On the Record; #2528; Steve Lonegan

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efficient, environmentally responsible, and healthy places to live, learn, and work all across New Jersey. The Fuel Merchants Association of New Jersey and the National Whale Heat Research Alliance committed to saving energy and the environment, today's oil heat, intelligent warmth for your home. And by New Jersey's union masonry industry, building New Jersey green and safe with New Jersey craftsmen and contractors, industry information at imiweb.org. Promotional support provided by New Jersey Business Magazine, the magazine of the New Jersey Business and Industry Association, reporting business news for more than 50 years, reaching over 27,000 businesses statewide. Four years ago, there were seven Republican candidates for governor. Steve Lonegan was one of them, finishing fourth behind Doug Farrister, Brett Schungler, and John Murphy.

And ahead of Bob Schroeder, Paul D. Gatano, and Todd Calaguire, those six have largely faded from the state political scene, but not Lonegan. He's raised his profile, a former mayor of Bogota in Bergen County. He became state director of a group called Americans for Prosperity. He got arrested outside of governor corps nine town hall meeting on toll hikes. He's often referred to as a conservative activist. He's running for governor again this year, and he's our guest this week, joining us from our Newark Bureau. Steve, thank you for coming in. Mike, it's great to be here, thanks. Steve, in the face of this economic crisis, governor corps nine has chosen to put up a couple of hundred million dollars for economic stimulus measures, accelerate infrastructure projects, direct sum to foreclosure, direct sum to the increasing number of people in need. What would you be doing as governor? You know, Mike, what you just talked about is exactly the difference between me and John corps nine and the reason I'm going to win this election in November.

Steve, governor corps nine believes that the government is the answer to every one of our problems. A economic stimulus package is bailouts, well, means higher taxes in bigger government. New Jersey, historically, through our nation's history led this nation and economic development up till very recently. We led the nation out of every recession up till the 2001 recession. And the reason we have a lower start leadership in the area of economic prosperity and the reason we have declined to the 50th worth state in the country for business and we're seeing the outward migration of our friends and neighbors is because of one thing. And this is something I talk about when I'm out on the campaign trail all the time. And that as New Jersey is not being heard because we've been hit by a hurricane like Katrina or an earthquake like China or foreign invaders. We have one problem in New Jersey and that's the government. The government has been the problem that has harmed our economic prosperity and we can tackle that problem and we can fix it. John Korzayn, however, believes in big government. He worships at the altar of big government and he thinks, as I said earlier, that government

will be the answer to our problem. It is not, Mike. The answer to our problems is to free up the people of this state to achieve the best they can without the government being in their way. Obviously, I want to focus on this state, but in principle, does that mean that you oppose the economic stimulus package in Washington and the bailout of the past? Absolutely. Yes, and I'm on record as opposing the bailout of Wall Street and as opposing this economic stimulus package in its entirety. The best thing we can do in New Jersey is to get people working again nationally. All of them? No, Mike. I don't agree with you that all of them say that. There are those of us who believe in the power of the free market that understand that these government programs are going to raise taxes even higher, that put a bigger burden on the backs of working families in every American, and that's going to harm us in the long run. It may create a little short-term growth spur, but in the long run, it's going to continue to harm the economy because it's going to grow government even bigger.

Do we need roads and bridges? Yes, that we do. I support the idea of constructing roads and expanding our infrastructure, particularly in the state of New Jersey. And by the way, that's not by building a tunnel to New York. You know, that's on my list of things to talk about. So let's talk about it now since you brought it up. The state is committing more than a billion dollars between the poor authority and New Jersey transit, and the federal government working at eight or ten billion dollars for a tunnel that, again, conventional wisdom says is greatly needed by this very congested region. You disagree? The tunnel may benefit some people in the region. However, taking toll money from the Garden State Parkway and the New Jersey Turnpike and diverting hundreds of millions and billions of those dollars into a tunnel that will greatly benefit Manhattan, more than will benefit New Jersey, is not an appropriate use of those tolls. If that tunnel is going to work so efficiently, it should be able to generate much of its own revenue in the long term.

