Report from Santa Fe; Jane Goodall

Music Report from Santa Fe is made possible in part by a grant from New Mexico Tech on the Frontier of Science and Engineering Education. For bachelor's, master's, and PhD degrees, New Mexico Tech is the college you've been looking for, 1 -800 -428 -TECH. And by a grant from the Healy Foundation, Taos, New Mexico. I'm Lorraine Mills and welcome to report from Santa Fe. Today we are honored to have Dr. Jane Goodall with us. Thank you for joining us. Well, thank you for inviting me. Well, I can't tell you what a privilege it is. You're an author, humanitarian, the most well -known pre -metologist. But you've come to Santa Fe to work with some children with roots and shoots. And so I want to take a moment to give a little more of your background because you're a day in the British Empire, the French Legion of Honor, Kofi Anan and the United Nations have made you a messenger of peace. And you've come as a messenger of peace to work with these children with roots and shoots. Can you tell us about roots and shoots and how

it came about? It came about in 1991 with some high school students on my veranda in Doris, Salaman, Tanzania. And I was feeling at that time very concerned about youth because I was already traveling around the world by then. And everywhere I was meeting young people who seemed to have not much hope for the future. They were depressed, they were angry, they were violent. And when I talked to them, they all said more or less the same. We feel this way because we feel you've compromised our future and there's nothing we can do about it. We have compromised the future of our youth. There's no question I've got three grandchildren. I think how we've damaged this beautiful planet since I was their age and I feel a kind of desperation. But it's not true there's nothing we can do. And roots and shoots is all about hope. It's got a symbolic meaning that name. If you imagine a beautiful tree, it began to grow from a little seed. Tiny white roots, a little shoot. And the power of the life force

in that seed is such that those little roots to reach the water can work through rocks and knock them aside. That little shoot to reach the sunlight can work through cracks and a brick wall and eventually knock it down. And if we see all the harm that we've inflicted on this planet environmental, we all know about that. Social, the unequal distribution of wealth, the discrimination of violence, the domestic violence, the abuse going on and on and on. But this is hope. Hundreds and thousands of roots and shoots. Young people around the world can break through and can make this a better world for all living things. Well, I witnessed you speaking to an elementary school in Santa Fe. And I was so astonished at the projects. These are groups of children from many, many different schools, roots and shoots, kind of small clubs, groups. You have, you're in over 120 countries. There must be

over 8 ,000, 10 ,000 now, small groups of kids. It's somewhere between 10 and 15 ,000 active groups. And a group can be a whole school. Several schools are roots and shoot schools. And it's now from preschool. We have preschool groups and university groups and more and more adults are wanting to form groups. And every group tackles three projects. One to help people, one to help the environment, one to help animals. And it's also about breaking down the barriers that we build all the time between people of different cultures, religions, nations, and between us and the natural world. And you allow these groups, the kids themselves to choose their project. They choose. So in terms of the cultural and humanitarian projects, the ones I saw yesterday and you spoke with them all and the children themselves told you. But there was one, they were raising money for mosquito nets in Africa. Another group was gathering shoes to send a Kenya. Some of them were working for homeless kids here, getting books and games and helping them. And then the animal projects were also wonderful,

restoring beavers, working with goats, animal vaccination, helping old people walking dogs for old people. It was just so inspiring. And plants, reinforcing, planting trees, they even put on the lorax, that wonderful piece by Dr. Seuss. But these children were just full of incredible passion and they were aspiring to make the world a better place. And I think it's because in every group you find young people who love animals, some who love environments, some who are really dedicated to community service. So every child in a Roots and Shoots group or every young person can become involved in something they deeply care about. This is the thing and many young people tell me that after they join Roots and Shoots, they suddenly discovered where they're passionate. Because you know, it's all out there. What do you choose? There's so many needs everywhere. And they find they do

something to help people, something to help animals, something to help. This is what I want to do. I want to help dogs. I want to help clean streams. I want to go and make old people's lives better. They suddenly get the feeling. And at the end of your presentation, you asked this audience of hundreds of school children, can we save the world? And they resounding shout of yes. And you use as one of your symbols of hope, a condor feather. Yes. And so would you tell us what a condor feather means to you? Well, at one time, about 35 years ago, there were only 12 of these magnificent California condors remaining in the wild and one in captivity. That was it. That was it because of poisons, carcasses and lead shot and things of this sort. And a group of biologists decided they couldn't let these glorious masters of the air die. And so with much opposition, they caught those 12. They were told, you know, you can't catch them without killing them.

