The church and Berkeley School integration

This is a special radio panel discussion regarding the role of organized religion in the decision by the Berkeley Board of Education to integrate the city's elementary schools beginning this September. The guest panelists are Reverend James comfort Smith of the St. Johns Presbyterian Church. Reverend Paul Shaffer Lutheran Church of the cross. Dr. Arthur Thurman of the Epworth Methodist Church. Reverend George Pittman St. Mark's Episcopal Church and Dr. Robert McKenzie St. John's Presbyterian. My name is Douglas Beecham. In our society the church often plays an important role in the formation of public opinion on various matters. The specific question at hand is to what extent did the church in Berkeley influence public opinion in favor of accepting educational integration. And what problems came up to inhibit its effectiveness. The story of educational integration in Berkeley has been the subject of numerous published accounts in many media. There have been a considerable broadcast coverages in radio and television and even

doctoral theses have dealt with this subject in considerable depth. The last decade has seen the development of a very effective community and educational work groups which have been instrumental in bringing about major changes in the complection of the Berkeley School Board and administration in general. A coalition of negroes and liberal whites has succeeded in replacing the former conservative orientation to educational philosophy with one which is more liberal and humanitarian. In order to understand how this was accomplished almost every area of possible concern has been probed accept the role of the church. The first question I would like to ask of our gentleman is what has been the general attitude of members of your congregation is regarding integration in the last 10 or 15 years who has been here this long anyway. I've been here about 12. I think it can be summarized in one word mixed. And this is

a long standing problem we have people in the car geishas who say I'm glad our pastor feels able to talk about it but I don't agree with the other hand on the other hand of saying I'm glad to hear it. He should say more about it. So we go from one extreme to the other. And this is been the case. I've been around longer than than any of you I guess I've I've completed 14 years in Berkeley now and I think that I would say you know speaking through all of my gray hairs and all this kind of thing where I have seen a growing openness as I think I'd call it mixed with some real fear as people who probably originally wouldn't have brought up the idea of integrated schools and churches even before begin to realize that this is the way of the future in our own case. This is the fear that some people continue to have of course greatly heightened I think

by the recent school board decision regarding integrating the Berkeley School leads of some folk to move out over the hill to the lily white are more or less a lily white suburb. I was going to ask him whether this is a growing acceptance as a function of. Changing plan tell by voluntary voluntary change when different people come into the church you may know from those that came once and different people moving into the city as you have people moving to as you say the lily white suburbs were getting. I kind of person coming into Berkeley that is quite different from those used to live here. I think to an extent but I have to say only to an extent. For example as you as you look at these periodic groups of new members not as large as they once were Incidentally it seems to me in the church generally these days but these folk who usually come and stand before the corrugation to join the church. I still ca. I think about the same proportion of younger couples at least our

own situation at St. John's that I saw a good many years ago. I think the age level of our own congregation knows going mean older or younger going down into the younger age levels going down. I'll be more liberal than you think Jim in terms of the attitude toward integration. Yes well yes I I think probably my experience with it is as it is would indicate that the on the average people who are coming into the church now do tend to be more liberal in this matter of race. Just I think because generally speaking the whole of white society I think is more liberal with with some of the obvious exceptions with which we're all familiar. I cried a few exceptions to that. Here Jim let me ask you this do you think that they the way we handle Proposition 14 or the flavor left in the mind to that and in the mouths of the public as to how the church stood on Proposition

14 formed any preliminary or prepared a way towards the way these congregations are now handling the immigration business to the end. Yes I don't see how we can we can escape that dramatic. It might in certain cases brought in more liberal people more liberal on this whole because what I did there was a liberal stand taken on 14. I first noticed it partly I think on this 14 we lay the groundwork for a lot of things this point many of the clergy were signing statements and the sort of thing and at least in the current issue which I served they came to accept the fact that a minister could as a citizen scientists go door to door campaigning on the school board recall to give the Bush school board to do these things on his own as as a member of this community. Many accepted this

