Has the world changed?

I'm in the studio with William L. Patterson and Mr. Patterson. You're an attorney I believe and you have been an attorney for a great number of years by now. As these things go when did you start to practice. Nineteen twenty four nineteen twenty four. There weren't many black attorneys then were there. Very few in New York and scattered about the country there were very few or so. And you've been involved in a number of political cases during that time. I think that each generation perhaps in our world has the feeling that nothing quite like what they're doing has ever happened before and that that's not only natural but it's it's very well that they think that because otherwise they might become discouraged. And what I would like to talk to you about this morning if I may. If your recollections of some of

the major political trials in which you have been involved and it begins I believe they are back in the sack and the days does it not. Yes. I was involved in the cycle and say Not however I was one of the defense counsel. I went over there went up to Boston. A man who felt very deeply that a monstrous crime was being committed by the state of Massachusetts. And while there was arrested three times and it was together with the and the St. Vincent Millay John Doe's Carina Michelson and a number of Howard Lawson. And my gold.

And I know all very well-known names. We were in the demonstration one of the main demonstrations which took place before the Capitol. The police made an effort to arrest me and succeeded and I think that this was the first occasion when a Negro came forward to play a part in the arrest conviction and illegal murder of a white person. I felt very you were already an attorney then. Yes yes. I felt very very strongly that these two men were figures who had been of tremendous assistance to the labor movement. And I felt that.

I need to go particularly as a lawyer should involve myself in the fight to save their lives. If that was possible was most of your practice to begin with in the Harlem area in New York. Yes a good part of it was although our firm quickly became established as one of the leading legal firms in the country and I was the man who bought the first insurance company into New York. The victory Life Insurance Company which was founded by negroes and whose resident home was in Chicago wanted to come to New York where there had never been an insurance company. A negro insurance company and I was their attorney.

I also happened to be the attorney of one of the large banks over there doing all their work so that it was our clientele wasn't soley drawn from New York or the Harlem ghetto. It was on a larger basis and I was it fairly difficult to get justice for me. People in the ghettos of Harlem. I would put it a little differently. I would say that it was impossible to get justice for the Negro in the ghetto and not alone Harlem with any. I think that if the offense with which a Negro was charged. Rose out of differences between two negroes. Then there was a

possibility of one or the other getting what you call justice. But if the offense was one that a Negro was charged with having committed against a white person then it was impossible. You know include civil actions as well as cases where physical violence might be involved. Well the main concern so for actions. Just let me say one word about the tremendous difficulty a negro confronts in trying to get in and trying to get justice in the ghetto. In the first place. As a person in the ghetto to get a rise to having very little contact with the outside area.

The authorities have always in my opinion. Tended to treat the Negro in such a way as to make him feel his inferiority and also to instill a certain fear in him of the courts and the police and Harlem where many negroes were making every possible effort to secure equality of opportunity and rights. Was probably the city which in its activity set the pattern for the West rest of the ghettos throughout the country. Therefore the police there and the courts showed no leniency at all whenever it was a conflict between white and black.

Were you involved in the Scott case. I headed the defense. The Scots were furious. I thought it was a hend was I think I heard that and was as a consequence. Quite considerably involved. It was I who retained Samuel Liebowitz as an attorney for the Scottsboro boys. Sam Liebowitz was noted not only through New York but throughout the profession as one of the great. Defense lawyers criminal defense lawyers. He had had a number of handled a number of cases with leading gangsters in the country like that sure and a number of others of that ilk. But my thinking was

that he was just a figure that could dramatize this case and give to lead to what I thought was important to us. He scuffs were OK she was in my opinion an attempt to. And it came at a period when our country was still in the throes of the Hoover crisis when thousands hundreds of thousands of lads were running around the country finding no work and no place to settle down. And these. It was a period in which every effort was being made to join Negro and whites in what was known as the hunger marches. And as a consequence these lads all of whom were innocent were

arrested with some white lads in Alabama. And the case began you know it might have remained so only a matter of concern for the people of Alabama. But I had the idea that the struggle for Negro rights had to be lifted to levels higher than any local city or that it had to be made the property of the people of America that it had to be brought to the European scene you know order that the people of Europe might get a clear picture of what the American justice looked like when Negroes were fighting for their lives. So I sent two of the mothers. To Europe to tour Europe and made that

