Gubernatorial Debate - Parkside Backup - Whippany-Birchwood Manor - with [Chyron]

This is a New Jersey network's special report. Well first gubernatorial debate of campaign 85 between Governor Thomas Kane and Democratic challenger Peter Shapiro. Tonight's debate is sponsored by the New Jersey State Chamber of Commerce. Tonight's moderator chairman of the Chamber of Commerce and chairman of First Fidelity Bank Robert Ferguson. I want to welcome our television audience to this occasion the debate of the major party candidates for governor of New Jersey. The Republican is the incumbent governor Thomas H-K the Democrat is Peter Shapiro who holds the office as Essex County executive. And I'm Bob Ferguson the chairman of the New Jersey State Chamber of Commerce which is exceedingly proud that this event has grown to be an important tradition in our election campaigns for statewide office. This is the sixth consecutive New Jersey governor Tauriel campaign in which the two major party candidates have met before our state chamber to express their views and their differences. Gentlemen we have New Jersey's business community appreciate your willingness to follow the example

of your predecessors and to participate in this debate is always constructive and enlightening not only for our own members but for the public as well. The Chamber sponsored debate now commands wide attention and interest among the Jersey citizens. We are very happy to be able to present it. We thank you both in advance for your participation. The state chambers rules for this debate permit the use of personal notes by each candidate but preclude the display of visual aids props and the like. The rules of the debate also preclude the use by any person selected taped excerpts from the program for commercial purposes. As to our procedure each candidate's opening statement will be five minutes in length. Each candidate will have 90 seconds to respond to questions posed by the panel. The other candidate shall have 60 seconds for rebuttal closing statements shall be three minutes in length. There shall be one question posed directly by each candidate to the other candidate to whom the question is posed shall have

two minutes to respond. The candidate posing the question shall then have 60 seconds for rebuttal. Color coded cards shall be shown indicating when a candidate has 30 seconds left for his statement rebuttal or response. When a candidate has 15 seconds remaining and a red card when the time is up and we shall be strict about when the time is up tell him and the toss of a coin was held earlier this evening and has determined that debate position of the two candidates the Democratic challenger will lead off. He is here for his opening statement of no more than five minutes. The Democratic candidate for the governor of New Jersey Peter Shapiro. Thank you very much Mr. Chairman and thank you for it to the chamber for allowing me to be here today and for beginning this debate. It's overdue. I'm glad to have it. Let me start out by saying this 10 years ago I was like to the state assembly at the age of 23. In those past 10 years I've seen a growth in this state

of self-confidence a growth in a feeling of capability that we have a feeling that New Jersey has come out in a lot of ways from being in the shadow of New York or Philadelphia. A feeling that we're far more capable than we ever were before. We've seen the Meadowlands grow into the world's greatest sports complex. We've seen Atlantic City change from being a city in decay to being the foremost tourist destination in the entire country. We've seen an economy strengthen. We've seen us in our state but it was great leaders like Bill Bradley re-elected by an enormous margin last year in Northern US senator Frank Frank Lautenberg. We produced even a Bruce Springsteen who is a spokesman on behalf of our young people all across this state. And it's something which has made New Jerseyans feel better and better about themselves and about their state. Now those reasons would tell you it's a great time to run for governor as an incumbent. I'm here tonight running as a challenger and I'll tell you why those are good reasons to run as a challenger. Those are good reasons. Because New Jersey is now more capable than ever before of being

able to meet the challenges which it is which it has had in the past and been vexed by in which it now faces as it moves into the future. Let me mention a few of those challenges. We've got the highest property tax rates of any state in the country a property tax which is not only onerous it's also inequitable. It's also something which creates all sorts of bad incentives across the line for the way in which our state is growing. I propose that we change that that we take a big lump out of this enormous surplus which has been generated over the past few years by higher taxes and return that the taxpayers of this state in the form of a 15 percent tax cut. No ifs ands or buts no gimmicks no rebates a simple 15 percent across the board cut back in property taxes for every homeowner and every tenant. I think that's something we could do as soon as I was sworn into office. I proposed also and I believe that one of the other challenges we need to take on is the challenge of our high auto insurance rates. You know there is no reason why the safest state in the nation

should have the highest auto insurance rates in the nation. I believe we can take that system and shake it up top to bottom reduce those auto insurance rates by as much as 25 percent by making it so that everyone who has taken from that system whether they're the insurance companies or the lawyers or the doctors or the auto body shops instead gives a little bit to make that system work out a little bit better than it is. But most of all most important I think we need to be far more aggressive about taking on the challenge of our environment and the specific the challenge of toxic waste. Despite the rhetoric of these past few years our toxic waste cleanup program in this state is one which is shameful and one which is one which is appalling. Let me describe it to you if I may. The situation as it exists right now right now as we sit here there are 97 of the worst toxic waste sites in the country. Here in New Jersey not one has been cleaned up. Not a single one. The first step of a toxic waste cleanup is a feasibility study. You have to do that before you go to engineering or

design before you get into the actual construction work of cleaning up a site. Well they haven't completed the feasibility studies on 90 percent of those worst toxic waste sites. Our state ranks fourth in cancer one out of every six of our water systems is contaminated by some form of pollutant or other. I have a plan to deal with that. It's to set up a special agency what I call a NASA style agency a crash program with a single purpose where responsibility is clear instead of the kind of diffusion of responsibility that you have right now with six different agencies with DP and one within the division of the treasury department of the Treasury one within the attorney general's office that are responsible for this. It would have emergency powers it would build active public participation and I'd back it with my own personal guarantee. And that's this. If I can't clean up half of those worst toxic waste sites in this state by the end of my first term in office I won't run for reelection. If my opponent had made the same pledge he wouldn't be running right now. Now have you seen the ads on television.

