Folsom prison, where people die like flies / Warren Wells interviewed by Mark Schwartz

We believe that every man woman and child on the face of the planet Earth. Has the right. To the highest. Best. And the most beautiful by. The technology. And human knowledge and wisdom is able to produce. Period. Eldridge Cleaver affidavit number two shootout in Oakland April 1 nine hundred sixty eight on the night of April 6th. The car I was driving was being followed by two carloads of panthers and I was on my way to David Hilliard's house above my head the windshield of my car shattered and I looked behind me. I shouted to the brothers scatter Let's get out of here. As we started to cross one of the Panthers Warren Wells got hit and let out an agonized yelp of pain. The result of the shooting. Little Bobby Hutton shot dead Eldridge Cleaver a fugitive Warren Wells locked in Folsom Prison warrant three years ago. Prisoners in Folsom issued a manifesto concerning prison conditions. Has there been any

substantial change in the prisoners demands that were issued then and today there's been a lot of change. You know there hasn't been any of the demands of the prisoners. But there's better changes and on the part of. The officials psychology. They have TVs snaffles I mean you say Oh. Yes about the end of it right there you know you just the fact they can say to a prison Committee where were they when they watch TV now is a misleading thing because that's all you do you get a lot of gas that you know. That might be involved mentally in something progressive. Positive form that it did become hooked on the whole when television said you know and where before that you might have been able to do mount some type resistance. Terms of strike you know whatever do's don't want to do this now feel of losing these little small pretty hair they think is so big because you have a lot of people here that have done it in

15 years right here in the television is just like a little freedom to take and take and fantasize with the people they see on TV and be free from it. They don't want to lose a day and they never had nothing else you know to have you know this person is out in the middle of nowhere originally and there's hardly any major population around especially no substantial black population near bar. How do you think this affects what goes on inside as opposed to a prison like San Quentin. It's near San Francisco. You don't ever hear Folsom of the new ones. People Dallek flag as this is the most. Feared Penitentiary in the country in terms of custody. They got all your rejects from. All San Quentin and all Saturday hear you because you custodial rejects that were rejected in these other visible prisons that are visible in the news media and they're all here. And if if you ever get a chance to go and see a yard 2000 you know it's a sad

of of two softball fields. They're small Yeah. Granite walls. Machine gun is everywhere around the top of the building. Complete oppression. You know repression and the whole atmosphere in the penitentiary is one of the graveyard is no life. There's nothing to do you know. And they have a lot of young young men here now and the prison was designed for three and for that society has completely abandoned you know to life in prison you know. Because of you political changes a day. They have a lot of a lot of us you know this is you know I consider myself you know I don't feel like sometimes. So they got to sit up in here looking crazy. And as a result of this successful middle of manipulation can be scored through a lot of changes you know against each other and

they even go so far as making it impossible for themselves to ever get out of prison you know that bargain themselves down in travel gang wars inside are going to be for eagles to egotistical purposes and status symbols you know I want to talk a little bit about you know much more bread and brothers of this nature read here that have. Contributed all that they have could on the street you know and I now live down in the penitentiary. Because certain elements in the community attended a back snow field to deal with too radical and they wouldn't fit in modern political programs you know. And because of this man a. Deuce is locked up and for way I just got through doing three years just in the Senate. AC You don't hear bad news like you do in saying what is the most maximum security state. There's quite a few other brothers over there you were in the AC.

Oh yeah. Ever since August 1970 when a demonstration is saying where James Chris and Jack and dad anyway there's problems did community if they desire and if they had a concern or true concern not just a slogan concerned you know a bunch of rhetoric saying well I'm with the prisoners I want to you know protest demonstrate for the present you know of the prisoners movement shit you know because that's not going to do that and you know would fill up some little space in some newspaper you know. Give something for the Department of Corrections to lie to the people about misleading you know about how to change in things and how to break it down to population and they don't close saying when and six months later it's back up to 20 some thousand and they go have to keep saying which all of us already knew but the people did. They believe that Bush about clothes

saying that they believe Bush about the death penalty is going home. You know but in way down all of that cursed me you know I have been taught and preaches in in a way. A prayer in about fifteen other blacks that I would even you know consider doing something for. A leg up in this foyer just missed. They don't have no help you don't have no support out of the whole group in Aylmer's to most public brother in there and nothing is being or has ever been seated in his behalf by any of the major groups out there because of. His case was supposed to be controversy and contradictions with certain individuals on the street and about ideology in what should be done. You know and as a result he lost his wife. Mama that Chiel. Was eight months pregnant. He's in the penitentiary.

