NJN Special Report; 1520: News 12 Primary Debate, Reel II

Welcome to the first Democratic gubernatorial debate on Tom Fitzgerald of News 12 New Jersey we are less than a month away from the primary in which democratic voters will decide who will run against Republican Christie Whitman. This debate is being sponsored by News 12 New Jersey and the Star-Ledger it is also being seen statewide on CNN. The cable television network of New Jersey in our studio along with the candidates is an audience. We will be hearing from the people in that audience. A little later on at the debate. But now here is the moderator of tonight's debate. Bob Cohen Washington correspondent for The Star-Ledger. Thank you Tom. And good evening. First I would like to introduce the candidates they are. Mayor James McGreevey of Woodbridge. Congressman Rob Andrews of Hadwin heights and former Morris County prosecutor Michael Murphy of Chatham. Let me explain the format of the debate in a moment. We will start off with opening statements from each of the candidates. Then I will ask the candidates a series of questions that the audience will get a chance to ask a few questions. And finally the candidates will ask their questions directly. Their opponents

will then give each candidate a chance to make an opening closing statement before the debate. We drew names out of a hat and Mr. Murphy will give the first opening statement. A reminder to each of our candidates you have one minute and 30 seconds for your opening statement. Mr. Murphy you may begin. Thank you. And thanks for inviting me tonight. I've been looking forward to this. This is really the beginning of the Democratic gubernatorial campaign. I have run a campaign based on the issues and the issues in this and this race are important and that's what we should decide on. I'm going to ask both my colleagues to stay on the issues and don't get personal no going after each other. The issues in this campaign as I see them are number one. Governor Whitman has been disinvesting in education. That's why I've I've taken the position that we have to add 25 cents tax to the price of every pack of cigarettes and then we're going to be able to roll back property taxes as well in automobile insurance. It's a disaster in New Jersey. What we have to do

is force down rates by 20 percent and cut out the waste and fraud that exists in our system as well in automobile insurance. We have to impound the cars of drivers that are driving without insurance. We shouldn't subsidize uninsured drivers. And lastly in the area of crime we must have speedy trials and speedy trial law in New Jersey. We have to have a DWI is a criminal offense. And lastly violent juvenile offenders should know that they're going to be treated as adults. Let's stick with the issues and have a great debate. Mr. Andrews your next. I'd like to thank my fellow candidates and the sponsors of the debate and my fellow citizens of the state of New Jersey for this chance to talk about the future of the state of New Jersey. We cannot afford four more years of Governor Christine Todd Whitman skyrocketing property taxes jobs leaving our state the highest auto insurance premiums in America. Governor Whitman is politics as

usual. We can't afford it she governs by listening to politicians by reading the polls and by doing anything she possibly can to get past the November election. In my seven years as a United States congressman three years in public service and county government prior to that I've governed by listening to my constituents and listening to my convictions. As I travel around the state of New Jersey I hear what people say they want me to do as their next governor and I'm ready to do it all invest in our classrooms and cut our property taxes. I will say no to the corporate polluters and protect our environment. And unlike Governor Whitman I won't stand next to the insurance companies. I'll stand up to the insurance companies. So let us begin tonight. Let tonight be known as the beginning of the end of politics as usual under Governor Christine Todd Whitman thank you. Mr. McGreevey thank you. My name is James McGreevey I'm the mayor of Woodbridge Township the fifth largest community in our state. For the past three and a half years we have seen this governor minister what's of grave

concern is that automobile insurance rates have skyrocketed. Property taxes are up virtually in every community and every school district in this state college tuition. Become increasingly difficult for working families to be able to afford to send a son or daughter to a local state college. And while all this is going on environmental protection has been cut and this governor has basically governed by a gimmick. She's now proposing a 2.7 five billion dollar bond issue frankly to finance her gimmickry. What we need is leadership. As mayor I know it's about improving the lives of working families and I believe just as I took on the insurance companies to require insurance companies to pay for mammograms to provide for the early detection of breast cancer we need an advocate who's going to take on the auto insurance industry frankly we need an elected auto insurance commissioner someone who's going to be working for us and not the industry and lifetime learning we need a new approach to education to provide for full time kindergarten pre-K programs and apprenticeship training. Working together with business and

government and education to train the next generation of American and New Jersey citizens. And lastly we need a responsible government that no longer operates by gimmick but plans and settles for the future of New Jersey citizens. Thank you. OK. Thank you gentlemen. You each have anticipated some of the questions which you'll get an opportunity to elaborate. The first question is to Mr. Murphy do you think it was right for Governor Christie Whitman to cut a state income tax rates by 30 percent. And if you believe that the lower income tax rates have led to higher property taxes in our municipalities What would you do to lower property taxes. Well I just proposed on Monday that we increase the tax on a pack of cigarettes by 25 percent to 25 cents. And what I intend to do as governor I will take that money and put it into education. You know it's been happening in New Jersey is we used to spend 42 percent of the state dollars contribute 42 percent of the cost of

education by the state. That's gone down to under 38 percent. And if that trend continues. Property taxes are going to continue to be forced up. This governor in our quote 30 percent tax cut has really just shifted taxes here in New Jersey and that's the reality of what's happening. We know that because she's asking us to pay for it over the next 35 years with the bond issue and it's unfair the citizens know it. We know it and it's got to stop. Mr. Andrews you have a minute rebuttal. Well Governor Whitman was wrong dead wrong in her tax plan for the people in the state of New Jersey and I sure would not have voted for it. Reducing taxes is a good thing but reducing taxes without cutting waste and government spending it ought not be there is a very foolish thing because what it leads to is borrowing money weakening the economy and higher property taxes. Understand this. Christie Whitman Governor Christie Whitman will go down as the largest tax increase are in New Jersey history. You don't have to ask me.

Sit at your kitchen table put your property tax bill down on the left hand side and your income tax return down on the right hand side. And you know the difference Governor Whitman's plan raise taxes hurt schools hurt cities and hurt seniors. Cutting taxes is a good thing but cutting taxes without cutting spending and cutting taxes by borrowing money is a very bad thing. And that's the reason we're going to beat Governor Whitman in this election come November. And McGreevey cutting taxes is a great idea. Provided you have the necessary revenues. Governor Whitman did the easy part. That is she cut the taxes she didn't do the hard part about making government work smarter. As a mayor of Woodbridge Township no one knows better than a mayor about the impact of property taxes on New Jersey. We have the second highest property taxes in the nation only behind New Hampshire which has neither sales tax nor an income tax. The property tax is a cruel tax. And when Governor Whitman cut state aid to municipalities and school districts ultimately it's borne by the property tax payer and now the governor wants to

finance this gimmickry by her proposed bond issue. Clearly she engaged in the easy part of the equation but she didn't make the difficult decisions in producing a more accountable government. And unfortunately the property taxpayers of this state have had to pay for her burden. Thank you. The next question goes to Mr. McGreevey. New Jersey has the highest auto insurance rates in the nation. What would you do if anything to change that. How much money do you believe if you have a plan that you could save. New Jersey motorists the great tragedy about the president auto insurance plan that the governor's proposes that it seemingly changes every week the governor has gone from no fault to basically no insurance. The concern that many of us have is that under this administration auto insurance rates have been allowed to increase 11 times costing New Jersey motorists an additional billion dollars out of our pockets. We need to make some basic changes first. I've called for an elected auto insurance commissioner. It's time to end 20 years of whether or not it's

been Democratic or Republican administration. Frankly there's an all too close relationship between the insurance commissioner and the governor's office. Allow the public to decide. Allow the people to have a vested interest in deciding who will be the commissioner so that the commissioner not only will be an advocate for the public but he or she will run on their record as to whether or not they've controlled rates. Secondly we have to end the automatic increases. It's a tragedy. This governor has frankly sold down to the auto insurance industry. We have to end surcharge and we have to end red line and individuals auto insurance rates ought to be based on how they drive not what community they live in. I sad tragedy is this now this governor at this late point in time decides this is an issue and she's proffered this newest proposals. We need a fundamental change in Trenton. We need a governor who is not only going to be an advocate for working families on this critical issue but bluntly this governor has betrayed our interest 11 times. We need an elected auto insurance commissioner. We need an end to automatic

