Traditions: Ohio Heritage Fellows; 401; John Timm Interview, Part 1 of 2

THINKTV

OHIO HERITAGE FELLOWS

JOHN TIMM

Q:

JOHN: My name is John Tim. J-o-h-n- T-i-m-m.

Q:

JOHN: First title would I guess be, 1993 World Champion of Irish Dancing. Um, I’m a TCRG which is the Gaelic, uh, the Irish word for certified instructor of Irish dancing and ADCRG which is the letters to certify that you’re an adjudicator of Irish dancing.

Q:

JOHN: Um, probably John Timm, TCRG, ADCRG then World Champion.

Q:

JOHN: I was born in Kettering, Ohio. So, I grew up in Dayton. Um, my childhood was adventurous and, and interesting. I grew up with a mother who was a Scottish immigrant she moved from Scotland when she was about 17 years old. Um, and my father was a U.S. Olympian. He was, uh, the 1968 U.S. Men’s Bobsled Team. And, uh, our life was just fantastic in Dayton, Ohio. Um, uh, I grew up with a sister who was three years older than me and, uh, we just did all the typical things you do as kids, the only thing that made us, like, particularly unique was that we were involved in Irish dancing.

ROOM TONE

Q:

JOHN: I was about three and a half I think is how the story goes that, um, I took my first Irish dance lesson. Uh, as I said before, my mother was from Scotland. She wanted to put my sister and I in Scottish dancing, uh, she couldn’t find a Scottish dance instructor in Dayton but she found an Irish dance instructor and she thought, well, close enough, what the heck we’ll give it a shot. And, she started my sister and at the time there weren’t, like, Irish dancing wasn’t popular enough that you had your own kind of designated Irish dance studio. So, we danced in a church basement hall, the parents and the siblings just kind of hung around and I was very active young, young boy. So, um, and Richens who was the dance teacher for my sister, uh, said to me at one point in time, why don’t you just put him in line with here… put him in line with the rest of the kids and I’ll straighten him up. (LAUGHING) And, that’s the (LAUGHING) that’s the end result is, you know, I started taking a class, I’m sure I didn’t learn much those first few years, um, but I learned to stay in line, I learned to listen to Ann, I learned to follow instruction and, uh, slowly but surely I fell in love with Irish dancing.

Q:

JOHN: Um, Ann, uh, grew up in Dublin, Ireland. She danced for, uh, Matthew Mallady who was, uh, taught a dance school called Inachalco over there and it was one of the most prominent, world renowned, uh, Irish dance studios, uh, for, you know, 50 years of Irish dancing. Um, she immigrated over here, uh, actually and she worked at the Irish Embassy in, um, in Washington, D.C. where she met her husband who was in the military and they moved back to Dayton, Ohio and, uh, she taught dancing and, uh, she was great at it, you know. Uh, she was, uh, I think one of the things I’ll always remember about Ann and appreciate the most was she expected greatness, being good wasn’t good enough, you know. There was more in there, if you were good, you could be better and if you were better, you could be great. And, she would constantly push and push and push to bring the best out of you. Um, you know, and I worry in this day and age that sometimes everyone thrives on the positive reinforcement and alw… always being told how great they were and I often think, would I have ever really won a world championship has… had I been told that what I was doing was good enough. So, Ann, uh, when I started dancing, you know, three and half that just kind of evolved. And, uh, obviously she was an influence in my life. She was like a second mother to me, um, as she was for probably everyone that she, she taught. Um, we travelled, as a family she came with us, we travelled to events and then in 1989 when I was graduating from high school, that summer Ann was already teaching in… she was teaching in Dayton, she was teaching in St. Louis and she was teaching in Columbus here. And, I graduated from high school and I was looking for a, you know, part time job in the summer and she said, listen, why don’t you… why don’t you come on board and apprentice with me to, to learn how to, uh, be an Irish dance teacher? I could use the help in Columbus. So, I started coming to Columbus with her in 1989 and, uh, apprenticed under her and mentored under her as not just as a dancer but then as a dance teacher and kind of basically learned everything I know about not only Irish dancing as a dancer but as a teacher from Ann Richens.