You know people at playing the political games and things are to travel very hard to realize what's real and what's not real because if you a fan assassinate you relate and deal with a problem you know it you're doing some good but what if you do it out there calling yourself a revolutionary an activist whatever you know and you come to find that you have been dealing with the real problem is still exist. One day that real problems go hunt you know it's gone bad here its bad time not just for black folks rave about it is get sis to start dealing with the real issues real lad sickening issues and none of them honorable or noble they are dirty issues you got to be dealt with you know and if you DO YOU ARE NOW it's cool if you don't deal with Misty or crew because it's those averse to snaggle never we don't have a choice you know and I will struggle on this level is only one level will

out strip now. It's only one level we're allowed to exist on a survival and as to want it put us in a calm back to the wall. You know it's a small element like that and I don't care what jumps off back down as trees we can't seem to get no support from nobody. Why do you think that's really true. Especially the people who used to have support. When things get serious when life is in you know death is involved. The future that you secretly dream about while you've been talking about your life to the struggle you know people change people make a lot of excuses and create a secret avenue to get around dealing with the problem and end up being your friend. Anyway you know what you know with this today or ten years from now we still got the same problem we still get people value material more they do humanity. We still live in a country that is

prepared to. Kill up to three more million people here in Southeast Asia. Staring at a figure about out of their feeling their fear because when they kill they don't blow everything up. You know Saudi will blow up something else. But you still got the same issues that she was howling about screaming about protest and not demonstrating about the same things Joe IV's dad for John and dad for James dad for Christmas Chad Nolan dad for another two brothers with him dad. In fact City all day and made all the niggers this did because people didn't want to have another jumped up and got to howl and screaming Death to the freedom and blah blah blah. People dat front the last of the freedoms of did after deferrals goal in the scene it was only one way to go. You know pick that thing train yourself and have to deal. With this problem by any means necessary. Sit down and shut up and quit talking you know. Quit making things hard on a few of us because it's always going to be of you with us Don't be emotional.

Yes going to a whole lot more feeling than we do think you. Understand and don't get lost. They don't get lost in the shuffle. You know I'd like to maybe turn to. What you think of Shell's tactics. What do you think of. The support and lack of support or need for support in his case. I think. Didn't have no protective thing. Everything he did he did out of sheer necessity. He had no choice. Two brothers going Dad. Either way it go if you win the case because he's on the team go he know it. And they have to spin me in dollars they don't try to convict you know by the support you get a lot of professional political revolution there is that even fair you know mentality is enormously introduces a crew you know they came late to it you know if you get a whole bunch you hunted out a word to

say you know and things that make a lot of sense means you know that I'm out of to quote you know and I think they can relate to know what it is just as just Dad and me and he's trying to live as long as he can and he's Chinese you know show somebody else along with his little struggle personal struggle you know what it is what it's all about what he'll do you know now and one man would do to anybody anybody stands in the way you know the day I stand in you know it's just goes back to the same reason why did people turn their backs on the most extreme wish which I would consider the most dedicated element in recent organizations where they turn their backs on the lad lad I've been a pretty good life's too with the licenses you know support a few individuals get arrested you know come and help but no organizational support you know. Same reason why did nobody support met in the

same reason. Miss Chivas things are going to happen around saying when six you know Jackie and for some proposition you got organizations trying to get to Egads too good to be identified with the group. He got another organization trying to get Jennifer out with a group just like nothing I mean just like nobody really gives a fuck a damn about what's really going on. You know about the lack. About the whole issue and the issues they'll have put the whole thing jumped after her. Livin in Dad and whether we would just go back and keep it all down and I don't know you know. So do you think we should continue. People should continue to organize around individual struggles in prison or is that something that was going to have to end up in a petty situation no matter what you do. Look. I think black people better try to do some for you know do some quick fast in a hurry.

You know don't wait to get to the quick gesture to make him a hero. Don't wait till he's did to make him somebody is important. You know they did but it had to start doing some about this right now you know. And if it takes of dealing with some of the elements that's keeping us from doing this we have to deal with it to myself I'm not even interested in. Mixer come in here read now would we waste money with slapping a spin on it because I got to rebalance Mao. Man I got my own brothers and sisters dead and be in the back keeping me in a pinch. You know I've got to break that barrier I gotta get some love and some respect for me and for you know until we can deal with anything we want to deal with you know we cast this dream about a white male in fascism and he's protecting his interests he's protected his program you know. Now you mention the gang situation in falls how structures are going to have exactly what is the problem you're up against from

inside the gains they've been here for years day just not been to just drink government been negated because other things have taken place other things were important to a lot of blacks and some whites you know and some and some brown. The liberation of people's minds was very important you know and it still is you know sold another thing where nothing made it was all the time happening doos would get killed from one click because they'd be cliques have been fighting for years you know and appear different in the Mafia. But it didn't become a big thing until the news media decided to make it a big thing to take attention of the other problems that still exist they are still sitting here. Delegate they get worse because they are creating a hell of a thing that is you know they feeding people legal interests in by how they feed the ego you know create monsters on radio you know I've heard the word monster mentioned on a radio bad news commentator referring to a man who had

