Voter's Pipeline; Transportation and Housing for the Disabled

Four million California residents have to face more problems than most of us in order to enjoy the good things of life. That's the total number of physically handicapped people now living in the state. They have to confront many problems that most of us never think about. We will look at two of these problems on this channel 50 public television special today. Those problems are transportation and housing as they affect the disabled. And now here's your host Jim Cooper on location. Of the annual convention of the California Association of physically handicapped. It focuses on the anxieties and concerns of the 4 million handicapped people in the state of California. All the problems of the handicapped are greatly magnified by the fact that they are largely on fixed income and are now confronted by a 20 percent national rate of inflation the worst in the history of the United States. Two of the problems being discussed here are transportation and housing for handicapped people. Gasoline is expected to be $2 per gallon soon and bus fares continue to go up. New houses in Orange County now cost one hundred thirty four thousand dollars. Used houses average

$130000 sale prices and rents for two bedroom apartments now average $455 a month against these painful statistics. The truth that handicapped people must somehow find transportation and housing to enjoy even a moderately decent quality of life will be examining transportation and housing as they affect the handicapped people today handicapped citizens have not relied on governmental agencies to do their battling for them. What they want are the simple opportunities to live and to work that are available to all Americans their own organizations have been untiring advocates for those objectives. I talked with some of those volunteers who put in thousands of hours without pay each year working for the changes they feel are needed in Baghdad of Costa Mesa is chairman of the Transportation Committee for the California Association of physically handicapped. She's been a resident of Orange County for 20 years. What's the biggest thing you would like to say to people regarding transportation as it affects handicapped

people. I feel that transportation is vital to our living lives just as everyone else does. We have the same needs as people all over the world. We want to take us there. We want to go to the cleaners to the theater to the grocery store. We want to do it well not when someone decides that it's not right for us to do it. You filed a lawsuit both in the state and federal courts asking for fixed groud accessibility for handicapped people. That's just what were you saying and what's happening about it. Well this is one of the six states it has been settled. Keep services purchased by the Orange County chance to stay will be excessive. I mean with the left wing on the left that will be out in front of Dr. Levin because General Motors is getting low as bad as we feel is self-defeating. We'd like to see that all a

fixed route. That's right. What about those who say that you already have Diala left and that that therefore takes care of the problem. Well we have 30000 people that are severely handicapped that we're required to have possibly years to fix down boss and need to get to the doctor or wherever. You know that sort of thing. They are people that are raising families at least to the degree that they are free to go about their lives that way. Those of us that are leading independent lives need to be on the front line. Sell as much as possible. So you're saying that in addition to dial left we still need to figure out that it's a must. Some that were being urged by the Board of Supervisors to get those spots all the time so use the public transportation because of the oil shortage. It's impossible to understand that other than I feel it's

discrimination that we're. Being shown this year on many transportation improvements for the disabled. One of these is equal accessibility and public transportation. Although federal law clearly requires such accessibility and public transportation. Most transit systems do not meet the required standards. This volunteer is testing out one of the newest public buses with a front door lift. It has a platform which extends out and lifts the wheelchair onto the bus. The Orange County Transit District presently operates 20 small Diala lift buses. But is expected to receive 175 fixed route buses equipped with back door lifts in July. Lola Mattingly of Long Beach is chairman of the Housing Committee for the California Association of the physically handicapped. What would you like to say about this terrible problem of housing availability as regards to handicapped people the terrible need they have for you know for housing everybody doesn't cost too terribly. This

disable are particularly affected by them because many homes even if they can afford them. How about. What would you like to say to people who have rental properties that might be thinking about running into handicapped people or maybe they have a prejudice about it. Like you say to those people we would really like to encourage property owners to think about running their property because people are irresponsible. Very often people have a misconception that handicapped people make better renters. Yes I do. They're much more stable. They find a good place to stay there. What about housing accessibility the whole problem of whether rental property or a house is accessible for a handicapped person for example someone who might be in a wheelchair. That's really a very serious problem. A person who is handicap needs a level entrance or the front door in a wheelchair cannot go up

and let people walk and certainly they can't go them. Many of those back doors are not wide enough to allow wheelchair to go through or even a person walking on. That legislation would you like to see. Do you address that problem for construction of new housing. Well for the past three years our association has worked very hard to try to get a bill through the state legislature which would require that all new housing be accessible in a minimal way. Holland for Sacramento was architectural barriers chairperson for the California Association of the physically handicapped and disabled herself for 13 years because of a spinal cord injury. And she's the mother of two children. What philosophically would you like to say about the problems of both transportation and housing as they affect handicapped people.

We're facing a lot of opposition right now to making housing accessible and to making transportation sensible. I think it stems. From the fact. That we are facing a lot of pressure as a nation right now with the energy crisis and with Proposition 9 The problem isn't taken over inflation. I think basically it reveals a basic traditional attitude that you can even call prejudicial to people with disabilities and that attitude is that people with disabilities do not belong in the mainstream. We should go back to bed. Get out of the way. You know that's what we're asking the public and our officials to do is actually broaden the concept of what a human being as. A human being is not more of a man. Revlon woman but a human being comes in many different conditions. We don't want to admit that. And in that case what we're doing is attacking a basic way that we perceive ourselves as human go with this.

