The irresistible force and the immovable object

Do you mean your own general out but I think that perhaps we got it some divide this otherwise it could go on for several hours. First I think we should make some estimate of what the extent of the situation on the farm laborers in labor is how many are involved and what the present conditions are and then discuss what can be done about those conditions and what your very young views are on what should be done about how many people are involved in this farm labor situation on yearly basis. Well we're about 60000 farmers in California and about five hundred eighty thousand farm workers including family workers and farmers from sort of does that include the would be the families of the workers. It does. There's usually plenty as it was unpaid family workers. I see and what is the average wage of those people as they now stand.

I know that's a difficult question because the farmer himself gets no wages except what he makes from his farming. His family generally is classed as unpaid family workers. Then you have year round Family year round employees who are steady workers. Then there are hired workers and migrant workers so the rates are all different it would be difficult to name any one rate that they are paid well at. Could we make any kind of an estimate on the migrant workers as apart from the permanently employed and the farmers themselves. Well I don't know whether Mr. Daney own father McCullough will agree with me but I would say that the migrant worker the summer time seasonal worker probably is earning anywhere from $10 a day up. This is not a true over the entire state in the Imperial Valley and along the Mexican border the rates are slightly

lower but excluding this area workers working on a seasonal piece rate or hourly basis are making from 10 to 15 to 20 dollars a day but have as anyone any knowledge of what the average yearly income would be among the migrant workers in California Mr. Daniels. I feel what I've seen figures I haven't done the research on this myself but I've seen figures the average spread around $800 a year and the first person I think Mr. Daniel will agree that this is a misleading figure because many of the people that are included in this subject are only working in agriculture for 30 to 40 days. What are the problems with me. We figured this is like the man who groaned in the narrow bridge of two feet of water. I think that's one of our basic troubles Mr. Zuckerman is that there are no agreed on set of figures that we can use as a base for the

departure. For example I certainly do not agree that $10 a day is an average as an average guy I know that in some crops pickers make more than $10 a day make more than $15 a day but for a normal average wage $10 is very very high and it exists only in certain crops under certain conditions. There would now be fighting on this yearly wage. I ain't no old Several families whose way Giant going into in quite detail over a long period of time. One family when a man and wife a Filipino couple we have works and at twenty one thousand twenty together she would help in the packing shed in the cutting shed and he was a cutter and there rose. Income for the year. Both of them together never went over 4000. Not with both of them

and they not only worked in as power goes but and they followed the rest of the crops throughout the state working together as a pair. And averaged steady work over 9 10 months each year. Some days the they would work together as long as 10 or 11 hours some days less. But from what I could get they were certainly comparable hours to other workman who would be on a steady job that is throughout the year and they grossed never over 4000. Most of the time was between thirty two hundred thirty four hundred dollars and in their their group together would be typical of the average migrant worker that he does work as high as 10 months a year or is that an unusually high average. Do they usually follow one crowd

and then another crop so that they are in fact employed during most of the year. Can anyone I'd like to group people into average groups an average higher than average low. There is. Oh there is one group who would average from 9 to 10 months work and the other group would be down below that. There are a good number of people who would get anywhere from say seven to ten months. Then of course there is. There is also the other group which averages less. Safe from by 27. And of course there are those who only work a few months. Well you know the father will call I think is on the right track in breaking the whole thing down into classifications but I think that there has to be more than two

classifications there is a substantial group of farm laborers who work the year round who are permanently employed in one capacity or another it isn't. It isn't I say substantial but it doesn't. Doesn't figure too much in the new overall percentages. It's not of course a group that works a 10 11 months a year. They have to maybe go into several states to do this. They're on the go all the time. And then of course it was the ones less than that and they go all the way down to just the people who work occasionally. Mr. Commander of the yet migrant workers what percentage approximately is domestic labor and what is foreign labor. Well there again you have a question as to who this tune you're going to classes of migrant labor there are in trust aid migrants and interstate migrants. California. In the past few years has had comparatively few