flex rates and we also need further investigation into fraud because an investment in fraud research and fraud investigation will bring dividends along. I believe we can lower rates by double digit by upwards of over 10 percent. If we take a bold aggressive approach towards addressing this problem. Thank you. Mr. Murphy you have the first rebuttal. Thank you Bob. At the State of the state address that this governor gave in January she confessed that 15 percent of our automobile insurance premium was paid out in the fraudulent claims fraudulent and frivolous claims. And having said that she said that she was going to set up an 800 number for people to call in so that they can report on fellow citizens. We do know that fraudulent claims make up for a huge piece of your automobile premium policy. What I have proposed is that we crack down hard on uninsured drivers and and fraud and fraudulent claims and the fraudulent claims area. I am going to reduce automobile insurance premiums by 20 percent and

and make the companies take make up the difference. What they're going to do is bring those fraud claims and we're going to prosecute the people who were ripping off the public. We can actually do this we can force the rates down and we can make sure that good drivers don't subsidize subsidized uninsured drivers like you. Mr. ANDREWS Well politicians are the source of the auto insurance problem not the solution. I don't think we should elect an insurance commissioner So we have one more politician feeding at the trough. I think we should elect a governor who's going to stand up to the insurance companies and fight them the way that Governor Whitman has not. I wish Mike she had set up that 1 800 number a little sooner because the biggest insurance fraud in the state of New Jersey's Governor Christie Whitman for three years she sat there and ignored this problem. Here's what I'd do as governor I'd say to the insurance companies. Roll back your premiums. And if you don't you will lose the right not only to sell auto insurance to our people but lose the right to sell health insurance or homeowners insurance or life insurance or anything else. Either play by rules that are fair to New Jersey consumers or

lose your right to make money off of us here in New Jersey. That's what I do. I have a quick follow up that will just go in order and then we'll go to the next formal question and just answer this in 15 seconds if you order 20 seconds. How much do each of you pay in auto insurance. And do any of you have any surcharges or points. Start with Mr. McGreevey. Approximately fourteen hundred dollars. And I believe I have three points. We pay 30 $365. No sir. No surcharges no points but no fancy cars either. BOB Right now I pay one thousand nine hundred and $2 for two cars that we have. We have a high deductible 500 for collision. I have a daughter who's here in the audience who next June is going to be 17 so I can expect that to skyrocket up. I have two points. OK. Thank you gentlemen. The next question goes to Mr. ANDREWS. There is a bill pending in the state legislature to ban partial birth abortion. Would you sign it if you were elected governor. And what is your general position on the abortion issue.

I would not sign the bill that's pending in the legislature that would ban late term abortion unless unless there was an exception added with respect to the health of the mother as well as the life of the mother. Partial Birth Abortion is a horrible procedure. There is no one including me who could support it. But something else that's horrible is when a woman in her family is confronted with an awful situation where seeing the child birth through might mean her death or her crippling for the rest of her life or some other awful thing happening to that family. If if an exception is added that would ban that procedure unless the life or health of the mother were at risk. I like President Clinton would sign such legislation. I believe that the decision as to whether or not to have an abortion is the most personal private decision many people ever make in their lives. I would do everything that I could to encourage a young woman and my family not to have an abortion.

In fact I've done a few times within the privacy of our family just that. But I think the decision as to whether or not to have an abortion does not belong to the New Jersey state legislature. It does not belong to a bunch of politicians it belongs to women. The father of the children their religious advisers and their doctors. You know I think this is an issue that the far right has brought to the forefront of American politics because they do such a lousy job on everything else. The very same people who were cutting funding for Women and Infant Children and Head Start and programs for prenatal care are the ones making such a big issue out of this as governor without equivocation without doubt. I will protect the right of New Jersey women to choose. Thank you Mr. McGreevey. I believe the question of pro-choice is that indeed the most personal decision and I believe it has no place in the government sphere. So the question of late term abortion is a very difficult question but I believe most importantly there needs to be an exception for the

life and health of the mother for the life of the mother and the health of the mother particularly doing terrible circumstances that were provided. I would be able to support such a measure. Mr. Murphy thank you. You know this decision is so personal. It can't be poll driven. This is a decision and it's a tough question it's a decision that Marianne and I my wife and I sat and talked about. I have been pro-choice all of my life. This issue has arisen in the last 20 years or so since Roe versus Wade. I am a pro-choice candidate. The only exception that I would possibly approve that I would sign is a as a condition on the late term abortions that has protections built into it for the health and safety of the mother period. Thank you. The next question goes to Mr. Murphy. It's an education question you've touched all of you touched on this somewhat already. You also claim to be dissatisfied with Governor Whitman school financing play. What would you do differently. Would you give four school districts

more money and would you allow the suburbs to spend as much as they want. And would you eliminate or support her education standard provisions. If you're talking about core curriculum standards I believe that we should have broad curriculum standards. We should have high school students who are graduating who are able to read their diplomas. No doubt about that. But we have some of the finest schools in the country here in New Jersey. We have to we have to expand that creativity. You know the real promise of New Jersey is the promise of the future. When I look into a child's face I see promise and I know that that kid deserves the best education that we can give him or her. What I talked about earlier this week was a was was a new way to revisit education in New Jersey. I've agreed that I will and I intend to raise the the tax on a pack of cigarettes by 25 cents. We're going to take that money put it into education. We're going to reverse Governor Whitman is this investment in education. We really have to because the

kids deserve it. And as well we can set up programs where districts different districts can share their services. For instance in transportation you may have a special needs child who has to go out of district with special school special education. There's no reason why that district shouldn't share with two or three other districts that $25000 a year to transport that child and cut the cut the amount of money that you that you spend into a fraction of that. And we can also share with the program standards we can do much better in New Jersey. We can give a better education for less money. We can force down property tax rates and we can reverse the trend that Governor Whitman has engaged in. Thank you. It's McGreevey. I voted against the governor's measure. I believe what the governor did was frankly was lower the floor as opposed to raise the ceiling. I think it's important that we engage in lifetime learning that we approach education fundamentally differently. That's something that merely occurs between the ages of

6 and 18. We need to invest in pre-K programs so that as soon as the child is potty trained he or she is ready to enter into the school. We need full day kindergarten in order to guarantee that our children's minds are opened up. In addition we have to think about apprenticeship training working cooperatively with the business community with education to bring them together to provide for the necessary skills so that our young man or young woman are competitive in a world class economy. If we make our schools better then we'll make New Jersey work better. We need to bring together the business community and education community to provide for these quality jobs and to do that we have to train for a world class economy. Strangers you know there's a lot of people not watching our debate tonight. For a lot of reasons but one of those reasons is that there are school boards that are meeting around New Jersey tonight deciding whether to get rid of the school band or the football team or 7 guidance counselors or a speech pathologist. We need to lay the responsibility for that where it belongs at the

doorstep of Governor Whitman I believe in public education. I graduated from public schools in this state. Here's what I do to make them even better in the future. First I'd move the money from the administrative office to the classroom. There are too many trips to Disney World for the Board of Education too much carpeting in the superintendent's office. Not enough reading teachers. Second I would elevate our standards pre-kindergarten and smaller class sizes other programs and after school and summertime programs to help children as well. I think the plan is pretty simple. Cut the waste in the school budgets invest in the classroom and lower the property tax. Reverse the way that Governor Whitman has walked away from New Jersey's public schools. Let me just follow up quickly and start with Mr. Murphy and just go here in a very short time span. None of you responded to the part of the question which asked whether there should be a cap on what the suburbs or the wealthier communities should spend in terms of equalizing

spending with the urban districts. Do you believe that there should be some limit of what any community should spend. I want local taxpayers to make up their own minds but also what I want to see is accountability and education. We have to make the schools in the state accountable to supply more money to local districts. We have to make the schools accountable by getting rid of tenure for principals and administrators and we're going to make kids accountable so the kids who break bad who are on display in the classroom get them out of that class. OK. Mr. McGreevey do you think there should be a limit to what communities are considering. I think there has to be an acceptable threshold of state aid to every school district. But if an individual community decides pass that acceptable and fair threshold that they want to make a further investment that community by virtue of an open or free vote ought to be able to do so. Thank you Mr. Andrew answer your question directly. No I do not think there should be a cap on on any district. I don't believe in equal mediocrity. I believe in giving everybody in every district a chance to be the very best they can be in superior education.

