The walking Negroes of Montgomery / Robert Schutz, Reverend L. Roy Bennett.; Men and issues

So I understand you have been instrumental in the Montgomery Bus integration fight. Well I have I was in my own government at the time Rosa Parks arrest. And I was one of the ministers who excuse me hail that first meeting in which we the government Improvement Association with Bo. It's interesting to me that you took on a name the Montgomery Improvement Association. These are mostly the names that at least in communities around here. White people take on in order to keep Negroes out of housing in their communities. You realize as I presume and you did this probably was intent right. Well yes what we were intending to do our campaign the show was that we were not just attempting to ride the buses but we wanted to improve the status not only of the Negro but of all people are in one government so your weak your reasoning being that if you improve the status of the negro you will improve the white man's car.

That's right that's right. And therefore make him a better man. That's right that's right and you know we were using and are using the weapon of love. Our total nonresistance. You really love those white man. Well yes. Yes we we do. I can't say that we love all their deeds but we have we've gone a long way to show what love really means. And it has been far more effective. Even on us then you might think it had. It has been a weapon that has really done a great job. You know love as a weapon sounds to me very in Congress. But it but but it isn't. It's one of the most effective weapons that you can you are a fine example. Doing the priest much to this protest. This city commission the money I put on what they call the get tough policy. And we

were we were emphasizing the nonviolence in all of our attitude. And it's surprising to know how how the reaction of those policeman were and the all of the police officials. Shall I say were to the non violent act. We became submissive to whatever they did we pay their fines we didn't protest. We didn't. The only thing we did was to walk and absolutely steal the bus. And it has it has it has one for us many many friends even in Montgomery that have not ever given their names. Perhaps. That has been demonstrated in the howling of negroes in a number of people have kept their head up. If they had let their hair go they would have crippled us so barely. But because of the RIAA attitude and their respect for it

they kept the negro here. You said you were one of the ministers who organized the Montgomery Improvement Association. Yes I was president I've been the nomination of a lot and it was organized in the IRA. I presided over the first three awful meetings. How was this idea born. It was Bond in the minds of many citizens. I because of the brutality of the bus drivers the bus drivers and my government have police power. And they are censored. They have police power too. Not necessarily a request but they say they arrange the ceding to their own discretion and it is against the law to disobey the audience of a bus driver. And because of that there was a great deal of brutality manifested by them particularly those who were I should I say the less intelligent not all the bus drivers were harsh not all of them

were hard to get along with but there were those who were particularly selfish and our protest was bone against bad treatment of Negro passengers and a number of Negro passengers would pay their fare at the front of the bus and would have to go back to the rear of the bus to both it and by the time they would get there the driver would have driven off leave them take their fare and leave them standing. They had side sections reserved for white man side section for any growth. And any number of time negroes would stand over those empty buses. They could lay their packages if they had packages in their hand they could lay them on the seat. We were not permitted to sit on. But what the question I mean when I ask how the Montgomery Improvement Association was born is. Is this what gave you the idea to form this organization and to proceed as you did in a nonviolent protest. It walking the streets.

We called a meeting after Rosa Parks arrest and I and I'm sure you you know that episode we called How Many More than a year ago and that's right yes it was December the 2nd and fifty six fifty five to five Yeah we called a meeting. I have the ministers and the interested Lehmann's to see what might be done that was maybe the second or third reoccurrence of this thing and we call you ministers had mystery association that's right and right you probably announce this meeting from the pope as well not the phrase meeting the first meeting for them was called by interested people. Maybe someone would call you and asked you to meet it. Martin Luther King's church that night without saying anything about who they were District come on dime because Mrs. Parks had been arrested. And let's see if we can't do something about it. And we met maybe 50 75 or 100. Nobody knew the nature of the meeting we had no

agenda and so when we got there. It was asked that the ministers would take charge and I being the president naturally I have in my life to preside over. We decided that night that we would call a mass meeting Monday night. I mean the main times we asked all Negroes to stay off the buses. Monday December the pit door and music box truck. We were so successful in keeping them off the first day until end that mass meeting we asked. Everybody to stay out until we had gotten some of the things we were asking for. We asked for three proposition. The first was we wanted more courtesy on the buses. Told me grow citizen. The second was we wanted the seating arrangement changed to the price come first serve basis particularly in the predominantly negro area. And the third was