If you've seen those ads you realize how they're trying to hide that record. They say we lead the nation in cleaning up toxic waste. In fact we lead it only in identifying sites. They say they've cleaned up two hundred ninety two sites. In fact they've twisted the definition of the word clean up. They've confused the trivial with the significant. And I'm calling upon Governor Kaine right at the outset of this debate to withdraw those fraudulent deceptive ads which I feel are part of an effort to manipulate public public opinion. Thank you hero. And now for his opening statement of no more than five minutes after that. The Republican incumbent and the candidate for the governor of New Jersey Thomas state's Governor thank you and a chamber very very much for this opportunity and for sponsoring tonight's debate does remind me of a few things to know. Four years ago I stood at the same podium and perhaps it's not a bet I did or remember what it was like four years ago not 10 years ago but just four years

ago 300000 people in this state were out of work by the time I took office. New Jersey's unemployment rate stood at 9.2 percent and that was well above the national average. The state's budget as usual was in crisis. Fiscal irresponsibility it left us with a great big deficit. Our approach to education has become stale. There was trouble in the education department itself. You remember Fred book there was trouble in the test scores of students continued sliding down wood and as they'd been doing for the previous 10 years and the crime rate was up we had a budget crisis a transportation crisis a prison crisis you name it. We were in trouble. It wasn't the right time for New Jersey. People were leaving the state jobs leaving the state. And of course confidence was leaving the state. But we set about as soon as I was elected to change all that around to make a difference. And I decided we needed some new approaches and some different ways of doing things.

Well we tried new ways and we got results. And tonight as I returned to this podium four years from that time New Jersey is a different place. This state once turned its back on new jobs. In the past four years we've welcomed them. We've eliminated some taxes which were killing small business. We've paid back an unemployment insurance debt to Uncle Sam of over six hundred million dollars. And doing so by the way we got rid of another tax band repairing roads and bridges which have been neglected in the past so that businesses could move their products. And so that people so that families could get around this state a little easier. And we offered assistance to companies who were looking for sites to bring jobs to New Jersey and we gave also assistance to small companies minority people who were trying to start businesses. The results of that new attitude and now clear up New Jersey has created 350000 new jobs

in that particular period. And that's just in the last four years our employment today is at 4.4 percent less than half of what it was and now we're not above the national average we're far below the national average and we're attracting jobs twice as fast as the rest of the country. Instead of leaving people who are now coming to New Jersey we've become a leader a leader in the northeast and a leader also in the country and that leadership extends to more than the economy. We changed our educational system. We tried to attract new teachers to get rid of the unnecessary bureaucracy we upgraded standards for teachers and for students and reading writing and arithmetic and now being stressed in our schools. And as a result those test scores are going up instead of down. This year they jumped almost 13 points and we changed our approach to the environment and launched the most aggressive environmental cleanup program in this entire nation. We've taken action at 292 toxic waste sites. We signed a law which forces companies to clean up sites before they ever leave

them. We signed a right to know law to protect workers like firemen and protect families. We've created an environmental trust fund to help us keep our water clean and to stop ocean pollution and other states and now changing their opinion about New Jersey. They're looking to New Jersey as a model and looking to us for advice. They call me to find out how to handle their environmental problems crime which had gone up for a decade is down now for three years in a row. Our budget is in surplus but able to assign tax cuts and inheritance tax and the income tax and in other areas as well and isn't it wonderful to hear that the Democratic legislature in Trenton even they now are talking about reducing taxes instead of raising them. New Jersey in 1985 was a changed place a growing state a healthier state a proud state. Now I'm not suggesting. No what I suggest that we finish this job I won't be satisfied until we are even a better state. Every person that wants a job

can find one to lower test scores even end up climbing is still too low for my blood. We got to get him even higher. We've still got obviously a massive task ahead of us in cleaning up toxic waste. It will take years of commitment. And we can still make government more efficient and more responsive. We can make New Jersey stronger and prouder. But New Jersey is on the move. The question is should we turn back. I don't think so. Thank you Governor. Now we come to the questions from our panel of news people where we remind the candidates that they have a 90 second limit for each response. The candidate not question has the option of a rebuttal with a time limit of 60 seconds in the first round the first question will be posed by Dick Forni business reporter in New Jersey. Network to Mr. Shapiro who has 90 seconds for his response. Mr. Shapiro. Business and professional people in our state to businesses and professional

people in our are finding it impossible to pay for the insurance necessary to do business here at the present time. If they can get that insurance at all. And the reason emergency declaration from our governor has prescribed some temporary relief. What do you propose as a long term solution which will allow businesses to get liability casualty product liability and other necessary insurance to keep them going here and allowing them to remain in the state of New Jersey. Let me answer that if I can. First of all by looking at the situation that we've got and the way the situation stands now the commercial liability situation in this state was already going on the wrong track for quite a while. It took until six weeks prior to this election for this governor to recognize it for this administration to do something about it. And then what they did about it was declare a moratorium. Now when you declare a moratorium what does it do. It puts a pressure cooker situation in place. It makes it so that instead of dealing with the problem it just postpones dealing with that problem.