OK. Thank you. The next question goes to Mr. McGreevey the casino reinvestment development authority was created to tax the casinos and used the money for economic development in Atlantic City and other communities in the States. Instead a sizable portion of this money has been used to directly benefit projects that involve the casinos. Do you think this is the proper policy and if you were governor would you change that. I would change his policy. What has occurred and frequently highlighted in the recent Star-Ledger focus is that what's happening in the state of New Jersey. The casinos are setting aside money these monies ought to be used for infrastructure for housing for bettering the quality of life within not only Atlantic City but throughout this state. What's happening right now is that these monies are being used to bankroll casino projects. This is the wrong approach. Unfortunately the money's flowing in the wrong direction. The money that ought to come from the casinos ought to be invested back into the community. And unfortunately what we see is it's being used for the

casinos for the casinos. Most recently we see this governor proposing utilizing upwards of $300 million to build a tunnel. This is wrong. Not that the tunnel is necessary to be built. But what is wrong is that the governor as a matter of priorities is willing to finance entirely a tunnel for billionaire casino mogul at the expense of the same time not providing the necessary needs for with the housing construction of our schools police and other opportunities. I think we need to have the vision the leadership and the know how to change that process to realize that the casinos have produced certain tangible results and benefits in the state of New Jersey but they need to meet their fair obligation to citizens of this state. And frankly the money that they invest in the development authority belongs to the citizens of this state to be used for infrastructure projects and to be bettering the lives of the community and the citizens of this state and not the inverse. Thank you Mr. ANDREWS.

As governor of New Jersey I will build that tunnel because I believe it will bring more jobs and more prosperity to the region and to the state. But I will not support corporate welfare and I think what's happened to the casino redevelopment act is it's become a form of corporate welfare and New Jersey style. If that tunnel's going to be built let's make sure it more than pays for itself out of New tax revenues to the people of the state as I hope and believe that would. I spent a lot of time in Washington fighting against corporate welfare. It certainly shouldn't start here in New Jersey but I believe the first priority for funds under the sea R-Ga. the act that you talk about should be to help the towns who bear the brunt of the new development. There's a lot of communities in Atlantic County and other places that have to build new schools and new roads and new sewer plants that are not getting their fair share. I believe those monies can help everyone in the state but frankly after the first help those who are most burdened by the new development that takes place but no more corporate welfare out of the sea or here. Mr. Murphy Bob the promise of Atlantic City. Twenty years

ago that was that the entire city was going to enjoy a renaissance. Now everybody who's been to Atlantic City knows that if you walk 100 yards away from any of those casino properties you see some some some pretty rough neighborhoods. The promise has not been capped. This is an issue the casino tunnel is an issue that I clearly disagree with my colleagues on that tunnel should not be built. One of the areas of Atlantic City that supports a decent middle class black community is going to have the tunnel run right through it. We can't afford to break up a neighborhood and we can't afford to pave a driveway for Steve Wynn. I'm not against development in the Marina District. That's fine. Let Steve Wynn build his own driveway. We should not be using tax funds to build a magic carpet for Steve when it's not right. It's not fair. I oppose it. OK. Thank you. Next question is Mr. Mr. Andrews and it's this controversial and complicated question of bonds and the budget which seems to be in the news regularly.

All three of you have challenged Governor Whitman's 2.8 billion dollar bond issue to pay off the unfunded state pension liability and put hundreds of billions of dollars into her state budget. All of you have said in one way or another that it's a gimmick. How would you balance the state budget and take care of the unfunded pension liability. Well I would balance the state budget by spending wisely what we take in. You know we send out of our pocket each year in our property taxes are our sales tax our income tax. I should say are in Cops our sales tax or on the tax we send to Trenton not through the property tax. 20 billion dollars a year. And I don't think that we're getting our $20 billion worth it all from the state of New Jersey. Let me tell you what I would not do. I've spent seven years in Washington working with both Democrats and Republicans in trying to stop the practice of borrowing money to run the government. I'm very proud of the fact that our president announced last week an agreement with the Congress that's going to permanently stop the practice of borrowing money to run the federal

government. It was not easy to do that and it was not easy to do that while protecting Medicare and Medicaid and education in the environment. But it's the right thing to do and President Clinton deserves credit and I'm ready to support him in that effort. What is insane to me is New Jersey is moving in exactly the opposite direction at this time. Governor Whitman wants to borrow almost three billion dollars. No I'm not against the government borrowing money. If we're going to get for it a new school a new road a new transit system. My daughter my oldest daughter is four years old. And I'm 39 by the time she is as old as I am tonight. This loan will be repaid and after $15 billion worth of payments we won't have one school. One road one transit system will have nothing to show for it. Understand this Governor Whitman doesn't want to borrow this money to get New Jersey into the 21st century. She wants to borrow this money to get her past the November election. I was the first candidate to oppose this. I will continue to oppose it because it is the wrong thing

for the people of the state of New Jersey. Thank you Mr. McGreevey. The tragedy of the Whitman administration is bluntly this is government by gimmick where there was the raid on TDY on charity care on so many different funds unemployment insurance. This governor has not made the tough choices and basically what the governor did is she consistently raided the pension fund and now at this particular point in time she wants to bond upwards of two point seventy five billion dollars. It's just not the Democratic candidates who think this is a ludicrous idea. The Star-Ledger the New York Times even the respected chairman Bob Litella of the Appropriations Committee calls it a wacko idea. New Jersey needs to do better. And as was noted this is going to cause a $15 billion debt. New Jersey will increase the size of its debt by a full third. What we need to focus on today is the fact that there's a $600 billion gap in the budget that can be addressed by readdressing priorities and focusing on those priorities. And during the course of the campaign we'll be talking about how to make government more efficient entrepreneurial government whether it's in the

use of Medicaid dollars or charity care. But we don't need to dig a further hole to pay for this governor's mistakes. OK. Thank you Mr. Murphy. But how do we close that gap. Well it shouldn't be through borrowing money for the next 35 years. I think everybody knows that that is absolutely insane. The governor has been pushing that hard. In fact the other day she threatened to withdraw state police protection for counties like Warne and Hunterdon in Sussex County. If they don't come along if she doesn't get those senators to vote for her plan. Now that's the equivalent of me telling my kids that if they don't eat their vegetables I'm going to leave them over in the Port Authority bus station for a while. That's no way to conduct business. And that's what she's been talking about. It's it's frightening. But the fact is we don't even know that the depth or the breadth of this problem. A couple of years ago the internal revenue service sent letters to the to the state of New Jersey that the governor rushed into court to keep from the citizens. Well we know what this problem is all about. Then we can begin to solve it. But the governor has brought us to the precipice and

and it's a scary situation. Thank you. We'll now move to another segment of our debate. We will go to the audience for questions. The first question will be for Mr. Murphy. Well thank you Bob. This is Linda McCartney. She is from Elizabeth and I love to ask a question about takeover of schools in New Jersey. If I'm correct I believe that all three of the candidates are opposed to the state's takeover of the schools in the school system in Newark. I was wondering if that is true what are the alternatives. What are your proposed solutions. Mr. Murphy for me I have I have not stated that I am opposed to takeover. What I am opposed to is takeover for takeovers sake. Linda The fact is is that in the city of Newark the state has stepped in taking over the schools put it under their control and there have been no improvements in education. We can't have take over when the school system has class sizes of 20 and 25 kids per class when the school system doesn't have enough chalk or books to teach the