But what you're going to see in the long term to New Jersey's roads to the parkway in the Turnpike is that we are draining billions of our toll dollars that could improve those roads. And that's where toll money should be going. It's unfair to tax motorists say a toll payers in South Jersey, Central Jersey, those commuting from Ocean County so that train riders in Bergen and Somerset and Morris County can benefit from the convenience of a quicker ride into New York. Steve, I think I read recently that you proposed cutting state government or the state budget by 20 percent. Is that correct? That's correct. Where would you cut? Well, we could start department by department. We could look at the growth of government over the past decade. The fact that it's grown four to five times a rave inflation. We've seen a range of new departments that have been launched. The investigator general was going to fight waste and corruption. The office of the comptroller was going to fight waste and corruption. Would you eliminate those if you came to turn? I would eliminate the office of the comptroller. I would eliminate the office of the investigator general.

It's the inspector general. And I'm sorry, inspector general, you're correct. The other department that has grown incredibly over the past 30 years is the Department of Environmental Protection, which now employs thousands of employees. They have become judged during an executioner over every small business, every landowner in the state of New Jersey. They have done more to afford economic growth in the state than any other department. They need to be brought under control. I think they've actually lost personnel over the past five years. I'm not absolutely positive of that, but that's my understanding. You know, Mike, I'm really glad you brought that up because this whole statement by John Korsain that he's cut 7,000 jobs is totally misleading. They have a hard enough time to figure out how many employees they have today. But what's happened is they've shifted employees from being payroll employees to agency employees, to people going on to the state pension system, then coming back as consultants. They've used all kinds of tricks to create the illusion that they've cut the number of jobs.

If you go to the state's pension system and you ask them how many people on state pensions are now working for the state and other capacities while still collecting the pension, they can't even tell you that. What they will tell you, Mike, is that to do that, they'd have to write a special program to figure it out. That's how many employees they have. They need a special computer program just to figure it out. Let me ask you about a few state issues. Governor Korsain listed 20 or 30 things that he's accomplished in his state of the state address this week. I'm just going to pull a couple of them out or one of them at least. He's proud of getting the Highlands Master Plan enacted. What do you think of that? Anybody who's proud of taking the property rights of thousands of Americans without reimbursing them for their lost value, their lost inheritances, it's the biggest abuse of eminent domain in the nation. People are suffering, people are unable to keep their property. Would you take tax dollars, state dollars, and compensate those people and add to the

state budget? No, Mike, I would not take tax dollars. Would you allow development in a area sensitive to what a quality needs? I would overturn the Highlands bill and I would give control of zoning to the local mayors and council members and allow those communities to determine how they want their communities to develop. Because I believe the people up in the Sussex County and Highlands region can do a better job of making decisions on how they want their areas developed and the central planners can entrench. Governor Korsain signed the bill outlawing or doing away with the death penalty in New Jersey. Would you seek to reinstate it? Yes, I would seek to reinstate the death penalty and I would seek to keep violent prisoners and especially sex offenders in jail with a belong rather than putting them back on the streets. Where do you stand on abortion? I am pro-life. Would you try to change the way things are done in New Jersey if you became governor?

Well, if we came back with another partial abortion ban, I certainly would support that 100 percent and I will be appointing, unlike John Korsain, who will only appoint pro-abortion judges to the state Supreme Court. That is his litmus test. I will be willing to appoint and appoint good pro-life judges. And by the way, Mike, I look forward to the day I have the opportunity to line item veto the Planned Parenthood budget and the state budget. How much do we give to Planned Parenthood? At the last look, I am looking at the new budget. It is a shame. Millions of dollars, but at the same time there is no support for providing support to those who want to adopt mothers with unexpected pregnancies who would like to carry them through to completion. It is very unfair. The governor in the state of the state addressed this week talked about crime being down on his watch. 7 percent in the past 12 months, I think maybe 7 percent again the year before that.

