Beyond the Black metropolis

Mr. Horace Kaden was born in Seattle in 1903 and he tells me that his father was a Mississippi slave and his maternal grandfather Hiram Revels was the first Negro senator in Mississippi and took Jeff Davis's Senate seat. And during Reconstruction this Hiram Revels was given a college to administer by the state of Mississippi. Mr. Kagan went to school in Seattle graduated with honors from the University of Washington majoring in sociology and while he was in school I believe you said so you work your way through as a deputy sheriff right through Washington then you went to Chicago and you worked as a research assistant and a teaching fellow. Yes I worked Well first I worked for one of the greatest men in sociology Dr. Robert E. Parker and that we dedicated my colleague Dr. Sinclair Drake and I dedicated our book black metropolis to Dr. Park. He was a great man and I was privileged to know him and travel with with him throughout this. But more directly I worked with Dr. Louis Wirth who is never been co-write actually

evaluated for his fame in sociology his nose looks notable book was get told. But I was there for about five years doing research studying and as a teaching fellow in the graduate school as you say. And where did you go from there. Well let me see. Well I didn't go that go very far from there geographically. Thirty five I wrote a book called Black workers in new unions and worked as a special assistant to Secretary Ickes and then I went to Europe in 1935 and stayed for a while. You were an expatriate you told me and I'm going to lead you into this you told me before that you missed three things when you were an expatriate in France. What were those things. It's a peculiar thing. The little things are the things that irk a person. And one of the two of

my things were little and one was quite large. But it's a little things and I read I think who was it that wrote to the exiles return welcome Kamau come cowardly. And he points that out rather well. Well to answer your question the thing three things that I miss were Camel cigarettes. And this is not commercial because I think they're the most harmful seawards and ham and eggs for breakfast. And race prejudice. I think following your return from France where you presumably got after your return you presumably got reacquainted with those three things you worked with Sinclair Drake on editing black metropolis is that right. Well no no we did four years of research before we started writing with just right and the religious following your return from France. Oh no. Following my return friend from France I went to fist been tossed taught at Fisk University which was my first taste of the southpaw and knew

not a very pleasant tasty the rather bitter taste. And then I came back to the universe Chicago infalling with Dr. Lloyd Warren who now is a quite famous social anthropologist and he and I set up this research on Chicago's. Black Belt city within a city and later Great came from Virginia and we continue the research for about four years and took us another three or four years to write it up. Can you give our listeners an idea of black metropolis. What was in it. What kind of research went into it and what conclusions you came to. Well it's pretty hard you put you put eight years of your life in something it's pretty hard to sum it up. I can do it in technical terms by saying it was a study of the black belt. The city within the city which we call black metropolis in Chicago using social anthropological and

sociological technique it's the sociological aspect been the more steady aspect. I mean the been the more dynamic aspects of social change and the and topological being the more structural. But I I I have gotten away a bit though I keep up with the literature from sociological jargon and let me see if I can add employ some lying and tell you we dug the scene. What kind of what kind of approach to use to really dig it that you go down and talk to lots of people we have part of it was from your own experiences I'm sure all the guests we had. It is a very big project with barely a quarter of million dollars we had as high a one time as 100 interviewers. And I don't know I never counted we had 20 30000 interviews.

Life histories all kinds of statistical records we employed every conceivable manner of determining what Dick right calls a seeing how the bet at the black belt law kills. He aspires. And all the other facets of living you bring up Richard right. And I wanted to talk at some length with you about Richard Wright since he wrote the preface to your black metropolis and also for some time you knew him. How did you come to me to write. Well I am very touched about writing I tell you our answer your question in just a minute but I wanted to read you just a section if I can find it. I'm looking at a song one morning new writings by American Negroes 1940 in

1942 at did by Herbert Hill. And I think it's a very good book and I also like it because it has a piece by me. But I've come back to that when I can finally because for the moment. Oh here is what Jay Saunders Redding a contributor to MORNING had to say about the preface to our book this neglected essay the introduction to a book entitled black metropolis is of far greater importance than any other one side and he'd been indicated whether accident by or design the essay discloses the same crucial ring of Wright's entire development both as a man and his writer. It reveals a source of his thoughts and feelings. It takes us into the make reads of his

creative conception. I'm not being over modest when I tell my friends my book is a big thick two volume book. You won't wade through it but for God's sake read Dick's preface because it's great. Now you ask me how I met Dick. I first met him I didn't know him I didn't. Dick was on really his family was on relief and Dr Louis Wirth for whom I worked as a research assistant and Louie's wife was named Mary Worth and Mary Worth was a caseworker for Dick Wright's family. And Mary had arranged for Dave to come out and see Dr. Wortham. You knocked on the door and Dr. orthe wasn't in and so I just saw her little handsome chubby faced brown skinned fellow there. Old was he but ole dick