case. I think one of the great. Well there's no question about the family there's I think that's a very case was one of the great cases in American legal history. Yes it is rather than 10 years. It took 17 years to free Haywood Patterson who was the most aggressive of those boys. When they were arrested it paint rock. Here in Alabama two of them were thirteen years of age. All of them were convicted and all with the exception of one sentenced to die in the electric chair. It was a case. That had to be fought out three times it went of course to the United States Supreme Court and the United States Supreme Court reversed the trial court on each to each occasion. It was my opinion

however that the Supreme Court exposed itself as far as being an institution through which negroes could secure their rights by not throwing the case out of court but remitting remind remitting it for new trials. And these lads had to go through that same torture mile the way they took their decisions on technicalities rather than on the issue. That's right. Well isn't that what happened of the. Of any court when it wants to get out from under. Yes it is. As a matter of fact I don't think that the Supreme Court has ever based a decision either favorable or otherwise to Negros without dealing with a technicality. The issues and particularly if they're issues constitution of a constitutional character are evaded.

And because were they not that would make the Supreme Court a defender of Negro rights which it never has been. And in my opinion no Iraqi unit is going or is the race issue the only issue on which the courts including the Supreme Court use this as a method to keep from facing the fundamental point at issue that in true of cases where this all started you know I cases that yes it's true of any court in any case in which we complain that it is acting against what he regards as unconscionable unconstitutional procedure on the part of any institution of government. I hear you have a fascinating story about one of your witnesses. The Scottsboro case would you like to tell us about that white

woman who came to. There were two white girls of course as you know involved in the Scottsboro case. Well when the nine and Laird's were pulled off the train in pain crying a number of white lads also all wandering over the country looking for jobs. Were pulled off the train. Some of the white clouds argued that the negroes that attacked them and. That something ought to be done about it. When the police started to look over the arrested the lads they found the two women they were dressed in overalls and it was difficult at first and then the thought came to some

sheriff there that the charge might be might as well be rape and if it were made then the conviction of these lads would be assured particularly in that neighborhood and for two days they tried both to get the Victoria price. It was one of the young girls and Ruby Bates who made a complaint that the boys had raped her. Bates was extremely reluctant to make a statement of this kind. But finally the pressure was placed upon her and she did. Shortly after that Ruby state from the south. And came north. She told me the story that the boys had never touched her. She said however that she had been forced into prostitution when she was 13 years old.

She was working then in the male textile mills gaining some $2 and 50 cents or 60 cents a week and she said when she told Lee boss that she it was impossible to live on such an amount. He told her that he should she should make it up by going with some of the followers. The weight follows me and she did this. She was arrested for prostitution and put on probation and one o the probationary one probation officers told her that she'd have to have a nigger day. That is that she would have to go to bed with a Negro. And the purpose was to have a negro who could be charged with rape if they wanted it. What she was told this by a probation officer she was told this by a one of the mission of the Alabama. So I sent

her to see Reverend Father Dick. Reverend Fosdick was the head of one of the larger churches in New York City. One of the largest churches in New York I think it's the Rockefeller church. Matter of fact. She went to see Fosdick and made a statement there that she had not been touched. Now the trial was in process and to get a person of this kind on the witness stand meant to jeopardize her life. I told her that if you have any idea that those men in Alabama won't Lynch a woman a white woman I said you're mistaken. I said if you go down and testify on behalf of those boys you are walking into a very grave danger. She insisted that she couldn't let those allowed to die without telling the true

story really was she was a heroic woman. She was a woman whose life had been almost destroyed. But fundamentally deep within this girl was a human decency. She went back and testified. She was called all kinds of names of course even on the witness stand. Among them being that she was a nigger lover. Her story of course made it impossible to carry through the execution. Ruby Bates afterwards came north to live and I think that maybe now she's If she's still alive she's living up in Minnesota right outside of Minnesota with the man she married. But it was one of the most

dramatic features of the trial perhaps the first trial where white woman justified on behalf of a negro under such circumstances wouldn't you think. I never heard of another such instance. I never heard of another chance. It was I. It's always been from me one of those heroic acts which gives proof that. Among white Americans many of whom I believe not only have been brainwashed but also as a result dehumanized that among these American She was one of I'm outstanding. Elmore writes I don't know if you know his name.