This problem you're describing what you call it indifference or would you even call it hostility now on the part of officialdom and it's becoming more and more hostile as is the crunch for Dalia's rises. They do not want to spend money on it to say that they see it is putting money in a vacuum and not getting any benefits. And the reason they say that was because traditionally we've never been in the mainstream. So we don't have any data to draw from to say look we can prove to you that if you can get us off the welfare rolls and if we can get out of the institutions it's going to be how the benefits to society. We don't have any data to bring that to you in it where we just have to believe that you think of the care of children. Is it a terrible waste of human resources when we want this kind of a resource to be a good example of an individual living in an institution today cost the taxpayer anywhere from 3000 to 4000 dollars a month by the time you pay for facilities and all that stuff. Individual living and his own hang

is on attendance his system or her live independently managing her own or his own resources. Twelve hundred what the two biggest things that you'd like to see done right away would tackle the problem of transportation and to attack the public housing. What do you think would you like to see. We would like to get off the final four legs there. They're saying the public transportation about it. They're totally resisting like the federal government is trying to do mass transportation accessible. And I'd like to see me I mean is that what you're talking about. I would like to see that all mass transportation is accessible to media. OK. Now what about housing. You see them right away. Housing we'd like to see adaptability concept adopted and that is our compromise for making our housing accessible we're saying don't make it accessible and make it adoptable adaptable. Put a few more sticks of wood on the wall so we can attach I grab bars to it for less than maybe 1 percent or so because my style is just Clannad folks

transfer for your own disability and is that going to be swept under the rug or is it going to be done. I hope this can be done. With me today are three special guests who will start our discussion with the first part dealing with transportation for the disabled. Later we'll have two other guests who will talk about housing. Hugh Marsh's community resource specialist at the Independent Living resource center in Santa Barbara for the two years prior to this he was communications chief for the California Department of Rehabilitation. He's a member of the Board of Governors of the California Association of the physically handicapped. He's been disabled since childhood from polio. Brenda Primo is the director of the Dale McIntosh Center for the disabled. She also serves as chairperson of the Orange County Human Relations ad hoc committee for the 1981 International Year of the disabled person. She is also president of the Orange County chapter of the California Association of the physically handicapped. Al Holland is program manager for the Institute of Transportation Studies at the University of California at Irvine. He's also chairman of the Orange County Transportation Commission and a board member of the Orange County Transit

District. In the corner of your screen you're seeing Paul Culson who will act as interpreter for the hearing impaired in this program. He is the director of the disabled students program at the Golden was college in Huntington Beach and has been a consultant in establishing post-secondary programs for the deaf throughout California. And I should tell our viewers he's a very fine man and helps in the life of many people who are in one way or another handicapped. Well let's talk a little bit first about picking up from what we have just seen here in transportation and I think we might start out by asking you to define what is the county's purview of this problem. Transportation affects handicapped particularly in the buses. Historically our transit board by a split vote I might add has opposed the accessibility concept on the fixed route buses. And we did this based on the information we received from many other transit districts throughout the state and through the country. How far back do they go Al. Oh I couldn't say exactly. I know that up until 1975

74 the major claim was you couldn't find a lift that really worked. However in 1976 we started the dive program and we felt this was was a. Better program and we continue to build on that particular program. We just raised that to twenty eight vehicles. This this particular year and last year we transported 50000 people. Now we lost the lawsuit. We are receiving at the present time some of the buses are here. Now the General Motors buses and we're getting 175 accessible buses on this order. And we have another 100 or so coming in next year. And by September 1980 one we will have 50 percent of our total fleet accessible. And even though we were the ones that were resisting and we were sued it'll turn up will be probably the first transit district in the country to be fully accessible. You say you were sued. Could you just summarize that

lawsuit very quickly for us. Well the federal regulations required that buses be fully acceptable. Our position was that we were offering an equivalent service with with Diala lift the the courts both the state law and the federal law have ruled that dive lift are not adequate. So now we are going with a combination of the two system. I think that's very important that we stay out of all of the buses with our 400 there'll be 477 buses total that 175 of those are about 37 percent will have fixed bus accessibility and that's 37 percent better than we were before. As far as a fixed route that's correct Now let's make it very clear that the 28 Diala lift buses that you have. Well they continue to function on top of the buses that are already here and they will probably change format a little. We intend to continue to operate you're not going to them either. No it's not our intention at this time. We may change the mode

somewhat so that they will serve as feeders and distribution OK to the to the accessible fixed route buses to try to integrate the whole thing into a total system. Last year this time Brenda we were talking on the same program about the. Employment needs of handicapped. And when we chatted about this program you expressed to us the thought that transportation and housing are certainly two of the other very serious needs of handicapped and disabled people. You want to pick up on that Brenda. That's correct. We were talking about employment and as you and I have last year last year as you and I were discussing without the other services that everyone in the community wants housing transportation no one will succeed in employment because all of our lives are not segregated out. They have to be a total function and transportation is one of the essential things that we move as the federal people not just the politically disabled people but blind people and deaf people as well. For