musta been twenty twenty one I mention. No I'm just guessing around about 20 21. Curiously they are very similar to the hero of native son. Bigger Thomas whose employer sent him to get a job very parallel but then we did was there are and I didn't know him from anyone and he hadn't even read and written Tom's children they'll And but he was an interesting guy and therefore affable pleasant so I said like come in look around and I showed him my massive files on Chicago and he said You have every element of human life pinned down like you would put a pin in a butterfly. And I was quite taken because I've just been gathering facts. But here is

suddenly a poetic expression. They come out to give me a little interest in my work other than I was interested sociologist but I knew there was something more. And I didn't see Dick again. But do you remember that incident. And later when he after he had written. A native son he wired me. And I didn't know he even remembered being a but my picture had been in the paper and he'd somehow remembered it and asked me to meet his plane as he was doing a picture story for Life magazine. Well of course I was thrilled to meet the famous author because I've always been envious of a creative person and I'm a frustrated creative writer and put sociology much in second place and a Dick came along and he walked up and

you said whoa located. Have you heard of any negro being fired from their job as a servant. Because the hero of my book Native Son killed his the white girl who was the door of the household and that was his first question after that of course. Dick and I were together in many enterprises and close personal friends to leave left for France. Well I think a forty seven forty eight I'm not quite sure when you were putting together black metropolis in the course of your observations and experiences. And then in your later conversations with Wright did you notice any parallels between Wright's early years in Chicago as described seeing black boy and I'm I'm just sorry that I didn't bring a copy of my own book because one of the things he says in this powerful essay and one of the reasons he wanted to write for nothing. As a matter of fact he tried to give it to

us. And Paul Reynolds who was agent insisted on hundred dollars which which was just peanuts but he just wouldn't let the given thing away like every good agent and I hope my agent never lets me giving thing away and I don't think you will please like most agents you can be sure if well he doesn't give up much as Nick will say he puts out lights and eyes and that's about all. But. Didn't say it in this privacy said here in concrete abstract cold scientific terms is what I tried to say and made him sign. What I tried to say in black boy this confirms what I have tried to say artistically is really I'm not doing it justice because I'm paraphrasing and it was always a great poet. Of course one thing that comes clearly through as it should in Wright's work is this sense of isolation of the Negro community from the rest of the community. How about the isolation

of Negro group from other negro groups or from negro to to other negro in Chicago then. There there there are. So when the levels of isolation that I can speak about it psychologically I can speak about it sociologically you can speak of it spiritually because as Dick often said we are a AFTER mind society as someone blew the individual person's out in just tiny bubbles they can't call unless they cause a lonely guy. And he was a lonely guy for many levels. First place to see if I can roll it down. First place he was an artist and an artist says he is cursed with isolation that's why he says artists and maybe that's why he's isolated I don't know.

The artist just dumbfounds me but Dick was a genius and he always somehow was able to pull himself out of his environment and looking at it. I don't know why I've ceased to care for that. I just take that as a fact now so Dick was isolators artist second placed there. Was poorly in Chicago Dec so they were on leave. They were a poor family lived in miserable conditions. This was during the Depression years during the Depression years and what you read in about Bigger Thomas which really is Dick's live in malicious way of saying nigger Thomas. What you read of bigger because Dick said look I will say monies that that he says look I am a nigger than what you made me

and just take a damn good look let me down. Well anyway he was at the lower level of the main growth community. Now lots of people and I can't account for the stupidity of white people though I marvel at it. I think that all Negroes live on the same level. Well the class stratification. Date said artistically and certainly Drake and I document with scientific tools in black metropolis has even include more close ratification more rigid class lines and their more rigid because there's so little to stratify so that you climb a little up on the ladder you became very conscious and I was probably am.