been killed my ass's been healed and he's gay and he's a monster. More shit is going to be reprisals in the next day they kill each other left last Saturday because it was all over the newspapers motherfuckers chess was all out of a we sure is doing something you know is just same thing that they have been doing for years we just get it smartly and get to know you know you get do this CG in power why don't we. Physical power I'm talking about. Your personal power and you know he laid out at night. Damn you know I'm going to pee in but I'm runnin so I got him very upset you know. As was happening in these low things ready it will be dealt with right in here this punitive you a nobody had down the street don't do nothing about it but run your mouth and try to figure out what it is all a day in the solving of problems is gone be read out here only xian and these go Where is being you know

ever since it began. These things happen all the time in prison. These things are going to continue to happen in prisons and the nerve pressure is applied to the real problems and not the surface problems not the problems in the good for some dude grab ahold to and make a hero out of himself would present Elian you know get a deal or would a god damn thing you know nothing. He's not dealing with none of the people he's got a real problem you know in a town you get people coming out on parole. He's not the one who's got a real problem because he's a whole bunch of was doing go get no parole unless somebody do some for you. But do you think people on the outside should be doing it they shouldn't be organizing fully around prisoners union or organizing propaganda that doesn't really mean anything is just rhetorical. What kind of things should be should be happening outside. They got enough you know between San Francisco Berkeley and Oakland they got enough you must have how many about a million organizations of all variation you know they should be able to

get want to to only give that is get enough information. Call certain people you know that there are a lot of these adjustments. You know it's not all the obvious walking all these male lives in these in these polls. Say for instance out again that they can make a document they can document the case histories you know as to why in opinion what's going to happen and they have their attorneys too. You know they could take and put on these cases and seriously make righteous efforts to get them out opinion and make the big situations no you know. To confront these fissures with them only legitimate sat you know what a lawyer would fab ASIS law if that's what it takes. Don't wait till the guys is still desperate. He's you know he's let me share you know your assumption and did you want to do some for again. You know when you want to keep him out of the game has changed. You know what I'm talking about.

Well thousands of people organize for example around Bobby Seale and literally millions of people around the world. Are supporting after these people were when their caves were freed are without even going to prison. Neither went to prison. It's still the same as the words it's still the same situation outside. So you know I mean I'm talking about organizing around individual. Show dogs. But see this is what happened with him. Those did know was going on and. Are dealing with it. I guessed it. They've made themselves believe that the way they are dealing with it is the best way you know and they could be too wrong because there's nobody at this and they really want to best way you know people really concerned. They really gave a damn You know and will really inform. They will let those people know that they were doing it the right way. You know and I imagine when the time comes it'll have problems that exist. They're going to be dealt with better people lead.

To Problems exist when you know this is an asterisk or be. Talking about it in. Slander people and mudslinging. You know on the radio waves and all adding on a chain that you know it's just going to confuse people more. You know I think that the mood of the majority of people they consider themselves to be radicals won't change in this country from one level or another. It's not serious enough for them to. To make. Certain commitments made and you know I mean I think you know that is possible. Like OK say for meet me face as an example I spit all of my life. You know in direct conflict with with the authorities you know all of you know and I've got bullet holes and scars all over my body and I got you you know locked up in a hole. You know to show for my resistance.

So my business my business not you know the the depth and the commitment of my bitterness is couldn't possibly compare to yours may you know because you have an feel to do we have fealty sold you know leg for me to go out in in rashes taps and you know maim people and carry bombs and they want to blow up things. I couldn't expect you to feel the same way as I do me. You know because you haven't you know faced things the way I have you haven't seen them do they have a filter with my heart you know. You have lost every friend you ever had you know the last boy parole board peers made I was told. My attitude had never changed. I had become you know kind wise that I could be good for a long time. Really I haven't changed that is not a whole you know whole so dazed and sad myself. And they're dated no special note that there was no relationship between me

and a certain organization in Oakland California that they feel had made some positive changes in the show that I didn't want to have anything to do with nothing positive so I don't know why it did me good. I give these right you mean me to do something you know and somebody that they do you relate to you know because out of six people I was wrist with me. There's only three of us left. What up just came to the penitentiary. He ain't got but 18 months and some night he's good at his nails ball out and the whole thing is yes mister. I've got a bad manatee and must clean town. I'm doing the best they consider that I've ever done because I spit on nobody and I'm sure I will continue to try to do is if they let me put it whether the ball is going to give me a date and I think it's going to pin down.