and the whole of the confort church council the church council. I went ahead and recommended to the car geisha this thing of Proposition 14. And we had several letters about it but we had no no one leave the church. We developed an unusual ability for people to accept other people's views at this point and I think one of the things that helped was a Sunday morning seminar we had. I think that simply preaching doesn't do it anymore. Do you have these other programs seminars and people were studying this proposition we had speakers in from community and otherwise I would have a public debate with the president of the California realty board at that time at the campus center and he happened to be a member of the congregation and this kind of thing went on. I think a very interesting switch occurred in the church because of

the Proposition 14. You will recall I think I write as if I'm not I know you guys are not above correcting me and I would leave that all up and down the state of California by and large though I say by and large the church was fighting Proposition 4 to what I mean fighting it or for it. Very confusing history isn't it. Anyway we got clobbered so far as a church Yeah but you know it's right they were fighting Proposition 14 wasn't this it. And of course the church got clobbered. The public voted rather resoundingly in favor of Proposition 14 including a lot of people. Yeah but now comes the switch. You see the interesting thing is that I I think the church grew greatly or in a manner of speaking profited by this because I think that while a few people you know kind of peeled out of the church's ranks at this point because they were angry I can point to two or three in our own situation but not too many more than that. I think a lot of people who had sort of decided that the church was worth writing off only was for the birds suddenly realized that churches

were willing to stand up and speak their piece even if it might mean loss of people loss of income and all this and I think that this may come back to what you asked a while ago if I read your question. That there is a somewhat different kind of or a certain percentage I would say of more liberal people more open people coming into the church now because they've gained a little respect for it was that some put away asked the question yeah you know how much but how has the church since Proposition 14 a clear and apparently clear cut issue how have we since that time stood up for anything particularly. I had say you do this or you go out or we recommend you do this. I don't I haven't seen what I've seen as more of individuals and other going their way and recommending this and others saying OK that's the way you feel. I don't feel that way but we've had something of an acceptance of varying points of view and still saying All right we're not going to excommunicate you if you I

don't feel this way. You're still a part of the church. Well from my perspective I think this is a much more healthy situation. I think the Catholic concept in the sense that we do recognize now a divergent viewpoint even on social issues within the life of the church I think the the battle on Proposition 14 should have taught the clergy something at the point that we do not marshal all of our congregation down a particular line. And I think we I hope we've learned something out of this but I think the more fundamental thing that we did learn was what you previously said that is there can be divergence of viewpoint and we don't tear ourselves apart when there is a difference. The other comment that I should like to make in terms of the integration issue in relationship to 14 the school integration issue is that I think the Proposition 14 was cutting across a much larger spectrum of our society that of all ages. And I think on the school issue we were dealing with younger parents. And I would assume more liberal in their viewpoint and I think this is one aspect as to why.

We've been able to work it through here along with other factors. I'd like to ask a question about this. Following up what Paula said. Do you think that the clergyman or churchmen have supported been behind the school integration with the same fervor and dedication that they were behind 14 and if not why not. I mean a smaller percentage I think in our meeting with the intergroup office people we found that it was a smaller percentage. For instance I've been attending with my with my wife these open board meetings which were held in the auditorium of the various schools. And I I wasn't aware that that clergymen were represented there at all. Well there were public meetings well advertised and dealing with substantial issues and a lot of citizens got up and spoke and at the last meeting who are the vote was taken by the board among the 25 or so speakers I

was the only clergyman there to speak. And I was there because I was invited to be by one of our congregation. And it struck me that. The clergymen were conspicuously absent there and I wondered why clergymen haven't felt this to be a fairly substantial issue upon which they ought to make comment. I wonder if they don't have many young children no matter all grown up and weighed well by wonder. Well speaking for myself and of course you and I sort of on the same staff I knew that you were that you were there that you would keep cluing me into what was going on. We we have to have a certain division of labor around the premises of St. John's and so that that happens to have been a local situation but let's leave I wonder I wonder whether I'm not sure that was a conversion that sort of us whatever that sort of confession. And I wonder I wonder whether the reason a lot of clergymen were not there is that