I think we could look at this problem just in the same way that I propose we look at the automobile insurance problem and that is take it apart and look at the fact that when we look at an area like insurance it so often seems to be the case that everybody benefits but the consumer that all of the interests are able to get together in the legislature and have their voices heard other than the consumer. This is something which we see in auto insurance that has driven our rates up until they're the highest in this country. And so that citizens out there are paying two and three thousand dollars to to insure their family with automobile insurance. If we can pull that system apart the way that I'm talking about I think we could pull the commercial insurance system in the same way and make it so that businesses in this state can afford to operate 60 seconds Governor. Well I didn't hear the answer but I asked her what she would do. But I tell you we have to put the moratorium on and the strongest action has been taken by any governing this country because of what was happening here to small businesses in particular small restaurant owners the people who were simply being forced out of business not only because their insurance is being canceled

because of the size of the rate increases that were coming on. So what we have to do is attack the root causes some of those causes frankly because of actions taken by the insurance companies. We've got to get after others because of the high legal awards that we have given out by our legal system. And we have got simply to put a limitation. We are talking about a national problem not just something in the state of New Jersey. And I've asked the National Governors Association at the last conference whether we can get a national approach to this because what you just mentioned is happening in every single state in this country. And we've got to have I think a national approach to it as well as the kind of approaches we have in New Jersey. Otherwise we're going to be whipsawed one state against another. Now a question from Linda Laghman the State House correspondent the Star-Ledger Newark to Governor Kaine who has 90 seconds to respond. I have and that you have repeatedly said that New Jersey has the best toxic site in the country. You've been tossing around a lot of numbers to back that claim but is it true as your opponents claim that the state

has yet to complete one clean up any of the 97 sites generally considered to be the worst in state. And if that is true why hasn't the clean up. Well first of all it depends what you define clean up as he declined clean to clean up as a maintenance program over a number of years. No. You know by cleanup of containing the public health hazard. Yes we've done a number of them. We're not talking just about these particular toxic waste sites so-called Superfund sites. We're talking about a lot more sites and that Peters talked about cleaning up some 45 sites by the time he finishes four years as governor had a done well clean up a lot more than that. We've got over 200 sites that we've totally cleaned up since I've been governor in this term. We've also seen these particulate toxic waste sites taken a number of cleanup actions. We've got well over half of them under way now with clean up with maintenance with actual shovel in the ground work being done in about half the sites. Now

others we've got the so-called feasibility studies going on. It's a you know to say that. To say that you haven't cleaned up one toxic waste site you know to use that as an expression I pardon the expression that's bull. Because that's. That's not telling the people the truth the truth is that we're gone further and more toxic waste sites. We've been stopped on more toxic waste cleanup than any other state to start it. That's where we are right now and that's what we talk about the serious problems. Talk about how to get people insurance who are trying to clean up toxic waste and those kind of questions. Peris 65 is that toxic waste clean up program you keep talking about. Let me try to see if I can detail this to you because it almost has to infuriate you when you look at it. Let me give you some illustrations OK. First of all they've tried to redefine the word clean up in their own in their own document. Here it says cleanup includes initial remedial measures as well as final remedial actions. I looked it up in Webster's dictionary and it

said to make clean fresh or wholesome that's not what they've done on one single site. And even with their own definition even in their own documents they haven't cleaned up one single one of those toxic waste sites that are on that priority list the worst sites. Here's what they have cleaned up in Hillsdale in Bergen County. One drum of combustible liquids which was found in a food store parking lot in Harvey Cedars one 55 gallon drum with flammable liquid washed up on a beach in and Howell township on route 5:47 one drum of waste oil found along a Jersey Central Power and Light right of way. I don't consider that to be a toxic waste cleanup that's worth much for the health of the people of this state. Let's get going on those serious sites and do it. Next a question from Peter your state house bureau chief the record in Hackensack to Mr. Shapiro for a 90 second response. Mr. Shapiro you have pledged to cut property taxes on taking office if the legislature is unlikely to act into a special tax study commission completes its work next year

and a number of economists are cautioning In the meantime that there may be an economic downturn that would leave your administration hundreds of millions of dollars short of what you'd need to pay for the tax cut. Can you tell us what other taxes you would raise. We're programs he would cut to pay for your property tax reduction. If that happens this let me let me answer if I can you asked several parts that question. First of all I proposed this property tax cut take effect immediately with the beginning of the next fiscal year. It's based upon sound estimates conservative estimates of the available money. If you take a look at the budget and the huge surplus that's been generated by the increase in the sales tax which he promised not to do the increase in the income tax which he pledged he wouldn't do the increase in the increases which have taken place and nuisance taxes. You've got a big budget surplus that's there that they've been trying to hide. In fact over the last two years alone you'll find that the discrepancy between the audited figures and the figures that they put out was $400 billion. Each of those years so the money clearly is there now. And you ask a legitimate question what if horrendous calamity should occur and

the economy should turn downward. Ours is based upon a basically steady state economy not enormous growth. What if it should turn downward though. Then what do we do. The last thing we should do is cancel property tax relief because when you can't sell property tax relief what you do is you increase the most inequitable tax the one tax when you're out of work. You're still going to pay. That's what we shouldn't do. If we have to increase taxes we should look at those taxes based upon ability to pay. Not at the property tax. Under this administration they have cut back the amount of property tax relief in the budget relative to the entire budget every year. It's dropped from 58 percent in 1982 to 51 percent today. Governor Kaine 65. Well that's just not true. We've got about $2 billion of new programs and property tax relief that are coming in so I'm governor you've got $15 billion of it in Essex County for human services that's new money that you've got since this administration. Let me tell you something else. You talk about reducing property taxes. We've had two billion dollars going to take over school