example when I was in high school I being legally blind there wasn't a chance I would have to walk or obtain a ride anywhere that I went. I was literally walking three or four miles. Now it might have helped my weight but I couldn't go too far. And since my graduation in 70 the bus routes are becoming so usable that even I would say by 83 or 84 as an administrator I will be able to go from place to place without spending half of my day on the bus. And it has made me employable. It made it possible for me to have my first job for the physically disabled. It becomes a more difficult problem and just as there are a dial arrives and fixed route for the general population. We believe that Diala lift serves the purposes of Diala right in the sense for the physically disabled. We also feel that as people grow older and our population is growing older in a as a country that more and more people will need adaptive equipment they might not all be in wheelchairs but they'll have

walking problems due to arthritis. The problems that you get as you get older and senior senior citizens who need to use walkers or canes and these steps currently on the buses are very difficult to negotiate. So we feel that this not only helps those who are severely disabled right now but we'll be helping increasingly large numbers of people as they grow older. I won't ask you for a subjective reflection on this whole problem we heard Eileen fuller say that in some cases there was even some hostility about many of these problems or they were met either with indifference or they were met with hostility in your own perspective here in Orange County. You feel that the attitude the official attitude the supervisors the County Transportation Commission officialdom is looking at this with more shall we say sympathetic attitude. I would say empathetic the disabled and you are not looking for sympathy they're looking for an understanding and we believe that

maybe the apathy or that the hostility was due to lack of education. We stand behind this is that use that phase of this problem behind us. I believe the lack of education is a big part of it. For example if we tend to go to the experts if we have a problem medically we go to a doctor we don't go to a mechanic for years and years people are going to quote the experts people with degrees on disability forgetting that the experts were the people who lived there the people who were disabled. Now we're going to the court experts those who are disabled and saying What are your needs. What contributions can you make and what is needed to help you be participating and I think that's helped change the attitude now in transportation. But in other areas in the county a sit down exchange. The problem is not just what somebody who is able bodied thinks will happen. But with somebody in a wheelchair says. Prime example would be modification of a particular facility somebody who's not in a wheelchair so it was just going to cost $40000 because we got to go the spec somebody in the

wheelchair who has had the experience and training can walk in and say hey no she lower that bar we widen that door a little bit and you leave a little more open space which will cost you $2000. You can do it. So the difference in the education of using the person who's in the chair or the legally blind person painting steps versus putting hundreds of dollars in the lighting. It depends on what the disability is going to the person who has it to find out what they need. Hugh what about that. What is your perspective you had a state vision having been with the State Department rehabilitation. You've had a state perspective on this problem. Are we way behind on dealing with this business of transportation. Are we badly behind or we catch up. Well we've been pretty badly behind Jim and but I think we are catching up because of one of the things that Brenda was just saying now is that he is expressing it in his own thinking his own experience right here in Orange County that is that transportation. Is. Really the center Wynona of other participation

by people with disabilities in all of society. And unless there is accessible public transportation just as there would be for everybody else. All of these other goodies the rest of society is not open to us. So. Attitudes are changing. We're finding that it is improving. Now we run into the cost crunch. This is where you get to oh yeah that would be a nice thing to do. Really need accessible transportation. We agree with you on that. But it's going to cost a lot. It doesn't matter of it is going to cost a lot but. It isn't just a cost issue. It isn't a huge issue. It's an attitude issue it's a civil rights issue. In this particular case it's very analogous to. You know to the blacks problem where they had to ride on the back of the bus back in the 50s and early 60s and you could get out on the bus you know so we're just trying to get on the bus back or front door or whatever have you have you will be riding on the back of the bus to in your own handicap. Yes.

It's been since childhood but we're reporting to that point. Have you written buses. Any time I had occasion my brother thinking that I think I was carried down to a school bus once back in high school. Well how did you get to this school how did you get to work every day for example in your state or do you have your own transportation. Well by the time I was old enough to go to work. Then I had my own car with a hand control. Which is a transportation modification that we've been doing for a long time. And but I don't think of it I don't think I've ridden on a bus since then. Now I would be delighted to work on building the to on a bus where I live in Santa Barbara right at the moment. I could very easily ride downtown it's about a 11 mile ride and I would be much. How would you do that. Do you have buses. We do have buses. They're not accessible. I happen to be on the local transition committee and we're not making rapid progress if we are in Orange County maybe because we lost up there too.