If you do, they won't breed in captivity. If they do breeding captivity, they won't be a releaseable into the wild. If they're releaseable into the wild, they won't breed. All of those things have been untrue. None of them die. They all bred really well. They have been released into the wild. They are breeding in the wild. And there's now over 200 of these glorious birds flying over the skies of four states. And that's just a wing feather. The wingspan is nine and a half feet. Can you imagine? Well, I want to move on because I have many of your books here we'll talk about, but your new book, Hope for Animals and their World. That was such an incredible inspirational journey because I met all the people who saved beings like the condor. Whether it's small insects or whether it's the giant panda, I met people on all the different continents. And, you know, there's such inspirational people. They illustrate this indomitable human spirit. But then the

projects that they've worked on illustrate the resilience of nature, given nature a chance, animal species on the brink can be restored. Places destroyed can be given a restored. The dedication is very poignant because you dedicated it to Martha, the last carrier pigeon. And to the Yangtze Dolphin, these extraordinary creatures that are no longer with us, and Ms. Walden's Columbus a bird. And you say, this will inspire us to fight harder to save our endangered species. And what you also have in the book that's wonderful, you have an appendix. And so, say you're smitten with one particular kind of animal. You have all the information there. How to contribute, how to participate. What you can do to change laws that might help them. And it's in terms of endangered plants, endangered species of animals and of habitat. So, it's really a how -to, it's so empowering. It's because people, you know, one of the reasons they do nothing is because they don't know what to do. So, if you

enable people to do something, even if it's a small something, maybe millions of people do the small something, it becomes a big something. And the one sad thing about this book is that they got too fat and too big in the publisher said you have to cut. So, three whole sections were cut out. One was the details of all the plants and the ecosystems. So, that's the next book. I'm already halfway through working with Gail Hudson. It's fascinating the stories about the plants. And then there was a whole new book that will come out of the other part left out, which is about what ordinary people are doing to help. Just people just use the roots and shoots information that's going to be another book. Well, you have a whole arc of hope in your work. I want to show one of my favorite books I've ever read. The reason for hope, your spiritual autobiography. Just wonderful. And after that, some time after that, harvest for hope, a guy to mindful eating. And

you said this was one of the hardest that you had to write. It was tough because I didn't want to learn what people are doing to our food. I didn't want to learn all the details of intensive farming. I didn't want to learn the extent to which we're draining the aquafers from, you know, ridiculous kind of irrigation in areas which weren't meant to grow a lot of food. And so, they're gradually being destroyed and all the wildlife is going terribly sadly. You know, the extent of the chemical pesticides and fertilizers. It's unbelievable. And I don't know what's wrong with people. There was a huge, in UK about two years ago, the government banned the use of a certain pesticide that gives cancer. So all the farmers said they were going on strike because they realized it gave cancer. But if they didn't use it, they couldn't grow enough food to feed people. So what is wrong? Well, I'm going to go back to Mad Cow. You know, if you're, you know, saving money by feeding ground up cows to cows and these prions I transmitted,

then everyone loses. It was just horrible. The whole industry lost terribly. But at least when they started doing that, they didn't realize people were going to do it. Whereas these farmers knew they said, yes, it will give people cancer. But we've got to use it to grow the food. So you grow food to give people cancer great. We're celebrating also this year the 50th anniversary of your arrival in Gombe. So out of that came an earth shaking. Actually, this changed the course of Western science. Your book in the shadow of man based on all of your discoveries working with the chimpanzees in Gombe. And I just, since we have to show a chimpanzee, this book came out in 1967. And it was one of your first books about showing your work with the chimpanzees. You chronicle all the discoveries that you, that they were meat eaters that they could be very warlike. And tell me about when you discovered AWE. Well, you know, the

wonder and awe that we feel in some beautiful natural phenomena, they seem to show wonder and awe when they approach a waterfall with the thundering water and the breeze that's created with the water drops down through a channel worn in the rock. And they do these, these rhythmic displays weighing from foot to foot and hurting big rocks and then climbing up the vines and pushing out into the spray. And sometimes you can watch them at the end sitting and you see the eyes following the water. And you have to ask yourself, if they could speak, if they could, you know, that emotion, wonder or whatever it is, is trapped within them. And they can't share it except by doing a demonstration which others may then do, but they can't then sit down and say, what is this? What are we feeling? What does it mean? And if they could, might not lead to a primitive, animistic religion, you know, the worship of water, sun,

moon and so forth. Well, maybe it will at some point. Well, I think the big difference is the development of our intellect, which dwarfs that of even the most intelligent chimpanzee. And I believe that's come because we have this power to communicate with our spoken or written or electronic language. And that's what I think differentiates us most. Well, your book in the Shadow of Man was so transformative because you actually observed the chimpanzees' power to make and use tools. And before man had the monopoly, we were the tool making animal. And it was really thunderous, the effect of your work. It actually was, Lewis Leakey said, because we were defined as man, the tool maker back then. Lewis Leakey said, well, we should now have to redefine tool, redefine man or accept chimpanzees as humans. And of course, over the 50