kids. When the textbooks were printed since and since the time of the Vietnam war if there was going to be takeover they have to be improvements we have to look at the way we're educating kids in the urban areas. The first part should be to have pre-K and all day kindergarten because the kids and the kids in New Jersey and in our. And the special needs districts deserve a special boost. Those kids shouldn't start a 100 yard dash 40 yards behind everybody else. They need an opportunity and this and the Supreme Court and our Constitution and our moral obligation is to give those kids an opportunity. We can't rush in and just take over a system and tell and tell the students and the teachers and the parents that we're going to sit there as caretakers we have to make a difference in education. I want to see that returned to the parents returned to the teachers and focus on the kids. That's where our attention belongs and that's where it hasn't been under this Governor. Mr. McGreevey the issue of take over is the question of takeovers Claire I believe that takeovers

have not worked in the state of New Jersey. If you look at the City of New York and have a discussion particularly with Mayor James if you look to the city of Jersey City and talk to Brent Schoeller reality is that scores are falling particularly in Jersey City. So takeovers have not been successful. We need to do better. When you look at those parents who originally called for a takeover. Right now they're frustrated they're cut out of the process. They're not involved in the decision making. We need to rewrite the takeover law to call for a partnership and that is a partnership that provides for pre-K programs full day kindergarten working cooperatively also with the business community to provide for the necessary training that those young women and men graduate high school. So what we need is a partnership between parents the educational community the city in business to move these cities forward not a takeover. Frankly William ostracizes parents and the educational community standards one of the first things Governor Whitman did when she was involved in the takeover of the schools was to go and whitewash the walls and several of the buildings

and all the cameras showed up and all the reporters showed up. I couldn't think of a better metaphor for Governor Whitman's approach to this problem and that whitewash the problem. Hope everybody forgets it but don't really do anything to help the children and those involved in the school. Here's what I'd do. I'd make sure they got their financial house in order I'd be sure that I want to be sure that every dime we send to any school district is spent on helping children and not on building a political bureaucracy. Once that's done I want to return community control of the schools. See I believe that people in all neighborhoods know what's best for their children not just people in suburbia. I believe the best judge of a child's education is his mother or father or her mother or father or guardian and not some bureaucrat sitting in Trenton. Let's make them clean up their books. But then let's give power back to the community is from Bluefield and he has a question about the developmentally disabled. What do you plan to do to help the developmentally disabled.

The waiting list for residential services. That's the question of the developmentally disabled and I've had the pleasure of working with Larry. I've worked with the developmentally disabled since I was in high school. Woodbridge Township we have a developmental center approximately 85 percent of the clients. They are profoundly retarded. Fifty percent are non-ambulatory. Governor Whitman had time to come in and campaign against Jim McGreevey three times. But unfortunately during that decision making process she didn't have time wants to come in. We asked people from their churches their schools their VFW to sign petitions. We've stopped the closing of Woodbridge developmental. The tragedy is though in 1998 that this governor will close North Princeton developmental center whether it was Governor Kaine or governor or use a governor Byrne or governor Cahill no governor has ever closed the developmental center. There are 4000 people on a waiting list today in the state of New Jersey waiting to get into a center or community based housing. The tragedy is in the state of New Jersey that this

governor intends to close this facility. When I was down at North Princeton many of the individuals there many of the parents there are elderly women frankly recognizing their own mortality. They thought their son or daughter would have a safe place in which to resign. This governor is closing that center. And frankly these parents these mothers don't know what to do. This state needs to be better than that. Whether it's closing a developmental center or a more thorough psychiatric frankly this governor's targeting among the most vulnerable populations we're not talking about cutting the parkway law. The irony is also we received matching funds upwards of 50 percent for the operation of these centers. These centers work they operate and they provide a quality service for these clients. New Jersey needs to be better. And also whether it's the developmental centers or veterans homes the governor's attempt to privatized the veterans homes frankly I think she's betrayed the interest of those who need help. This state has never walked away from the disabled has never walked away from the veterans who proudly serve this nation. And now

unfortunately we have a governor who was betraying these interests. Thank you Mr. ANDREWS. Larry here's what I'd do as your governor. I would honor the commitment the voters made in the bond issue several years ago and make sure the money is used to help the developmentally disabled and not to balance the governor's budget. I would make sure that the support services the education of the placement services the job training are in place to help those needy citizens as well. I picked up the newspaper today and I read that Governor Whitman with great fanfare talked about adding 200 Dreyfus case workers. I wish I believe that she was doing that because she's horrified as I am at the quality of child care that's taking place in the state. I think she's doing it because this is an election year and because we've raised this issue and talked about her failure to take care of those who cannot take care of themselves I believe in honoring my promises a promise I'll make to you. I won't cut the sales or income tax. I'll take the money that comes in and help New Jersey's neediest citizens such as the developmentally disabled.

Mr. Murphy thanks Larry. When I was an undergraduate at Georgetown I worked with severely handicapped to young people at a school in Northern Virginia. I know that the love and the compassion that those kids have. I felt it a plus I was able to hug those kids and help those kids. I also know that my youngest brother Tommy is legally blind and he enjoyed the benefit of going up to Camp Marcella up in Rockaway Township. Well that program has been cut back. Kids who can't say were able to mainstream with the schools. But when they were up that camp they were with other peers and they felt very special. That program is being threatened by this governor. It's sad. And as Rob said that 300 million dollar bond issue that was on the ballot that the citizens approved hasn't been floated. The community housing that we need for people who are developmentally disabled to develop the developmental community development and development disabled community is begging every year to have that housing have those funds. I'm going to

reverse that. I'm going to make sure that that money is spent to make sure that those disadvantaged people in our community are able to go where they need to go and be treated the way they need to be. All right. Thank you. Thanks Tony. All right gentlemen this is Nancy Garion from Haslet. She has a question about school vouchers. OK. On my daughter's ninth grade social studies class into question along that she would like to address. How do you feel about the education voucher proposal that would reimburse the parents of private school students was registered already. I opposed the tuition private school voucher idea. I oppose it because I think you don't strengthen education by weakening the public schools. I don't think you drain the public schools or the resources they need to have smaller class sizes or pre-kindergarten or more guidance counselors or more access to technology. I just don't believe that you build something up by tearing it down. Now I fully understand that parochial and Hebrew and Christian schools in this state do a

tremendous service as do other schools to the children of New Jersey. I'm concerned though that part of the quality of those schools would be undercut if you begin to get public money involved in their administration. In my 10 year career in public life seven years in the Congress and three years in county government I've never seen a situation where public control doesn't follow public money. The strength of our parochial schools of our Hebrew schools schools of our Christian schools and others is their independence is their ability to teach what they think is right when they think it's right to teach it. I would never want to see that independents jeopardized by private school vouchers. This is nothing more than a retreat from our basic obligation to make the public schools better. I think you make them better by early intervention learning for children younger than five by smaller class sizes particularly in the primary grades by services like guidance counselors and afterschool programs and summer programs by technology. I've embraced

President Clinton's goal of making sure that at least by the fifth grade every student in America is online by replacing schools that are 50 and 100 years old with the new schools that children deserve. Mark me down as a no on private school vouchers. Mr. Murphy. Nancy I am the product of a Catholic school education. I went to Blessed Sacrament School in Trenton in Lansing. In fact last Saturday night I went to celebrate the 75th anniversary of Blessed Sacrament founding. It was a great school I got a great education but I am not prepared to spend public tax dollars to support Blessed Sacrament or any other parochial private Christian or or Hebrew school in the state. Public money should go to public education. It was my late stepfather Governor Richard J. Hughes who provided the funding for transportation because there's nothing nothing inappropriate about that. We can help that we can help private schools but we can't start doing direct tuition vouchers. That's like turning your back on public education. I'm not prepared to do it.