Q:

JOHN: I guess she saw potential, you know. Um, or she saw the potential to be great, um, at, at my craft. Um, and she pushed for that and, you know, I’ll always be forever grateful for that. I know as a kid I had some glaring flaws as a dancer, um, but I had some things that were like just came really natural to me. I had natural rhythm, I had excellent posture, um, I could learn quickly and I could retain information. Uh, I probably had what would be considered a fatal flaw in Irish dancing and that is I had turned in feet. My toes turned in and in Irish dancing all my dancers will tell you, what’s the number one… what’s the most important thing? I tell ‘em all the time, feet, turn out, you gotta turn out your feet. So, that’s something I struggled with all my life but she didn’t give up on me on that, you know. She knew that if we keep working on it, it’ll get better, it’ll get better, you can improve on that and she must have seen that, um, that constant improvement cause she never gave up on me and, uh, I remember one time as a, as a young kid, uh, at a dance competition there was an adjudicator who, um, at the time there were maybe four or five boys in the competition and they judged us, he judged us and then he pulled us all up to the table and started handing out the awards, you know, fourth place and third place and second place and first place and then I was the only kid left standing there and I had nothing. And, I was like, well, what about me? And, he looked at me and he said, you should find another hobby, you’ll never be a good Irish dancer with feet like that. And, I just never gave up, you know. And, and Ann was like, don’t, don’t let that discourage you, you can do this, you can get those feet turned out, you can keep working on those and improve, you have so many, uh, positives going for you in your dancing and she was right. With, with hard work and even up till the end I had to continue to work on my turn out and force my turn out, you know, as I say to all my dancers nowadays, you just gotta work to get those feet turned out. Constant improvement.

Q:

JOHN: Did I ever have that ah ha moment as a dancer? That’s a… I have to think back to that. I remember having an ah ha moment in Ann’s basement learning a step where all of a sudden, the rhythm really clicked with me and from that point on, I remember rhythm being very easy for me to get and understand. Um, in terms of being whether or not I could eventually win a world championship, I think I always thought I could but I thought it was a pipe dream and then when I went to the world championships in Cork, Ireland I think it was in 1990 and, uh, the points started coming out and I got third place and it was my first time on the podium. It was like, that’s when it really clicked that, oh wait a minute, maybe I really can do this. Um, and from that point forward then it became a little bit more of a focus and then, uh, senior year in high school I quit playing soccer because I thought I maybe had one more year of soccer or maybe a career dancing if I wanted to perform, teach, all that kind of stuff. So, and then, then the focus really came in, it was all about dancing, um, and I took off as a… as a competitor from that point and won the nationals a couple times, um, and then, you know, won the world championships in ’93. But I think when I started teaching with Ann Richens in 1989 that summer, I think as soon as I walked into the dance studio and started demonstrating for kids and passing along what I knew about Irish dancing, that clicked instantly. I… that was, uh, a no brainer to me that this is what I’m called to do, to pass this on as Ann passed along to me.

Q:

JOHN: The one thing that drew me to Irish dance more than anything else cause, of course, I was put in Irish dance, right, but I, I took to it, I enjoyed it. Um, I loved it. I fell in love with Irish dance when I got my first pair of hard shoes and I was able to put those shoes on and make noise with my feet. I just… it was just, boom, the lightbulb just went off in my head and I fell in love with it and oh… that’s… that’s been my… that’s been my calling, that’s been my strength as a dancer, that’s been my strength as a teacher, the rhythm, the percussive nature of Irish dance, um, that is… that was the one thing that really drew… drew me to Irish dancing and kept me interested in it more than anything else. And, the beautiful thing about Irish dancing I think is, I call it a living artform because it’s constantly evolving. It’s a traditional artform in how it’s based and how it’s rooted but it’s constantly evolving and being able to take those rhythmic and, uh, stylistic elements from tap and clogging and flamenco and be able to kind of pour those into what is the Irish style of dancing, um, keeps it fresh and keeps it unique and is definitely one of the things that continues to make me love what we do so much.