services police services things that otherwise would have been taken over by the property tax. But you talk about cutting property taxes. I put that money in my budget. You've been county executive since a long time. I'm a resident of that county. I've had my taxes raised almost every single year since you've been county executive. Now I've. Lower some taxes myself. You have not lowered one yet and you didn't propose lowering any when you were in the legislature. Well right now you became a candidate all of a sudden your tax cut is. Now back to for any for a question of Governor governor. A lot of excitement has been generated in a lot of attention paid to attracting high technology industries to our state. It each time unemployment figures are released we learn that more jobs are lost in the manufacturing sector of our state's economy leaving us with many skilled but unemployed workers. Something that economists sometime call this structurally unemployed. Are we intentionally letting manufacturing jobs slip away.

Is a sort of industrial policy by default and what if anything can and should be done to reverse this trend of loss of manufacturing jobs. No in fact we're doing everything we can to keep manufacturing jobs. This problem that only for New Jersey but for the country because a lot of the manufacturing jobs that are leaving are not going to other states are going to Taiwan. Are they going to Japan. We're going to lose our manufacturing base in this country if that continues. We by the way in New Jersey for the first time in this last year have now reverse that trend. We've got more manufacturing jobs coming in for the first time than than leaving. But a lot of those manufacturing jobs are foreign jobs frankly that foreign companies like one not far from here in Korea came in and has given us a lot of manufacturing jobs in our state. But I'm deeply concerned nationally about losing our manufacturing base and I think it's going on right now. We have got a whole series of programs I think you know to retrain people who might lose those jobs so they could get new ones just to say we have problems for the so-called under-trained training them so they can get the new technology jobs that come into

come into being. We've got those off at a number of US state colleges and and through state government. I simply think that we you know we won we cannot lose our manufacturing base in this country too is New Jersey we're attracting a lot of sales of jobs a lot of high tech jobs and we should continue to do that. But in addition we've got to do everything we can to keep on going effect from jobs and particularly in our cities and that's one of the reason for that enterprise zones and some other things. That's fair. Yes. You know you've just heard two consecutive falsehoods. The last one was that we've increased manufacturing jobs when the fact is since January 1 of this year alone we've lost 13000 manufacturing jobs. The prior one was that I hadn't cut taxes in Essex County. Something has been reported in every newspaper in this state is that we produce the property tax rate in that county by historic terms by 25 percent. It was it's been a terrific tax cut. But let me if I can touch on this manufacturing job and the whole question of our economy which I think is most important. You may remember four years ago when Tom Kean stood before you as a candidate for governor and he had a plan to revive our economy.

That plan was to cut the sales tax from 5 4 cents to half the corporate business tax and to never ever ever ever raise the income tax. Well he broke every single part of that plan and now he says look what happened to the economy. It improved because we didn't follow my plan. In fact what's built our economy. Things like Atlantic City which he voted against as a member of the legislature. Things like the Meadowlands which he voted against on the critical bill for the Sports Complex when he was a member of the assembly. I'm sorry I've got to stop you. Let me $11 with a question for Peter Shapiro. Mr. Shapiro What is your reaction to the fact that this state a senior snubbed you and instead endorsed Gavin it came to reelection the first Republican governor to be endorsed by the State Federation. My reaction of course Linda is somewhat of disappointment I have to tell you that I was particularly impressed and perturbed that they chose to do it in a kind of unseemly way that is they set up their convention during rush. When I knew I couldn't be there. Now the last time the AFL-CIO leaders tried to do

that was they tried to pull off an endorsement for Ray Bateman back in 1977. But they weren't able to do that. As you probably know because Brendan Byrne went there and appealed to the rank and file. What I what I think though you have to remember in this kind of case is that the endorsement of leaders of labor leaders of leaders of any kind of group doesn't matter nearly as much as it used to matter. Walter Mondale proved that very well last year. It's not something which has ever been part of our political strategy that's part of the old politics. Part of the politics that sad the way you get votes is you go to people through brokers. The way we're trying to get votes is by going directly to the people of this state and by trying to appeal to them on the issues of these toxic waste cleanup program which has been so part of the auto insurance rates of the property taxes of handling growth in this state in a decent way of making it so that we have a political leader who keeps his promises and doesn't distort his record. Governor. Well I was AFLCIO goes I'm proud to have their endorsement to be the first Republican to have won.

I got it not because I agree with them on every issue because I disagree with them on some issues that you agree with them on like the planned hostage bill. But I'll tell you what makes it makes it particularly pleasing to me is that we agree on the most important thing and that's the creation of jobs. And they recognize this administration has made that a priority. And therefore they have gone along with that and they endorsed me and I'm proud of that and saying I'm proud of my other endorsements based on the record based on the record of this administration. Now as long as we're going back to some things though let's get the record straight on that. I've reduced more taxes in this state than any other governor in the state's history. I've also signed the largest tax cut in the state's history. We had some problems after Brendan Boone got through making up that particular deficit and the legislature didn't get me what I asked for. But we preserve what we could and then we went back to the business of cutting taxes and stimulating growth. And we've cut it five six six taxes now in the state. And each time we cut one we think we've helped growth a little more. Peter darkeys with a question for Tom Cain.