I'm wondering Allison maybe they put you on the spot a bit but had there not been a lawsuit would we be where we are now or do you think the lawsuit accelerated the lawsuit accelerated a great deal. Yes. What about the attitude of the Transportation Commission and the transit district tell us about let's say the attitude is and I'm summing it up for everybody. I'm sure they'd all agree with me. Hey we've got them let's make them work. And that's my job. And I think that we can we can make this work a great deal. We've had one advantage of having had the Diala lift as we know to an extraordinary degree where people are trying to get to and from where they are they're leaving. And we have all these trip patterns we've kept all this data and using that as a starting base. And what Brenda said earlier our committee our committee is composed of 50 handicapped people that we rent a great deal of trouble trying to round up from all parts of the county from all sorts of organizations. They are just helping select the routes the style the mode in which we can

integrate these buses into the system and that maybe get down to what Brent is saying is ask the experts the experts being the people who need it who live there. Is that right Brenda. There's something very important that needs to be done in any area dealing with well any area of it dealing with the disabled. Many times the person will say OK we're going to get the equipment to solve the problem we've had this happen with teletypes of the deaths we've had this happen with transportation. But the programatic training and education at the staff and of the individual the disabled individuals is not done. So what happens is is the program will fail and I'll say See I told you it's going to fail. But there was no pre-planning of the training of the drivers the training of the personnel and the switchboards the training of the disabled about the do's and don'ts. The simple things about where do you want the chair to be when the bus arrives so you can get on the lift to make it quick. The publicity all the things that are going to make a program work have to be put together as a program and not here is transportation and here's the buses. Now why isn't it working. No one knows about it. The total program must

be planned and it must be planned in the coordination of all the experts the disabled about the disability PR people planning people financial people so that when the program comes out it will be a success. And I think in Orange County I have to say that I am given a hard time throughout the state because they say how come Orange County your conservative county has an IP that's one of the best it's got an eye for the independent living program the Del McIntosh center. How come your conservative board of supervisors is having a big transportation. And my answer back is just because we go with a program we don't just say buy a teletype machine or buy a lift. We say look at the tunnel program and computer people have a way of talking about that. They call it that they're getting the hardware and getting the software right. I think what you're saying is it's not enough just to get fancy hardware busses to come up with it. It's developing the software program that goes with it and how we're going to make this thing work what the program is the subject of a program that's going to reach people and

equipment is I'd say 25 percent of the problem. The other 75 is attitudinal and permanent program education in terms of not only the non-disabled community but the disabled community. I like talk about cloud. And you recorded in the Los Angeles Times article. Brenda. Are you talking about the general problems of the handicapped and this article says the law. Meaning. Meaning that law in regards to handicapped and disabled. The law is on their side in their efforts to go to theaters across intersections ride buses and particularly participate rather in other normal pursuits. But enforcing the law is another matter. They generally find the public sympathetic to their needs but this does not mean that they're reserved parking stalls will not be illegally preempted unlike members of any minority group if they are of course too hard they provoke a backlash. What about that. Are you are you creating backlash with officialdom in this case the transit district the Transportation Commission. The board of supervisors about that. I think I can respond partially by saying I was at a fundraiser last night and

supervisor Clark came up and said Brenda you haven't been to the Board of Supervisors lately it's been at least two weeks. They're going to miss you. They know me by sight but I think no. In this case with the public officials we have taken an education approach we have taken on let's work together approach. I must say that in terms of the lawsuit my concept with the board and with the cities is you can work with me now in a cooperative way and save money or you can work with me later after you spent court costs. And most people want to work with me now. The other the other is you giving them a choice they can't Rehana an offer they can't refuse. The other concept is that many people say why should we pay our taxes for those people. And my comment is those people are taxpayers many many many disabled people and their families pay many taxes and that tax gasoline taxes they pay rental taxes you go to the store and you pay 6 percent and disabled people buy it. And the problem is is

that those people us who pay those taxes are not getting the same benefits for our tax. So in essence we're paying taxes for privileges and services to the nondisabled that were being denied and we point that out and people say well we didn't think of it that way. You know it really amounts to Jim to the fact that that that in some ways the general public isn't subsidizing us we're subsidizing them. Yes that's a good way to put it. Like do. I like that both you and Al. A question as to whether this county Orange County is better or worse than other counties or San Francisco County or L.A. County or San Diego County. Both of you from your vision of the entire 58 counties in California. Who are some of them are some of the good counties. Well circumstances make a great deal of difference if you're an old county with an old established central city with old facilities and a lot of old equipment it's a lot harder to comply. Now we're we're a relatively new.

County in terms of transportation our whole track transit fleets only since 1972. We're still growing over all of that. Therefore in a couple of years we can reach half of our fleet. It's literally impossible for some places to do this without a great deal of retrofitting and so forth. I don't want to act too small in the holy air of the circumstance circumstances you had to acquire the new equipment anyway we to acquire the new equipment anyway. And I think say Santa Clara County might be more comparable to us whereas I think Los Angeles County or. Maybe even San Francisco and some of those places have have difficulties that we didn't have so I don't want to sound too smug about it but would you say that we are at an Orange County or the Southern California area is it generally speaking ahead of the rest of the state. No question. All right. Other other areas I think I think you hit it at all the older Santa Barbara for example an old one of the older cities in California. I think some of the buses that were there at the beginning of it. But but people were taking an extra 10 years to get to that 50 percent because the law