Q:

JOHN: The history of Irish dancing is… I wish I could say I was a historian of, of the sport. I think I’m a historian of like, as I grew up in dancing and who were, you know, the people that helped evolve Irish dancing to where it is today, um, in terms of the history of Irish dancing, I mean, it’s just something that’s been done in their culture for hundreds and hundreds of years. Um, I think kids growing up in Ireland, um, it was part of their curriculum, they learned how to do the basic fundamentals of your side step and your sevens and your threes and your skipping, um, and they became their, their social dances in Ireland. And, those… you learned that as part of your curriculum in school and then as Irish dancing grew from a competitive standpoint is when Irish dancing like really evolved because competition well, it brings out the worst in people but it, it, it’s what makes things kind of grow and expand and evolve. And, so once their became these real prominent Irish dance schools and people were competing, um, it continued to evolve and just hit like a whole other level of, uh, of market, uh, of people to dance and then in Ireland, I’m not as familiar with the whole exact history years from them but then a lot of these people who danced like Ann Richens age and even before her immigrated to the United States with those fundamental skills in Irish, Irish music and Irish dance and then there were people… you know, America’s been built on this kind of melting of, of different nationalities and people have always been incredibly proud of who the are and where they came from. So, it was only natural for these people to immigrate to the United States with knowledge of Irish dancing and then want to continue to teach and pass that on and if they do that well and they inspire people then those people want to continue to teach and pass it along as well and that’s how this artform got to where it is today and it’s far different… if you were to look at… if you were to look on YouTube about Irish dancing like, I’ve been able to find some videos on YouTube from like the 1920’s and 1930’s, the style of dance, that traditional style is completely different than what you see in competitive Irish dancing these days. Um, because a competition makes things evolve. For instance, I was talking earlier about turn out, turn out being really important. That’s just something that has evolved over the, the competition channels. Years ago, when people were dancing more traditionally turn out wasn’t as important, crossing your feet over, crossing your legs over wasn’t as important. So, if you looked at a traditional dance today compared to what it was years ago, it’s done stylistically quite different because it has evolved through our competition channels in today’s day and age of Irish dancing.

Q:

JOHN: Irish dancing to me is… to me is the most beautiful form of dance there is, obviously, I love it. Um, there’s multiple elements to it. Uh, there’s soft shoe dancing which is very light and elegant and graceful where you do a lot of work up on your toe work, up on your toes, um, a lot of leaping around, nice straight long front legs, um, flexibility, kicking up and then the whole other aspect is a complete opposite is the hard shoe dancing where you put those shoes on and a lot of that dancing tends to be a little bit lower to the ground but it’s extremely percussive. And I always say, you know, if you close your eyes and, and listen to the dancing that should be like the drums to the music and you don’t often hear drumming in a lot of the traditional music, you do in Irish music cause they have a, uh, a bodhran which is the traditional Irish drum. Uh, but when we dance in Irish dancing competitions, we dance to… we dance to usually piano, fiddle, accordion and it’s the dancer’s feet that become the percussion for the music. So, I think that’s what really sets Irish dancing apart is the percussive nature of it and the fact that it’s not just percussive, you can change shoes and you can dance in a soft shoe format as well and there’s different styles of soft shoe dancing, there’s reels and jigs and slip jigs, uh, which are traditionally done by the girls and the hard shoe dances are, um, you know, treble jigs and horn pipes and set dances that are choreographed to specific pieces of music. Um, it really is a unique form of dance.

Q:

JOHN: The arms not being in used… not being used in Irish dance is really a… an interesting question because I don’t think there’s a real answer to it. There’s a lot of theories. Um, there’s some theories that say, it was the churches influence on dance that they felt like moving the arms was too provocative but they allowed dancing to exist if they held their arms down and made it less provocative. Um, there are theories of, um, the Irish being, you know, invaded by the British and, um, them having parties in their houses and the British didn’t want them to be, um, partying and celebrating and enjoying themselves so they would dance with their arms down so that no one would… as they walked by the streets they couldn’t tell whether or not they were dancing. There’s just tons of these theories. I don’t really know what is right. I do know from a competitive standpoint, again, it has become a major factor in what you’re judged on. So, the… just like turn out, traditionally years ago turn out was not a big thing, now it’s super important. I think the arms being much more rigid, um, is, is really kind of a more modern competitive thing to Irish dancing.