How do you feel I'm a Leo when I get out here and I think that's already a step so I don't have too much faith. You know if people want to help me and they can contact you know they can kind of take people in the lead people of the doughty know to distil people that care and interested you know to seek information you know and you know I did get something I don't know but I don't have no answers man I'm not normal nor You know you're a tissue anatomy and I'm just I'm just old fella trying to do the best I can you know situation that I'm Mia and I consider a lot of hands I get very angry and I say I don't give a damn about people normal you know. But I can't help me I've got kids cause if I don't I care about myself you know because if they don't make me and I'm stunned we continue on with I'm going to continuously be helpless and if they don't do something you know we don't do somewhat our salesman all the same. None of us will be

able to do that. You know just like Bobby may know. He's not go where nobody nobody go where no major legs you know with no. You know enough support where it's going to mean something man until the people are ready for him to. I don't give a damn what he's doing you know oppressor has no right you know pressed down to his back. He's on order from the beginning. They had nothing for him to say. There's nothing to talk about. They know negotiating to be done. Get your boot off my neck on one task not to lay it off and don't tell me how to do it was Don't give me no suggestions about how to snatch your leg off. Because I know you Diane because you want to own a car ox and don't tell me because I say take your foot off our neck but I'm raisins

because you raise this motherfucker you are the one who's killing mean God and don't tell me not to say Mohawk are on the wrong to begin with. I know I want to talk a little bit about just how people in the main line in Folsom relate to people in the U.S. will put I don't know if you going to be able to understand Israel but. I've been out of the hole two months three months. And I left my family and they're you know a group of brothers that I lived with. For a long period of time a deep stream painful condition. You know we loved each other deeply you know and our commitments in

this in terms of supporting each other. And when I came out of there. I'm doing the hardest time I ever did in my life right now because I'm around people. You know they devised a way of showing their responsibility. Schenley connections have been a solidarity with. The people that have done things for they are in a bear now you know because they realize these things except to know before to do something and like I say it is the same problem in here as it is on the streets a lot of people just don't want to turn to to really commit in sales where you put in a whole. Bunch of reasons many a major reason is cause me man I just don't go along with no problem where they are not nowhere Longwood No it's not because I had one hell of a revolutionary education and read a whole bunch of books just because I don't dig you know I never liked I don't know me don't I don't give a

damn who is with this film I mean you know I don't like Normie any Hans's 10:10 a.m. could ever be condemning me tell me I'm a criminal. You know I'm not in the penitentiary for stealing a loaf of bread. Snatch an old lady's purse you know I mean the British because. People that were kicking me in air sat down the street was progs men and academia were you know with a little help from my brother as we go you know I felt that we could eliminate or do away with him. Get him away from a committee want to come round and round us anymore you know. The incident did get me locked up Ian Folsom was on a mass demonstration is saying I quit in 1970. It was in a racial thing. 2000 if you go to work in the. Head of gas do with the police and they came up with dad did it have some kind of secret power in our game as all

these people. You know by myself solely sit me and a few others at the label ringleaders to Folsom adjustments and which is enough to keep you locked down for a long embrace still starts you know. Describe the full so I just said. Have you seen any part of the insanity scrum. It's in the middle of it appeared to me in the city. And it's surrounded by granite three gun towers above a direct B. Little small concrete yards which you call the axis as you know the election galleries if you shoot a bullet down there you know to nowhere bullets go all go you know we can ricochet 15 minutes you know and. There's nothing only ours to do is just

you know draw a few balls out and play handball against a concrete wall. You know you've got to be asking who. Is sad building. Is wide of the you know the Watergate it's got all kind of. Working devices all will be old and you know you can be on the floor the floor separated you know the concrete floor in that over two years and even beyond here the police talking about on the first tee of the stick if they got in a car will they forget and leave it alone as just how sensitive the building is sound you know it is sound your conversations you know nothing is private you know you can take it on the toilet. You can't do nothing without him knowing it. You know. This is a small sail. You know with a toilet in a b c if I have a loan you know. And

that's the end of it Minister. You know when you're locked up in there unless he goes to the yard and your lack of only yards you can't do what you want to Romeo a journey to guns in a physical context shots fired and shots fired it could mean your life. One it made it 10 is laugh out loud out of a sale. You know every time you step daddy you said you got to get naked and shield is your body. You know so after a few months you become very uninhibited you stand me in performing these. T-strips programmed to strip things for you know. So it does a lot for for people who want to you know be liberated terribly badly because you know you have no way of once you get out of there you know. They visit each a glass cubicle separated from your visit a little hole in that bulletproof glass while the rest of the visitors on the mainland so that you know when Tate was orbiting was our biggest

problem was did a man in a foursome when Jesperson a hare's is correspondence visits you know I mean that's a problem period in prison you know but it's intensified and just because to staff in the castle in the police days and they're. Good to keep you. They made lead you people from the streets to police not males but good job to make sure dead certain people with certain political backgrounds hair you know have the minimum amount of communication with the street as they possibly can. So therefore correspondence forms policies or visits are changed when it comes to these people you know they take into a lot of changes not only understand how you get in this state court case you know they've got it you caught me you know so was this is a semester situation but

I mean like everything in a pretty messed me and so you know. One another you know but to me my whole thing lazily it just seems less wary about it I care about is that you know I keep talking about it in the prep because the little brother needs here. We need somebody to stand up and do something for him but I know we saying this is not going to change. Nobody has not already committed themselves to him or to share to the saying is what I'm saying or make him do nothing that they don't want to do you know if you can run down what drama's case long about when he got placed in prison after helping his Bunchy Carter dad. Who was in control of the party and in the last sentence Syria Janet is also with. If your animal was a brother he could pick the party of NO.