Do his credit or happenstance? I think there is probably a number of reasons that caused that. It might be the outward migration of so many people from the state too. And also we have the state police doing a terrific job and local police forces should be given credit for that as well. School funding, I know it is an area that you are highly critical of. The governor is proud of the new school funding formula that he enacted where money follows the needy child that doesn't just go to the 31-abit districts. Your thoughts? Mike, I am so happy you brought up this issue because I think it is the single biggest issue facing the state of New Jersey. The course of education is the number one driving force behind our state's budget and property taxes as well. In the biggest problem we have in New Jersey is the so-called abit districts. You know the 33 districts that have now become the most expensive school districts in America. And according to some sources, E3 in particular, we are spending as much as $30,000 per student.

This is unconscionable as these children are continuing to receive a less than a mediocre education in almost every circumstance. This system is not working. It has been a miserable failure for more than a decade and it needs to be overhauled and it is entirety. I heard some people who believe in abit say that the test scores are on the rise, that progress is finally setting in after a decade or more. You don't accept that. We are going to have some progress after a decade and a half and billions of tax-tailed dollars and thousands of students going through these systems and coming out with an unable to compete in this economy. It is an outrageous to consider that they are going to after 15 years or so finally start making a difference. I want a difference right now for every student right now today. I am not going to wait 10 more years for these education. Are you going to get that on the cheap?

Are you going to somehow cut state aid to education and get better outcomes? No, Mike. Here is what we are going to do. When I am governor, the best day in my life is a day. I sign a bill that says very simply that if those abit districts cannot provide a quality education to every one of those students with the same money that is being spent in our suburban school districts, like everyone else, then they will be required to give a voucher to the parents of those children and let them go to the school of their choice in their school district areas. Just like Barack and Michelle Obama had the opportunity to do in Washington, D.C. less December. Steve, as you know, the governor is concerned about rising property taxes, particularly in this economic downturn and maybe particularly in his reelection year and has proposed allowing municipalities and county governments to defer half of their pension payments in 2009. Most Republicans are opposed to that, but that is going to really hurt the property taxpayer if municipalities and counties have to pay that entire tab this year.

Where do you stand on it? You know, Mike, as you know, I have an awful lot of experiences, 12 years as a mayor and dealing with these issues. That is one of the most reckless and irresponsible solutions, if you call that that has been put forward in a long time, we are still paying for the consequences of the early buyouts that were promoted in the early 90s. Towns are still paying for that. We have heard over and over again how the state's pension system has been shortchanged, how state employees who have earned that pension are at risk and now they are going to shortchanged it again. They are going to put it off till the future again. Well, if revenues are dropping, what are towns supposed to do this year other than high property taxes substantially? Well, the best thing we can do for every mayor and every council member in the state of New Jersey and every taxpayer is give back those individuals the ability to govern the way we need to do. That means the takeaway, all the unfunded state mandates that come down week after week. I don't think there was a week I didn't get another unfunded mandate, whether it's where

I would store the comic cleanser and white out to how many holes would be in the covers on our catch basins or how thick McCatum should be. These people in Trenton cannot come up with enough rules or regulations. The co-amandates of Governor Coruscine will also be driving up property taxes through the roof. And mayors, of course, the state will tell you they need the ability to negotiate contracts with their labor unions at a fair bargaining table. That means overturning binding arbitration and giving control to spending back to elected officials. John Coruscine does not understand this. He does not understand the role of local government. As I said earlier, he believes in big government. Where do you stand on homestead rebates? That is one of the most politically correct income redistribution schemes, vote buying plans at New Jersey's ever come out with both Republicans and Democrats, where we collect money from people and then we send them back their checks if they qualify and Trenton takes its

big, I mean, we need to cut the size of government and many of those cuts may seem difficult to people. But when we succeed in cutting the size of government, giving elected officials back their ability to govern effectively over the next eight years when I'm Governor, you'll see the changes in New Jersey and will return to New Jersey to the economic powerhouse it once was. I think we've been hearing you make the case against John Coruscine. How are you going to make the case against Chris Christie? You know, Mike, Chris Christie is a very successful attorney and done a terrific job on the issue of corruption and I applaud him for that. However, my background is in building and running a business in the state of New Jersey and in governing the state and in putting, and I will put forth answers to the state's problems that will be clear, that will be decisive. And ultimately, New Jersey does not need an attorney at the helm running the state. We need a businessman who has experience at running a business and understands how government