Governor Kaine after Pricewaterhouse was given a 6.5 million dollar Division of Motor Vehicles contract without competitive bidding they were asked to contribute to the state Republican Party and came up with fifteen thousand dollars. Doesn't that at the very least create the appearance that state get state contracts and political contributions go hand in hand. Well let me say first of all clear up the price Waterhouse situation. They were on board already as a consultant to the pope. They already were into this particular business of trying to straighten out the motor vehicle to Bob. And now we know motor vehicle but historically in this day it has been poorly run. It's doesn't give the service to the people it was made to straighten it out to computerize to bring it into the 20th century. The son was hired that had been doing the work. And the idea that they could do it faster and they could do it better. Frankly Pricewaterhouse screwed up. They didn't do it well. They used the wrong computer language. And as a result they now have to redo it all. But they're doing it thanks to the help of the attorney general are doing it at no cost whatever to the taxpayer.

Now they made a contribution also. They went to them not to me personally but they made a put it back and made a contribution to the Republican Party. That's not unusual. A tremendous number of accounting firms in this state to make that kind of a contribution. I know. Well I found some people in Essex County who who gave money to either Peter or the Democratic Party in Essex County and then tap that contracts with that county. I don't think there's any question that that was done because of the contribution we keep that separate. It has to be kept separate. There is no time in this administration or any other administration that cabinet has been told this what political contributions and government policy mix. They don't and they will not be either. You know this is one of those areas where you know if you find one incident you can say as the governor put it Everybody screws up a little. But the truth is it's part of a pattern. And that's such a disturbing thing when you stop to take a look at it whether it's been the price Waterhouse contract which just

cost every citizen of this state money and time and inconvenience or whether it's been the contributions that they've solicited from polluters or whether it was the whole Taggard contribution scenario or whether it was one of the big bond houses giving $40000 to the Governor's Ball and getting so much new business they had to open up a Trenton office. It's part of a pattern that's really pretty disgraceful. You know it's something when you have a Republican businessman contributes to a Republican Party that's understandable when a member of that administration solicits contributions in the course of negotiations over a contract I think that's pretty darn scandalous. I think there are some things we could do about it. We could require disclosure that could be done at the time of contracts or contributions to any candidates in the state of New Jersey. We could make it so that we limited contributions to political parties something which ought to happen. Take Thorning to Peter Shapiro for a 90 minute response I'm sorry 90 second sorry I'll take 90 minutes before I

go I don't know what I'm responding to but I'll take that to mean that. Mr. Shapiro is part of your environmental plan you have outlined some increases in costs to businesses doing business in the state of New Jersey. How can we increase take care of the environmental cleanup situations still have New Jersey maintain its competitive edge as the state in competition with others to attract businesses here. I don't think anybody would except the principle that having a dirty environment is necessary for having a good economy. I think the two go together. But I think that's an important principle first of all to put out this administration has put together no long term funding plan for clean up toxic waste you know they talked about something called an environmental trust. It didn't have a penny in it for cleaning up toxic waste. As you're probably aware I've outlined a $2 billion program over the next 10 years for cleaning up toxic waste. It relies upon a number of sources including the federal Superfund but it basically is based on two principles which

I think are fundamental. Number one that we never ever ever wanted to lay an environmental cleanup because we don't have the cash on hand. And number two that as much as is humanly possible the polluters should pay for it in order to do that. I've outlined three initiatives. Number one increased enforcement we've got the toughest laws in the country for environmental enforcement that allow us to collect up to treble damages they haven't been used. There's been not one single significant enforcement action under this administration. Secondly to expand the spill front from the current level of 15 million to about 50 million a year. In other words from one penny on the barrel to about two and a half cents on a barrel and a third through setting up an innovative line of credit that would make it so that we could have a cash flow tool that would allow us to be able to do temporary short term borrowing to plug the gap in the cash flow flow that will undoubtedly be there while we're waiting for the enforcement actions to succeed. And as we're collecting the money from the spill fund. GOVERNOR Well first of all that program would

work for the reasons which Bob here we pointed out. It's based on a system which takes sometimes five years to collect. That is the idea of basing it on fines. It won't work economically. But secondly we do have to have a system defined over a number of years. We've got we're all right 287. But after that we're going to have to have a long term a long term system. And that's that's correct. But you can't have that until you know two things. First is the shape of the Superfund. I don't know if you noticed yesterday but we got preempted in another House committee another thing preempting the fund that you want to use. If that goes into the eventual bill your whole plan goes down the drain. We've got to we've got to look and see with that Superfund looks like we've got a court case pending now on our spill fund which is bought into my plan and your plan. We've got to make sure we get through the Supreme Court with that particular that particular plan in shape. And at that point we can put together. And you've had an interesting suggestion which doesn't work. Bill Gormley said an interesting suggestion I think is more to the point. But I think we can move in the long run to funding

solutions Glendalough and all that. Tom OK. Even you have admitted tonight that the Division of Motor Vehicles has been one giant mess. You actually also recall very very people who remember very vividly you know the vehicle director critics Snedeker who was removed after that so-called photo license. And now we have the new six million dollar computer designed to speed up the transactions. Developed a glitch. They have more than a million transactions backlogged. Yet you're a director your acting director who played a prominent role in training a computer system still remains in charge. Why haven't you leave your duty and his duties or at the least why haven't you appointed him your ambassador to Secaucus. Do you plan to make him permanent or are you thinking of turning over the division of Motor Vehicles to a private operation.