allows that not because we want it that way but it's just going to take that long. If you've got a hundred and seventy five buses coming in this June and the second year in the year after that another hundred buses 275. Is that the end of it or are you going to go eventually to all of the whole system is fitted with these lifts for for handicapped people. I would say that there will never be a. Probably another bus purchased with out all. I always say that with great certainty I think that that's really the story of it so that the percentage of the fleet equip will continue to grow given Baghdad. We talked to on our on our videotape segment at the beginning of this program didn't like the idea of back buses on the back. I mean the lifts on the back of the buses but rather would like them on the front and yet Orange County is brought back buses. Is there any reason for that or do you want to comment on that. Well the General Motors only makes the rear door. But it is in federal compliance. There was a little bit or is that the they were the only bidder. There's only two

bus manufacturers in the United States today and in this particular case they were the only bidder. Is there any reason why that won't work or why. Well it can't work or do you think it will be a little less desirable than having them at the front door. It's close as we understand it. It slows the search throws turnaround time because of the fact that they are back below. But there's another point to be considered when we're discussing for access. Justice technology in terms of special devices for the disabled in society in general has progressed. Ten years ago they weren't talking calculators. They weren't devices. I think that as more people purchase and more modifications are made that perhaps the next hundred that I see TV orders maybe better best business with better technology and that having to wait 15 20 30 years down the line we will have busses that meet the needs of all the disabled. Those who do not need less but need lower floors. Those who need to have grab bars at a

certain level to get on. We're looking at multiple problems we're not just looking at buses and buses or just orthopedics to say yes we're looking at the problems of the Blind in terms of mobility the death in terms of communication and all of this has to do with access to transportation. Is there anything else we should talk about in this segment that would help someone perhaps in getting a car modified or perhaps airplane travel or perhaps train travel like Amtrak. Do either of those Jemmett we haven't had another program that was right about a long back. There are those are major areas of concern. They don't affect people locally as much. Oh yes they do. We have the orange county airport well located within the airport. What about the on the track stations which are rather dreadful in terms they need to be fixed up the Amtrak stations for accessibility and all very airport for the Orange County Airport is the most inaccessible airport in the state in for one of a very very small ones it is an old airport. It is. It's a problem for everybody. The one thing

about the Orange County Airport is it offers equal inconvenience. The only convenience everybody knows what they're talking about the supervisors are talking about a new airport you know a new facility new terminal facility I don't know how quick it will happen but certainly you will have an architectural input on that. Do you feel we will I'm certain that you will certainly have an architectural input on that new design of the new terminal. We have already pointed out that if that old dynamo any part of that terminal was touched under the law it will have to be made accessible to rebuild it. I mean to build a new one I knew it would have to be totally accessible and you know when we say accessible people think of wide doors but accessible also means that the readout material has to be at eye level so visually impaired people that there has to be markings for safety markings for the death for emergencies not just buzzers. So accessibility has a lot more to do with the total environment than just the physical access.

So yes we we definitely will have it and we're going to talk about another area of housing and we're going to move along in this. But it's good news at least that we will be we're well on our way to be a fully bus lifted shall we say. What's the what's the right word. Fully accessible bus system in Orange County with all 477 buses. Thank you very much Mr. Holland and for being with us on this transportation discussion. And thank you for the opportunity. I think we can say that you're listening to kind of the transportation that we're listening to music and oh yes we were we're listening and we're we're going to keep trying. All right. Thank you very much. Now we're going to address another critical problem to one kind of disabled people the need for housing. There are three distinct areas of concern to be related to housing. The first is the need for affordable rentals of houses and apartments. And the second is the need for moderately priced homes for sale and the third is the need for houses to be made accessible to the disabled. We have two special guests who will be joining with us to talk about these problems. Right now accessibility can mean simply a door

wide enough for a wheelchair or it can mean a ramp to roll up since steps become barriers for people in wheelchairs. Or it could be as simple as simple as grab bars for the restroom accessibility. And now talking with us about this. As Paula. We should start perhaps with Paula Margus and Paul Markson as the housing specialist at the Dale McIntosh Center for the disabled. She's an advisor to the housing coalition of Orange County and works on a daily basis with disabled people trying to locate affordable and accessible housing in the county. John Oliver probably is executive director of the Orange County Housing Authority. His past experiences include building contracting property appraisal and experience in the area of housing. He worked in formulating housing policies for the County Housing Authority in Orange County. I think it might be good for us to start with John and have you tell us what is the housing authorities. Policies as regards these housing questions for disabled people. Well the housing authority has just got into the business of.