Yes I know he did a play on Scottsboro in which the woman who played Ruby bass was one of the featured one of the stars. I spoke the first night from the stage that the play was resented to New York. And I said this woman is heroic figure. One of the things that I regretted ever sent that cry out was that I didn't put money aside to send that woman through school. She was almost illiterate and but she was a woman of great character. It's a fascinating story. I had never heard it before. And you were involved I think with the six and something called the MARTIN Bill seven but took place in Richmond Virginia and the Martinsville seven

went to their death from the death house in Richmond Virginia. The case however didn't arise in Richmond. The case for roles in the little town at the southern tip of Genya are a white woman who was known in the town who had a reputation for looseness in the town. As one who made the outcry that these nine negroes had raped her I went down to Virginia. I took with me the. Wife of the leading figure. I can't think of her name at the moment.

And I went to see the warden asked him if I could see the prisoners. He said yes. And I walked into the prison yard. The death house was at a far end of the prison yard. And as I observed the prisoners there in the yard there was. The vast majority of them were black. There was a small cadre of white prisoners standing together bunched at one end of the yard. When I got to the death house there were 11 inmates in the death house nine of them Negro. When I after I had spoken with the man come back came back to the warden's office and I asked him what was the percentage of negroes and he said person I said would I be correct if I said 75. And he said Yes about two thirds of the

prisoners are Negro. They were all sentenced and they went to the electric chair. All of them. The struggle lasted probably eight or six or seven months. Were there some demonstrations around that case in which both whites and negroes participated or am I wrong in my memory of that because it seems to me I remember something. No you're absolutely correct. There were demonstrations in America there were demonstrations overseas. I have the idea here. I have held it all my life all my adult life that no victories of a vitally important character concerning the government's attitude toward unemployed or toward Negroes can be

won in the court along. An inseparable part of a struggle such as this must be the mass demonstrations. And it's only during these mass demonstrations that you're able to give to the people generally a picture of how the Police Act. And also that the courts will pay some attention if the demonstrations are large enough. It's true that in the sack of Anthony case there were tremendous demonstrations and the men died but not without leaving their imprint on American history. It's true it's true. It's true in all of the cases. As I say sent there to the mothers to Europe. There were demonstrations all over Europe.

There were demonstrations in Latin and South America. There were demonstrations in fact all over the world. Protest movements that are organized. So when I see the demonstrations that are taking such as is taking place today in Berkeley Berkeley on the university campus I feel very much in heart and yes I'd like to get back to that later also. But I did want to ask you about the relationships between black and white warriors during the time that this move was that was building wasn't there something in relation to the case of Angelo and that involved that kind of encounter. Yes. Angelo Herndon case was

also a case that came out of the Hoover. Hoover crisis days and you are in him I think was 17 years old when he went into the mines to see. Later as the crisis deepened he left Hall found himself in Atlanta Georgia and there he organized a demonstration of whites and negroes together. Probably the first of its kind after the popular movement. And. They demonstrated before the city hall. He made a speech on city hall stairs. I went down and was able after strenuous efforts to secure

a white lawyer came from one of the most important firms in Richmond and asked. As I recall for every trainer. And I gave him $800. Just before I left some negro spoke to me about a young man by the name of Benjamin J Davis Jr. Ben Davis is Father was the national committeeman for the state of Georgia the Republican Party. Ben had drowned you graduated from Amherst and gone to Harvard and taken his law at Harvard. He had come back past the bar in Virginia and in Georgia. Now let me get this straight he was black. He was black. Yes. I went over and I asked Ben what he like to

be an associate counsel in the case. I said to him. Chief Counsel is a man I've just paid given a retainer to but I would like you to come into the case if you feel like it. He said he would. This was one of the first cases that he had after graduating from law. I went over to the office of the attorney who would have been the attorney of record and I said to him I'd like to have Ben Davis a young negro lawyer associated with you in the trial of this case. And he answered me. Well he can carry my books in. He said I'm taking a negro cation jeopardizing my career in doing that. He said All right you go into any court in the state

with an eagle as co-equal. He said I would do status white people would have nothing more to do with me. He said I couldn't do it. So I told him that being the case I'm going to put Mr. Davis in charge of that offense. We lost that $800 but I left there and didn't give the $800 back. Give us an act like one cent Well he wasn't with the growing from the case. I was taking him out of the case again. And he felt that it ended us win and we won. One after years of struggle. It also was one of the great cases in which tremendous demonstrations over the country and abroad were organized. How how did you do