Q:

JOHN: I was involved in every aspect. I was…I was involved in teams, um, and that could range from just with one partner, um, to, uh, three hands, four hands, eight hands, 16 people dancing together and competing. Um, and we, you know, we did from local performances to national competitions to dancing, you know, our eight hand and four hand teams at the world championships. Uh, but Irish dancing I think in particular as I’ve grown up, the group aspect is a big part of it but the solo dancing is what really kind of drives it for people. So, I was always a solo dancer along with being part of an ensemble.

Q:

JOHN: Winning in competitions, it’s such a… it’s such a tricky thing because this is art, this is art, so what you’re being judged on might be different in one person’s eyes than somebody’s… somebody else’s eyes. So, what important to me, uh, you and I might look at the same piece of artwork on… hanging on a wall and I might say I love that piece of artwork cause I love their brushstrokes and you might say, I hate their brushstrokes. It might be the exact same thing but I like it and you don’t. Um, I find that that is really what happens in Irish dancing, I have to remind people all the time that this is not a sport, you’re not… it’s not who can dance for the longest or who can dance the fastest, you are displaying your art for the judges and they may like it and they may not. You just hope that you’re getting people who are… have enough integrity that they’re willing to judge for what they see and what they like, um, but some of the things that I look for in a judge are the basics, the fundamentals are really, really important to me. Um, that turn out and part of that I, I think because as a kid that I was, you know, I was marked down for that so I think I understand the importance of that. The posture being upright and steady all the time and the arms being held to the side, uh, the foot placement. It’s like your dancing on a balance beam in Irish dancing all the time. One foot is almost always in front of the other, um, and that’s a real tricky thing and it’s hard to maintain your core and maintain your posture and maintain your balance when you’re always one foot in front of the other and I think that’s one of the hardest things about Irish dancing, makes it, uh, you know, a very unique artform is that you don’t use your arms, you don’t throw your arms out to help with your balance, right? You throw your arms out, you’re getting marks deducted as a dancer. Um, and then I think the last thing you look at as a judge is the choreography. What the dancer is doing cause the dancer actually has no control over what they’re doing, it’s their teacher that has created that material or that has hired a choreographer to come in and teach them that material and they’re to dance it. So, you know, as a judge, when I judge, you know, I try not say, well, I like that step better than that step. I really like to look at what they’re doing and how they’re doing it versus what they’re doing because again, that’s what the dancer controls, they control their performance of their piece of art that they’ve been given.

Q:

JOHN: How much work does it take to win? A lot. Let me tell you. Um, the last year that I was dancing, uh, the previous year before I won the world championship, I placed third and I thought I had a good chance to win and I got like very few marks that were first or second. So, we… Ann was driving me back to the airport, she was staying for another two weeks with her family in Ireland and she said to me, I just don’t know what we have to do. And, I… you know, she said, you danced your best and still came up short. And, I said, well, I guess my best isn’t good enough, I guess I have to get better. As simple as that. And, uh, I just over the next year continued, continued to work and I’d say over that last year it was honestly like, it sounds ridiculous, sometimes four to six hours a day of working on my dancing and I was a student at Wright State University in Dayton and luckily I had my teachers support, I had my friends support, um, Wright State allowed me which they don’t usually allow, access to the dance studios when they weren’t being used so that I could, you know, practice there during my down times, access to the gyms that the athletic teams would be using, um, because I was doing something that they thought would if I achieved something would bring the university, um, some credibility, you know, from that standpoint. So, it just took attention to perfection. And, the only way you can get perfection is to do it over and over and over and over again until it’s not that you do it so much until you get it right, it’s that you do it so often you do it to the point where you can’t never get it wrong. And, that was what I went for at the end and, uh, eventually it paid off.

Q: