher and I think that’s just so not what teaching and mentoring and working with kids is about, it’s about finding that diamond in the rough or finding that kid that, that really is struggling and continuing to work with them and giving them the encouragement and the confidence that they can do it and seeing them get on stage if it’s in front of their parents at a recital or if it’s at a nursing home performance or if it’s in a dance competition and see them do the best they can do regardless of results. I often say to our dancers, you know, I would love to go to these competitions and see you guys dance and see you be happy with your results and then have somebody come up to the microphone and say, so we are not gonna be giving out any awards, no metals, no trophy’s today, is everyone happy with how they danced? That’s what it should be about.

Q:

JOHN: Um, I’m finding it more difficult as I get older, to teach. There’s no doubt about that. Um, I think my style of teaching has always been to demonstrate. I love putting my shoes on, I love showing the kids the movements, doing it with ‘em, um, and trying to do it louder than they do which forces them to try to do it louder than I’m doing it. I think that’s how you motivate people. Um, so teaching is always come fairly easy to me, um, I’ve… I’ve enjoyed that. I think the hardest thing is, is the amount of hours, like it’s just constant, which is great because we have so many people interested in dancing, um, and we have so many, uh, students that want our time and want our energy, um, I think the hardest part is having the time and energy for all the classes that we teach and I have to remind myself every day that I’m coming into the dance studio that you gotta deliver your best every single day, these kids need your best so that they can become your best. And, I would say, that’s the hardest thing for me as I get a little bit older and changing my dance teaching style to where, you know, I can’t demonstrate as much. I often say to the kids, you better… you better watch it this time cause I’ve only got one in me today, so you better… you better watch this time and learn this time cause I’m not gonna be able to do it 25 times anymore. Um, so it’s kind of… it’s… again, it’s an evolving artform and I think it’s evolving for me as a teacher too where, um, you know, having to teach through my voice and through my instruction as much as my demonstration, uh, has really becoming more important and will only become even more important as we move forward and I get, unfortunately older.

Q:

JOHN: There are a lot of kids that dance with… that are Irish or their parents are Irish or their parents are Irish or English or, um, you know, like my story in terms of I wasn’t Irish but I came from… my mom came from the area. Um, but I think it’s changed with the result of River Dance and Lord of the Dance, it was… it used to be that you Irish dance because you’re mom or dad immigrated from Ireland or your grandparents were from Ireland and it was some sort of link, there was some sort of connection. Um, River Dance and Lord of the Dance made it just kind of a generalized dance form, like tap, jazz, ballet, modern dance, um, and you have people who have no Irish blood in them whatsoever. Really had no, uh, interest in the Irish music or culture, they saw River Dance and they were turned on by the music, by the dance and it opened that door to experiencing that culture for them and it is, uh, a melting pot of who does Irish dancing these days.

Q:

JOHN: Yeah, that was, uh, that was a fun time, that was great, that was a great experience and we were great partners. Um, we were great teaching partners. We were, um, uh, you know, like, it was a good kind of good cop, bad cop kind of way that you could get through to everyone. Um, and sometimes the role reversed. Like, Ann was a very disciplinarian and she was a tiny woman who was just a huge personality and you dare not do what she… not do what she told you to do, you better do it that way. Um, so often times I was the good copy trying to, you know, no she believes in you, that’s why she’s being tough on you and likewise sometimes it… that role reversed. Um, and it probably changed more as the, as the years went on and Ann gave me more, um, authority in terms of what the kids were doing, more artistic kind of control over that, um, that was something that kind of evolved, um, as I began teaching with her and then as I began creating the material and then as our kids… our dancers started to have more and more success, that creative control over the steps and making up the material eventually rolled over to me versus… versus her and, uh, she embraced that and she was never threatened by that. Uh, I never got the idea… the feeling that she was threatened by that. Um, and I certainly had never had any thought of going out and, you know, teaching my own school and being in competition with Ann cause she was like a second mother to me, it was, um, seemed natural that, uh, we were together from day one that we would be together to the end. Um, it was a highlight of my life and my career to have the opportunity to learn from her, um, to have her, you know, mentor me, um, to be a friend, to teach with her and then to know that, that she valued my, uh, ability and talents and my opinion, um, just was, uh, a highlight… will always be a highlight of my career.

Q:

JOHN: Um, choreography is, uh, it’s probably the one thing that I love more than any other aspect of my job. I love making up steps, I love making up routines. In general, the way it works in Irish dance avenues is you make up material, you make up steps, you make up dances and you give ‘em to a level of dancers within you class. So, I’m not… it’s not like I’m making up a… it’s not like I have 20 dancers in my top class and I’m making up an individual routine for each one of them. Um, I’m, you know, in general you have your dance material that you’re gonna have your dancers perform for that year and they perform that material. Sometimes you’ll tweak it, this dancer might do this movement better than that movement or sometimes you do have to go on to something different because it just doesn’t work out stylistically for someone. Um, but the choreographing of material is really still my favorite part of the job. That, that kind of… the creative aspect of it. The teaching part of it is one thing and then throughout the course of the year you’ve taught that material and you’re continuing to work on it, work on it, work on it, work on it, um, each year when I get to kind of make up new steps that’s when I kind of like am re… kind of re-energized in my craft and, and what we do. So, it still is probably my most favorite thing to do. Um, and in saying that it’s probably the most stressful thing to do because we have a summer dance camp where I’m one of the few dance teachers in North America that actually makes up their own dance material. Um, most people will bring in a dance teacher from Ireland or England or someone who’s touring in a show and they’ll make up all the steps and set ‘em on the dancers. Um, this is still something I love to do and something I’m good at. Um, so I still like to do that but each summer when it comes time to kind of make up all the material for the next dance year, I do find that to be probably the most stressful time of my year because I get overwhelmed with feeling like, my dancers success over the next year hinges upon the material that I’m able to come up with and set on them at this point in time. Um, now the good thing about doing it myself is as we’re working, if something isn’t working out, I can just make something else up. Everyone else is kind of stuck with the material they’ve been given, the steps they’ve been taught, um, but in our instance I’m able to kind of like, constantly tweak and, and change things around a bit.

Q:

JOHN: We have had, um, tremendous success, uh, throughout the years as, as an Irish dance school. You know, really one of the more successful Irish dance schools in North America. There were some years that we, we came back from the world championships with more metals than anyone else in, um, in North America, but, um, again, I don’t always try to place the emphasis on results because those results are the opinions of those judges that are sitting there. I, I worry more about watching my dancer dance and dude, I think your dancing was beautiful Irish dancing, that’s more important to me than anything else. Um, we have had… we’ve had, you know, 50 plus, uh, regional champions. Um, we’ve had 20 some North American championships, we’ve had multiple All Ireland champions and we’ve even had, uh, world champion and I believe at that point in time, um, Michael Holland was a student of ours and he won the Senior Men’s World Championship. I think it was in 2012, um, not a hundred percent on the year, um, but at that point in time I think we were the first teacher who was a Senior Men’s World Champion to have trained a Senior Men’s World Champion. So, both of our names are on that, uh, on that trophy in perpetuity. So, that’s a… that’s a nice little, uh, thing to think back on for the two of us.

Q:

JOHN: Uh, that was exhilarating moment because he was a kid who had, again, danced and probably deserved to win a world championship long before he actually won it. Um, but again, it’s, it’s judged and its different opinions. So, when that day finally came, you know, it was just… for me it was unfortunate that it came after Ann Richens had passed, um, but, uh, you know, I often think back to that day and, uh, I know that she had the best seat in the house for that day and there was no one celebrating more, uh, for our success than she was. So, uh, it was, uh, it was definitely a highlight… one of the highlights of my teaching career I’ll say that for sure.

Q:

JOHN: Um, we think it’s really important to be involved in your community to share what you do with, um, with everyone around. Um, and it’s not just in terms of advertising for our dance school or what we do, it’s just sharing what we love to do. I, I think everyone should be exposed to Irish dancing at some point in time cause I think it’s such a unique and beautiful form of dance. So, in each of our cities where we teach, um, we’ll do dance outs and performances all around the area whether it be Irish festivals that are in the area, um, the Dublin Irish Festival, of course, is a huge draw for us here in the Columbus area. Um, but we’ll do, I mean, we will do hundreds of shows a year at local libraries and schools, um, and nursing homes and those types of performances are where the young kids get the experience and the confidence to take their skills and their talents on stage and present them in front of people and I often say, um, to parents as they’re putting their… their children in Irish dancing that, you’re not really just getting them involved in Irish dancing and learning the skill of Irish dancing, they’re learning life skills, they’re gonna learn… they’re gonna learn to get in front of people and have the confidence to not only display their talents but talk to people. When your… when I find that when Irish dancers get to high school and they have to give speeches it is no big deal for them, they’ve been in front of an audience, they know how to talk, they know… they know how to handle their nerves, um, in any given situation. So, uh, from that standpoint, you know, dancing around the community and travelling, performing is very, very important for us.

Q:

JOHN: I hope when dancers are done with their dance career having danced with us that, uh, they understand the value of hard work, dedication, uh, commitment to excellence, attention to detail, um, I hope that they learned that those are skills that separate the best from the rest in anything you do in live and I think those… if they can… I often talk to kids about thinking about their, um, thinking about what we’re teaching in Irish dancing in the whole scheme of their life in the relationships they have, in their other sports activities they might do, um, in any other activity they’re involved in that they can take that, that, that focus on, again, dedication, commitment to excellence, attention to detail, um, I think those are value that sometimes when you play sports those values are not always instilled in you. It’s about scoring, it’s about outscoring the other team. For me, I hope it’s not about, in the end, it’s not about the medals or the trophies or the titles that they win but it’s about, uh, having learned skills that are gonna transfer to every other aspect of their life.

Q:

JOHN: Uh, the importance of what we do in keeping Irish dance alive, um, I just think from a basic standpoint of the beauty of the artform, um, I think it has to continue, it has to evolve… the next generation has to be able to… has to be here for them to be able to see it. That’s just my personal opinion because it has meant so much to me. Um, I think in any art I think it’s incredibly important in any artform that there are people who focus on being able to pass that tradition along because I think you can get caught up in your own life or your own business, uh, whether it be making music or, or whatever and you’re… you’re so… you’re so focused on your own thing, creating your own stuff and performing your own stuff that you forget when you’re gone, is there a next generation that you have inspired to then pass that on to then another generation. And, uh, to me that’s like… that’s the big thing in Irish dancing for me is about knowing that hopefully I’m inspiring young people to want to become Irish dance teachers in the end and want to be able to pass this tradition on as Ann taught me and inspired me to be a dance teacher and hopefully I’m doing the same. And I have a good number of people who are, you know, dance teachers, um, and, and to watch them, to watch their success, you know, it’s not just my owner dancers succeeding in Irish dancing when kids that I taught are succeeding as teachers, you know, I can sit back and, and say, ah, this is in good hands as we move forward.

Q:

JOHN: Um, I… my, my children do love to dance so I think it would be only natural that I would hope that they would want to do that in the end. Um, they, they both have other ideas right now. So, I don’t know if that will happen in the end, um, but of course, I would love nothing more than my own children to eventually love Irish dancing as much as I do that they want to, um, you know, follow in my footsteps. In saying that, um, I was never forced to dance. I was never forced into, um, you know, you need to do this, you need to… my dad was an Olympian, he didn’t force me to be a bob sledder, well, there would have been no bob sledding around in Dayton, Ohio but, um, I was… I was able to find my own path and I hope… I think I hope as a parent that more so than hoping that they follow in my footsteps and want to teach Irish dancing that I encourage them to follow their own path and find whatever they love and no matter what it is they love that they, um, they do that with enthusiasm and energy and dedication and attention to detail that it will take to be successful, of course, if that’s… and, and if that’s in running an Irish dance school in the end, I think that would be fantastic.