operates and running a town. And that will be the difference that will come out in doing this primary. Well, so many Republican leaders around the state, the county chairs, legislators, party elders seem to be rallying around this fresh, young, forceful exprasecutor. How do you deal with that? Well, the Republican party in New Jersey has sort of capitulated to the Democrat agenda. Their philosophy seems to be that we need to out-choresign, we need to be out-democrat the Democrats. We hear that message over and over again, New Jersey is a liberal state. We can't come out with good, solid messages. We can't shake up the status quo. I will be shaking up the status quo. I will be making a real difference. And that voters can understand and can relate to. And I'm going to have to lead the Republican Party by example. I'm going to have to take those party bosses and push them in the right direction. And you're going to see me doing that over the next four months.

Where do you think Christy stands on the political spectrum? Is he a moderate or Republican moderate? Well, it's hard to say because Mr. Christy has not come out with positions on the issues yet. I report so that he's having policy briefings and in February we'll start finding out where he stands on the important issues. So there have been no real statements to judge that by. So I really can't comment on that. Also running is Assemblyman Rick Merckett, who's thought of as a conservative like you. Two conservatives and one well-financed, well-known moderate sounds like it goes to the moderate. Wait, Mike, I've got to back up a minute. I've raised almost half a million dollars. I qualified for matching funds, which gives me well over a million on January 6th. And as that date, Mr. Christy has not raised a single penny. So I hope he's going to start now. My friend Rick Merckett, the fine gentleman, a great record in the Assembly. He'd be a great part of my administration because we share many of the same beliefs.

I'm looking forward to a primary, Mike, in the months to come that will define the future of the Republican Party, not just for New Jersey, but for the country. As Mike, I have to remind you, there's only two national races in America this year. That's New Jersey and Virginia and Virginia's kind of mellow. What we do in New Jersey in the months to come is going to set an example for the rest of the country. Is the Republican Party going to find, follow the conservative message of Ronald Reagan, of limited government, of low taxes? Are we going to follow the message of big government and more spending and more debt that is plagued New Jersey for the past two decades? Have you had the conversation with Rick Merckett that it doesn't make sense for the two of us to run one of us should yield to the other? No, I haven't. You anticipate making that phone call at some point? No, I hadn't thought about it. I think primary is an excellent way to encourage competition and ideas, so no, I hadn't thought about that.

This is the first time that the Dumanatorial candidates will run in a general election with a lieutenant governor, what kind of lieutenant governor would you seek to add to your ticket? I'll be looking for a good conservative lieutenant governor who shares the principles and values that the Republican Party platform, who will assist me in my agenda of cutting the size of government, of cutting taxes across this state and of bringing New Jersey back to economic prosperity. Who's willing to get out there and work hard, who get up in front of often angry crowds of perhaps a government worker union members or what have you in a whole line? Conventional wisdom says that a white male Dumanatorial candidate will select a female or a minority as a running mate. Would you look for a woman or a minority conservative? Mike, I'm going to look for the very best person. I don't judge people on the color of their skin, but but on the content of their character. It could be a woman, maybe it is a minority, but those are not criteria for me in making that decision. They have been and they never will be.

Steve, it's well known in political circles that you were arrested a year ago. Is that something you're proud of? Oh, you know, Mike, I don't know. It was so spontaneous and unexpected, and obviously if you read the press and what people think, a big mistake by the course on administration was an all-out attack on my first amendment rights. And it was quite a lesson for me, Mike, you know, I'm 52 years old. I've never been arrested before. So it was quite an experience. And I think it was, if you look at the history of Governor Corzine's toll-hike scheme, that was the day it began to plummet. That's the day it began to fall apart. So if I made that happen and I think I did, I'm very proud of that arrest. You alluded earlier in the interview to tolls and turnpike widening and parkway improvements. That toll-hike died, but a much smaller, much quieter toll-hike went through on December 1st, proposed technically by the turnpike authority and allowed to stand by the Governor. That funds and the very improvements you were endorsing, is that toll-hike acceptable