interstate domestic like once California has had mostly in cross-state that is workers who start as Father McCulloch said in the Imperial Valley and work north. As the seasons progress and. I have forgotten the exact statistics but I think that number is somewhere around one hundred and sixty thousand. And you gentlemen correct me please. Then there are or have been for the past two years approximately 80000 Mexican nationals or so of the seasonal migrant workers. I think we might be safe to say that about one third are Mexican nationals and about two thirds are either an interstate or intrastate domestic migrants. But I would like to agree with Mr. Daniel that our biggest lack and our biggest vacuum in this field is a good

statistical survey of exactly what our labor force our farm labor force consists of. We've attempted in many instances to get the federal government and the State Department employment various institutions to make such surveys but so far nothing has been forthcoming and I agree that this is a serious lack and we will never know exactly what we're talking about until such studies are made and made intelligent I might say Mr. Zuckerman that one of the first objectives of the agricultural workers organizing committee is to establish a research department that will fill this vacuum. In very short order I would like it if a few people now would give me some estimate each of you as to the actual physical conditions under which these people live in terms of food and shelter and schooling and health services who would like to begin from this. Father McCulloch.

Well this is very very good. You can find some pretty fine living conditions. I have been in two camps and into family housing provided by growers which has been excellent which would raise excellent. Then you can find conditions which are frightful but you wonder who is responsible for it. And then you have the whole range in between. If I were to make say make a general rating most of the living conditions of the agriculture workers that I have encountered has some standard to say that certainly without any hesitation.

And some I would say a limited amount. It's good very good good very good. And there's also a certain amount of very very poor house yesterday. Yes that's been my experience and tallies with that exactly. But of course this question has been dealt with very adequately It seems to me by the Senate subcommittee with Senator Williams of New Jersey as with Charlie. He has just completed the specific study in several locations in California and I don't think this report has been published yet but the reports that have been published in other parts of the country so far as we're concerned give a very adequate picture of the exact living conditions under which these migrants work. But my experience is this is the same as father because I visit a great number of caps and I see the conditions and while I have not seen more than one or two places that I

would say that's fine. I've seen some that are entirely adequate. A few. And but the vast majority of them are frightful as father the caller said Well is it completely at the discretion of the grower what sort of housing facilities are provided is there any standard that has to be met. And if so who enforces that standard. It's just a comment. Well I'd like to say before I answer that question I disagree to some extent with Mr. Daniels father McCullough. I've seen the thing from all over the state of California. And I've also seen over the past 25 years and I think for the most part the housing would not be substandard because first of all I don't know what standard. Father McCullough is using I know that and I think both of these gentlemen and Senator Williams will admit that the farm housing

in California is far better than in almost any of the other states in the United States with the possible exception of Oregon and Washington. The state of California has a farm labor housing code which sets standards and I'm certain father McCulloch didn't mean that the conditions which he encountered were not below those standards because those are subject to inspection by the state of California housing division. And if there are any deficiencies found the operator is given a chance to correct those first if they're not corrected the camps are closed down. So for the most part I find that the housing conditions of farm labor while are certainly not extravagantly lavish they are clean they're sanitary they provide the at least the minimum requirements of housing and. The other point which I wish to

make is that there have been tremendous advances in the improvement in farm labor housing in California over the past 20 years. Carey McWilliams and John Steinbeck painted a picture of abject poverty and filth and I defy anyone to find that type of housing anymore on the farms in California you can find it in the cities you can find it in every city in the state of California in the so-called slum areas. But I don't believe that you find it on the farms. The more I think this is something I just wanted to ask you the housing that you are talking about now is a grower provided housing. Yes. And not that's not private housing. How much grow are provided housing is there. Well again this is a difficult question for the year round and semi permanent employees I'd say it is almost entirely grower provided for the migrants. I'll take a rough guess

and say 50 percent right in the office where the rest of them live in trailer camps. In sum there are some. Farm labor camps that are run by various subdivisions of the state of California counties. Those were most of them in the old farm labor camps that were established I guess in the thirties and have been turned over to the various communities. Some live in the cities themselves but if they're on the outskirts of cities. In some areas families can't buy out. I don't know where else you would describe the young and then there are these sort of rural communities. But I would like to add a note if I could on this housing.