Keep it together you know two brothers ex-military man trained by this government to keel trained in the arts of warfare you know counterinsurgency warfare. He's very skilled you know. So he put his skills gave his skills to the people. And so quite naturally the only very lumpen type brother you know why I drank in so called who lived in a neighborhood related to type of brother. So the people that were around him were very. Serious about whatever he was going to do you know there was going to do something he was going to do it you know. So after that did it last and to shoot at a piece of tech here quote as an 8. Or 16 18 hour was held aloft you know. Imagine policies were in a part of you know. Certain people that day and this is kind of you know you got to do something about these mehad me and you know either relate to him or don't relate to him you know what's happening is you can relate to the desire and.

The photo of the frustration you know in the helplessness of a brother like that or you can't relate to it and if you can't relate to it is because you yourself in your heart I haven't made that could mean that deep you are alienated from these type of people you know you have a fear of these type of people because you have no solidarity with the bridge or from the party and you make a really become really good but they still get in shoot outs with the police and they still die. You see in the still getting cases in the cases that they got when they were here and you're better you know they still are going to trial and case but because you've decided they don't deserve to be you know in your clicker in your book your party you know they don't get the same legal counsel they get public defenders they don't get the same support because you've used the media to poison the whole thing you know. They get regular to court when they come to

the potentially to the prison officials. Stanley Hayden 100 miles before you get here because they know what he can smell you know he comes he comes I'm a bad nigger and we get 10000 of them already and we get is made bad mayor Joines Jackson we get to kill him he goes along. So when he gets here they get the justness in a door open waiting to lock him up. They don't need no reason the public is saying lock him up. Killie it don't make a living or do nothing. We don't care about him. We didn't support him. He's not a popular thing out here you know in here in sat in sat in prison is the same as it is on the streets except for his is is more. Is is more compressed me and you know. It is. It's magnified. The same problems and the same thing. Change is that you go into the streets. We go into the same days and here on

what is is more. Because it's so small and you get such extreme people in here you know this is this is different. Is did you deal with it differently you know like something that you might get a sore backs in that all political cliches are easier than the news media on the streets you know to me is here for any you know you've got and also talk in any respect whatsoever. It's just words. Sane people in here me and have no respect they don't place no value on a word a word don't mean nothing. Man only wanted me to get him when is you free. You know all the mother was denied knowledge they only relate to you know. People I date is going to have to accept a fake me and. They can only learn so much about these places and be out there and really understand you know you got to be in the air with it you know it's a whole different culture a whole different set of THEIR you deriving from the same values that they have today they become

more intense in here. You know capitalism out there you know in capitalism in cigarettes it's just different you know a dollar bill $10 bill and he is worth is much one hundred dollar bill on the street you know three or four grains heroin is enough to have a bloodbath over any you know. A visit you know from a man having a visit from his woman could mean his life you know in this place for a lot of things people can do at the olives sisters you know. Always talk about. The right radical females they seem to. Flock around these British black convicts. You know they complain about it but they have left in me and he's been attention you know. For a lot of reasons

black women have to survive that they are different of the way what radical women do. Most white Read it would ever come from good backgrounds. They can always slip back get a few hours start there and there they collected together where they support each other you know. A black man with a lot of key is a normie you know survival depends on that moment where she did it for However she does it with his revolutionary reactionaries you get a feed of normally running up to Folsom is a hard thing. You know. This takes a lot of energy coming to negate going through in changes you know sitting down between the glass and some steel all across the table. You know it is a lot of emotional stress behind it you know. Nothing is modern in here. The most minor thing you get is the big car being the pieces you know. Some of the biggest new gates and the ace and stone you know. New electric

doors and bars but the penitentiary is outdated man it's not a pretty if they were even chatter to language or rehabilitate nobody here this is just this is where they throw all the garbage you know up until recently this would be too old near here to just waste their lives. They've you know but now put younger me this on me you know they hope to break your spirit. You know me and speared too in his work and out of respect I see a lot of people that I have a lot of respect for that I've lost it all now you know. I told you before that I've been in prison all my life but I know senior night just before 9/11 and I've been a heavy politician in California except seniors CNA never see that. You know I had it was the mid leg just before you know you know what I've seen I've seen nothing like this before. I've never seen him do the things that I've

seen it done to the people he's here you know where he's working he and me you know leave a way out. We always believe that creates some kind of you know police to laughed about me at all. You know I can't do nothing say nothing and nobody can do nothing because of the count because you know you have to wear more back. County seen you do something when you do the police to police he shoots you and like you best into. Hero to get gas to have their minds be changed. You know they have lost a great deal of themselves in these walls manage that you have to worry about you know do. You know. Nightsticks I mean you were a pack of cigarettes because he figures if you don't he's going to loosen up and ask what is boiled down to this just how much he's got to live for. It's just how much you don't give a damn about life you