they don't I think I speak for myself here somewhat honestly. The school authorities seem to be pretty obviously in favor of the of the integration procedure you know the busing and so on that that has been worked out. The superintendent certainly has been very forthright about this and I think I for one felt as though in good times he was going to pass and move along. That it did not in fact require you know my getting in too much into it. Well I just signed a petition backing superintendent Sullivan after the Berkeley Gazette reported in bold headlines 200 people who were against this thing were going to oppose it. This was never identified who were not people not about the Chronicle to this some small group of BN caucus and I think in various houses various neighborhoods. I know in the Thousand Oaks area had and so a counter petition was put around to give support so in a

sense even though we know that they are in favor of it they kind of need a little support in the background to know that they still have somebody with them and they can't be out there in left field all by themselves. I'm sorry. Yes along this line you mentioned that you signed a petition and we talk about going to meetings public meetings and so forth. I'm very interested to learn if you gentlemen here present or if you know of any other notable examples among your colleagues where you have made it a point to bring the question of integration out in your churches whether through sermons or discussion groups or whatever. But to emphasize it as a always been called a Christian imperative or a moral issue. Would you respond to that please. Well when the plan was first submitted are these several plans and

one of those was to be chosen. We had a public meeting in our fellowship hall of the church. It was attended I suppose by some 80 or 90 people half of whom were from our congregation the others were from the neighborhood. This was under the sponsorship of the Christian social concerns group of our church. It was not however to to champion a particular plan but I think the very fact of holding it indicated the concern on the part of this group within the church that it should be confronted by members of the congregation and anyone in the community who would want to come to get in on the discussion. It was interesting to me that much as many of the questions that rotated about the discussion that night centered on economics that is what was going to cost more than the moral issue. I think that's a dodge for the moral issue.

I think supply may well be there but I didn't do social concerns committee sign or take public action in support of the border seems to me yesterday did they did that. But this was a group again was in the life of the church. Most would assume within the church would although I would say that represented far more than himself but certainly not the entire congregation. But one contribution the church has made which is a rather unusual kind of contribution has been a film which received a nomination for the cademy award for documentaries. However they were doing to Anderson company about Vietnam but this was a film called A Time for burning and concerned a situation in Omaha Nebraska. And the principal pastor involved was and George will say this is a commercial but is now a member of the establishment. I thought Bill Young at Heart. And so this has been shown in school assemblies it's been

used in starting and discussions at these meetings that the school board has been having and it's not a story of success but a story of failure. And it's kind of an unusual way to approach the problem and to look at this and I think it has a very. Compelling message and one in which one which you can go from and hopefully how some success and I would let me ask you something Paul because you've noted this film to be an example of failure not success no failure not success in this sense beings it's a failure in in the sense that we did not achieve some liberal stand for our congregation to take with some unanimity on the other hand harking back to something else you said. If this were the first step for this congregation to have realized that it's got to be a kind of a forum with a unity that's beneath all kinds of differences and promotes enormous diversity. This may be a spectacular kind of success contributing not only to the Christian cause

but to our own democratic way of life. If this can happen in one little unit or segment of the community then by golly maybe we've got time to contribute to the whole business of social change quite a different thing from being able to mobilize a whole troop of people and marching you know with banners nobody says yes yes yes which of course you can get Richard. I think I think very centrally that the church by and large has spoken pretty much with one voice on what on this on this whole matter of integration in the whole racial tension that lies. You know that underlies the crisis in the cities in the rest of it. The church where I mean Berkeley he has been in Berkeley right now although I suspect that he you know the National Council of Churches stands on all this is very clear. So I think that and I've ignored him beyond this and following up what you say that it's beyond a liberal focal liberal churches to I think increasingly the the conservative out churches as I read their journals are beginning to grapple with this and along the

same line that you're suggesting. I think I think all of us as a local church mood representing the local churches have been involved in really preparing our people for this kind of thing pushing it as a matter of fact I think if you check back on our preaching we may not have you know preached a sermon on integration question yes or no. But I think that we have that well some of us have done this. I've done the next thing to remind you of a kind of a kind of a pushing the kind of I'm pushing for. The point of view and stance of integration has been obvious I think I think it's been a very one sided if you will sort of book that stance that's been taken in Berkeley and I think that almost every churches would be together and I think we should say somewhere I was I wanted to say something after your introduction Doug that the church is a. How did you put it up. Has a lot of influence or something like this happen on social issues