I think John is correct that many of the houses a minute rather many of the camps have been closed up. But I think this itself is indicative. I have been visiting these camps now for the past 10 years almost doing this full time and many of the camps that I have visited and got into have since been closed up. Then as far as being up to standard an inspector can come there. They are terribly short handed on inspectors. He can size up the camp before the season and things can deteriorate well before the end of the season. Then I have one other factor in mind that I saw I was reading through the industrial relations Bulletin one thousand thirty two where they had an

inspection and cleanup of the labor camps in through the San Joaquin Valley. And they showed photographs of camps that were raided Gooden camps that were made as bad camps and should be closed down and apparently things were cleaned up at this time and there was a stricter strict enforcement things brought up to standards. But then whatever the pressure was at that time it was faded away and in the beginning of these breast Seto emphasis and 10 years ago and through this period up until very recently some of these very camps that were closed down in the 30s were. Being used again in the in the 50s. So that though indeed there is a code for Rural Housing. This code may or may not be enforced.

As as perfectly as it as it is it should be. I do not ascribe this to any link with SI on the part of the inspectors. They are just far too much work and they can handle it. But then we must bear bear in mind also that there is a special or special exemptions made for rural housing so the standards are not the same as what we would consider as normal. When I speak of standards sub standard I think of what we would consider the norm of American people would consider standard housing and in some instance even the rural code would permit things which intimate details would become unacceptable standards. I think for the American people. I'd like to just counter a little bit there from actual experience. We. Have had considerable experience with housing foreign workers.

We never put foreign workers into a camp or into a any dwellings of any kind without first calling for an inspection by the Mr Ludwig and his staff. They come out they make a very adequate inspection and they're not reticent about saying what must be corrected before workers can be put in there then in that case if you will know of the brass arrows there is an additional inspection made by the Department of Labor which has in some instances higher standards even than the state of California code those standards must be met and there are periodic inspections. You made one remark father that I think is rather important and that is that sometimes the facilities deteriorate during their occupancy. All of us have had experience tremendous experience in trying to educate people who have never lived under very good living conditions to take care of what they find when they get there and what they're provided with.

And many of the things that deteriorate during that time are the result of either will for willful or an willful negligence and just poor living habits of the occupants. And it's a very large order for a farmer to even though he may provide excellent facilities in the first place to educate people keeping those premises in reasonably good condition while they are there and I think you've seen many examples. I want you but I'd like to appear as completely as you know not even this matter but the truth of the matter is I have never seen one of these places. Now what is a standard place does it include items like plumbing adequate places to bathe the not a limitation on the number of people who can sleep in one room. What is can somebody describe to me what a facility that would meet that code would include.

And well because there may be people in the audience will share my any experience of this matter. Yes they have that they have requirements for running water acquirements or salt so much room so much air space and sanitary versus sanitary facilities. I second exceptions have been made out in the delta area where thats pretty hard to get septic tanks where you can have outhouses instead of washing toilets and spending some of these instances that things have haven't been cared for and John I don't think would be any responsibility in all of the workers. So there are these there are some requirements. But you still could be within a code for instance and have bunk beds

quite close together. You could have a situation which would appear and I think any normal person is pretty crowded. And then on M this is fire the canteen tiri. You have men who've been worked eight 10 maybe sometimes longer hours. And they're very tired. They come in in a group in a crowd and they packed dirt in and they they are exhausted. They don't have it about them to to go about and do the clean up. And that may be necessary to keep the camp in shape. I think that many times due to deterioration of the camp is not just that the men have not taken care of it

but that they were not provided men janitors somebody who could keep the place up. I think to expect a crowd of men who are exhausted who are jammed in very close quarters to maintain those places and maintain a sanitary facilities and maintaining all causes clean up to standard would I think be expecting exceptional from them. I don't think that our average American I don't think the American who's in the soldier would would do this and have somebody on KP duty or something like that. Anyone anything to say about the public health services in relation to the maggot workers and to the schooling conditions to Daniel. Well I hear a guy and I think the thing is within the limits of their capacity to do a pretty good job. But there do have limits