And that's my answer. Mr. McGreevey yes I oppose the concept of vouchers for two simple reasons. One the state of New Jersey frankly is failing presently to provide the necessary financing for public school education. The amount has dropped under the Whitman administration from 42 percent to 38 percent thereby increasing the property tax burden to working families of this state. Secondly I've also attended parochial schools and I recognize the sacrifice that my parents make. Parochial schools by their nature teach articles of faith whether it's a Hebrew Academy a parochial school or Christian daycare. And we need to respect that separation and most importantly we also need to further invest in full day kindergarten and pre-K program so that we focus at education at the earliest opportunity. We also need new need to do more after high school. And that is apprenticeship training bringing together the business community the education community to provide the necessary skills so that our young man and young woman have the ability to compete in a world class economy that will

bring the jobs to New Jersey. Thank you. The next segment of this debate will allow the candidates to ask each other questions the candidate gets to ask each component a question and we will begin with Mr. ANDREWS. I'd like to ask my first question. My friend Michael Murphy. Michael Monday I announced a specific plan to try to reverse Governor Whitman skyrocketing college tuition problem which as you know has seen college tuitions go up at our public colleges and universities and community colleges at a record pace. I'd like for you to tell us what your plans are to try to reduce the explosion of tuition costs under Governor Whitman. Rob as you know I am the only candidate and this stage or in this race who has agreed and knows that we need more money to run the state of New Jersey that I have already proposed a 25 cent PAC increase in cigarette taxes. I'm willing to step out of the boxes as you know Rob. You've suggested that you are taking a four year no tax pledge. The reality is is that we need

to invest in education. We know that that college tuitions are going through the roof middle class New Jerseyans working families can't send their kids to Rutgers or Stockton state or Trenton State College because the costs are prohibitive. This governor got rid of the department of higher education which was working fine. We had lower tuitions we had affordability and accessibility. I know that as governor I'm going to be able to reverse that trend. Mr. McGreevey you have one minute response. Well the governor has provided I think as Mr. Murphy noted the governor has allowed tuition increases to go on exponentially. And frankly under the former council of higher education there was more stringent control. I propose that tax credit that would be applicable to one state income tax that is upwards of eight hundred dollars that a family would be able to deduct in order to afford going and sending a child to a state college or state university. The governor has frankly forfeited the ability to send a young man or young woman from a working family to a state college. We need to reverse that not only in providing for the tax deduction but also to

stringently control increases in in-state tuition. OK. MR. You get to ask the next question. Too Michael Michael is a former assistant prosecutor I am very much aware of your performance and your dedication as a prosecutor. Morris County we've done three strikes and you're in in the state of New Jersey. We've taken some tough measures against crime. Well one of the things that frankly challenges the state of New Jersey is the question of juvenile crime where we look to the fact that it costs upwards of $32000 a year to incarcerate an individual. We have to be mindful of the fact the challenge not to incarcerate an entire generation and how to break that cycle of violence. How do we ensure that the next generation is accountable. Be interested in your ideas particularly on juvenile justice and how to break that cycle of violence. Actually the answer is rather simple. We have to see to it that we have decent quality world class really education in the cities of this state and in a few years in about

10 years I've seen a study that suggests that we're going to spend as much on incarceration in this country as we're going to spend on education. We can't provide young people with lousy education or no education and hope that they live productive adult lives. One of the things that I have proposed in the juvenile justice however is that when violent juvenile offenders commit adult crimes violent crimes they should be tried as adults. It's abundantly clear in this state that a 17 year old like Kathy Weinstein's murder yes kind of notion county took eight months to get the criminal justice system to agree to try that in person as an adult. They should be presumed with that type of offense to be tried as an adult. I'm going to change that New Jersey. I know what's right with the criminal justice system. I know what's wrong with it. We can make significant changes. I've got the bill in the state senate great strangers anyone who heard the horrifying audiotapes of the young woman's murder in Ocean County last year certainly has to agree that there comes a time when juveniles should be tried as

adults. And that certainly was one of those times I believe though that in addition to that it's all well and good to tell our young people what to say no to what we ought to start to tell them what they can say yes to as well. It starts with education with programs after school and in the summer and for homework and mentoring. It continues with job training and reinvestment in New Jersey cities. It is a myth and it frankly it's a myth held mostly by the Republican Party that you can have a prosperous state with poor cities. That is a lie and a myth. You can never have a prosperous New Jersey you can never have growth throughout the state if our cities are suffering. So let's invest in our cities let's bring jobs and capital back. And that's I think the probably the very best anti-crime program that there is. Thank you. So where if you get to ask a question of going over there to Jim Jim you know that I've recently proposed that 25 cent a PAC increase on cigarettes and I have and I've also proposed that we're going to invest that

in education and that we're going to be able to reverse the trend that you just mentioned of going out of having the state and the amount of state money supplied to education going from 42 percent to 38 percent we have to reverse that trend. I think you mentioned that you agree with that. Last year the cigarette tax was in the legislature. It's my understanding that you that you were you did not sponsor that legislation and it failed. Would you be willing to join me next year and proposing a 25 cent increase in the tax on cigarettes. Michael the reason why I believe that fails is when you're looking at the educational question you're looking towards an 11 billion dollar question the amount of monies raised projected by Office of Legislative Services is anywhere between 150 to 200 million dollars. Clearly that would help but doesn't provide the substantial assistance necessary to address the problem. Fundamentally New Jersey has to challenge the status quo. And that is we can no longer accept the escalating property taxes. The only way that we're going to break this cycle is if frankly we look to see how we finance public school education in the state of New Jersey.

And we need to do better. If you look for example at Governor Engler in Michigan what he's attempted to do and that is working cooperatively on a bipartisan basis shift the Reliance away from the property tax. And that's what New Jersey needs to do. Unfortunately this governor is increasing the reliance on the property tax. Last year in my own community of Woodbridge Township. The total amount of state aid cuts was approximately two point five million dollars to the school district and municipality combined that results in increasing burden on the property taxpayer. No mayor knows that better. When you have the occasion to walk through a particular neighborhood and a senior citizen frankly is begging for so all the payment of a fourth quarter payment of taxes we need to challenge the present system. We need to do better than the status quo. One way to do that frankly is to evolve the citizens of this state. Frankly in removing our reliance on property taxes asking the citizens of the state to referendum do we want to move away from this reliance. I think we should do it was done in the state of Michigan. We clearly need to look

at alternatives. I think we need a bold approach to break the status quo and frankly ensure that the most important thing that a working family has is a home. If we do nothing. Property taxes will continue to escalate. We need to break this cycle and frankly shift the way we finance education in our state. Strangers. I think the answer the question was No he was not answer. No I would not. Mike I'll tell you why. I represent people who when they go to the store and buy something want full value for what they buy. The $20 billion that our people are sending in printed every year is not getting us full value in return. A couple of years ago we sent $500000 to Drew University to bring the opera to Drew University. We spent a quarter of a million dollars on the bicycle Hall of Fame in Somerville. With all due respect to my friend from Marrus County we spent 200000 bucks on a museum in Morristown in Maras County. Governor Whitman's own Treasury Department says she's wasting a hundred million dollars a

year by buying things for 50 bucks that she can buy for 20 until I am satisfied that we're getting every last nickel of value out of that $20 billion. I am not going to reach into the pockets of the people of New Jersey and demand more from it. I'm going to demand more from us in government the way we're starting to in Washington. Thank you. Mr. Andrews you have the next question and it was should be for Mr. McGreevey. I'm going to ask my friend from Woodbridge. Jim in the mid 1980s there was a pipeline running through Ocean County run by Ciba-Geigy and it was spewing hundreds were millions I should say of gallons of cancer causing pollution into the oceans. New Jersey's waterways. There was a very simple and powerful bill introduced in the legislature that would shut off the pipeline. It was the right thing to do. You were working as a lobbyist in 1988 and you lobbied against the passage of that bill working for a large corporation here in New Jersey. I think that was wrong. And I want you to tell us tonight why you think it was right to lobby against that bill that would shut off that pipeline.