Well nobody is permanent and this administration has. If I'm successful past the past next first of next year but no commitments made any. It will be a number of changes. But having said that the mistake he made was of this mistake he made was in listening to the consultant that consultant happened to be one of the Big Eight accounting firms that happened to be somebody who he had reason to suspect knew what they were talking about as far as computers. We did not have the kind of computer expertise onboard and state government at that point with us that we do now had we had that system in place perhaps that whole thing would have been questioned. But he made a mistake. He listened to it listened to the expert. But the motivation was correct. And that's to change the system fundamentally change the system until it is the best motor vehicle system in the entire country. That's what they were trying to do. That's what that's what they're trying to do with all this money spent for computerization. It's still what happen. It's late because of the mistakes that were made by Pricewaterhouse but it still is going to happen

and we're not going to rest until that's the case until we have a motor vehicle system in this state that we can be proud of and we're going to do it without you know without having excessive blame at any one individual because the mistake was made by one of the most reputable firms in the country who are now correcting it of no expense to the taxpayer. Mr.. If I can I first of all two things I want to apologize to the people of Secaucus if I can lend if I happen to be a delightful town and is really on the move if you want to know the truth. Secondly there's a mistake in what the governor just said and that is he didn't just listen to the consultant to Pricewaterhouse. They had a call to the Division of Motor Vehicles from the software consultants who said this system is not going to work and they told him that last year they sat on that information in part because this administration has allowed a cushy atmosphere to grow up. You may have heard it last night on New Jersey nightly news if you had a chance to watch it that the director of the Division of Motor Vehicles or the acting director as he's called was his seat to the Governor's Ball

was purchased by Price Waterhouse. Give me a look at the fact that this seems to be more than just a pattern of mistake. Remember the governor's right when he says they were hired into the Byrd administration competitively bid for an $88000 contract. They were then awarded a non-competitive bid waiver job for 6.5 million dollars and came up with what was it more than $15000. When the gentleman let's try to get two questions into five minutes Peter Gorky's to Peter Shapiro. Mr. Shapiro you proposed turning a number of social service programs including welfare probation child abuse many aspects of care for the owner any number of other programs over to community based groups. Could you tell us approximately how many jobs would be affected by the shift. And what evidence you have that there are enough community based groups to handle such a change. I think this is something which is very significant It needs to be done. It's difficult to explain in 90 seconds but we've centralized our social services so much in this state that we've made it so they're

out of touch with the people we've compartmentalize them and divided them up so we're not treating people well as human beings not getting a good value for our tax dollars and not making it so that work is rewarding. One of the ways in which I've reduced taxes in Essex County brought them down by 25 percent was to reduce the size of our workforce. While Governor Kaine was adding 3500 new employees to the state payroll we were able to reduce it by more than 20 percent from 80 300 employees down to about 60 400 employees today. A pretty remarkable reduction. One of the ways that we were able to do that was by bringing community organizations in and making them generalists making it so that they could deal with with the needs of a person in trouble which are never just one thing they're never just income they're never just social services they're never just child care they're usually a broad spectrum of needs to try to make it so that we could get people off of welfare and on work. There were still so many obstacles that are put in the way by the state democracy and frankly by the federal bureaucracy as well. But the federal bureaucracy lately has been willing to grant waivers. We got

one waiver like that to combine two jobs within our workforce. The federal government took six months to approve it. Then we applied for the waiver that we needed from the state government. It took them a year and a half governor well in the first place. We already do contract a number of those services to the. We have social service agencies at the county level which we started and we run programs through but we are going to stay responsible for the attendance because we've got to make sure the jobs are done and we're going to stay involved in things like child abuse. I want to be very active in that particular area. But again the rock was made about tax reductions. I've got my property tax bill that's going up 50 percent just about got your property tax bill is going up 30 percent in the last three or four years since you bought the house. I don't know of anybody who lives in Essex County who hasn't had paying more taxes today than they were the other day. You also you also mentioned reductions of employees. Wouldn't have had much of a direction and pointed employees of the secret program have left at the federal level.

Well I. Beg to differ. But the what this business about reducing taxes is just simply wrong. And if you live in Essex County you're watching television live in Essex County. Get out your tax bill that it get down to to go up. So what don't we going to have to stop this section. I think the panel members for their questions super And now it's time for our candidates to each pose a direct question to the other with an opportunity for rebuttal. First Mr. Shapiro will post his question to Governor Kaine. He has two minutes to respond. And Mr. Shapiro that has 60 seconds for rebuttal. Peter very good. I have one simple direct question won't take me a long time to ask it. And that is I'd like you to come with me tomorrow to visit one of the toxic waste sites that you claim that your administration has cleaned up. It's called the Sayreville carwash. It's located in the town of Sayville and according your own reports you've removed as your time as part of your toxic waste cleanup program. One barrel of what was called

toxic substances which turned out by the way to be old car batteries from that car wash. I'd like you to come with me and go nearby that site and go to sea. Go to the neighborhood around CPS Madison. One of the sites that's on the Superfund list. And look at the fact that 14 years after they found the problem and four years after the courts ordered the solution that your administration has stalled on that solution. I'd like you to stop by in the same neighborhood and look at the landfill and talk to neighbors there and find out how they feel about the fact that on that huge site which is so deadly to so many people have done so little or go by the center of a landfill which is right nearby there and look at the 500 Barry drums of chemical waste and the fact. That the drinking water of 65000 people is threatened by it. That's the kind of thing that I would like to see us do together to hear how people feel about all this propaganda that's been put out. I'd like you to withdraw those ads. Is this all a question. A question mark that is a wedding for that.