over a period which now it stretches for about 40 years. I'm sure that you were not able to involve yourself in so many cases of this sort without some jeopardy. To yourself. What has happened to you. I mean how did you happen to decide to be this and do this. And as strange as it may seem I came into these struggles. Through the cycle vents any case and not through the fight for legal rights. I was. Quite unsettled and said he case a broken one thousand twenty one. I. I wasn't in the country and after I

had returned and set up an office when this case came up by reading a brochure that Felix Frankfurter who later became a justice of the Supreme Court wrote a brochure called the cycle of unsteady case I read it. It declared the men to be innocent and more. It declared that it was a conspiracy between the leading figures in the state of Massachusetts and in the Department of Justice. I. I called a number of meetings in the office with other attorneys with side the firm which I was associated. And raised very sharply the question that a negro should involve himself in the case in which the issue of Negro rights was not present. That it is it would be

an immoral thing for us to believe Sacco and Vanzetti innocent without coming to their defense. We need lawyers with whom I talked. Well at that time. Concerned only with those issues which the need was involved and said that I was a fool and they wouldn't go. And I went and broke up my firm as a matter of fact. But after cycle and steady eye I saw clearly that it wasn't only Negroes who were being done to death around issues involving constitutional rights but white men who are supporting Labor in Labour's struggle. We're also well placed in the same

position that a negro if he was true to himself had to be in such a case. One of the things that drove me to was that I graduated from Hastings College in San Francisco and got all the University of California that make up my law there. And it was during the period of the money case. And I met with and you know Whitney a very great woman white one. I met with her in a bookstore in San Francisco and we got to talking and she asked me if I knew anything about the money case and I said no and she told me that that was the case and which aren't interest myself even though I wasn't out of college yet. And negroes talk me out of it friend said that I should get involved in

those cases I should finish my law studies take the bar become a figure fighting for legal rights here. And I didn't go into the money case. And really it was an act of that weighed on my conscience very greatly. I did later have the opportunity of making a real fight family's life. When Roosevelt was president president elect but it was these were the it was the only case which I failed to go into. And second when gays which I did go into when I was arrested three times. It made me see that a lawyer who now you could be in the profession to make money somehow or other

money never made such an appeal to me. Or you could be a new in the profession to make of it a weapon in the struggle that the people were making for a better standard of living and so on. And that if I were going to stay in law this had to be the course that I would follow. I would make my life one which I would make every effort possible to expose. Lynch justice whether it happened to white or black. And there's this feeling the one way you get yourself into more and more trouble more and more. If you want to call it trouble I think I've lived a

very interesting life. I would value doubt I have. I should have thought that you might have been in considerable personal danger on occasion going into the southern states with such cases and so on where. Yes I've been threatened with lynching several times I was run out of. George you're doing right. Scott's world out of Alabama during the Scottsboro days have been arrested a number of times. Spend some time in a penitentiary. But I think that one has to expect that if they are going into struggles of this kind. Do you see progress because many of the things that you've described are still

reports that come out of the ghettos of our great cities and are not. Not all the cases of injustice that one hears about are confined to black people. And I'm wondering you know here and there and everywhere is sort of translate itself into my mind then and now and all will is or are. What what is your overall view of all of the difference its differences and if so what what constitutes the difference between the time when you were taking your defendants into the courts and Harlem in the 20s and the late 60s. I would say that is a very considerable difference in the two

periods. I think that you would find today a you know almost all of the ghettos of America. Only God is in motion you know action fighting for his rights. He has however broadened his vision a number of the organizations such as core organizations led by Amos Reverend King Martin Luther King. These are organizations which not only see the necessity for Negroes to fight for their own rights in this country but to move into the arena of struggle generally. The struggle for peace. So on there today there are tens of thousands of needles in struggle and there are perhaps

many more whites. The unfortunate thing is that the struggles are not being merged. I don't think that we're going to win any concessions of any importance from the men who rule this country unless we have unity between black and white. This is the key to a successful struggle in America for the rights still the millions who are living in poverty and deprivation. The majority of whom are white. White people in the Appalachian area. White people in the slums of all of our large cities until they understand.