Housing for the disabled Orange County as you might know has just waked up to the fact that it has a housing crisis. Formerly the housing authority. Oh about four or five years ago to deal with the problem. Specifically what we have now is a program called the state aftercare program for the disabled which is a rent subsidy program at this time it's only a year and a half old and it's only consist of 150 units. And what we do is we contract with private owners in the county. To. Rent a decent safe and sanitary housing for the disabled. The problem we've got is that just what you've been hearing and that is accessibility while we have a program and we may convince landlords to participate all their buildings do not meet accessibility standards and we don't have any money to give them to make the modifications. So that's a problem that we're dealing with on another basis to fill a special need the housing authority has

formulated its own program with a group of low and moderate income residents to formulate a home for autistic children. I think a lot of the primary problems we've got right now is the fact that we are unable to build new construction units for this population. So what we've done is through the Board of Supervisors sponsored County measures see on the June 3rd ballot which will permit the housing authority or other government entities to build this type of housing for the disabled and also for elderly or family in a lot of you allow you to build to be in the building business. That's correct. What do you call it again though that the city county measures seem OK. Anything else that you have that bears on this problem. Well these are the programs that we're involved in actively now we have done some other things such as assisting church groups to get federal funds to build this type of housing. But I think there has to be a change of the attitude at the federal government level

to make the programs more effective. And I think the primary problem is is that according to the federal government they love the elderly and the disabled into the same category and where you will build some new buildings of 100 units for elderly and you set aside 10 percent for the handicapped. The fact is that the handicapped people who may have to live there may not be elderly and the needs of the project may not be the same for them. What I think should happen is the two categories should be separated and the funding be different so that we can address specifically the needs of the handicapped. Can you tell us very simply how this works now assuming that you find a dwelling place that has accessibility for handicap or disabled. Who pays the rent or how much does the handicapped person pay and how much is the county pay. How does it work. Well what happens is the handicapped person is screened for eligibility. I have to make within certain income guidelines and the apartment must also rent within guidelines set by HUD. And what happens is

we arrange a meeting with the landlord we examine and inspect the property. Then the handicapped person pays 25 percent of their income toward the ranch whatever that rent is. And the federal government pays the difference. The handicapped. Person pay 25 percent of the rent. No 25 percent of their income or the rent towards the end to make up the difference. The difference is the rental was $400 and they made a hundred dollars. And to me that a 25 year or they may pay 350 Also depending on the income. Paula you live every day with this problem. It has a human side and I'm always interested in the human equation in this. What is it like to be. Handicapped and desperately in need of housing and waking up every day without it. Tell us about some of the problems that you. Confront everyday. Well I work with all disability groups Sunnites disability group has his own housing needs. I'm blind and for me it's vitally important to be near. Shopping and banking

and. Medical facilities so that I can. Use those facilities very quickly to be near public transportation. That's true of all disability groups. For the person who is mobility impaired. Accessibility is a prime concern as we've mentioned before. Most chairs are. 24 inches and went from most bathroom doors or 21 inches. So you've got a problem. More often than not I think the attitudinal barrier. That we work with. Is harder to overcome than the architectural barrier. It's fairly simple to knock out a wall are to build around but to change attitudes that have been formed over periods of generations. Is more difficult. So often I'll approach an apartment manager. On behalf of a disable client and. Part of manager will say well I just don't think a disabled person would be happy living here which really means interpreted I would not be happy with

a disabled person living there. I think the second interpretation is more. And so. One of the more vital parts of my job as I see it is to. Distill some of the misconceptions such as the what where you deal with the landlord or you deal with the property owner to build some of those misconceptions around you do that. What do you tell them the truth. For example what do you say to them. A lot of what is the crime cop out in wanting to disable people is right my property insurance will go up if I have a disabled resident tenant that is not true. Property Insurance is based on the value of the property. Obviously property insurance isn't changed every time a new set of tenants comes into the unit. But that's a convenient cop out and the manager will say well I'm not have to do more maintenance for a disabled person. There's several people who really value their independence and of course the Macintosh Center is an independent living program and our whole

philosophy is toward independent living for the disabled and so disabled people who have. Accomplished independence to the point that they're in a unit. Want to strive. You know to put forth a superhuman effort to kind of independence and to maintain that new image and their self-esteem. And so I think that. I. I say well give the person a chance and you may find that some of the things that you feel are really not so you might find a person even right. I always did. And I guess I would just say that I should ask you Brenda you did jump in on this if you have some observations that bear on exactly what we're talking about is attitudinal thing. I have with the attitudinal approach to housing let alone the had a really good team. I think that. We were just talking about transportation and how we're doing pretty well. Housing isn't quite so good I'd say it's even worse if we realize that recent well documented studies have shown that's virtually seven out

of 10 people. Everybody in society is going to need seven or seven of those we need. Accessible facilities some time in their lives permanently or temporarily. So we're talking to the majority. The problem is is to get to builders architects building officials I think primarily for example. The attitude that that not all housing should be accessible is one I think that we need to. We simply need to dispel. It's a dumb idea. I mean it's a dumb idea. I recently I know about a project for the elderly and handicapped that each is they say. Which is kind of another silly label because really we all have different labels on us like you and me and a few. But. Again five percent of the five or 10 percent of the apartments were made accessible that as the bathroom was a little bit larger for the NH for the handicapped person is now the age for the age of eight not know the rest. But you look at the rest of it would have taken very little very little more to make the rest of the