the number of inspectors the. The emphasis can be placed upon these services is not so such as to really do a lift job a good job and that is the responsibility of the state that is not possible to the state and it's a responsibility of the state and that the state could make much more use of federal facilities the state of Colorado for example does the state of Oregon and Washington. On educational matters of public health matters it's far better than the than the standard some of the activities in California but let me say this about something Mr. Zuckerman said earlier. This argument of people not appreciating and people permitting things to deteriorate. This is old as the study is sociology. I can remember many years ago. Don't give people parks they tear up the bettors they don't appreciate it I have had agreed you know very little towns in the south where when you would deplore the living conditions well these

people you give them a bath tub they'll just fill up with coal. White people will go under under the kind of pressures. And as Father McCullough's pointed out there's just the sheer weariness of the work. But people when there are no insiders and when there is no appreciation. And this is a terrible thing when there is absolutely no appreciation of what they do or what they want to do. What do you work what where is your use of trying to maintain any status at all. The thing goes together once you good people you treat people with respect. And want you treat them with dignity and once you give them an economic base upon which to live a good life they'll show their appreciation by it as everybody else has done throughout all of history by appreciations of their surroundings. Well I gather that the immediate problem in the valley is the organization of the farm laborers into some sort of union set up and that the AFL

CIO is in gauged in attempting to organize these people. And I imagine that there are widely varying views at this table as to whether or not that should be done. I would like very much if at first we could in again get a little bit of factual background. Are there any figures on how many people are now within the bracket of the Union. No there will be no figures as to exact membership at this time. For the very simple reason that we're going to campaign and it's a better campaign. There have been a great many efforts made to discover where we are strong where we're weak. All I can say is that we we have an organization of dues paying members that stretch from Bakersfield in the south all the way up through Yuba City and Marysville in the north. With ramifications off to both

sides. We have I would say eight branch offices that are staffed we have a staff of organizers. We have a large number of stores and the stores are being trained. We have meetings every night all over the area. We are attracting new members every day. We are engaging in collective bargaining which has made a real change in the economics of this whole situation we have raised wages. We have given people a little bit more incentive. And as a result we have attracted a great many domestic workers who have not engaged in agriculture work for a number of years because of the conditions under which they were forced to work. And these people are not coming back. There are a third in San Joaquin County there are 30 Vesper sorrows this year than there were last year at this time. And these jobs have been filled by domestic people. Things are definitely on the march this this campaign you know is one of the most

successful in the 18 months of its existence. One of the most successful organizing campaigns in the history of the American labor movement. Let's ask let's ask Mr. Zuckerman about the other side of the coin of the new pressures on the on the farm right in the past 10 years there's been a press more than alarming and practically disastrous drop in net farm income I think by about a third in 10 years is not right Mr. Quinn That's correct. The farmer's income has dropped far below the forty seven to forty nine average whereas the cost of the things that the farmer buys has gone up almost 50 percent. This of course includes the late fee ploys now. I hope we're not going to get into it. Thought of argument I don't agree with what Mr. Daniel is the results of their operations here in California. I don't think that

they have been successful in any instance in collective bargaining. I don't know of a single instance where a grower has agreed to recognize them as a bargaining agent for the union. I don't know of any instance where they have been responsible for the raising of wages and I do not think that there are any more domestic workers in the field this year than last year I will agree that at this particular moment there are less Mexican workers or brasero. But this is because we have a different weather situation this year than we had last year. Mr. Zuckerman is it your view that the yet to fire workers should not be unionized. Yes. Do you feel that that is a view which is generally held by the growers. I think it is universally held by the growers not only of California but of the United States as a whole.

Well when you enlarge on the reasons for that possession I think that's very very pregnant. Well the reason is that we use are the same reasons that our lawmakers in their wisdom have used him. It's eliminating or accepting rather agriculture from me. Various laws will be put into effect such as the Taft-Hartley law governing the organization of workers in industry or in non agricultural occupations in the trade unions. This is because agriculture is in a different category. The farmer spans 11 months of the year raising a crop than possibly one month or maybe more in other crops in harvesting it. His entire years of operation in his entire lifetime savings and everything that he owns is tied up in that one crop.