But she used to think that I've gotten over it. I was moved in the Negro upper class so all the the relationship between big and myself. After he came to Louis weres office we lived in separate worlds. We lived in the same ghetto but we we were in completely separate work. You know father's got oh there are many mansions one might say. Only they were hopefuls. There were many hopefuls in harmony and the communications problem was not made easier by a long shot. Simply because you were all living in this one subculture of the greater culture of the city of Chicago all of you know all these. There has been and this is digressing from date. But they predicted it more than any social scientist there. There's just one thing that holds the Negro community together and that is the hatred of the whites. There is to carry it through

to modern times. Just one thing that holds Africa the emergent African nations from flying at each other's throat. And that is there are mutilated of can only live and when colonialism is solved that Africa will fly into a million parts. Unless there are very wise leaders and I shouldn't think that the African leaders are superior to European leaders. It would be a comfort to think so but I really have never been able to convince myself that black people were superior to white people. They act a little more decent in Birmingham. But in this community in Chicago when Dick and I are a growing apart we were far apart and we live there and I don't know all this Frenchman whose name you God has written me letters asking me questions about Dick's

experiences on there on the WPA. This is the gentleman who is doing a thesis on Wright once again as you know more or less this. This is my call for AB and he's now at Wesley and he is here doing his state a doctoral dissertation in American literature. That's from sore bomb just and I'm skipping a bit. But it is curious to note that you couldn't get an M.E. thesis out of a first class university on Dick Wright he's been so forgotten. But good to finish up the first part of question that you asked me. I guess Dick and I were miles apart and it wasn't till he burst in to find fame and I almost made a fraud and slip and said Flame. But it wasn't really burst into Of Fame and flame and wired me that high. I got to know him and then of course the cases were

reversed because I worship the artists and. Really took a subordinate position to him and I lived in Dick shadow for many years. How about the political isolation that was going on too. Oh well of course they could join the Communist Party. It was a natural. These committees that went around investigating somebody that belonged to the Communist Party and 40s and 30s are so utterly stupid and it's such a frightful witch hunt that that I find it hard to even express myself about it. I didn't join the Grahams party I didn't join it because I don't like party discipline. But I did found a warm. He found for the first time people were that good except

you described as beautifully and got that failed in the garden of gas. And there was an article before that and I don't remember what it is it's in this essay by readin in this book. Soon one morning and he describes dates. I should've had these things written down but I I. Didn't bother to but he declared his freedom and try and explain in furry personal terms. One of course that her day and no communist gets out of the party clean because he's invested too much and get wasted much of his life fighting the communists when he should have been doing constructive work. Now I'm not saying you didn't do constructive work but much of his his

emotion his AFAIK was to that futile battle of the commies were dead deader than they are now and they're of their philosophy was impotent senseless and always was. But it was the natural thing for a negro isolated poor without recognition join the Communist Party. But to Dick's great credit and for his amazing strength though he found warmth and that warm a warmth that he had never known before as a black boy in Mississippi. As nigger Thomas not bigger is nigger Adonis in Chicago. And suddenly a group embraced it but deep that they wanted to control his mind that they wanted to tell him how to

behave. That he didn't want to give him the freedom grew right and with a tremendous Drago he broke out. Now he did it at a cost because you struggle so hard to break out you never stop fighting. You could never just quit and relax. Well if I had been the communists in Chicago in those days I would have known it because you know they didn't have many intellectuals in Chicago not affected. They never had many negroes anyway. Wright says I believe in the God that Failed that when they did get a Negro into their ranks they paid very particular attention to him and were quite quite pleased with the prospect. Of course it did. And it's no different from any of these institutions I belong to the Unitarian Church in Monterey and they're so damn happy to have a Negro

they are not my God unless we govern negro. The mechanism is the same. The communists were a little more devious and and they were more hard politically than the flabby white middle class intellectuals and so they exploited them calculate and would go to know no limits at the gold ornaments. Soon they would never do it. I had I can't remember how much dick revealed about this latter knocker. I hadn't thought of Dick in this subject in this context for a minute but I have letters from him and I look at his writing and I see. But he broke he broke he broke he must have broken about nine hundred thirty nine when he moved to New York.

And sometime following that you did have closer associations with him at this Good Shepherd community center right played a certain role I understand and of course the preface of black metropolis and then lecture tours at Fisk I wonder if you can fill us in on those days when you didn't know right. Much more. Yeah that's that's that's a long story. Interesting way. Well go read. Well Dick when he came in for a weekend and he told me he said I've met you before. And of course I pretended to have but I really didn't I didn't remember a thing and I was very shame not to know this famous man who far exceeded me in most everything I thought. But he came home with me and stayed at a community center that I was running. At 50 persons are partway and we had a guest room and he stayed there during the time that he was filming

the picture story for life. We would go out in the car every day and show me the place I think is forty third and Gretel where this rich white family live. And funny enough now it's a Negro community. Son do move it's Negro. And it was always the apt expression. Well I had a neighbor was a very clever language you'd never ever note and this is not it's no no great damage on mine I just get it from the people seems to pinpoint exactly what you want to say I think it's not what you get beyond the whole subject but there's nothing like the the the negro expressions especially the negro jazz musicians expression. For economy speech and for pinpointing and for controlling emotion as a matter of fact