apartments accessible swinging the door bathroom door out I think was the only thing we're putting a sliding door in the bathroom and all of the bathrooms would be accessible. But no making them like this wheelchair of yours could you actually can you get in an average house with a wheelchair and a lot of houses I can't. A lot of houses I can't get into simply because the doors are too narrow and the how much how easy that would have been at the time of building to accomplish that. There at accessibly is built in at the time of design. It's less than 1 percent or some studies show it doesn't make any difference in the difference at all. The interesting thing is is that there's an assumption here that only the handicapped people physically handicapped people. Only. Talk to physically handicapped people. They do not visit the houses of able bodied people. They did not need to go to parties or social events or even business events at the home of an able bodied person. So therefore even if. We had you know 10 percent quote accessible housing where we're just segregating the physically disabled not by their intellectual cultural social needs but by the fact that they happened to roll

instead of walk. That's another funny aspect of the same thing. Only one bedroom apartments were made accessible because they felt. A disabled person were going to be living. So what about the two bedroom apartments why don't you make some of those access or is there a law they can get married or something. I don't know stream disabled people get pregnant to get them pregnant. Yes. All those things all they do things just like everyone else. John if you had that same kind of attitudinal problem to overcome you get a man that had the house say that he's willing to rent but is not at all adaptable is not even accessible. What about that. I think there's an attitude problem and also what was mentioned earlier in the show and that is the education. Ideating the home. Of the individual affected the homeowner or the landlord in this instance he does say well what about my insurance he's not sure. He's never had a disabled person. There's a little reticence sir. Yes. And I don't have I can't exactly say that it's a prejudice but it is a lack of knowledge for sure. What do you say to them what do you tell.

Well we just tell you statistics. Yes. Well we've got 150 units now and we have less problems with those units than any other units we have. And I do mean less problems you mean less turnover you are not paying their rent or. Well my experience has been that we have reduced maintenance. We have less turnover. But the economics are about the same. In our experience so we have a program that we just got some money for for redevelopment and remodeling of older buildings and there we would try and encourage the owners say just what you were talking about is just a few dollars more. We can put in the grab bars or at least get to do that. You can't give them money to do that. Well no but there are some tax incentives that he can use if he doesn't take them does it. And so we try and ham and egg the two together so we use our monies and he uses the tax break from the federal government and 150 units you say you have it right now. Yes that's right Paula do you have any figures sir. Maybe Brenda will you make even a guess at how

many are needed. Compared to the 150 lead to the housing. How do how is that one tenth of the iceberg. No. Not even 1 percent. What's the need. Currently. There are other two hundred thousand disabled adults in Orange County and most of those that doesn't even include children of which I have a blind daughter and most of those people are. On. Fixed incomes which makes them eligible for John's program. And yet there is not a supply to meet the demand by far. Dale Macintosh has probably 300000. Clients right now and out of that 300 probably 285 are interested in subsidy but none of them are eligible at this time because. The category that they fit into is closed. But even if they had the money. Paul I think that's what I'm trying to get at. How many how much of a need is there to use a 200000 handicap you have it. Does anyone have any estimate of how many of those are in need of decent. Accessible

housing. I think if you look at the county in general in terms of the cost of housing. Just look at every one because this affects everyone. So soon as you get your tax bill in your rent bill you will be late to the high cost of housing. Outrageous. When you add that to the fact that you didn't have to add to that accessibility. Now if you're able to buy a house say you have an income. And there are disabled people who do they don't need our center except for certain technical things then they not only have to buy the house paid a 15 percent interest that is currently happening the $900 a month same payments. Then they have to pay even if it is tax deductible someone to come in and make modifications. And in some cases we're talking about major modifications which may cost because the House is already built that may cost them an additional five six seven eight thousand dollars in addition to the already. If we're talking about low cost housing in Orange County 70 to 80 thousand or if they really buy a nice house $120000 or if they happen to make it move into the harbor. You know we could

talk millions of dollars in addition to that. They have to pay this extra cost. And the positive side I would say and I'm and Paula will add to this because she's coordinating it. There are some steps being done in the county. Again Orange County is doing a pilot that is one of the first in the state where the cities of Huntington Beach and coast to meet and using housing development aid Sudie. Have developed a survey and grant programs that are now in the early stages of development where the Dale McIntosh will survey. Our. Apartments for degree of accessibility starting with very accessible to not accessible at all and those that need minor modifications the owners will be approached and there will be a grant program or a loan program in a very low interest rate to encourage owners to make minor modifications. If this works we will go to Balance of county which will help the owner not penalize the owner who want any major modifications. I would make it easier for him to do the modifications and put his rentals on the market.