Which under the way that unions have operated in practically all instances they have had a period of negotiation or renegotiation once a year which farmers are certain would fall just at the harvest time or prior to harvest time where the farmer would not be negotiating on an equal basis as was intended by the Taft-Hartley law on others but he would be a tremendous disadvantage. He would be actually negotiating we might say with a gun in his head because he would be at the point where he has to harvest his crop and would be extremely vulnerable to pressures which persons who do not have perishable crops are not subject to. For instance in a mill that produces durable goods if there is a halt in production if there is a slowdown or a stoppage of work or a cooling off period merely means that the doors are shut but work that isn't processed stays there and when the settlement is made

it starts up again there is no loss. The argument has been used that. Canneries in California I have union agreements but a Camry owns no perishable products all they have is what the farmer delivers to them daily and there is a clause in every carriage league contract which states very clearly that the farmer the minute a cannery is shut down because of a strike conditions they are no longer obligated to take the farmer's product so the cannery has nothing to lose except possibly their profit for operations during that period. The whole set up of organized labor as it has operated in the past is not applicable to farm conditions or the time tables are set by nature or work must be performed seasonally and seasonably very often seven days a week. In some instances 24 hours a day. And just

for those reasons and also for the reasons that the farm worker himself does not feel that his particular condition is it is proper for unionization for all these reasons. We as growers and as employers and in protecting our employees do not feel that union organisation is proper and you would take the view that the cat the family member as he now stands is paid adequately in most instances and I will again say I'm talking about California or many areas the United States where they're not paid adequately adequately and it's very surprising to me that the area film CIO didn't go into these areas where people are earning thirty five thirty seven 40 cents an hour and attempt to do something about those admittedly bad situations instead of coming into California which has the highest wage rate of any agricultural area in the United States.

What is the minimum wage in the custody of California. There is no legal minimum wage in California. However I would say that the average at the present time is somewhere between a dollar and fish average earnings is somewhere between a dollar and 15 in a dollar and twenty cents an hour excluding such additional perquisites as are very often furnished housing light electricity power and so forth. Well supposing that the moral issue is to be left aside in entirely and we just talk about it for a moment. And in terms of power supposing the AFL CIO is in fact able to organize the farm workers and it's going to continue to do so let's just suppose that for the purposes of argument it's a very hot temp What are the growers What is the position of the growers because happy that. Situation.

Well everything that. Is true from his point of view but it's based on only the sanction that the worker the farmer the man who actually does the cultivating and the harvesting. And the processing of the product is is a different is in a different world it has no interest in the group or has no interest in the job itself. That it that there's some sort of it's faults the the agricultural worker the man who's picking pears. He when he when he calls on strike and the pear crop should be should be lost he has no job to go back to. It is to his interest not to go on strike. But he has interest is to do something to the only process that has ever worked. That is collective bargaining about the miserable conditions under which he has been forced to work in the past. The only effort on behalf of our CIO in this case we came to California for

a very good reason. To educate ourselves for one thing because this is the largest concentration of this peculiar problem. This is where if it's done here it will be done throughout the country and it is being done here. That is just that simple. But it is to the interest of the worker who would be far from a dollar on average. And Martin you know as I say we do not have the exact facts makes not nothing like that it's only been the last few years and down in the valley that they were making 70 cents an hour 75 cents an hour and there are still conditions that low today. I talked to two men just this morning who worked all day yesterday and made less than $2 and a half. They were more than $10. This may be an exception but we can fire these exceptions everywhere. The only way in which we can do is solid reasonable responsible job is to sit down

with the employers and say certainly we have problems. Certainly it isn't easy for you. We don't have all the answers now but we have intelligence and we certainly have experience and together that's it with again goodwill let's try to work out a solution. It may not we may not get it the first time we may have to experiment but we're interested in the crops. We don't not want to strike. We're interested in building an organization based upon reason based upon experience based upon a knowledge of what can be done the practical knowledge of what can and what cannot be done. And that's the purpose of building this you know and that's why it's been successful because this approach is a reasonable approach and it's only one reason. It takes the mastery that the thing gets out of hand. There has not been a willful strike call. There was no there was no intention to hurt anybody and the cherries harvest over in San Joaquin. It was only when the employers said no I won't deal. It's only one employer said Alright I'll meet the price that you