know and. You know. He's just a bad situation man. It takes all of the energy 24 hours a day to deal with it go. Here we are right you know I until we come out it is the way I came into it you know. By no holes and that means that I'm some sick to me. I mean I'm not going to let nobody do nothing if I think somebody is going to some medium or do some door and quit. So I'm in the same day. I just might. You might read about me killing somebody over next you know because that's the way he is man you know. Just the way it is here. The programmable press in this petition is so great man that they have such a free hand so they can do anything they want to hear. Nobody outside is going to stand in the way because very few people are even aware for some other DNA didn't they know that there's a Folsom Prison. There's very few people know anything about what it is all about. What is it what you know what pred was doing you know what kind of me and

you know what is it all about. Don't nobody know you know until somebody you know starts exposing Folsom like they did say Quinn is going stay the same. You know saying when is the program's about seeing on television and read it in the papers just like I do some kind of weekly programs some weekly You know detective stories some about saying it don't even mean it in nomo they didn't even they're saying quit now so what you know he was up here every day but you never seen one in Folsom. Never I don't care what happens. You know front gate they might have appreciated for a good ness that but something is going to have to be done to bring the community closer to the to a lot of these lives and it will be loud you know because red Nattie nobody can really feel freedom in here nobody can feel.

People outside you know only at a distance through 11 11 you know. Hollywood Hills You know and I don't know me you get me talking to me or I don't have a way as his main ideas here to try to deal with certain ground that I have no answers no positive programs that's going to change everything in here by listening to my program well maybe there's a laugh I don't know what. If I ever get that pretty tree you know trees is going to be a leg being coming out of another one you know because I've been living this kind of life so long my prince was of the same you know the real thing is did did did did make war and war of steel in me you know. But then there's a whole lot of things to get word here before I got here you know and I've been a very emotional. Person and you know all my life my emotions have been you know.

You can say that out field to hold out no doubt ever thought you know he's my man I use my heart a lot and I don't think i'm would be too much to wait when I get out here I'm a lot more calculated and callous now you know. My skin is a little bit bigger. I still feel the same way but I know how to deal with it. I know how to keep people from seeing it because people take advantage of those feelings. And I don't want. To be No. More of a new hero. You know. I have to be it for the group of people that want to use me as one. Those who believe that they can suffer now and get there without a doubt. When you go before the throng. Of the lower. Down on that elderly sincere when you just didn't know.

I I I. And maybe those who make it across wouldn't want things in or. Out of myself when I get there. Because if you try. To put me in a home of my AS. I'm one of their. Science and beautiful people then organize a Black Panther Party and talks. I what kind of prison or cultural. Groups are there in Folsom There's several in San Quentin but what what's it like here.

There's none here. The only group they have is not because your group was Alcoholics Anonymous This is. All about radio television you said you have TVs that are here somewhere. Well if a inmate can afford $100 portable television set he can buy a one you know and I will run some down to you about debt. It's a room with a door warden's brotherly love. Oh it's. A record radio son piano shop in Folsom and he has a contract with the company for more old Motorola TVs are five years old. He gets some you know grocery basket two hundred sets for $25 a piece of sales and for a hundred twenty five dollars here so. The only industries that they have Year is. You know they have page numbers you know nine cents hour is the highest you know. Nine stone so a guy might be able to make man dollars to intreat thousand dollars a month

and if if you don't buy cigarettes and stuff to eat off the canteen you can save you money and one day you get a TV you know. Yes a lot of people's goals they have a program he have good juvenile visits but I never see no regular go out. I'm married I've got a wife San Francisco and I got nabbed months clean and I fit the criteria whatever to have apply for Defiance something that it wasn't the only rules but they did find something that they did disqualifies me as being eligible. You know all the while wife I have a wife you know I've been down dad to five years and we definitely need to get together yesterday and the date he said they come up with some reason why I can go out and do nothing but they got certain inmates to do fit the criteria you know they do active and it's one family. A week. You know a weekend is the way to go. So I don't like when it when they want when they want to rebut. Charges that

Folsom is does that me other. They throw these things out and well we've got a conduit you visit program we watch television they got raided they got TVs in their sales they got they could have they could have could you Evy you know they say all these things where were they happening you know the guys this guy TVs man at a gathering of watched enough to have somebody with $100 activists and you know most of these guys in here because the rich you know because they was trying to steal somebody's DiLeo some sales some dope to get some money to live up to whatever you know about newspapers what kind of stuff comes in and other reading material. We can get the regular city newspapers and we can get stuff like The Sun reporter Dave allowed vis Ramos coming in you know this is often own thing at times to live every day. Coming in at times they wanted nothing to me. You know like when a pasties allow it. You know with similes and the courts