so shot just in Berkeley. Have shown that we really don't we talk in the church I think in terms of individuals I think in what George was saying and getting this idea that people can tolerate other people's point of view we can't mobilize the whole Church in one direction. If we get some individuals to do something and be the church in the situation either at these meetings that you've attended or this kind of thing we see we see that as some success as far in mobilizing vast numbers of people. That's just not so. I would like to ask you in recent history has there been a some point in time where there has been a shift from a predominantly scripture oriented sort of classical. Approach to Christian morality more toward the one which is integrated with a humanitarian philosophy.

And if I make myself very clear who just says there is something that is on the line were it were sort of transitions over from our same a Jesus was a real man as a kind of his you were talking about well that you talk about that hour as a three hour and a half program one nation indivisible thing with the two clergy were very everything sort of swinging humanitarian Roman Catholic humanitarianism a very liberal type of run again I think and then you had this happen. But I don't think he was a Baptist he didn't represent represent a very conservative Bible spouting point of view any of these people couldn't care less about scripture you just quoting scripture out of you know John apes in theaters I'm like this is there is there some point in recent history where you say like I was saying was it say nine hundred fifty one thousand nine hundred sixty year or 18. Ninety five it's something like point time which would you sort of sense yourself and there are sort of.

You can your own feeling your own presentation. Generally speaking we say that that the radical evidence of this begins with about 1960 or so at least in terms of the way it was being spoken. I think within the church and so. What kind of influence is known in that regard. I don't get to question. Well I think the question Jeff George put in and language that we understand. When did we shift from any Spaza Torii kind of sermon or you know exposition of the scripture. I think our purpose is to a social concerns kind of writing exactly that that kind of shift you know and I think maybe the question is a valid one like I haven't been in the business long enough to know when it took place or if it did take place. I think it would be difficult to pinpoint really. I think Bahnhof for the world has come of age this sort of. Phraseology has begun to capture the minds of the U.S. particularly but also

many ministers and I think this emphasis stand upon the humanitarian Jesus the man for all occasions that sort of thing but to pinpoint in terms of date I'm not sure it could be time you know I would also have to say though that I think I think probably along with this is come more Biblical preaching we had before. You know people may argue and I just say that I think that I think that maybe for the first time in a long while along with this abuses the man of the world sort of business is coming more biblical approach to preaching what we're what we're laying aside his name is a wrecked topic a sort of a decision that you kind of have their way where we took it where we where we took a topic and developed a sermon around a topic I think that's what's what's sort of going down the road at this time but sermons we talk about sermons aimed at ethical or social change now and this defeats me and that they were maybe just a recovery of Rauschenbusch is sort of stuff in the mid 20s the gospel seems to be just with the new mode.

But those liberals turn out to be not a liberal. I mean I think that many of former Liberals are known to have pulled back. They talk a good line but when it comes to involving their children. I have a remarkable experience. Two months ago on the university campus our Presbytery met up there and one of the things that John Hazell did at this Presbyterian Meeting was have students talk to ministers about their concerns. Why are they involved in the way they are involved. And all afternoon the ministers try to indict these kids for their involvement and all afternoon these kids kept tossing back in their teeth. They're not in Biblical citations at all the legal injunction. It's really really quite radical I think probably for the first time these guys begin to see how all radical a biblical insight is and I think Jim's point is really

well taken that not a sound liberalism if you will a sound approach to social involvements when the church is sounder if it can if it takes advantage of the Biblical imperative if you will. Well it's a curious thing because I don't understand this really I see this in the Old Testament in the prophetic line in all this where there's a real well last part of the scripture Gargantua Yes but the big but the big Outremer so many Bible quoting people is what I think I understand the New Testament the far more theologically and pastorally oriented and socially oriented just that particular period of Christianity and that they were in a position to try to change society. So it should stay with the New Testament which is holy if you want to be you know and it can be what we would call irrelevant social problems I mean we're just not I don't understand reading a lot individual and I think already it seems to me let me just make this point to what he's saying here it seems to me they're going to go to the cleansing of the temple and women.