bargained for and we didn't bargain. We sat in the hotel room at Stockton and had meetings with representatives of more than 60 percent of the growers at one time and we did come to an understanding as to what the price was going to be and it was a raised price last year for an 85 cent bucket. This year as a result of the bargain the bucket was paid at a dollar and ten cents. Now if that's not a bargain I have no idea what bargaining is it exactly what is this. Claim has been made before but we have never found one grower out of the 60 percent that we were supposed to be in the room who was there. They'll ever find one or a very good reason. I am sure we could help you find them. But for a very good reason we talked to growers and ranchers every day of our lives. These people are under intimidation and under coercion and under pressure and under threats by the big growers not to deal with us. Well Mr. Daniel you're dealing in fairy tales. I remember her I wished I was. I've never

heard of an instance of any snow you wouldn't hurt yourself so you have to have. The threats that were made to workers who go through the picket lines and the pickets they will get you when you come back to town now those are the only threats and I must admit and I want to compliment you on the fact that there has been less of violence and less of that type of thing in your strikes this time than there were before. Thank you. I think that is that pattern will be followed even more completely There's been no violence so far as we were there is interim justice minister Janet Hill had a crew in the field and he's. Some trial for it I think. On the 22nd of this month well some of those growers have tried to run our pickets down and some of them made threats some of them fresh guns in our faces. This sort of thing is of not great importance on Mr. Sercombe and it's your view I believe that the agricultural workers are not interested in being organized. Doesn't that make have your position comparatively simple land.

No it should be simple and it's not only my view that they're not interested in being organized. They tell me this every day and there are instances I would quite I do they are I mean why do you call it the flavor of organization and unionization that's being offered to them gives them nothing but an opportunity to pay dues and if they are not particularly interested in either. But this is not being made simple because and I think Mr. Daniel knew but to state one other reason why they came to California although it's been admitted and that is the political climate in our state since the last election is recognized as being the most favorable of any State United States to get this type of action going. I guess that's one of the biggest agricultural states in the union is not what this time of the leading as everybody else OK. But we do not have in our present administration a state government anyone who is favorable to agriculture and we are we are being throttled by union pressure if you will

upon our administrators in the state government and in the federal government. This is a very peculiar case where there is a. A small army being run by some very astute generals of which Mr. Daniel is certainly one of the more astute and they have come to California and taken advantage of certain peculiar laws which we have in the state of California in certain very peculiar recent legal decisions which create situations that no one ever dreamed of and which are acting in a way that put the farmer to a tremendous disadvantage. And it is an attempt to court coerce the farmer into recognizing the Union as a bargaining agent in order to avoid the unpleasant consequences of these particular restrictions I'd like to give you one example. And this is the one that's been referred to over and over. This is this matter of what constitutes a labor dispute.

The definition of the labor dispute has been on the books of the state of California for I don't know how many years but it's never been applicable in agriculture because there was a decision in the Shabbas case which said there must be a very definite employer employee relationship before a group of men can create what the state will recognize as a labor dispute. In January of this year with the new Supreme Court made up with the two new justices that were appointed by this administration they overturned the Shabbas case by a 4 to 3 majority in the Smith case the Petrie case. These were all cases by the way that did not involve agriculture one involved a dry cleaning company another a barber shop another butcher shop. But taking advantage of this. We arrived at the situation where the State Department of Employment certifies as a bonafide labor dispute. A situation where none of the employees of the farmer. Our

going out on strike where people who have never worked a minute on a particular job can say they are dissatisfied and set up a picket line. And this in the terms of the law as it is as it is presently being administered constitutes a labor dispute. The results upon the farmer are the minute there is a labor dispute. The State Department of Employment refuses to refer any farm workers to that farm. And so the farmer is without the services of the very organization that was set up under the Wagner Peizer act du lady and that is the State Farm placement service. It was to aid not only the grower but also the worker to find employment. Times when he didn't have. We have two Superior Court decisions now which state that the director of employment is acting illegally in this case and I have directed him to act otherwise in the specific instances that these cases