Well firstly my role most importantly as an environmentalist I supported the pollution prevention law. I sponsored the pollution prevention act which reduced the amount of hazardous waste emissions in this state by 50 percent. And in addition I sponsored the legislation in the General Assembly that would prohibit nighttime oil transfers during this time. I believe that the right course is to work cooperatively with business in the environmental community to design a long term plan to work cooperatively in reducing the amount of hazardous waste emissions and emissions not only in this community but indeed through communities throughout the state of New Jersey. And on that particular issue I believe that clearly we need to expand the right to know we need to expand the amount of hazardous and chemical knowledge that throughout the community. This governor unfortunately has attempted to curtail the right to know the amount of substances that we are aware of and we need to move in the opposite direction. Mr. Murphy you are not in the legislature but you have a chance to respond in

some way. I asked him to answer the question. I know that it's difficult for me to respond to that answer candidly. I'll just take off on an environmental question. I have I have I have proposed that as governor I will I will create an Office of Environmental prosecutor environmental fines in this state of going from 31 million under the prior administration down to 6 million. What we need is an environmental prosecutor with the power to reach out investigate indict and convicted criminal polluters. We know that people who are criminally polluting the environment we have to get tough. A lot of business has worked the right way they try to play within the rules. Others are breaking the law. They should go to jail. That's what we need. That's what I'll do as governor. Mr. McGreevey you have the next question I believe you have a chance to put Mr. Andrews on the spot if you so choose. I just want to say that Rob I do not know the specifics of the respective Bill and I will

look at it and try to provide you with a satisfactory answer. The question Rob and it's not only my contention but clearly the contention of numerous reporters whether it's the Star Ledger whether it's the Philadelphia Inquirer. Obviously you've had a long track record of voting with the opposition with Speaker Gingrich on numerous bills. Did you voted with Speaker Gingrich. Probably more than any member of the New Jersey delegation. One thing is of concern is not the fact that you voted with Mr. Gingrich but that's a matter of personal decision. But particularly on one particular bill the Gingrich welfare proposal that bill that you voted for in fact I believe one of nine Democrats in the entire nation to vote for that bill would have placed 2 million children into poverty. In addition it would cut lunch programs to children and school breakfast programs would have dramatically cut aid to disabled children. As a matter of conscience when we're talking about children and education and the need to provide a long term focus for our children

and the next generation how in good conscience could you vote for such a bill that frankly would jeopardize the interest of children in our state as well as the nation. Jim I know that the people that you hired to run your campaign told you to ask me that question so thank them for me because now I have a chance to set the record straight on where I really stand. When Newt Gingrich put forward his budget to cut Medicare Medicaid education the environment I fought against it I worked against it and I voted against it every single time. Now I'll answer your question. Unlike the fact that I'm still in the hands of mine I will answer your question. I voted for the first version of welfare reform and I want to tell you why did. You can either walk away from the table or have a seat at the table to try to make things better. As a legislator I always try to make things better. I voted for that bill and I've been active on welfare reform for a long time Jim. I created eighteen hundred jobs to move people off of welfare to work in Camden County along with my

friend Senator Wayne Bryant. But I got active on that bill for this reason. There's a woman that I came across in candidate on Saturday named Kim had. She is 41 years old. She's been on welfare her entire life because of the work that I did as a freeholder and later as a congressman on welfare. She's working today as a health educator. She's working educating people about the risk of cervical and breast cancer. And she her family is in a whole different track than it was she is better off and ask her have your opposition research people talk to her she's better off today because we took a risk to change the welfare system. When President Clinton signed that bill it was a better bill because people like me got child care into the bill. So I'd opt for child support into the bill. Got a job training program into the bill. And when Senator Torricelli and President Clinton and I put that new law into effect we knew we could make things better for the country. Thank you so much for giving me a chance to clear up three months of distortions and inaccuracies about that issue.

Mr. Murphy would you like your say. Yeah. I actually I I'm going to depart just a little bit. I sense that there's a little animosity here. And actually I have in the beginning of this talk Bob in the very beginning when I did my opening remarks I said we really have to stay on the issues. The common goal here is to defeat Governor Christie Whitman next fall. I would hope that both of my colleagues here will take a pledge to stay positive and don't do the Republicans dirty work for us. I think it's so important that we all stay on the issues and not to not attack one another. When you're put your ads together I hope that that doesn't happen. I hope that that we can get along with if we disagree will disagree. But I would hate to see TV ads come up where these debates break down into acrimony because we're all Democrats first and candidate second. Thank you Mr. Murphy. You have a question for Mr. ANDREWS. I do. Rob I forget when he was maybe a month or so ago you were down at the State House. You were the first one out to attack the pension bond. But we're all we're on the same page on

that one. And at that time you took a pledge for years. No new taxes. It was courageous. But do agree that there may be instances in state government and in federal and local government where a crisis may arise or for instance if the Supreme Court orders that we fund schools at a higher rate to begin to go in and help these special needs schools. Are you willing to at least back down from that four year pledge at this time. Well Mike I certainly no no I'm not. Because when I make a commitment I keep it and I will tell you I'm certainly aware of the fact that where we have emergencies or true public crises that an elected official has a responsibility to go to his or her constituents and explain that if we had a true emergency I certainly would. But you know I came to Washington seven years ago and a lot of people told us there was no way that we could ever get the deficit down and bring it down to a balanced budget without huge cuts in all kinds of programs that would hurt people. Now

Mr. Gingrich and the Republicans tried to do that but we fought them and we stopped them. President Clinton showed the way that by attacking things like corporate welfare and by redundant services and inefficient services and government that you can reduce the deficit bring it down to nothing as we're going to do with this new bill and provide tax relief to people at the same time. I really look at this issue this way. If the people of New Jersey believe that they are getting their $20 billion worth out of their sales tax their income tax their Turnpike tolls their motor vehicle registrations then they should vote for someone else and not me. But if they believe that they they're not carrying their $20 billion worth if they think there's too many hundred thousand dollar plus political people on the payroll if they think that maybe we could get by next year without a half a million dollars for the opera at Drew University then I think they'd agree with me that the way to run this government is to look at every nickel we spend every line out in the budget and make sure it goes for the priorities that we believe

in as Democrats education environmental protection helping our senior citizens growing our economy making New Jersey cities great again where I grew up. I know it's true you $20 million is a lot of money. And I think we're not getting our $20 billion worth. That's why I took the pledge. That's why I'll keep it. OK. I believe Michael one of the major problems is how we view government. Frankly this governor has not been willing to reinvent government. A few classic examples within the division of Medicaid we expand approximately $1.9 billion. Sad reality is in the state of New Jersey we don't provide necessary home health care. We could take care of for seniors at home for the cost of one in a nursing home. But instead we choose to provide for nursing will cost without giving people the availability of home health care. The same with charity care. Frankly the only opportunity for charity care Frank is through the emergency room. We need to do so much better with clinics that provide for early and more cost effective care. So it's about reinventing government and also strengthening and making sure that we squeeze

every dime out of government and also looking at possibilities to make government work more effectively. But I think we have time for several more questions for me in which we will have two minute responses and then one minute rebuttals are going along much faster than we had planned. But we're prepared with plenty of questions and this question will go to Mr. Murphy. New Jersey suffers from some of the worst smog problems in the nation. It has never achieved the national standards for ozone. Do you support more stringent auto emission tests to help solve some of New Jersey's air pollution problems. Bob a lot of our problems with air quality in this state come from the Middle East from the Midwest I'm sorry. There are coal burning plants out in the Midwest. We really need a federal solution because we're we're asking our citizens to have their cars flunk when we take them to the auto emissions that test testing standards because because we're really fighting a problem that's created out of state. We've

got to have aggressive leadership at the State House to go down and make everybody in Washington aware of the fact that our air is dirty. Not so much because of our automobiles but because of what's happening to our west. It's really not fair to ask New Jersey citizens to live to standards that they can. The people who don't have new cars. The people of old cars are deathly afraid that they're going to lose those cars some of that to some of those people. That's the biggest asset. They don't own homes. They have to get back and forth to work. They're going to drive into a motor vehicle station under this governor and have cars taken away from her from them. It's not fair. I think that we really need to address this issue on a nationwide basis. We can do it but we can't do it the way the governor suggested. So you're saying no I'm saying No I'm saying we stick to the standards we have but address the problem on a nationwide basis. The air is dirty here mostly because of our neighbors to the west not because what New Jersey Boys are doing we have great standards good regulations here what we really need in New Jersey is more enforcement of the existing standards.