No really what anybody really is really applied but it wasn't really one sharp enough to go to. George I think you know I think I think the point is that we OK here I think the point is that with all the money I think the point is the Jesus was a very radical socially oriented guy himself. Now obviously he doesn't assess things in terms of his own history you know. But I think that there's all kinds of radicalism in his you know his approaches to the the the status quo of his own like a battered arsenal of convention and this was in a kind of a side room kind of a splinter movement but it had a banner saying the radical Jesus is winning. Who then was yours I think. Well which Jews issue I mean not the Pauline or the John and Jesus. Actually again tomorrow we're getting into a very interesting theological discussion here. Getting back to the body that you that I basically write this is the basis you see where I've come back I

have to come back to this because you're all hope and I think little centered really and at least in conscience we're haunted by. Does the Bible point us to affecting social change and how and what part of the Bible. Because there's a lot of the Bible it sure doesn't. You know we're discovering the old testament and new I think that at least and I think that in refining We're coming to say I was our Lord's Bible time and I think this is quite a new idea it was a shocker to you that it was to me when I first read you realize yes this is fair. You got his point of view. No matter who did what with what they quoted him saying. Yeah because it's really really you know it's just this is very interesting to me of course. All right thank you Carol. Water changes this is very interesting now because to a person like myself who quite frankly I am not a regular churchgoer will show you that I want a former Episcopalian.

Well your was your yes thank you notes. One continually runs into into conservative defenses of segregation on the basis of biblical scripture and I think to many people this is a stereotype sort of reference system too to say in defense of the morality of. My guess is though that that is a thing of the past at least in the world in which we live here in the church but not on the side of the child so I deliberately made the birthweight share it well let's not call it Super Bowl except for the pastor of the largest church in the country and the First Baptist Church of don't know that there were first commercials. Your quote you Scripture all over the place of course to support it. You know segregation which you know in connection with the Supreme Court decision in 1954 when this specific matter of race discrimination on the basis of race came up. Somebody in the Federal Council or church or national council churches circulated or sent telegrams to you know Bruner barred neighbor all over the world and said Is there any

basis for this in the Bible and all came back negative. All came back negative and there's no there's no such thing. Point of view of discrimination on the basis of race that we can get out of Scripture right now from from a Scriptural basis. The ethical approach to two integration would like to ask you the more mundane question and that is that from your own experience when when integration was discussed as an issue as a moral issue and whatever form it took. What what kind of resistance patterns did you find within your congregation is taking place. I once cut pledges suddenly stealing away a little how significant wasn't one little lady said to me when I called on her you know to try to bring her back into the fold. You have ruined my city. There were there were there were I think a lot of the reasoning reactions and some anger

reaction because people were afraid. You're always going to bring up anger. I don't know and in this community there is a very large interest in education and believing that if you are educated you can and you can do anything and this is how you succeed in the world and you must be educated to the highest extent possible. And I think the most common reaction and I think many Negroes have picked up the cue right now on this problem and that is what about the quality of the education our children are going to have. Can they be fooling around with this social business of knowing other people are experiencing when the black community or the white community experiences. So what maybe they ought to you know is get their education. And this is important and I think that the school board now is getting getting. Slashed from both the negro and the white on this issue.

Yeah someday some black man got out front of us once it did not longer. You have three hundred years to pay for your attitude you have towards you don't deserve to have your you're reading average stay up as high as it is for a while it may have to suffer you but I mean I think he's right he's right I think. I think we have to risk that I don't think it's as great a risk as people imagine. And I think that being human is more important and I think that for instances FIBA can't demand from Cao who is saying that this kind of education can be dehumanizing and I think we saw what happened in Hitler's Germany when it was very in use white only when they got the all the privilege of education to make them better people. This is a real question. So you're saying that continuing desegregation is dehumanizing. Or are you saying that that high grade. It's purely intellectual

education can lead to humanizing if it doesn't also bring in the facts of life you might already miss our diverse society. I'm saying integration is more important. You know that you're too interesting at reactions that I've observed are widespread but there they may be indicative of something. Two families in church in this community which I want to then if I send their girls off to Catholic schools in Oakland. That's one reason I've noticed this private schools are having a real moon these Then they say they come from a very conservative congregation in this community. Second reaction is that there is there are a number of predictions of the coming apocalypse next year like you know the decision has been made and we shouldn't. We know that the school board is working for this but just wait till the well it when it actually happens next year that the storms are going to break wide open next year and I think the

white riots you need things like that. I don't know what they have in mind but there seems to be among some of our more conservative members a kind of hidden fear or maybe even an expectation that. There's going to be some dire times ahead. But maybe maybe a hope and maybe a hope to I don't I don't know. Let me ask you Is there any typical pattern within your congregation where you find certain elements in your congregation tend to be resistant to to this plan that is coming up more so than others and what what are the characteristics what would you say would identify these groups Marsal and other what plans or other Oh no no no just be resistant to reason things to to elementary school integration for say oh it's got to be said maybe First of all there's a certain age differentiation here. I think generally speaking people who are older and more sot in their ways and the old expression are a bit

less and claimed it to accept the new isn't I disagree. True I disagree. OK good. Well I just disagree. Some of the older people have more time to listen to mass media and are more up with changes in what's right. You didn't want to call them on their LLC. Sure but I said I said been large in our lives a choice among our oil wells by and large the reticle people art they tend to be younger the gell wonder if that's true though Jim. Well I think that my degrees are examination what do you mean by younger I think the people in the thirty five forty five fifty. Yeah I guess so I don't know of course we're talking about the very people that have kids that are concerned in this and obviously obviously there are some of those that are that are pushed out of shape but I still think that. Remember I say by and large these people are more able to accept a new idea than those who are quite a few say 20 years older. The problem in trying to assess our own corrugations response so is that. A number the people who are most vocal about us about this thing don't live in Berkeley and really haven't been part of the

discussion and haven't really don't really don't have an informed view is that it. That is to say they haven't really grappled with the issue and they're still kind of reacting to it viscerally. And it seems to me that that in my mind at least I have to keep laws reminding myself that all the people who speak about this in our congregation are not really grappling with it in terms of their own kids. And do you speak when you're saying this are you speaking of those who tend to be against it. Yeah I think so. How are you saying the people who who have children and personally involved this would tend to be on what side of the fence now and who are living in Berkeley and who have been through the discussions over the last couple of years. I think I've noticed some remarkable movement toward accepting the idea yes I think so. And I think this schools have done a remarkable job much better than the church

in discussions in workshops and having people competent people from the University of California their own people leading in this whole matter of integration starting with the junior high integration and going from there. There are some churchmen even now they are doing it and said maybe the church is on a starter course in Negro history well but they have been doing this for years and they've been having on the University of California brought in lectures from all over the country. This sort of thing. So I think they've been doing an outstanding job the churches have I think caught some of that mound. I've picked up a lot from you know you are asked the question what kind of people favor this move by a school board now is that you know actually my first question is What types of people in your congregations if they can be identified by any sort of ethnic group would tend to be most resistant

and wife you know. Well I would say this is sui generous been is that the kind of people who are resistant or the kind of people who are resistant and it comes from all the different all the different categories. Thank you. I just heard right. I really think this is the year everybody has his own right. I think any group that you can you can denominate otherwise by age or income or what have you you'll find all kinds of splits on this. You're saying I think that's really a very playable it are against integration or against any kind of cheese or against the university there. I mean well that may be an overlap there but I think that you get an elderly group and you'll find them divided on those who get rich or poor group you know all this. I think the handsome group set a very in Berkeley I guess maybe true. So I'm not sure we're going to be very helpful. We're in a heterogeneous community rather than a homogeneous community. I think this is a very important point and heterogeneity is vertical And just ahead of time what was it what impresses me the whole working with young people as much as I

do is near unanimity expressed there for integration among junior high and above. Yes but in contrast to that you go by the high school and you see a Caucasian youth and the negro use the black youth really not mixed in terms of social groupings. Yeah how do you account for that a factor in their theory in theory they're probably in favor of it but. But they're rubbing shoulders for instance. Our youth group is is pretty much all white with us. There's a variance on that and I want to discuss but I know that especially in the Bay Area you know it is interesting. Go ahead. There are there are two of our girls who come from you know up on the south campus area who date negro boys but I never see them with those negro blood is in our youth group and I would know it unless they told me that and I know for a fact that there is this that there isn't a one of them who doesn't have Negro friends but somehow this doesn't get

worked out on the campus or in a normal socializing. They think that the church would not accept this and maybe right did they feel this right here. It isn't true. Yes here they are you know and you will be sure to be a variation of it was to go really really well with a question. You want it. No I know at this particular point I'm trying to regroup my thoughts. Frankly for what you call you I was hoping we could find some nice monolithic models here. So it ain't so simple but we usually come to very we should have given you another name or two of a clergyman to have here we could have cured this I think trying to herd. I like just to just just while you're grouping your thoughts your way don't believe to raise a question about this word this word integration. I seem to sense that even with your experiences I seem to sense that it's in less and less good favor among our black brother and especially just this past Sunday during during worship we had a dialogue with with the black

clergy when he was over limbs and I was over in the other and we shot questions back and forth and I asked him this and he said he didn't like it very much he said. You speak about an integrated church and what you actually simply mean as a biracial or multiracial church. Apparently integration seems to suggest that the black man should become like the white man and of course we're always just this idea is dead and gone. How does all that into the white culture right rightest happen all the time. Now of course this is why I think this word integration isn't being bought in him or the fellow that I was talking to on some people because we just simply weren't equality there ought to be quality you know today or Senshi a show or something like that. He said it better than that I can't remember. Well there's an emphasis on blackness. That's the point. You know there this is fine there she's been I think first of all right now of searching for some sort of satisfactory self identity for the first time in history. Then you go on from there. I think there's a reason it's happened in this whole scene for a long time.

Well the real point I'm raising though is you know this word integration has been such call of course I'm never going to throw it out what were we going to use instead. I guess realistically we're really talking about desegregation aren't we. Unless we really carry on programs in very extensive and profound programs which I would have which I use my knowledge of how to desegregation That's a darn good at just plain honest human friendship. Now the ladies that corny. Yeah that's not going to happen. Yeah I think I think it's a much much less cozy than that I think we're talking about justice what is justice for all. And a sense of justice is a coinage can be considered coinage of love. If you get into that area and I think this is what they are well we should be about. If this leads to complete integration fine it leads to I think it can lead to friendship and all around us it is not true or is not going to lead to separatism to

us. Amiable sir this is ALL YOU HEAR THIS IS OUR EYES ARE an exciting and likeable severed. Well along this line and what what is the church what at least within your personal experience and those of your colleagues. What is the church doing along this line since the Christian church is purportedly an institution based upon love of the profoundest equality. John I think that one of the things the church can do in this day and age is is simply keep up with the evolving self-consciousness of the black community and attempt to understand it and to interpret what's happening there to its own constituency so that based on real knowledge and real understanding there can be an appropriate response for instance. Desire Williams The other night at our place was was making the point that because negroes black men are no longer talking about integration the

assumption is that we all go back to our ghettos and that a lot of white racists have bought this and applaud it. Well black men do their thing and white men do their thing and we don't do anything together. But he says he reminded us reminded us that this is radically non-Christian and and that if the church buys that it's simply expressing its own racist attitudes. Now it seems to me that the church has a has a need to really understand what is going on and address itself to interpret thing. What is underneath this verbiage. When the negro says we don't want to integrate did they do not mean we want to go back to our ghettos you know. And it seems to me that the church has has an obligation to continually get underneath us to find out what the dynamics of it are and to interpret to the white community insofar as we are white churches just what's the mood is

changing. What's happening now and in the minds of the black community has it has an emerging self-consciousness about what it really wants concretely it means preparing the people to accept whatever happens as the negro finds his blackness and his power economically and otherwise and telling the white community All right you're going to have to stand this you're going to have to verite even though it may be in some instances wrong we have to remember that we bear the greater part of the role in this. I think also we're going to have to turn over funds is money hard cash to their programs without any strings attached. These big conference on religion and race right now as a. The. Church is for contributions for pledges. I got a pledge of almost somewhere between forty one forty five thousand dollars. They had actual money turned in the last I heard of twelve hundred dollars. And many

churches feel that they cannot give this money without knowing where it's going what the programs are going to be. And without some strings attached and as long as we do that we're going to be in trouble. You're giving us a very very good indications I think of some of the things that the church possibly has been learning about this situation up to then has been say and it is they say that this is important right what church is only now beginning to put its money where its mouth. Yeah that sort of leads to my really rapid question for us to go around the table here. And is that not in terms of what the church should do in the future all of this is extremely important and I think it gives a lot of insights and into where we stand now and I understand it. But in your opinion just how influential has the church really been in bringing about educational integration in Berkeley. I would say from my observation that in terms of the organized church it has not played a particularly crucial role. I think it has

played a crucial role however through individuals who are members of churches. That is the church that is the church that's what I was going to say that is the church in terms of specific individuals and I think without mentioning names if you would see the persons in the administrative offices of the Berkeley school system you will see many church men and knowing two or three of them rather. Personally I think that much of their motivation and their commitment as administrators has come out of their Christian commitment. Yes I would agree with that entirely. I would not have been interested to hear Neil Sullivan Dr. Sullivan talk about integration. You know as the right thing not expedient not educationally sound as it doesn't use the rhetoric of expediency or efficiency but the rhetoric

of morality. When he talks about this and I think God the church has made an impact it has is done so on the conscience of men like him who was moving this thing. You know this this may of course be the church's only real justifiable use dance from which to speak. When when when some people accuse the Church of going off half cocked or of acting without proper knowledge or getting out of its area of expertise. They're often right I think the church often is guilty of this kind of thing but when the church speaks with a very definite word of do this thing because it is right because from from all that we understand throwing out a virgin do a Christian tradition this is the will in the mind of God to us to do it. This I think is the church's rightful stance. I think when when Dr. Sullivan speaks this way he is I hope reflecting something of what he may have done for his church as a Roman Catholic issue.

Here we often get confusion I think when we talk about the church and we have secretly in our minds as a kind of operating axiom from I don't know how many centuries back some kind of clerical voice or a hierarchical voice Protestant or Catholic church can mean the people scattered out in the community bearing their witness and making their decisions just as much as what comes from the old cold but going to Georgia the church is not a mass movement as some people would like to think. And it's. Really through individuals in the community in the world as they are gathered and scattered. I think Doug is really when he says church he means what is the pulpit saying that he wants to know whether it has any effect on society. I've been trying to find that out ourselves. I'm not sure that the mention of the effectiveness of the church right is so as as I understand what you're saying saying that the church does have probably quite a quite an ethical

influence on our society and very complex and very difficult to measure. Always share your next Episcopalian you got your conscience from the church somewhere along back here. What is right and started up the most rational of the more things we speak about we speak about not being a particularly powerful thing it may or may not be but I think that almost every church I know it was speaking a lot more ways than just from its pulpit there are all kinds of classes going on courses going on discussions going on investigations going on test groups at work which which is the church really speaking it's still preaching. We have a way of sort of smock but we have some reservations answer exactly how effective it is. Right well worries right. So we're talking about an indirect and very complex influence upon the whole fabric of our of our public life aren't we probably at all different levels. And it's it's a very fine thing that that we're not

talking about just expediency but something above and beyond that as we begin to rise above out of the mire of history. Doctor I'm not sure we can do that. Why is there any way that we're going to realize our Shrub was more and more. I would like to conclude at this time by thanking again James comfort Smith Paul Shaffer Robert MacKenzie Arthur Thurman and George Goodman for taking their time out of their busy schedules to appear on this panel. Your moderator has been Douglas Beecher.