referred to and in my judgment and in the judgment I think of any fair minded person. Until these two decisions are overruled by a higher court and I might add that Mr. Perlis has appealed the cases but until they are over ruled he should abide by them but he has the temerity and the audacity to say that he will not abide by the decision of superior court judges because in his opinion as a lawyer the judges are wrong. Now Brooke believe me that's taking tremendous administrative. Audacity to make a remark like that and I think it's is not right. Well his decision is in the specific cases he did follow the court orders and he's ready to get word corporation plain exactly similar situations where there is not one difference of facts surrounding him. He will not refer to workers which. What does that do that makes every farmer who finds himself in this situation bring a suit against Perlitz by something that has

already been decided in the Superior Court of the California and will certainly set a precedent. This notwithstanding the fact that Mr. Pearl has begged us to take these matters to court so that he could have in his own words judicial guidance and then he would be willing to follow. Now you have judicial guidance but he doesn't have the administrative courage to follow the judicial decision. Well I understand it as I understand it Mr. permis is carrying his cases to an appellate court because through some legal technicalities a very court decision does not constitute a legal precedent or it is a legal precedent but it may be overturned by a higher court. I have no quarrel with him carrying it to a higher court but I do say that until the decision is changed by a higher court he should follow the rulings of the spiri or courts in which he has been ordered to change is a decision for Mr. President actions have resulted in a enough. Use of your Bizarros has it because if they if the State Department cannot certify the

use of of domestic labor in the field then Mr. Perkins takes the position that they cannot certify that for the use of Mexican There you are correct in the second part yes it is the real need for brasero those as yet in large quantities in this part of California has not come because that comes when you have the three crops the three major crops peaches tomatoes and grapes along with the other crops all coming at one time as happened last year. They have not happened just prior to this date last year and that's where we ran into the big labor shortage and had to be bringing in the large number of reserves this year because of a weather difference. We've had a more orderly ripening of crops this is what I referred to earlier. The players were first followed by the peaches that the peaches will be virtually finished by the time the tomato harvest starts. And we're in hopes that by virtue of this we will not have to use such a large number of supplemental work.

I'd like to the back to fathom talk for a moment. As Glenn not directly involved in either end of this what is your impression of the response of the workers to the effort to unionize them. Well I've the first thing I would have to say of my personal experience has been directly opposite to John's in that the many many workers and I encountered do want a union. I do encounter regularly the fear that the cards are stacked against them and that they will just lose in efforts to get a union. They many workers have been involved in one or the other of the efforts in the past and suffered heavily in the miners involvement and are slow to get involved again. They feel hopeless that they can get a union and this makes many hesitate. Others have told me this quite frankly

who have the better jobs in agriculture are fearful that if they become active in the union and known to be active in the union will lose the jobs and will be reduced from tractor drivers to. Tomato pickers and such things as that. So they are frankly sitting by the side sidelines watching how this thing goes. And prepared to move in on the winning side. This is I think one of the big difficulties the union has to overcome is the job of convincing the troops that the victory can be won in so getting to get in and to take part. Now secondly I can say that my experience of the recent months has been this that the efforts that the union has made have made

have gotten down to the people in this way that they feel that their situation is better now even a nonunion workers feel that they are getting a more stable employment better employment opportunities and better wages this year than they've had in the past and they are beginning to feel convinced that the union is done this and. My judgment is that there is a among many workers a beginning of a change in attitude as far as the possibility of organizing a union is concerned. I just interrupt to say one thing because I'm going to have to leave here. I take exception to one thing you said in your introduction and that is to classifying father McCulloch as an impartial observer in this matter. He has four but he's not a grower and he is not a union organizer He's a social worker I believe I believe you could properly class him as a union organizer for

whatever good name to that charge. We will admit that you can't admit you have encouraged and exhorted workers for three to four years to form a union. You even set up a Union office in your own parish house there in Stockton. You have worked hand in glove with the union as a matter of fact you have at one time said and it has been reported to me that unionization of foreign workers must take place even if it means the cracking of the ads and the running of blood in the gutters. I don't know whether you know that expression but here let me let me clarify a few of those issues first. I certainly have encouraged workers to join a union. I've told them that not only do they have a right but they have a moral responsibility and obligation to themselves and to their fellow workers too. The members of the Union I certainly have done that. Secondly the organization or the association which I helped in getting started with not a union. It was specifically an association of workers for the purpose of education