make decisions about correspondence the planted public corrections in what material you can hand it doesn't always don't never seen apply to Folsom. They don't evoke either they don't never give a damn about the ruins are just the excluded Folsom from the rule and I don't know you know. But the officials of Folsom a very belligerent man I don't give a damn what no federal court they know or let you read something logy having. Irregardless to the rule they don't want you to visit somebody viewing or visit them in a room you know unless somebody you know is prepared to go to Cheney's given court autos and they can be forced to do it you know. But people have to make an effort to do least they change what kind of things do you get in the canteen. When you get cancer you can get saccharin would sack made and it says smoking bans and you

can get nicotine and that can can see getting candy you get cookies. You can get girlie magazines you know magazines it frustrates a man's mind he says of the looks at a naked woman's body came to me. You know to get magazines like that you can get novels about spies and agents. You can get it. Sardines and crackers that's what you get a guarantee. How much you want to spend. $40 a month in a price and a katydid juggles a lid that you. Damn they have to spin the majority of your life for it if you are able to get that much money from somebody out there to buy to buy you know your righteousness of necessities like you toilet articles to pay so for months writing material you know the envelopes are real expensive not a nice As a copy.

You know and. Peons and PayPal and stuff like that I do a lot of writing that I handed this is my biggest problem keeping you up something you know to pace. Can anybody right here now you have them corresponds with a bit saying they were going to change but I could write to somebody if I had a way of communicating with them ahead of time let him know what he had to do. You know yesterday the little slick move you can make to write letters write letters is not a problem to be approved just write letters visits some males. That's just a false from regulation. Yes just folds and that's the way we do it here it's not like in the earliest Tuesday or open visiting in Maryland. Powers his village on one of our books if a bookstore says the books the books will go to a committee of officials military enemy approval more not approval and we can get some good good books and a

good reading material. You know you have to person at bats and they can certainly say they have to bomb in a bookstore and have the bookstore mail you know with the bookstores sealing everything on which you get George Jackson's books for example. No they all out have but come in here but he is here is here. They don't allow to come in. That's something we always need books books the latest everything you know books dealing with changes that day you know a much needed in here. You know like if people knew certain people in these prisons you know like I did of kind of it you know it saves three or four people Warren you know knew three or four different DUIs in the MNF three or four people let's say in three or four different inmates. A variety of books which would affect a lot of people in here you know. On a small scale I don't take too much energy to do that you know. Too much organization even somebody exists since somebody looks right and let you know how much of these reading

materials get in just me so you can have stuff since it just Mr duty in Macy's. Yes we're sort of the same procedures that you have out here. But they won't allow as radical material as the real. Rowdy on the mainland in adjustments. When I was in there you know we had a run of the meal. You know Reggie there you know things by I had a couple of last books written that about. I'm ugly I could brawl you know I had to go through a lot of changes about that but I got it because they had a sister with a machine you know I don't front up at the big day they go more. More back of pitches and they do with me and see it all reading that to intelligent and Ali just to see some they don't look right you know they don't want to come here you get the run of the Miele literature you know like Frasse phenomenons books. You get Bobby seals book in Angela's book nothing but joy sticks. No I mean if his name is in any way in the

book in a siege you can't you know as poisoned you know one that you know we're not misled by him to come here. You know what about health care I mean I was reading through some of your. Federal reds and one of them was talking about refusal by Dr. 1970 to treat you for a certain thing not a medical the medical department in Folsom is the worst. Just like everything else in full is just the worst in the apartment and have a doctor Dr. Rose Dale David Roth did he's been attacked by various prison groups and politicians in California for a couple of years now but he has a lot of people has mysteriously died in the hospital and they just happen to be guys that did. Officials didn't do you know a lot of things happen to people here medically and you know they were not treated properly for like a very good kind of rare TB for over a year and you

know what. And they all and they only acknowledged the fact he had tuberculosis. Two months ago and cinemas say when for treatment after they had reached a critical stage after he had sit near Jesness and for over a year with you know anxious consistently complained of pains in his chest and a whole bunch of other things these shadow him only knew he had it but they didn't they would reveal until over a year and I don't know what's going to happen about dead brother's name is Steve Brownie column has seemingly been down nine years and for more you know. But he's not famous you know he wouldn't he wouldn't know no case that was a lot of publicity still there for all that he had to on the street know anything about a brother would do anything for me he's not identified with no popular organization you know. So there are really no outside groups that do a lot of work even with the local community Sacramento or anything like that as Prince and fall from

here. Oh no hang Nadim doing nothing here. You know I had a lot of support from Gary Astaire there but when certain political changes took place out in the land was drawn certain people said they were committed to this and went on about taking care of their you know. And certain other people chose to go another direction I been I had no you know because when I fail in this I film once out of life you know as a person and had to deal with days on the run and another man I'm talking about to be early. There has been talk of maybe going to talk a bit more about the you know I know people out there people like to know what to be a lady is I mean you know well be the bad guys in the world just a bad gas to make it hard on everybody. Killin policemen's and me you know he doing all these bad things you know you're more about you know your That's what I'm saying here more about in New York if you're right you know that's where the heart is