The fight being made by Negroes is against the same forces social forces and there must be unity. Neither one of us can win. And yes it will. One can't avoid a measure of understanding for the negro young people who don't feel that way. And there are some today and you know the frustration whatever of whatever the the roots may be just as there are whole segments of the young white community which is withdrawing from the and hell or hell or has already withdrawn from the establishment. So are there groups of. Young black people and the ghettos everywhere including in this locality

who have ceased to believe that they can get justice. So on through the normal or channel normal I don't know. That's an awful word because it has never been normal. Through the regular channels of of the law and so on people like the youngsters who went to Sacramento with their shotguns and you know with the whole you know the situation is probably better than I am. How do you feel those elements are going to be incorporated or are they. I mean are the courts for example in your view now sufficiently liberalized from the days when you started out so that the political processes the legal processes on which this country is based can be made to

function through that difficult period that we're going through now and that is ahead of us. It's my opinion that the liberal liberalization of the American courts state or federal to the degree that. Black men or white youths who are fighting for a better America and get their rights is a long way ahead. The injustice in our courts has two very prominent features. It's class justice which means very definitely that when the issue of rights is

concerned the white working class white label will not get its right. And on the other hand it's racist which means that there is no such thing as equal justice for any class. Now it's also beginning to be political in one sense of the word. And you know it is it is very much a political question well law is politics by other means anyway. There are groupings such as the Panthers the Black Panthers for self-defense who do think that all whites are guilty of a desire to murder to get rid of blacks

and that they are no whites who can be trusted. This is a very very grave mistake and one that must be corrected. The correcting of it is difficult at the moment because there are many of these lads who feel that the older generation of Negroes have not fought back and that they therefore cannot listen to them. And they want to go it alone. I wouldn't criticize. The panthers. I think their course cannot lead to a permanent victory. But I think that they are not only they not only feel frustrated

but they have been very deeply influenced by movements that are developing. You know other countries such as you know very very much influenced by the manner in which Castro TIENE control of the government and economy of Cuba. They are very much influenced by Mao Tse-Tung His teachings of guerrilla warfare. And I think that these lessons can be applied to the American scene and they can proceed along the same route. I think this is a fallacy I think it's a terrible pharmacy. Let's not analyse it which is confined to black people either.

You know if it is a fallacy. I mean I also you know as one of those people above 30 who can her cannot be trusted. I find that it's extremely difficult to know. I think for example that right now on the University of California faculty the faculty members who are against the war in Vietnam who are supporting the draft resisters this is a very difficult position to be in because in every political arc kid seems to me in every arc of history there are extremists of both hands. And the danger for the people in the middle is that because they're so frightened or so disapproving of the extremes render themselves impotent.

And this seems to me to be the decision which is facing large segments of the total community black white Mexican-American. The whole lot today. There there are the brutal cops. There can be unfair justice. There are the kids who will lose their head and heads and do things which may be unwise now. You know what what is the my my personal view is that you have to abide with this and continue to represent what what you believe in other words you don't abandon these people because they are an inevitable part of the process. Now what. What is your attitude. No I wouldn't abandon the three four. As a matter of fact I would be very very

careful in my criticism of him. I think that the faculty members who are participating in the fight for peace are a heroic group of men and women. I think they don't see the interrelationship between them and the negro lads who are fighting on another front. But both of these are fighting the same foe. And I think they must recognize this and I think that they must to see clearly that unless they do recognize this neither one can win. No. As to the negro lads I don't like the term extremists. Well I mean the people who were in the last analysis for example will resort to violence which according to all the liberal standards and passive standards and so on it's

you know under no circumstances does one do this for example in the recent demonstrations as you know there were two groups that could be very distinctly identified the people who felt that the way to fight this was to go and sit down quietly and be quietly arrested and quietly go to jail and quietly come out again. And then there were other groups which felt justified in moving concrete trees in the middle of the street. Try to try to stop the trucks ad and have this kind of teeter tottering back and forth between these you know and the tendency it seems to me the person particularly the middle class Christian. Who has been able to avoid violence because of economic and cultural. Advantages tends to be pretty frightened

of the groups that feel otherwise and yet aren't they. Historically in editable I mean aren't there always going to be people who are who are not going to abide by all the nice polite rules which. Well let me put the question in another way. There are values which we have created in the society which are certainly worth salvaging. I mean there are basic elements of constitutional law as defined for example by Alex Mickel John and so on. Which are which are valid ideas and yet we seem to be heading into a period which to all intents and purposes might just as well be called Revolution.

How best can what values we have that are good survive this process and bring us out a better and a stronger at. Nation and world that we have such values. It's true that we live by them. It's not it's not true yet. Therefore they serve a useful purpose only to the extent that you can mobilize people to fight for them. I don't think these are lads who are members of the Black Panthers want or any other elite group of youngsters want to use violence.