and of preparing it. This is the agricultural workers of the Agricultural Workers Association was not a union. It was an effort to get workers together to know one another and to have them discuss their problems and to have them educated as far as unions what they were and prepared in the event that a union might come that there would be some people who would understand what it was and take part. It was not a union man I say that a rose by any other name is just too sweet. Well. When I tell you it's one that I would like anything I would like that I'd like I asked about blood running in the gutter and that I don't think I made a statement I think I may have stead that this union has got to be organized I would not want to see heads cracked and blood running to see it be organized. But if that had to be done that had to be done. I think I told that to Mr. Ross who is a member of Europe and I told him I'd like to add this. I told him that in the present one of the growers

they're telling this grower this that I thought that the associations which were advising the growers were doing them a disservice by advising them. And this all out fight against unions and the idea of unionism that by advising them this way they were advising them into a position which might bring a great deal of hurt and I thought it would be much more fitting and proper that association is that advice to the growers might advise the growers as to the possibilities of dealing with responsible labor organisations rather than inviting them to an all out fight which might really end up with people being hurt not only I mean economically and possibly physically could I just clear out one question before Mr. Zuckerman has to leave. And that's. The position of bargaining strength on either side Mr. Mr. Zuckerman has brought up the point that with the highly capitalized cash crop which matures in a very short time to three weeks I think

grower is in a terrible position to bargain because if he doesn't get his problem settled in enough two or three weeks he's just lost a whole year's investment in time and so on so we're going to have a hard position he loses his entire money and go well oh let's just discuss what are the various positions of strength and it without a union what strength does the worker have I before going to hurt anyone ever heard of unions here and for 30 years that I've been in the farming business the workers have banded together. If they feel that they're getting an improper wage or too low wage they have sat down on the rose and the employer has gone out and talked to them. They've had a reasonable case to present and the grower is able to do what they're been adjustments made that thing takes place in 10 20 or 30 minutes the work goes on and I don't think employers are that

cruel heartless pig headed people that Mr. Daniel and Mr. Smith say we are a matter of fact amongst our own employees which we have had for years are some of the best friends that I've ever made my wife a grower realizes that his most precious commodity is good labor good workers people who are doing well. And this is shown by the fact that over the years the wage rate of workers has increased it's increased 43 percent in a very short space of time which is really more than it has in industry the fact that the whole level started off low has something to do with the type of industry in the type of return the real the real the. Salvation to this whole thing. Is labor saving devices which increase the productivity of the worker just as it has been increased in the past since 1930 the productivity of the worker has increased two and a half

times through the introduction of labor saving devices. These new inventions are coming along very rapidly. You have a machine operator for instance doing the work of maybe 50 or 75 or 100 men. That man is earning very very fine wages. I don't think anybody will quarrel with that. This type of thing is necessary because the very nature that some of the of some of the jobs is a highly uneconomical thing to do. We not only have harvesting involved we have such things as going into fields pulling weeds pulling weeds pulling weeds and nobody's making anything out of pulling weeds because you're simply destroying a nuisance that's occurring. And this is a job that is being attacked by the chemical people the spray people are getting selective sprays where you can spray a crop to kill the weeds and not harm the crop. All this type of thing is he's going to correct. These low priced labor situation the introduction of creature experience of mechanical harvesting equipment all that type of thing is going to be beneficial so the

farmer is not just sitting there saying well I'm going to depress these people and exploit them and make them work for nothing. He is thinking in terms of the welfare of his workers as well as his own. The pharmacist who has to leave I would like to express to one area in which I find myself in complete agreement. Just as a woman I've just read. A letter of instruction sent out by the associated farmers to their members telling them how to deal with this problem which you say does not exist. How to meet the Union when it appears. And I think number two on the instructions is. Inside if plays are very important. If you can raise your wages to the least $15 a day you'll stop the union. Now I don't think it will stop the union but I want to say that we will join you if our voice means anything. And if you wouldn't welcome ours to have it we would join you in asking that a $50 a day be put it will we'll take our

chances because this is what we're after.