the heart of the other position is centered around the East Coast. I will say no you're going to see these go. They believe it or not they are in more contact. They're in contact with as many convicts and prisons in California and in doing a lot more than a lot of people in California do and they send money there right. They supply certain people and you know certain brothers and he just listens in on mainland with inspiration Oh you know you know letters and information you know things to keep a gag you know Manning you know to keep him to keep it secure and sad man so he don't feel that he's sucked in easily you know nobody cares no more. He's just seen here as the end of it you know. The black community seat in the back he sees Be more concerned with black prisoners in California than the black community in California. You know this is just my

view maybe I might be different in my view a whole lot of brothers sisters idea of doing something that I don't know about because I don't have all of you know the communication that I would like to have but. I just don't see nothing happen. I don't see nobody you know and I think that when they have demonstrations I see a majority white. See too many blacks and for Rufio nobody else you know. And when they do get involved they get it done idealistic level they come to see a black girl really you know a black hero you know. And when you start looking at people in it and it kind of takes me and you take away all his his human human qualities where his his weaknesses you know and his his his his real strengths and you still see in artificial things you make him something and see that he's not you know we are all just babies man trying to to learn how to

fight how to live and how to resist. You know we just try to learn it. There are a lot of people want to put on airs and act like we're professionals or something you know. Do you think there was a collapse of support for example after George Jackson was killed. Do you think that there was a collapse of support and you think the support was never real real to begin with come all the dead men isn't it it's like I said before I don't think it was the collapse in that in man it was the same as it was before and the only thing different when he killed Gys and certain other incidents took place. Certain people seem would do when it was man they seen what they was going to have to endure doing if they continue to run off at the mouth you know they see that eventually they was glad to do something. So they showed up. I mean either it was either these showed up and did do nothing or to shut up and in snuck off and immediately made preparations to do something. And today there's

few of them straggling around trying to do something you know and then there's others dead to saturable man I just can't relate to their backing you know. So they quit talkin head stock got to give. So I got to given where credit is due and I respect him very much for stopping all of merde of mouth when they were going to do meth and no way to run a mouse so they stopped it as good. I'm glad now we can see it the way it really is this is the way it is what we get red now. Think there's any hope of legal system. You think that appeals to higher courts will do anything with him in which he has been in question for when you lay no net Nixon appointing his hand picks appointees to the nasty Supreme Court really and picking hand-picked appointees to the California Supreme Court. So on and so forth on down the line and you go against me is the hope the legal system. You agreed to do this interview do you feel like there might be reprisals against

you because of this theory I don't know many could do that I don't think your shoot me best or think I consider reprisal put me in a hole in that and I've been you know taking to rent him in India. I don't think you don't do that to me. No way Manny they know just about what they can do with Gallic me and what they came do you know if they get killed really just says just leave me alone you know. Glad to hear you had said that to you. You've been quiet since your last parole hearing. Do you think this might affect the next parole I don't know maybe still a thing I guess the only thing I have that I can do May and the parole board is something that I don't want to have no faith in me and I don't want to have one life depended on it. They are feeling you know how to go on the field. But I'm definitely on track in see if I can get some out of them I don't know under way nobody go launch no campaign have to be good we have got to penitentiary. You know

I don't you know I couldn't see that myself launching the campaign for me in that last year from my comrade. You know I can see light of the campaign for David he and not Lashon one for for other brothers locked up like he is you know just spinning a hundred thousand dollars petitions all across the country to get one man out of jail. Yeah I see it if he was refuse a savior and he was gone changes. Change our situation crew you know but I think that people just don't relate to us man. And when I say us I don't mean just us in this British period in this country when all of us you know we can do some feature other men can do and you know for nobody. I think. Myself is glad to be allowed to kill it you know. Internal killing a lot of eliminate inside the black community before the days get straightened out I mean it might sound

crazy or. Walk to something but just be a frank and blunt man about the whole situation that's what it's going to be you know certain. I just lack certain ideals and you know in the world it will have to be eliminated certain little fucked up thoughts in disasters or have to be stubbed out in the black community any community man before we can make some real progress. I think that will eliminate ideal. He's going to live in a lot of these no fault. You know illusions it did that some of us live in and the Superflat ideas in these. Using black as a means to exploit other blacks using you know the plight of black people you know to exploit and to gain some kind of power you know I think that's going to have to be attacked man I think all of fakes funnies and for all to go be in a world of trouble pretty soon you know cause it's a lot of people can see you know

if you need to find out that is other people to see the same thing they see it too and want they still are seeing this and realize they started meeting each other they're not going to accept that Bush had two Muslim Tamil programs in them again and in favoritism and they know that this is being done out there right now. You know let me ask you one more question because it goes down. What would be your final message to people. Take a look around. I can't tell them what to do may take a look around to decide decide what you want to have to look around see what's happening. You know just to look around and you see there you have to serve. When we're there. And so we say. We believe that every man woman and child on the face of the planet Earth. Has a right. To the highest. Best.

And the most beautiful by. Technology and human knowledge and wisdom is able to produce. Period.