on Doctor uses presidential address. I'm going to write a piece in signing slang negro idiom. The growing language because it's the language of the teenagers now and I'm going to call it diggin the scene that L.A. a president was inaugurated. This is this is all great. I think bear full responsibility for digressing you know like I love the original question right. We want to go into the five days that you and write spend in each other's company you know. Well now he stayed with me at the center and we worked that story together on for life. And we visited the places where we born so forth and we got to know each other. And he had remembered yet the files that I had had a doctor werse office and he said you got material about the Negro community when I was starting to gather material for

black Acropolis. And I should sure I got files. And I guess is was about 41. He said I'm going to do a picture book with them I forgot Rostand it Ruston was a photographer and David was a writer and the book was called Twelve men in black voices one of the most poetic and beautiful being and well integrated picture books with Texan pictures. Well he used my files and I gave him no make no mistake I did none of Dick's writing. Dick wouldn't allow anyone to do his writing if anything I was told did phrases from him but he does give me credit and I give him the concepts of urban versus rural or a sacred the versus secular society and under subordination.

And on that he based the his book and he called the one the rule. He called the lords of the land and the urban he called bosses of the building. So we were closely associated there and then from then on all four five half a dozen times a year we would visit each other. I always went to New York for Christmas and we moved in the same. Artistic intellectual circles in New York and then he would come to visit me on many speaking tours and so forth and then we did go to Fist together one time to lecture for Dr. Charles as Johnson a very noted negro sociologist who is dead and they're forgotten even quicker than the

creative artists and dictators being forgotten very rampant. You remember what you were speaking on. I can't I know did gave this this for a. Frenchwoman Mr. Freiberg has traced things up that I've forgotten. We spent a week there I know they gave us a schedule that was just filled up and I revolved in the last day here and and it stayed in bad big dress the assembly and for the South. This must have been like here for 243 someplace lonely. It was it was just a wonderful speech. And people of the other kids were just startled and did their really predicted as did NOT the sociologists or the scientists. The current revolt that was going to come in the

south. As for me I spoke to a race relations seminar and I was on a cycle and a lady keep band and give some sort of psychoanalytic interpretation of the legal problem which I just. I still liking the rewrite. But I tell you funny thing coming back to see the Ranger Jim Crow band and so face was very careful through his influence to get us a compartment and so we went down and then Dick and I looked each other back this time said it was a wordless debate. Shall we go without breakfast. Shall we have breakfast brought in or should we go to the dining car and we pulled the scream I just screamed You're all insane Donek are just screenshot. It's just so utterly stupid that it's unbelievable.

And finally Dick none has ever said a word. And finally Dick said. I think I want the experience of being screened and so we went through that and it was quite an experience. But on the way back somehow our reservations got mixed up and we got on the train and a guy that was added to her Marshall Field's son was there I knew the guy and I guess he had thrown his weight and gotten in our compartment because the reservation there but a $10 bill can do a lot of talking no matter where you are anytime anyplace. Yeah yeah yeah even leave it on the dresser of a countess. But. Yeah yeah he is there came the choice we could have a section lower and upper. The conductor had to make that concession. And so we flipped and I've got the upper. Well I had to get up in the middle of the

night and Locrian its curtain he was lying on the bed with all his clothes on. I said Ma'am I think I want you couldn't just go to bed. He said When I'm down south I want and spiel between me and these white poles damn green curtain. Right left the United States in the late 40s and I was looking for a black boy again last night. I remember his last paragraph and then I brought it along says with ever watchful eyes and bearing scars visible and invisible I headed north full of a hazy notion that life could be lived with dignity. But the personalities of others should not be violated that men should be able to confront other men without fear or shame. And that if men were lucky in their living on earth they might win some redeeming meaning for their having struggled and suffered here beneath the stars. When Wright left the left the country. You know what what became of him what might have been in his mind can you make any guesses on the odd look at me.