Q:

JOHN: That was an award, um, that actually I had mentioned a student of mine, Michael Holland had won the World… Senior Men’s World Championship, um, and I don’t know that might have been before he won the world championships. He was acknowledged as, uh, you know, a scholar, um, uh, in the… in the arts in some way and with that as he received that award, they also award each of the, the teachers of those individual artists as well. So, that, that, that particular award was definitely really tied into he… his presidential, uh, scholar of the arts award.

Q:

JOHN: The future of Irish dance. Um, is hopefully more of the same but not in a bad way, um, not in terms of more of the same as the status quo but, uh, more as, as more people have Irish dance because of River Dance and Lord of the Dance they then hopefully have had a great experience doing that. And, then they have their own children and usually when people have their own kids, they tend to put them into activities that they loved as kids growing up. So, from that standpoint I hope it’s, it’s more of the same in terms of the continued growth and interest in Irish dancing and River Dance is celebrating 25 years and they’ve revamped their show and they’re coming back to, um, uh, Radio City Music Hall on Broadway and hopefully that will inspire a whole other generation of Irish dancers. Um, I think from what I see as a dance teacher and the newer generation of, of Irish dance teachers coming up, um, and the style of dancing, I think you’re gonna see a real change in what traditional Irish dancing is because as I said before, I think Irish dancing is a living artform, it evolves a lot but as people have got more involved in, um, artistic endeavors with collaborations with flamenco dancers and tap dancers and so forth, I believe that Irish dancing is somewhat evolving and becoming some of the traditions we were used to like, the crossing over, um, and the arms not moving at all. I have a feeling that some of those things might evolve away from that rigidity of Irish dancing because of these influences from other dance forms and, uh, at this point in time I don’t know whether that’s great or, or I don’t know that’s it’s bad, I think it’s, again it’s just a function of what Irish dancing is, which I think is great. I think when something stays static and is always exactly the same then it doesn’t grow and when it doesn’t grow it eventually dies.

Q:

JOHN: What do I hope about my legacy going forward? Um, I try not to think about it because I think… when I think about legacy, I think about it being the end of something. So, I try not to think about it too much but I do hope that, uh, when people look back on me, they see someone who was an accomplished competitor in Irish dancing. Um, who accomplished what he did by working extremely hard and being extremely dedicated, um, and paying attention to the details and from a teaching aspect I hope they can see someone who had compassion for every person who walked into my dance studio, um, whether you were a champion or whether you were someone who just wanted to come to dance one day a week and learn how to Irish dance, um, that I tried to instill a love or a passion of Irish dance into you. Um, I think that’s the most important thing to me is that when people look back on me they say, he did it the right way, uh, he did it with honesty and integrity and character, um, and I think those things will mean the most for me in the end.

Q:

JOHN: Yeah, it’s… I use that word… I use that word passion a lot, um, I don’t think you can do anything basically 24 hours a day if you’re not passionate for it and I have to catch myself and remind myself when we get through busy times and I’m really tired, um, and I have to remind myself that I’m doing this because I love to do this, you might be tired but you still love doing this. My wife has to remind me every once in a while, I’m human just like anyone else. Um, I think passion drives the world and it drives any successful person. Um, I, I think if you do something without passion, you’re never really gonna be great at what you do. You might accomplish something but you’re not gonna do it with the same level of commitment and the same level of excellence as a person who was 100 percent passionate about what they do.

ROOM TONE

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