Mr. Andrews you're in Washington is the national solution the answer or should the state clamp down on auto emissions. Well let me say this to you. Governor Whitman has had an election year conversion deathbed conversion as I see it on the environment. She's all of a sudden thinking about putting chemicals back on the right to know list she's restored cuts at the DDP. I next expect her to announce that she has a plan to make the wind blow from east to west to try to solve the problem that you're talking about. I would never weaken federal air pollution standards I think that would be the wrong way to go. But I would also never expropriate or take over the vehicles of the drivers of the state. I don't think it's fair to say to somebody driving a 1984 Ford that they have to spend $2000 to upgrade their auto emissions. They're driving in 1984 Ford for a reason. They probably don't have a whole lot of money. I favor voluntary compliance more car carpooling lower tolls for people who carpool flex time for employers but not forcing people out of their cars or forcing to

pay exorbitant bills. So maybe you need to preserve federal standards. The difficulty is how the Whitman administration has approached this problem. Frankly she's distinguish between those who have new cars and those that are old cars. She's basically permitting those with new cars to forfeit the ability to subject themselves to what all of us would be subjected to. And that is regular standard for what I believe must be done is that the governor must set forth an equitable approach and that is hold us all by the same standard. In addition we must gradually phase this in so as not to disrupt the lives of working families and most importantly I think the governor needs to work with the legislature on this question on a bipartisan basis and the working families. The proposal right now on the table I believe would have a devastating impact on those working families particularly those who have cars that are more than three years of age. All right you all seem to be in agreement. That next question is for Mr. McGreevey do you support the death penalty. And if not would you if you were governor or commute the death sentences

as a former assistant prosecutor I support the death penalty the death penalty I believe preserve society's right to take necessary action in the most extreme circumstances the death penalty though. However we only should be used in the rarest of circumstances. But before you get to the death penalty I think one of the major questions in this state is not only that if enforcement is not only that of strikes three strikes and you're in but what do we do about breaking the cycle of violence particularly for juvenile offenders. I support in fact right now I have a bill in the state legislature which would decrease the age of majority and that is for juveniles who commit violent crimes that they ought to be tried as an adult. But one of the most frustrating aspects was when I was an assistant prosecutor and we would see some of the smartest children committing crime after crime after crime and society would not do anything to address that crime. Frankly we need to break them out of that cycle of violence whether it's bootcamps or other alternatives in order that those children have the opportunity for a productive life.

Mr. Murphy Actually I've undergone a conversion on this issue Bob. When I was a lot younger I oppose the death penalty. But when you have seen what I saw as a county prosecutor and as an assistant prosecutor and Maurice County I came to the conclusion that that the punishment should fit the crime. There are situations horrific situations where individuals are brutally murdered with absolute wanton abandon. And there are people in this society who have forfeit their right to continue to exist in our ranks as a result of the heinous nature of their crimes. I support the death penalty. In fact as a county prosecutor we tried a case in Morris County where an individual was sentenced to death. He died of natural causes recently because the appellate process seems to take forever it's been since 1963 that anybody has been put to death in this state. I support the I support the penalty because there are people in our society who deserve it.

Striders I support the death penalty. I support using it only after we are absolutely sure that the defendant got a fair trial and the defendant was not a victim of race or any other kind of discrimination in Washington. That's why I voted for what's called the racial justice act that says that before you can put someone to death you've got to be absolutely sure that not only are they guilty but they're not being victimized because of the color of their skin or where they come from culturally. The real problem we have here in New Jersey is we've had a Supreme Court that thinks it's the state legislature the people of the state support the death penalty the way I do. But the Supreme Court has consistently blocked the execution of convicted criminals because a majority of the justices have not supported the death penalty. If necessary I will campaign for and support a constitutional amendment that not only lets us talk about the death penalty but let us use it so that people who are committing the kinds of crimes that Michael just talked

about receive the sentence they deserve. Thank you. The next question goes to Mr. ANDREWS. What is your position on affirmative action. And should the state set aside a fixed percentage of contracts for women and minorities. I support affirmative action. I think that the process of setting aside a fixed percentage of contracts is one that has worked at the federal and state level and I support its continuation. I am of the same view that President Clinton was on this issue which is we should mend it not end it. Formative action is not a perfect system. It has a lot of flaws that need to be corrected but I believe that there are the basic principle of getting everyone to the same starting line is the right principle. Let me tell you what I often hear I hear people say we should have a merit process only the only way you should get a job is if you score first on the test or if you're in the very best person under some objective system for the test the next time someone makes one of those speeches

ask them how they got their first job. Very often it's because they live next door to the bank president and got their start at the bank or they worked in the summer for the law firm because one of the partners in the firm was their next door neighbor. Well there's a lot of children in New Jersey and very often they tend to be minority children who do not live next door to the president of the bank or the partner in a law firm who don't have the connections to get that first step. I went to Bucknell University the finest university next to Rutgers and in all of America and you know alumni children have about one chance in two of getting into Bach you know and everybody else has about one chance in ten getting in the box. No. Now it just so happens that most alumni children of Bucknell are white because that's what most alumni are. No one calls that an affirmative action program. It's a good program because it promotes loyalty to the university across the generations. A program that promotes racial and culture and gender diversity is also a good program. I would veto it as governor. The

legislation presently pending in the assembly that would abolish affirmative action because I believe it's a step up for people who truly deserve it. Thank you Mr. McGreevey. I support affirmative action. I think affirmative action is necessary so that the workplace of the university is representative of America. I think the analogy that congressman used is a good one or the opportunity to work at Columbia University my alma mater. I thought that was the greatest goal and one of the things that we see is obviously we factor in to many different aspects into the equation but we need particularly if it's a child from the inner city they need the opportunity for a jumpstart where they're getting into as special university or looking at the job market. One of the great aspects of the American dream is frankly enabling everyone to realize their fullest opportunity. Affirmative action provides that America should say constant. I also believe that the president has sensibly amended the provision to stay within the context of the court decision. Him smurfing. Bob I've already plugged Georgetown my undergraduate school so like my

colleagues here I want to plug Seton Hall Law School where I went up in New York. But I see a day when affirmative action won't be necessary but I don't see it today and I don't see it in the foreseeable future. The fact is in this state and in this country until everyone has an equal opportunity in education then they can be able to compete on an equal level level in the job market it doesn't exist today we know that in New Jersey we know it around the country. Anybody who suggests that the days of affirmative action are over simply has to look to the board of directors at Texaco when they thought there wasn't a tape recorder in the boardroom and they referred to the little black jelly beans that get stuck on the bottom. The fact is that discrimination exists and until such time that everybody is on an equal footing. We need affirmative action. OK. Thank you. The next question will be on welfare. We'll go to Mr. Murphy. The success of New Jersey's welfare reform plan hinges on both finding jobs and childcare for those mothers leaving welfare for work. The waiting

list for the state's subsidized child care program is fourteen thousand names law. Would you make sure that daycare subsidies are available. And how would you do that. Absolutely. I have never been one who takes the position that we're going to be able to do this through gimmicks or smoke and mirrors. Those for that 14000 waiting list over the next 18 months as welfare reform comes upon us is going to grow geometrically. We can't wait and crisis manage as this governor has crisis manage so many issues like automobile insurance. She's crisis manage this pension bond she's a crisis manager. Every significant issue that approached her we need to be we need a governor and I will be that Governor who is going to make plans for the event. The advent of welfare reform. We need job training. We need to know that people are going to be able to make the transition from welfare to work and they're going to be able to take care of their kids. The women that I talked to mostly women that I talked to in

the inner cities say look if you're going to send me out there what am I going to do with my kids. Every mother regardless of where they live regardless of their race their age their background cares about the kids. We've got to take care of the kids first. The jobs will be there under Michael Murphy's administration. I will see to that. But we have to take care of the children first. Mr. Andrews I will support a major expansion of child care as part of welfare reform efforts here in the state. You know every politician including me for the last 20 years has made a speech about requiring welfare recipients to accept more responsibility. Now it's my turn to accept some responsibility. I voted for the welfare reform law that President Clinton signed and I'm willing to accept the responsibility as our governor to find the 60 thousand new jobs that are going to be necessary as people have their benefits terminated over the next five years.

When I was in county government we created jobs this way I'd like to continue doing it. We got a tourism group that came in and said they wanted the county to fund a hundred and fifty thousand dollars worth of promotional activities. They said it would create 2000 new jobs. We said fine then set aside 200 of those new jobs in accounting and bookkeeping and dietary in the hotel industry the racetrack for people you train in place off the welfare rolls. 200 people got work as a result of that. We have to find jobs for 60000 people as the next governor. I'm ready to do it. You say McGreevey I think daycare has to be subsidized in addition to subsidizing daycare one of the concerns are is the creation of jobs and that's not happening. The frustration that many of us have both Republicans and Democrats the best social welfare program in the world is a job that this governor is not creating the necessary jobs for those former welfare recipients. We need to bring business into the city. One of the ways to do that is frankly to provide for an earned income tax credit so that business recognizes a financial gain in providing the necessary businesses. We also have to be about redevelopment districts encouraging the

private sector to come into urban areas set up shop recognize a low level of property tax and also recognize a financial incentive to providing jobs for former welfare recipients. If we don't work Wopper Tivoli with the private sector to bring in these jobs this will be a failure. And this has to be the highest priority. In addition to daycare subsidies. Thank you. We have some time left for a few quick questions before the closing statements. If you could just answer these briefly within maybe 30 seconds to a minute maybe the answer will be a yes or no. We'll start with. Well you could elaborate if you choose but you can also be brief. Mr. McGreevey you the first question should the speed limit be higher than 55 miles an hour in New Jersey. I would maintain the present speed limit I would raise it to 65. Particularly in areas that are not as heavily populated. I think it would help traffic flow would not impair auto safety and I would raise it to 65 in many areas of the state the

turnpike the Parkway I would certainly do it south of Exit 11 on the turnpike. Sorry about Woodbridge there. I was in the less populated areas I think that we ought to have a 65 mile an hour speed when it's ready. Bob the 55 mile limit is unrealistic. Everybody in this state. Well most people go about 65 miles an hour on the on our major thoroughfares. You go 55 miles an hour on the turnpike. Watch out behind you. It's unrealistic it's unfair we have to catch up with the rest of the nation. I drive up often to friends in upstate New York. I go up to 87. We get on the New York Thruway I'm going the same speed I can fast like Governor Whitman got caught. I go about 65 miles an hour. It should be realistic. We should raise it on the major thoroughfares. Up to 65. The next question will be for Mr. Andrews if elected would you accept the 130 $5000 salary as governor is allowed by law or continue to freeze the salary at $85000 as Governor Whitman and Florio have done.

I would except the hundred and thirty five thousand dollars salary rather gladly. I have a four year old and a two year old and a nightmare every night about tuition. It's very nice of Governor Whitman to accept the salary freeze my assets are slightly less than hers and I don't think that I could afford to work so I would accept the full salary. OK. Yeah. Actually it reminds me of a story from my family and when I was growing up in 1965 my father Governor Hughes was re-elected and he line item veto his own raise it was $5000 a year the salary I think was going to go from 35 to $40000 a year. My mother for 10 or 15 years threatened to sue him for the balance I have. Right behind you I can see my wife Maryann and she knows that I've sacrificed in this campaign and left my law firm or took a leave of absence and I haven't gotten any salary since January. My daughters are here. One's going to be going to college in two years. She's bright. I know she'll get into a great school hopefully Georgetown.

OK so your answer is yes she will accept her $35000. You bet. Maybe I would. Clearly the McGreevey don't have the same means of the weapons but I believe that symbols are important. I would accept the freeze on the present level salary compensation. OK thank you we have time for one more quick question. Sure. And this would go I guess to Mr.. Mr. Murphy it's your turn to talk. Let's make it quick. Should the state spend money to bring the Yankees to New Jersey. Should they build a stadium provide free land provide other monetary incentives for state taxpayer money. Make it quick. As long as we don't bring the Mets if I'm not willing to devote state taxpayer money to invite George Steinbrenner into Jersey the the Meadowlands is a wonderful gem but we can't take dollars and we need for education and bring the boys and pinstripe over. Mr. Andrews we have to take George Steinbrenner with the team. I would never want to bring a sports team if it cost us money. If it made a profit if it

brought revenue in it was a net gain. I'd talk about doing it yes. Oh I believe that while it may be a noteworthy goal. The reality is that New Jersey can afford it presently right now out of the general revenue fund. We are spending money for the Sports and Exposition Authority. So I believe the answer appropriately is no. All right. We it is time for closing statements and we will begin with Mr. ANDREWS. Well I would like to thank the sponsors of this debate and my fellow candidates and the citizens of the state of New Jersey for this chance to talk about New Jersey future you Jersey needs a governor who's walked in the shoes of the people of the state. When I hear a young mothers talk about struggling to move their families off of welfare and up the ladder. I've heard those stories before in my own home from my own mother because she grew up on welfare in the 1930s during the Great Depression. When I look in the eyes of my fellow citizens and they've been the latest victim of corporate downsizing or privatization and I see the fear that they may lose everything they have. I've seen that fear before

in the eyes of my mother of my father when he was 61 years old and lost his job when I was 14. When I see young parents reach out their hand to guide their children through the drugs and crime and anxieties of the 1990s my wife and I reach out our hands every day to our two daughters to do the same thing. I've walked in those shoes and I want to reach out to every new jersey and to join our walk to a better New Jersey in the 21st century. You see I just don't want to ask for your vote tonight. I want to ask for your commitment to an inclusive strong New Jersey that doesn't leave anyone behind that walks in the shoes of the forgotten New Jerseyans. I'm ready to be the governor. Who remembers the person who pays the bills in the state of New Jersey. I thank you for your time and attention tonight. I think we should do this several more times before November. Thank you and good night. Thank you Mr. Murphy. I have to confess that I have been engaged in a 48 year love affair with this state. I'm crazy about New Jersey. I want to serve but I've.

I was raised here. I went to school here. I've practiced my profession here I've raised my own family here. I love this state. I'm an unabashed New Jersey fanatic and I want to serve it. And I know that as long as we talk about the issues in this race as long as we stay on issue and talk about the future of New Jersey as long as we talk about automobile insurance as long as we talk about education for the next generation of New Jerseyans we talked about the crime problem we talk about not running a casino tunnel through Atlantic City. We make sense to New Jersey. This election for the Democrats is about removing Governor Christine Todd Whitman from office. She she has not served best well this election is about the future of New Jersey and our children. It's not about Governor Whitman's future. It's not about going from the banks of the Delaware to the banks of the Potomac. It's about our future. I know that we can do better in New Jersey and I asked for your vote. I need your support. Thank you.

Thank you sir. Thank you. I was born in Jersey City and raised in that great community of Carteret and had an opportunity to go to some decent schools or virtue of my parents sweat and equity. I think the challenge of New Jersey today is the challenge is that it's always been there was a time when a graduate whether from Bayonne high a raspberry high he or she could get a quality job raise a family spend a couple of weeks at the Jersey Shore that's rapidly eroding. We need to bring that new jersey back. What I believe our citizens are looking for is an advocate somebody who represents the interests of working families whether it's on auto insurance reform the citizens of this they will never have to question what side Jim McGreevey comes down I am committed to the working families. That's why I supported elected auto insurance commissioner. I took on the insurance companies to require them to pay for mammograms for the early detection of breast cancer. We need someone who was going to be representing our interests. And it's also about lifetime learning having full day kindergarten pre-K programs making your educational system work better to ensure that New Jersey is competitive

into the next century. And also for the past several years both in the general assembly the state Senate. I've been debating these state issues. These are the issues that are going to be debated during the course of this campaign with the governor. And when we look most recently at this 2.7 five billion dollar bond gimmick. Clearly this is not new Georgian's future. Your DROs is future and should not be borrow and spend and further indebtedness. We need leadership. We need executive know how. That's what I've done and that's God willing what I'll do as governor. Thank you for your support. Thank you very much gentlemen for the spirited debate. And Tom back to you. Thank you Bob. And that concludes the first Democratic gubernatorial debate. We would like to thank the candidates and our audience here in the studio as well as the audience at home. I am Tavis Cheryl and for the staff of The Star-Ledger and News 12 New Jersey. Thank you for joining us. I