Let me paraphrase because I I can't remember and I should have brought more notes. But he wrote it was published in a book. You know I've got I've got a name in the book. But it was. Excerpts of people's writing. I've got it. But Wright's piece was called early Chicago day. And this is a paraphrase. He said I in my earnest endeavor to strive for dignity on this earth. I raised my head and embraced internal and eternal tension fear of violence and disquiet. Nice paraphrasing because Dick is much more put down to declare a phrase I think Dick never lost it. And as you said I think in black boy or maybe it was in the essay I said

I was in constant fear of white people though no white person had done me a physical wrong. I had no one had dealt him a physical blow but he walked as if he expected. Well Dick never lost it and he ran for refuge to friends for survival. Reading in his essay Jimmy Baldwin yes. Are critical of Derek so he pulled up his roots and did and he didn't write in Baldwin himself and pulled up his roots at one point of course. Yeah bald but above you can say that because Bowman Jimmy did come back. Yes and he came back on the scene Well all I can say is Jimmy could take it. Dick couldn't. Now when we talk about Jimmy I'll tell you the reasons why I think

he could take if he made other compromises. I look forward in a later program to talking about Baldwin at some length with you. Yes well I have but they couldn't take it and I think after he left America the only significant Hema wrote many books or wrote a book about Spain he wrote Black Power which is about Gandhi he wrote a book about Bang Donald conference. And I don't know I would guess he wrote the outcasts which was when he was under the influence of de Beauvoir and Sartre and thought he was an existentialist but that was a miserable failure. And the only thing of great importance that he wrote was not fiction but a little book with the challenging title. Listen white man.

And he has said what was going to happen what was happening. I haven't read that if that's still in print. What I do know I bought it is the remainder. I don't I don't know if it's a I just don't know. This was one of his last things one of his last things. It's a powerful statement and in that he I don't want to labor the point but he unlike we in the social sciences whose function is prediction said this is going to happen white man because the Earth is two thirds nonwhite. China has a quarter of a million population the world. If you want democracy you've got to do we've

got it. Well and he said it's so politically so forcefully. It's a brilliant thing. I'm wondering what something like that might have accomplished in the way of Wright's reputation today. I want to ask you how you think Wright is regarded today aside from the literary merits of his work how you think native son and black boy the two things I think for which he's best remembered how you think these shape up as a continuing valid expression of the negro experience. First let me tell you right has been forgotten. It's a cruel fate that all authors all creative people grid more than anything. Will I last. Now Dick did and I spoke down the center as a state college four year ago and I made reference to Richard Wright. Would you believe a college student. Of course I don't find these mass

production college students you have out here in California I mean eastern Europe though I live in Monterey and I wanted to be on none of those kids remembered Richard Wright. Well they aren't too bright according to my notion they aren't sharp like kids but even that to have been completely forgotten. Now that's one thing Dick you can write a respectable master's thesis as I say are you on any first rate college illiterate. However if you read a book like black boy like needed sun like 12 million black voices now I'm not talking about his polemics. These are his artistic productions. Outside of the hysteria of the 40s because the 40s were hysterical hysterical in a different way than the sixties.

I don't know which is worse I think the 60s but in a way we had another hysteria in the 40s. But if you read those. They stand up has made me a present works of arts and a legitimate. Candy expression of the pent up violence the that is expressing itself in the current revolt. Now the one thing Dick did not predict and who could predict Jesus Christ. He's the closest thing Jesus Christ is. Mark the thinking now that passive resistance and the incredible and understandable control of an Evil Dick didn't predict he predicted lately.

Now to answer your question on couple levels there first is pretty well forgotten but I think he will be rediscovered. Second read outside of the histories period. His work is Megna evident blasters artistically artistically black boy native son 12 million Black Voices and in a more polemic fashion. Listen like me. Now I think you've been alive today and saying what he did say. He's my female he would've. It's Jimmy Baldwin. You want to would in time this up. Do right now some kind of rough comparison or contrast between what Wright was saying and what Baldwin is saying and the difference in the generations to which each is addressing himself. There was a promise of the 40 years when

the way to head for the negro was communist revolt. Russia was the hope that they believed with the damn communism but anyway out Dick was of that period and now we're out of the period we're of the world has frog and colonialism is being fought being beaten and Jimmy Baldwin knows as well as I do although he suffers that the negro will win in the United States or the United States will go under. And so Jimmy is not working or writing out the desperation. And Jimmy is suffering relief for humanity but can you save yourself from the dead who deep was writing from rage dickhead. Control

rage. And I can't go at this time into some of the artistic merits and how it expressed itself both in content and artistic form such as for instance Jimmy Baldwin can write white characters better than Dick. It's been a pleasure for me. For one I'm sure for a listeners to hear you talk about your own life and die but the people you knew write and bald one look forward to future talks with you in tying this up completely now is there anything else you wanted to. You want to say anything you can think of it all. No I've gone blank maybe there was I've depended so much on you that I'm just sorry and as Dick write a Dick Gregory those my two heroes Dick Wright and Dick Gregory Dick Gregory was talking about the astronaut that went up in the air and said he said you got weightless and you said Hell I get that

week two and three times a week and it doesn't cost the government a million dollars. And so that's just about the state I mean now just wait.