we wanted a negro bus drivers at the earliest convenience. And those were the three things we were asking for and we asked our people to walk. And all those things were got. And that's how the the protests were born. And it is how it has proceeded. And fortunately they walked and they were able I did get though at least their parish to Supreme Court outlawed segregation on public transportation in both the city and state of Alabama. But I mean Alabama and we've gone back to the buses now. You think this is good that the Supreme Court outlawed segregation. Well yes yes it's good not only for us but I think it's good for our international life. Yes. But you just told me a moment ago that. Several negro. Parsonages were bombed last night or very recently is it not true that is

true. Yes I heard this morning. I haven't heard from the association as yet to know which church is parsonages were barmy but I heard over the air this morning and that four Negro churches were bombed last night three Negro churches and a white one the Negro church that has a white patch that was bombed last night and it maims that town. They are continuing their balance attitude. They were bombing you while you were walking where they where yes there were there were two or three barber. There were two or three money. Manu the King's home was mom. He is the president now the EMI and Nixon one of the officers of the optimisation home with mum. And I believe that's how much bond was before he and his family were away. So occasionally there was bombing and balance. But now they are resorting to.

It would seem the stepped up tempo should we say of their valor. But no matter what happens something must be done. Nothing could be worse than conditions were before we staged protests. Yeah that's true. But I am wondering about the best way to achieve your end. You have a spouse day a method of nonviolence love of continuing protest and now you have achieved your end formally through a Supreme Court directive which carries behind it the implicit power of federal government troops if necessary. And there seems to be stepped up by allowance as a result of this force. Force meets force. I wondered how you looked at that arm. Years ago. In a different form they protested negro mail carriers with a Fein and that stone blew over into

de negro mail carriers are accepted in all parts of the South like they are in a place here. It will because somebody said it must be done and we believe we believe that the if the Supreme Court speaks that kind of thing we need this if the Supreme Court speak and stand by it. M&A violence will stop. A.C. has an integrated school now. It's because the attorney general said that it must be. And then you do believe in force as well as love. Well not necessarily on our part just another weapon and here are some. Yes we are using the nonviolent method we use in the force of law. And that is just saying something that means that we are really taking it on the chin no matter what anybody says no matter what anybody does. We are we are going on but we and tend to do that until we accomplish our aim and the result has been

already the Supreme Court as I think knows now and not only the Supreme Court but the federal government knows now that the growing this out is going to protest until he gets his rights. I think everybody knows that and we are getting more and more to get recognition. And so I think we have done the right thing I think we're going after the right wing. You see a little while ago today you told me that you had been born and reared in North Carolina. And that up until very recently North Carolina was the most advanced and progressive of the Southern states with respect to equal rights for Negroes. But that most recently North Carolina has reverted. To become one with Mississippi and Alabama. As far as these things are concerned. Now why is this true. It is true. I Because the I think not care and I

resent being told what to do. It was going a long way but it wasn't gone as far as it should have gone. I have an example a few negroes in North Carolina vote until Negroes get the ballot. They will NEVER they will never have the equal right. Taxation without representation is unfair. It is unfair they have and so North Carolina has stepped up its protest. Should I Say I to keep the ballot from the Negro. Their school system is fine. In response to being told by the Supreme Court what they must must do. That's right I think that has a great deal to do with the violence and not as much being haven't been told what they should do. As it was no one what would actually happen if the Negro in North Carolina had about what would. Well they would they

would have far more rights than they have an example in all of the southern state police brutality is pronounced in all and all of the southern states as one of the things where people don't vote. They they have no right and that anybody respect. But you know it so happened that everybody respects the ballot no matter who casts whether you're black or white or white Not if he has a ballot he has the respect of the ballot and negroes are not allowed to know that when they get the ballot conditions will change their great big. Not only do the negroes know it but everybody does. And for that reason I think no white in North Carolina has become a far more segregationist than they were then was was represented on the surface before. Yes. You think that the. The way for the Negro to get the ballot in the south however is in this case probably. Through federal

legislation implementing the Constitution. For myself I think that very definitely not through some sort of protest. Which wells up from the Negro himself in the south and is carried out by your method of nonviolence and love. To actuate the southern white person. White States governments to give it to him. Well we must we must continue the protest and we must continue the protest until the federal government can tie rescue. This thing now has has taken on such a proportion and I don't want to see propaganda. But I would like the publicity. Until it has become a world problem everybody knows now what goes on in the south. And until we do something about that. I am of the opinion that our voice is weak when it comes to giving direction to underprivileged people over the world.