years, looking back, perhaps the most striking thing is how like us they are in so many ways, there isn't a sharp line dividing us from the rest of the animal kingdom. And it gives us a new respect, not only of chimpanzees, but the other amazing animals with whom we share or should share this planet. Well, of course, it made people consider the evolution of man and creationism, all that basic conflict. But at one point, and I don't want to quote you incorrectly, but you said, it's really not as important where man came from. But what's really important is where are we going? Well, basically, you know, I get asked questions about evolution versus creationism and so forth. And I don't want to get into some kind of controversy about religion at the end of my lecture. So it's basically, yeah, maybe, you know, if you want to believe we were created from Adam's rib or something like that, it doesn't matter. What does matter is joining together around the world

to try and get out of the mess that we've made. We've made such a terrible mess at this planet. And how is it that arguably the most intellectual creature that's ever walked on planet Earth is destroying its only home, because we are destroying our only home. Your Wilson said, if everybody on the planet has the same standard of living as an average American, we need three new planets. Some people say five to provide the non -renewable natural resources, but we don't even have one new planet. So have we lost wisdom? The wisdom used by the indigenous people when they made a major decision based on, how does this affect our people in the future? And now we're making it based on how does it affect me now, the next shareholder's meeting, or my next political campaign. So is there a disconnect between this clever, clever brain and the human heart, a seat of love and compassion? And if so, how do we join them up again? Well, you're allowing children to experience the interconnectedness of life.

And as you put in hope for animals in their world, that man has to find his place again in the interconnectedness of nature. And who knows what, if you just serve one strand of the web of life, what the long -term effect will be? This isn't it. We don't know. We simply don't know. Everything is so interrelated. And so this year, 2010, this United Nations year of biodiversity, and when people look at the endangered species, they say, well, what does that matter to me? How do you encourage people to realize that this little species, the frog in Panama, whatever it is, how it is all interconnected? I think you have to demonstrate that, first of all, scientists don't actually know the extent to which things relate to each other. But there are examples which aren't jumping into my mind now, but where there was something that happened in the sea, where a certain kind of plankton disappeared, and that led to the disappearance of

something else, which led to the disappearance of a kind of fish, which led to the collapse of the fishing industry. It's not quite like that, but these are the kind of things, and we can't always predict what's going to happen if one life form vanishes, because that may have been all important to another life form, which was in turn all important to something which we would say was more significant, because it affects us. Now, they're talking about the conservation of the sixth degree, whether it is that, that by the end of the century, we might lose 70 % of our plant species. That's what they're saying. And half a huge amount of animal species will look at what's happening with the polar bear now, and yet people just, how can we fix that? We can't make more eyes. I mean, it's just really, and it's so interconnected, and that's why the balance between fear and hope, we're afraid of what the worst

that can happen, but you give us so many reasons to hope, as a matter of fact, your biography, reasons to hope, you list several of the things that should give us reasons to hope, one of which is man's resourceful, wonderful mind, and one is the resilience of nature, and then the spirit of children. But what are the reasons to hope? Well, the indomitable human spirit, and I have to say that traveling 300 days a year, everywhere I go, there are groups of young people, you saw yesterday, you saw what they were doing, everywhere I go, it's like that. And young people, I mean, they're so excited to see Dr. Jane, that's why I have to keep traveling. And they want to tell me what they've been doing, or what they're going to do, and they're so filled with determination and energy, and we've got university students starting roots and roots groups in the primary schools, we've got, you know, it's spreading and spreading and spreading, all over the world, 120 countries.

Oh, one of the things that the Jane Goodall Institute has done, if you wanted to preserve the chimpanzees, and I'd love to have you tell me what's happening at Gumby now, but you realize that not only these animals need to be protected with the people around them need help. And you instituted something, take care. Yeah, when I flew over the whole area where Gumby's a tiny national park of 30 square miles on the east shore of Lake Tanganika, and when I arrived, chim habitat all the way up this 300 mile long lake. And when I flew over, the little tiny island of Gumby was forest, but outside just about all the trees had gone. I mean, I knew there was deforestation, I had no idea how extreme it was. How could we even try to save those famous chimpanzees, and the people were struggling to survive? The land was trying to support more people than it could, they were too poor to buy food from elsewhere. And so that led to take care, which is a very holistic program to try and improve the

lives of the people in the surrounding villages. And it began with 12 villagers, we're now in 42, so it's an entire landscape. And because we were helping with women's and children's health, with water projects, with sanitation, with ways of reclaiming overused farmland. And wood stoves that they didn't need to decimate the forest? The most important microcredit, so that groups of women could take out tiny loans for environmentally sustainable projects, scholarships to keep girls in school. Because all around the world it's shown that as women's education increases, family size drops. And it was the size of families that were leading to this explosion of the human population, which is the underlying all the problems that we face on the planet today. It's, you know, exacerbating poverty. And we may think, how well in the Western world we don't have these huge families, that's fine. It's not fine because our children, one child, will use the natural resources of maybe 10