to you? Yeah, but Mike, I have, I, tolls are okay with me. I did not believe in eliminating tolls from the parkway in the turnpike as some advocates do, because I happened to believe in user fees. But that money is not being vested into those roads, the way it should be. Well, some of it is, and the rest of it is going to the arch-tunnel, which you already said you think is not the right funding source for. And that's the big mistake that we've siphoned all of this money from those tolls. Remember, they also took billions of dollars from the Transportation Trust Fund to fund the failed Trenton, Camden Light Rail, which was described by the New York Times as the biggest boondoggle since the Hindenburg. This, this tunnel into New York City is going to benefit New York far more than New Jersey. It's also going to benefit the New York labor unions far more than New Jersey's, because once that tunnel hits the border of New York and New Jersey, their unions will take over. And unfortunately, many of our union leadership on this side of the border in New Jersey think they're going to be getting all this work.

They're going to be very disappointed when they realize that the New York unions move in on all that labor. What do you think of another big project in your neck of the woods, or you're part of the state, Xanadu, at the metallands, another job creating project? Yeah, it looks as ugly as it is a bad project. The government needs to get out of the private sector. We need to cut taxes. We need to have free market economic growth. Mike, the greatest asset the state of New Jersey has is its people. And right now, the people of this state are being shackled by government by taxes. We know it. Everyone feels it. And we can no longer deny it. And government of course, I will not be addressing that issue. And I don't believe Chris Christie in this campaign, in this primary, will address that issue either. Somebody who knows state politics well said to me recently that for longing into win, the populace has to be angry. And although it's dejected and worried, it's not really angry. What do you make of that statement? You don't think these people getting slammed with these taxes every day are angry?

I think they are. I'm not sure exactly what that means. You need to have a candidate who will put forth a vision for the future of the state in New Jersey that's looking at things, a historic change for the state. Not just the status quo, Mike. Not more same of the same, but looking to make historic change that will turn New Jersey around. I am that candidate. I will be putting forth that vision and I will not back off on that message. If there are 70,000 state employees now, how many would there be at the end of a line of getting administration? A lot less, Mike. 60,000. Oh, gosh. I think at the most 60,000, I think we need to look at more like 50 to 55,000. I can't even answer that question as accurately as Mike, Mike, because it's very difficult to understand where all these people are working. I mean, you got to put into your head where are 55 or 60 or 70,000 people possibly working? And what are they doing?

Well, on that large question, which I don't have the answer to, Steve, we're out of time. Thanks very much for being our guest this week. Mike, thank you very much. I always like being with you. On next week's edition of On the Record, we hope to have Adrian Sapino here with a full report on the Obama inauguration from a New Jersey perspective. She and I and a cameraman will be in Washington Tuesday. For more on New Jersey politics and government, you can catch reporters round table Sunday mornings at 10 and Friday nights at 6.30. And thanks for watching. Premier funding for On the Record is provided by PSENG, committed to serving customers strengthening the business community and investing in New Jersey's future. With major funding provided by the U.S. Green Building Council, advocates for energy efficient, environmentally responsible and healthy places to live, learn, and work all across New Jersey.

The Fuel Merchants Association of New Jersey and the National Oil Heat Research Alliance committed to saving energy and the environment, today's oil heat, intelligent warmth for your home. And by New Jersey's Union Masonry Industry, building New Jersey green and safe with New Jersey craftsmen and contractors, industry information at imiweb.org. All support provided by New Jersey Business Magazine, the magazine of the New Jersey Business and Industry Association. Reporting business news for more than 50 years, reaching over 27,000 businesses statewide. It's a four year program and it's college accredited. Let's grab our equipment and be careful out there. Wow, that looks great. When union carpenters and contractors work, New Jersey works. More about this valuable partnership is online at njcct.org. Nobody said, oh yeah, New Jersey is a great place.

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