I think this is perfectly true and I think that. I wouldn't want to even question you or your remarks about. The foreign affects of our discrimination in the south and press and for that matter all over the United States I suppose or some discrimination. I was really asking and I think you were giving me at in part at least. The stock and standard southern white answer to my question. The Southern white person who says. If you impose this on us through your federal government will fight it will fight it as much as possible. We may go down eventually but we'll never accept it. Now this kind of reasoning makes me think that if it's true your victory may not be real though it be won unless it is achieved perhaps. Through the

complete extension of the technique that you in Montgomery have so successfully engineered. But I may be wrong. Believe it or not all Americans are law abiding people no matter how we howl about it before it's done before the law is passed. America at heart is law abiding. And once it becomes the law of the land they were bad back then. For an example in our national election and this may be a little foreign but perhaps it will strengthen what I'm attempting to say. You would think knowing the campaign that nobody on the opposite side would ever even look around at whoever was elected. The way we the way we campaign. But once a president is nominated and elected he is everybody's president. No matter whether he's a Republican a Democrat he's ever but everybody alibied by his rule and regulation as far that goes. And the same thing is true in

the south when the when the Supreme Court. Implement its mandate they will be obeyed. I am sure of that because we have had as I mentioned a moment ago in Clinton Tennessee and the way those 13 negroes those nine negroes who were integrated in this white high school are going to school now without any disturbance whatsoever. There was a great to do about it in the beginning but it soon passed or when it passed away and when the governor came in I believe it is of Tennessee. I sent the National Guard in there to keep order. They were they knew then that he meant integration and they were integrated. And that that's true and what are the negro's real goals. Full and complete citizenship in every sense of the word

not. We are not concerned about social equality. You're not. No we are that doesn't enter the equation. Well legal and political equality. Yes that's right. And when I say social equality I'm thinking in terms I mean to marry me grows interested in that why not. Well he is me and he's happy to be as he is he would like to stay here and should have put it. He should like to. He is as proud of being a few blood negro. There aren't any other. Well they are few. Their field. Well then this doesn't really hold. No now know it there are only a very few very few very few. But the negro isn't interested in social equality intermarriage and the like but he is interest is a reaction to white propaganda about miseducation. Oh yes yes Oh certainly said that and that's propaganda that's propaganda.

You hear I mean the Negro saying that he's not interested in social equality is this a reaction to this propaganda. No it's not a reaction it is an actuality he really isn't interested in that but he is and is not interested in individual freedom then so far as it applies to picking a marrying made. Well and that it is objective let's put it that way then perhaps that answers your question. If it were if it were if it were the desire are two persons. Have different races to intermarry. The negro would not object very but that didn't his go. He didn't too he didn't fighting for integration in order that he might enter Now if you get the vote. Should he not see to it that if there are laws against intermarriage as I believe there are Southern states. These laws should be abolished so I don't think so. So that individuals could decide for themselves. No I don't think the freedom in the true sense of the constitutional sense of that word.

Well it would be but that would be carried a little for I don't think I don't think that that has ended the mind of the Southern Negro in America. But that is the bugaboo that they set up to offset everything here. There's Eastlands philosophy that the negro wants to enter his home wants to associate with his daughter wants his son to associate with me. Seems that range to me that the negro doesn't set up a little counter propaganda to the fact that after all if we all had a little negro blood in us we'd have a built in sun tan and we'd be just a little bit more coffee colored and you know everybody be happy. There is no basis for discrimination. You can tell now. And that would be. I would be missing the point altogether I think. Basically what we want what we want is

a first class citizenship. We happy to remain pure blooded Negro and we feel that we have the ballot would be a better chance to remain pupil. If you follow because we do have. Well I follow a certain extent we went over this before as to how pure you are. Well that's right. And it isn't our fault. Should I say I agree we would. If you're going to discuss that of course we would. We aren't interested in any in America but we are we are we do believe that is fair one way through the fence it would be through the other two it is going to be a passing through the pan to get UBL both weight. But we will be happy to keep the gate closed. Isn't this the basis of many white southerners reaction against integration. That's what it is that's propaganda that he set up to smokescreen his real meaning. Propaganda is propaganda given the fact that one.