The fact is that as you know we have had major and minor cleanups in this state in the so-called Superfund sites take a little longer to get bigger sites that's where the Superfund sites before we came into office there was work on almost none of them. Now we've got everyone on a schedule. Everyone is going to be cleaned up in one way or another over half of them are on the way to being cleaned up today and will be cleaned up in the next few years with or without your election as long as we keep the system in place. We're not going to clean up toxic waste simply by changing the name of agency to clean up toxic waste by solving things like where do you put it. When you clean it up how do you ensure those who are going to clean it up. If you want to know what these sites of either way we've got more than two hundred ninety you really were up well above 300 now. But we got 33 major management sites of 50 or more barrels of toxic waste 58 of the results of its aggressive enforcement program which requires the companies themselves to clean up under penalty of triple damages. Ninety nine of the results of Akra

the first of its kind in the nation which requires companies to clean sites themselves before they sell it. 73 small dump sites and they get a drum drum side they can go from anywhere one to two hundred barrels. Twenty nine or other small sites but some of these small sites are serious like trying to clean PCBs out of somebody's pipe. Those are important. You can't just you can't just ignore those. So all these things we're doing as well as the Superfund sites what we're cleaning these things up. In addition to those 40 or so sites which you say you're going to clean up which will be cleaned up again anyway because there's a good head start on them. Three quarters of those Superfund sites are well under way. I'm sure the response is well under way has got to be one of the greatest exaggerations I've ever heard. Remember there's a first stage and a toxic waste cleanup and that first stage is the feasibility study. They haven't completed the feasibility study on 90 percent of the sites. Governor you should withdraw

those fraudulent ads from TV. They're deceptive they're misleading to the public. There's something that tries to make it make it look as though something's been done when it hasn't been done. My approach to this is not just to give an agency a new name. It's Tim combined together all those tools and make it so those special powers that need to be there in an agency which has to get a mission conducted. Are there powers that we gave for example the mental and sports complex to make it succeed so it's not subject to civil service. So it doesn't have to go through the Department of Treasury when it wants to buy anything from paper clips to engineering services. We should make it so that we provide the same unitary purpose that was given to NASA under President Kennedy when he said we're going to put a man on the moon by the end of the decade if we could if we could provide in this country that leadership in the space race. I'd like us to provide that kind of leadership here in New Jersey cleaning up toxic waste or reversing roles. Now Governor Kaine would pose a question here. Peter you've made management one of the hallmarks of your campaign and you said you wanted to bring management practices to state government.

And yet as a as a resident I'm somewhat concerned about the practices that now take place in Essex County. When you came into office the county had a surplus of 12 million dollars. Now that county has a deficit of almost 6 million dollars by the way the only county in the state which is now running deficits. Fact is that the Shia booty's bond rating agency downgraded the state. We're pretty proud of our triple-A rating at the state level. Essex County has been downgraded. I hear a member of the language moody used to basically said bad management was the reason. And the fact that the county was getting into debt which it was going to have difficulty difficulty paying off. It's that kind of management that concerns me together with fraudulent ads that talk about reducing taxes when every single year my tax bill and most tax bills in Essex County have gone up. That concerns me. So what I'd like to ask is this kind of management you can bring to state. Thank you for getting to the question. If I can answer that. Let me

answer that. Let me answer it very directly and that is first of all look at the Moody's report. They did drop us one quarter of a point something by the way they've been talking about US with us for a long time because I represented a county which is overwhelmingly urban and which doesn't have a very steady tax base. What they said in that report by the way was that in part because of that tax base and in part because we've we've made it so that our our county government is run so tightly that they were concerned and they expressed that concern a drop at one quarter of a point. You're correct about that. But you know we're not the only county that said cash problems under your administration. In fact we well we had a deficit. There were 10 other counties that ran either a deficit or had to have emergency appropriations during the course of the year not because their revenues were short not because their revenue estimates were off because their estimates of state aid were off because they were based upon the belief that they would have other revenues that have been cut back under this administration has been reduced. And if you look at the facts of the matter your budgets have gone from 58 percent state aid down to 51 percent state aid. Now let me get back to the

issue of Essex County Texas. OK. Everyone knows this and it's a demagogic thing to say that property taxes are based on rising assessments. We've cut back the tax rates just like President Reagan cut back the rates on income. That doesn't mean your income taxes lower. Governor you're probably making more money or maybe in this case you're not. I'm not sure because you took a public job like me but. But as your income rises as the average citizens income rises what happens is of course the amount they pay in income tax goes down. But we've cut the tax rate in historic ways. We've cut it back from 145 per hundred down to one to wait for a hundred. Those were the first tax reductions in Essex County in two generations. They went up on the Republicans as well as under Democrats for two generations back to the level today where they were in the 1960s. If you want to do that on the state level you'd have to reduce the sales tax back to 3 cents and the income tax back to zero. OK here let me give you an example we could do at a state level. You know we had the national unemployment rate where we've got in the States.