African children living in a rural area. So, you know, if we have more than two children knowing what the long term effect may be, it's as bad as the African family of 10 or 12. You were in Copenhagen for the Climate Change Conference. And when I read about this project called Red, I was thrilled because I didn't know anyone else who was doing this. Tell us what Red is, R -E -D -D, and what you're doing. Well, it's a program that's being really pushed by the Norwegian government. And what Red means is reduction in emissions, that's CO2 emissions, from deforestation and forest degradation. So, basically, if you have a African government with a whole lot of forest in the country, they can get money by selling forest concessions for timber. And that means it's gone. And this means that CO2 is released into the atmosphere, which is increasing climate change.

So, the idea here is that you pay people not to cut their trees down. That means that people who are emitting more CO2 than they should, can at least for the moment pay for that by paying to keep the equivalent amount of CO2 in the ground. It's not a long -term solution. But anything, for now, to help save the forests where chimpanzees, gorillas, elephants, all these other amazing animals live. So, they've given us a huge grant in Tanzania, which is related to our take care program. And we are now using that money to prepare the villagers to monitor their own efforts to save and restore their own forests. And we're working very closely with ESRI, and it's a very exciting project. It really is. I didn't hear enough of it coming out of Copenhagen, but there was so much else going on. Well, most of Copenhagen was a disaster,

and I think most people believed that the effort to save the rainforest was perhaps one of the most significant things to come out of it. One of the good things to come out of it. Sometimes you talk to people about the simple everyday things that they can do. So, tell us a little. People can buy your new book, and they can realize what they can contribute, but just in everyday life, because you've even pointed out to spread some positivity and appreciation of the life forms around us. I'm that Moses in the right direction too. Well, I think when people say, what can I do? People do nothing, because if they think about all the problems, they are huge, and you feel utterly helpless. But I say to them, well, if we were just to think about the consequences of the small choices we make, what do we eat? How did that affect the environment where a pesticides used? Did

we damage the water table? Did it lead to cruelty to animals? You know, all these things. What are we wearing? How far has it come? Did it waste a lot of transport? Did it involve child slave labor or sweatshops? If we start thinking about how we get from A to B, and the difference it is, if we use a car with one person, then using a bicycle, back these little things. And it may seem not much, but if millions of people are making these same choices and trying to live a life that is less damaging to the environment, to society, that's going to mount up and lead to the kind of change we must have. If we care about the future, if we have this wisdom, and you know, there's a saying, I hear it all the time, it drives me nuts. We haven't inherited this planet from our parents. We've borrowed it from our children. When you borrow, you plan to pay back. We've been stealing, stealing, stealing. And it's time we start paying back. And some of the children actually have rubbed their eyes and looked around and say, hey,

wait a minute. I can't swim anywhere. The water is all polluted. And will there be elephants for my own children to look at? So it is very challenging. Your lifestyle, you spend maybe 300 days a year on the road traveling. You spend a little bit of time in Gombi? Twice a year I get to Gombi. Is that your haven? That's a haven. Going back to where I was young and the whole research stretched ahead of me and everything I saw was exciting. I can recapture that feeling. But I can get this spiritual recharge in any wild place. It just fills my spirit with energy. And people are always saying, how are you so calm in the face of all that's going on? And you once said that I carry the piece of the force within me and you certainly do. Well, you are a messenger of peace and I want to thank you for taking the time to be with us today. Thank you. Our guest today is Dr. Jane Goodall. I want to just suggest everyone get this book. Hope for animals

in their world. It's really inspiring. It's very positive. It gives us hope. So thank you very much Dr. Goodall. Thank you. And I'd like to thank your audience for being with us today on report from Santa Fe. We'll see you next week. Past archival programs of report from Santa Fe are available at the website report from Santa Fe dot com. If you have questions or comments, please email info at report from Santa Fe dot com. Report from Santa Fe is made possible in part by a grant from New Mexico Tech on the frontier of science and engineering education for

bachelor's, master's and PhD degrees. New Mexico Tech is the college you've been looking for 1 -800 -428 -TECH. And by a grant from the Healey Foundation, Taos, New Mexico. Thank you.