Children students go to school and are together a great deal on an equal basis that they're not likely to ever marry. Now I don't I don't think there will be any in America in the south for a long long long time and I don't think. I don't think either group particularly of children is thinking that there is a kind of integration you'll get in the schools as the kind that we have in certain northern cities where the negroes all go stand in one corner and the whites go down another corner and they keep very much a part in their social relationships they don't go to dances together they don't do anything together really except sit in the same classroom. That's right but this is desirable. Well it is desirable on a voluntary basis. You see we don't want to compulsory you don't you don't want to be made to sit in a state go even if you are integrated. We feel that whatever goes on should go on whatever it takes to to give a person a complete education.

And that that that includes his physical education and whatever whatever is implied in an education. We feel that he should have. Yeah. And not on a segregated basis even if you have the negroes elect to stand in the corner or have all the whites elect to stand in a corner then let them do it but if you want to go in that corner you don't want any and embarrass negroes only are white and many of those lines only social mores. That's right. That's that's what I'm trying to say absolutely. Let the let the mother raise and the mind of each group are governed his social activities. What about economic equality. That's what we're fighting for economic equality that's another of your goals. That's right because the Negro is the priest. The last hot in the price bar. He isn't he doesn't have access to two jobs that pay

and a sane category no matter what his qualification is and we feel we feel that they are king here. If a person is qualified for a job he should have a job if he is best qualified but doesn't matter whether what is Kelly And what about Go. That that answer your call yes pretty well I think unless you have other goals are to like to point up. Well economic and political goals and the like are those pub which we are fighting. Particularly for our civil rights and we think of civil rights as including all of the basic rights of an individual. He want justice that the law and of law. Everybody knows that he doesn't get justice in the south. It's hard for a negro to well fact he can't get a Triple A

inch in short automobile Incheon in the south because everybody knows that he is responsible for the wreck no matter where they hit he responsible for being here and he said in a responsible for hitting with me. So we feel that civil rights would eliminate those inequalities. Have people like yourself ministers other Negro leaders. Any plans for extension of the method that you've used in the Montgomery strike. To other areas. Yes it is spreading not only I mean not only areas like in Atlanta for example where the ministers are doing the same thing with respect to transportation but I mean in other areas of life like in the method of getting the vote or securing equal judicial treatment or protesting police brutality. Do you have any any ideas of using this method in

those areas. Oh yes oh yes we're going to carry. We're going to carry the fight on until we have gotten equal justice. How in every Or just just how can you do this. How well we're going to continue to protest. For an example. We won't be able to walk that type of justice out. No he won't be able to demonstrate it in that way but we shall continue to register and register and register until we are able to vote. One of the seven thinned in the south is the ballot. We had a member of our group to go down one thousand times and mine got me to register to vote in the FINA register the 900 times he was a teacher of history in State College and his Ph.D. there you'd know he was. They couldn't deny him the ballot on his qualifications they can see what qualified. And those are some of the things that we would like to have eliminated

from. The barriers removed. But you can't organize a mass going down to read or you don't know yeah that's what we are doing here doing that yes we have already set up in the EMI. That's one of the reason we called it the mind Gummer Improvement Association yes we want to improve his status and every walk of life. And we have already voting clinics and I churches and and various organizations. We are boarding planes where we are teaching people how to vote and how to acquire the ballot. Well you're teaching them so they can pass these literacy tests. That's right I think that Trey and Ryan pose. And then they go down and stand in line to register the trime after time until finally maybe they will try we go that stand the way they have perhaps in some in many counties they have one register for Negroes. And this

register worked as slowly as possible killed all the time he possibly can. Some say and far. If that is the case we're prepared to just go there and wait and wait and wait until he does something about the crash. I guess wait it out. You get a favorable press when you do things like that. Yes we do we do we do. One of the things we must remember everybody in the south is for Europe. We have a very fine friend in the south and those friend would like to see equal justice everywhere. And I think one of the byproduct of our nonviolence had man had to show to them that we were real and sincere and I. Thank you very much Reverend Brown.

Thank you.