We wouldn't have a federal deficit anymore. And that's what we could do if you project six figures. But when you are talking about tax rates you're fooling people because people care whether their taxes go up with their taxes down. If we could if we could have some kind of tax rate figure on this state level for the state taxes after what we've done to promote this economic recovery you know we could give you all sorts of figures but they wouldn't make any difference because what people know is what's in their pockets. I know I know how much my property taxes are going up in the town of Livingston counties and you've been county administrator or county executive. So does anybody who lives in your town South Orange. So does anybody else. And so does any of it lives in Bellevale Nutley out west cool Well Milburn. I you know in that town Bloomfield everybody's taxes have gone up not down and you shouldn't say in ads or anyone else by sticking in the would rate that you reduce taxes when you've actually raised our schedule mandates.

Moving quickly to the summations. Each candidate will have three minutes for his summation presentation governor. OK. Tonight I hope you've seen the differences between the two candidates on one side. We've got a record of accomplishments of turning the state around and making a fundamental difference of new ideas applied to old problems whether it be transportation or education or jobs or what have you a record of creating those jobs a record of improving the schools a forward looking program that's been praised nationwide of cleaning up the environment of making both water and our air cleaner than it was before of fighting crime of getting that crime rate to go down instead of instead of up the way it was with the Office of putting 10000 new policemen on our streets. And the other side you've got I think I was trying to count whether we had some new ideas. But sometimes I think that you us Gary Hart for his new ideas and he sent you every one he had. But the difference is between a record

and promises. But I ask you to consider tonight is the difference between the record of the last four years and whatever promises you had. I ask you to consider the choice between moving ahead continuing to build pride in New Jersey and turning back. I ask you whether we've moved in the right direction in these last four years. I ask you whether you're better off today than you were four years ago. I think we've moved in the right direction. And I think this state is much better off. We build a foundation but it's only a foundation a foundation based on a strong economy a foundation based on a cleaner environment a foundation based on better schools and safer streets. The challenge now is to finish the job. I'd like that opportunity to continue to build that foundation so that New Jersey enters the 21st century stronger than ever before. And I know New Jersey can keep on climbing. I have no doubt about that. I think New Jersey can be a model for every other state and any other area of this country. You know Abraham Lincoln used to like to read the

Bible and he had a favorite section from Proverbs that was where there is no vision the people perish. And I think that was the problem in New Jersey for a long time. We didn't have the vision. We didn't see with where we were going what. Proud of our accomplishments and willing to build those accomplishments. And now we have a vision. We have a vision where we have to have a state where every able bodied man and woman can get a job at a decent salary a state where air and water and soil are the cleanest in the nation. What schools are America's finest where our youth is the hope of the world and where every street and neighborhood is safe. I don't think that's out of reach in New Jersey for four years. We've worked very hard to build a platform to stand on to extend our grasp. Tonight I ask the people of New Jersey to keep on reaching to join me in the challenges ahead. We've built pride in this state of New Jersey of ours and I would ask you tonight to allow me to continue. Thank you Governor. OK.

Now. For this very minute summation Mr. Shapiro. Yes. Thank you very much Bob and thank you members of the chamber for hosting us. We've had a chance tonight to discuss a lot of issues a lot of issues which are important for the future of the state of New Jersey. We've talked about taxes. Had some disputes about that. For the record as you probably know it taxes in the state of Georgia have not decreased. They've gone up by $2 billion in tax increases this governor has signed. He has reduced taxes by $200 billion. In other words a 10 to 1 ratio between tax increases and tax decreases spending over these past four years increased by $3.3 billion. That may not seem much after all that's the same amount of increased under Brendan Byrne except he had eight years to do it. We've talked a little bit about automobile insurance. We've talked a little bit about. The issue of property taxes something which I think is critically important. I've spent my career in Essex County fighting to reduce despite the distortions which you've heard from the governor and citizens of our county know that. Because if you look at the votes we got

in Republican municipalities as well as Democratic municipalities when I ran for re-election you would have seen that that was the case. And if you look back at your own words when you came to my second swearing in you'd see that that was the case and we've talked a little bit about toxic waste and that's perhaps the point which I think is most important. And Don because I think it perhaps more clearly than anything illustrates the real difference that exists between the two of us. You know I've said as part of my program for setting up this special super agency with emergency powers to launch a crash program to clean up toxic waste that I would keep on my wall a chart which showed all 97 of the toxic waste sites and showed how far along our progress was it would show today of course that 90 percent of those sites they hadn't even gotten to the first step which showed today that not one is cleaned up. Well I'd also like to take home a notebook which would have the status of those of those sites as well. You know. There is a newspaper article profiling Governor Kaine that says he takes home almost every night or read looseleaf notebook. Something is compiled as they said

by five full time employees with computer terminals. It contains speaking requests offers for appearances and aides offer him advice but he says he wants to make every decision himself. He said in the in the article I don't know anything more important than how I spend my time. Well I knew was something more important and that's giving you a clean environment. That's something that I want to do with your governor. I think we in New Jersey can aim higher can be bolder can really truly move ahead can be concerned with performance instead of being concerned with appearance. That's what I would like to do as governor thank you very much. Thank you. It seemed like a short hour but there you have it. I think the the candidates for their participation Obviously I thank the panelists. I think the time keeper kept it honest and do every one of you whether you're a Democrat Republican or independent we remember your obligation to vote on November

the 5th. Thank you for being here. Safehold