There are a lot of rentals John that are perfectly available for rent but simply cannot be offered because of this lack of access. Oh yeah. Well you can't say that there are a great number of rental units in the county at all because the vacancy factor is less than 1 percent. So I was you a number of them which would otherwise be available except they're not accessible. Oh yes yes. There's no doubt about that. What about the state purview on that. Well. You. Know. Similar problems throughout the state low you know the very low vacancy rate that seems to be an argument that's on their reasons. It's a real problem. So that everybody faces that but added to that to find an accessible and find an apartment at all or a house and find one that's accessible is increasingly difficult. I think that really what is key here is again the educational approach that we want to have not just accessible houses but houses new housing should be made so

that it can be easily adapted. What Holland Fuller was saying in the earlier saying adaptability as opposed to us as a giver it means that a house can be made easily accessible with a few adaptations should the owner or the resident we want to do it like we have to grab on to your family or someone in your own family gets older or. Or or comes out with an accident or disease and needs some accessibility then you can modify your house easily to do it. And that's what we should be doing. What about what about this business of. I guess empathy in the public. Are you doing anything to try and get people out. But maybe Paula could talk about what's being done to reach someone who is perhaps listening to this program who programs like this who may well be able goodwill and that's what I mean a property on our part an owner who is of goodwill who would like to do it that doesn't know what to do. What could be said of that person of goodwill who'd like to call for help. Well we're going to give that number in a little while we're going to get that number of Dale McIntosh out.

But what about that what would you like to say to someone Paula who might be listening right now who is. Perhaps a hesitant property owner. What would you say to that person. I would love to meet with them and discuss. What's involved in modification to maybe talk about a grant program or a low interest loan program and to. Talk about. Attitude changes and how I probably find that disabled tenants are. Really very good tenants. Would you say that. Someone else has a message that they of you are they going to think you. Were not scary. Among the best tenants you'll ever have. If you can you can find a good accessible apartment or home we're likely to keep it and we're likely to do the things that will guarantee we'll be able to keep it. So we'll be good tenants. The. Whole. Problem is simple accessibility. And then we can be treated just like anybody else should be. We all are in this life together folks of course Brenda.

Probably again going back to what one that said transportation that is as the population grows older is going to mean more and more disabled people. And. Chances are that if you grow to be old enough you'll be one of us. And you will need the conveniences that that disabled people need. But the other thing I would say is this Many of the modifications that are made for disabled people. Tend to help the public curb cuts as one example. I had a woman who didn't know what a curb cut was come up to me and say this is really wonderful because I can take my card up and down and I don't have to lift my child up and down. Another man who was a builder in the county built. Houses that he had a brother who was in a wheelchair and he built all of his houses to be usable wide doors Russian trees. The garage had doors right and the people didn't know they were accessible they just knew they could get their couch in there without turning it upside down and sideways. That's a good one I never thought of that. It helps the general.

Those houses sold and they had a little questionnaire that they sent out and said What are the positive things about these houses. And comments came back. I can move my furniture without breaking my back. I can get my groceries into the garage easier. Those modifications that were quote for the disabled were helping everyone in the general public to live easier and more convenient lives and I think many of the modifications are lower drinking fountains to help children. Have you ever been 3 foot tall trying to get a drink. Good point. Very good question. The modifications tend to help everyone. It doesn't just help the person with a disability. John what would you say to someone who may want to direct themselves to get some kind of a trust in this problem in which they can help you in the county housing authority to deal with it. Well I'll give you a little soapbox time I guess. Again if I had my soapbox. All of these folks I think would do a better job with the individual landlord. I'd like to use my soapbox would be with the coop I would say I would use it with the government agencies and say separate elderly and handicapped funds give us more money to help these people directly design the programs with their input that they can tell us what they need

and go ahead and build them rather than waiting for elderly allocations and trying to separate them. And I might be might be a bureaucratic nightmare trying to do that. Yes it's very hard. Even just getting any allocations of thunderstorms I can't I can't see that subtle differences. What is the difference if I am handicapped and elderly or if I'm handicapped and in a wheelchair or crippled or on crutches or blind or whatever what is the difference. I mean what why that subtle distinction that we see and do have to have in our. Legislative rulings has ever figured that out. You know John there's our number that you'd like to have people call if they want to offer an apartment to are you seeking from landlords that have decent safe and sanitary dwellings that are accessible. They should call 5 4 7 9 1 3 3 and ask to speak to the marketing representative. Do that again we all watch on television they are going to give a try to the number I live 4 7 9 1 3 3 1 3 3 and that's the kind of person you particularly would like

to have call would have to be a landlord and the landlord has units that need rehabilitation we have funds for that. Or if he's just looking to fill a vacancy we have lots of tenants waiting. OK. And lots of people who are certainly deserving of some help. You have anything that Paul that you'd say now on your last soapbox shot because you have a few seconds left. I want to give you if you like to say here I think the adaptability concept I'd put a plug in for that because it's before the state legislature and that means that disabled people can visit with their friends and relatives as well as being a benefit and a step in the right direction for the future some. Kind of support for that. OK. I'm going to give a number to have somebody called you also I hope I get a few phone calls. I want to thank all of our guests for being with us on this special program focusing on transportation and housing as the effect handicapped people. If you have any questions or you think that you can help in any way your phone call will be welcome. Simply phone the Dale McIntosh Center's 7 1

4 8 9 8 9 5 7 1. Area code 7 1 4 8 9 8 9 5 7 1. I'm Jim Cooper. Thanks for being with us. On