As a matter of fact I don't think they're violent. He was initiated by the forces of the left. You see. These lads who have find no virtue in the activities of their parents have not only very little knowledge of the past history of the struggle for American democracy. But they don't want to study that. And they have an idea that the American government will never give them equality of rights. So that they it is not difficult to pervade to prevail upon them to take what steps they feel are necessary to secure it. But violence

emerges from the forces of government and police brutality. And I'm talking with some of these lads now and I tell them that the police are not your main enemy. The police carry out their attacks under the direction and generally of the administrative branch of government. You must look deeper. Than just the police. I. Know. Some of the struggles that are going on. A struggle going on today at the University I think is a very excellent training ground. I think the participants begin to see much further after having been in a struggle of this kind where the police have intervened

to prevent freedom of speech or freedom of the press or for whatever reason they are brought out against these lads. I think they are the demonstrators that are beginning to see that the. Something is. Wrong with the whole system. That it was found and fundamental change has to be made. I and I think that those of us who are who have been through some of these struggles have to have a very great deal of patience in trying to. Give these words the history of the struggle in America. We come out of revolution. We who are Americans. We've had two

great revolutionary sages. One that gave form to our country as a republic. 1776 and the other which brought about the end of formally the end of slavery. And we've had many struggles on the industrial front. You've had many political struggles. A populist movement developed in our country. The struggle is not new to Americans but they have been defeated on each instance and been defeated me in the main because we are not a united people. And many of us see our own problems. As not related to or to.

Problems that are confronting others who are struggling. They don't see that white and black in America have by virtue of our historical development. Got to be united. Well I gather from from the from the things you said and also from the glimpses of the history of your own life that you do believe. You have used. Let's put it this way a combination of going through the procedural channels in other words going to the courts but backing that up with as much popular support and so on to force fundamental changes as it's possible to get. I mean that that appears to have been the method you have used. Is that a method you think is still valid. I mean this is this is not an idle question. I

know it. I would say that. I firmly believe. That we should work for a peaceful transition to a different society to a socialist society. I think that. If we cannot attain it peacefully. We must not refrain from violence. I wouldn't say that violence in the United States is inevitable. I mean crying sometimes to think that it is. But as you watch the movement particularly in 1967. There have been more strikes struggles more struggles on the labor front. You know our country and we've had for the last 10 years.

And this is at a moment when we call America an affluent society. No. The struggles that are going on Earth thought of school students are learning that too. I think that there was a demonstration here the other day in which some of the white students spoke about I said City to support negro lads. I think the negro lads who were suspended after the breaking in of the editorial office of one of the papers found a very very great support on the comp campus. So that my thinking is that

if we don't have a fundamental change brought about peaceably it will not be the fault of these lads who are being called extremists. They're frustrated. Their lads generally you had no part in the labor struggle. You wouldn't call them lumpenproletariat but they have never worked. And they know little of the history of our country and their lads who just refused to take what their fathers and mothers took. And who all want what their fathers and mothers wanted in the case of the one I want with their mummy cases. The middle class whites the rejection is as much of the affluence and so on. Yes as it is on the other side of the need the Irish are. I

I think you're talking about when you threw out the hippies. Well not just exclusively the hippies although they come into it I think. But in many ways I feel that we get many of those people into the studio that there's a pretty thorough going rejection of the standard of affluence as being the thing that they're after in this in this world. I mean even even the anti draft demonstrations the pacifist demonstrations these are none of them things which increase your opportunity to succeed. And he acts that with the establishment and yet they're doing it. So that there's there's some process perhaps of equalization of the of the white standards of materialism and the negro demand for sufficiency that are coming somewhere near each other in a way.

Yes I think they are. I think that the hippies are an expression of a lack of purpose to our lives. That they are revolting against this influence which their fathers might have attained. But I don't think they see the roots of the struggle I think they are evading. I struggle and I I think it's only one of the movements which has no permanency and will pass. I think that many of the kids out of their experience will be caught at home revolutionary. It's quite possible. In other words I think to some up. That. You would like to see the changes in which you believe come about peacefully but that you have great certainty that if they do not come about

peacefully they will in any event no matter how long it takes them about their money long about the marriage they know that you have devoted your life and there is no other way. There is no other way to save America. Thank you very much Mr. Patterson. I thank you.