Jim Cooper's Orange County; The Flood Threat

March 1st 1983 and the place is humming can be it was just one of the Orange County communities which suffered serious flood losses for more than 50 million dollars. In this recent flood. Yet this destruction is minor compared to the devastation that would occur in a 200 year flood. That disaster would threaten the lives and homes of 2 million people. I'm Jim Cooper in today I look into the critical need for a long range flood control project for Orange County. The march first flooding in Huntington Beach illustrates the awesome power of uncontrolled floodwaters.

The Santa Ana River Basin contains the largest river system in Southern California. This area born San Bernardino and Riverside counties had been described by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineer. It is the worst flood hazard area in the United States. In a 200 year flood engineers predicted would cost nine billion dollars in property damage and two million people would be seriously endangered sandbagging or other makeshift flood defenses as shown here in the recent large floods in Orange County would have no effect against a standard project flood along the 75 mile long Santa Ana River Basin. This is the flooding which took place when Huntington Beach drainage canal gave way at Brookfield Manor damaging 234 homes with 15 million dollars in loss. But a major flood would bring this kind of devastation to almost all orange county cities because the present flood control facilities simply could not contain that much floodwater. There have been a number of ominous warnings of the damage which major floods can bring to Orange County

in 1038 when the county had a population of only 120000. This flood still caused four million dollars in damage. The 1969 flood was even worse although the county had only 1.4 million population. The devastation amounted to 85 million dollars. With two million people here now the risk to human lives from a major flood today would be much greater. The major plan to control such flooding here. Been in place for eight years. But the one billion dollar plan still hasn't been implemented. Orange County supervisors say the time for action is long overdue. And now let's meet our guests. Roger Stanton is chairman of the Orange County Board of Supervisors which has for years been pressing for passage of an authorization bill to implement the flood control project called the Santa Ana River main stand project where the all River plant with other supervisors had been in touch with Orange County congressman seeking some action on the plan. Dennis majors an engineer is the project manager on the Santa Ana River Project one of the largest

US Army Corps of Engineers projects in the nation. He's responsible for the physical planning and design supervision for the entire project which had been in place since 1975. Carl Nelson is the director of the public works for Orange County within the Environmental Management Agency. He disabled engineer and is in charge of flood control facilities roads harbors beaches and parks facilities. He's been involved with Orange County Flood Control issues for 15 years. Well gentlemen we've all gone through the flood of March 83 the 38 flood 169 flood and incidentally both of those floods were 40 year floods far less than what we're talking about in this kind of a flood. Do you have trouble trying to get people to believe that it really is a risk trying to make people aware of it let's start with you. Supervisor Stan Well I think one thing that when you and I talked earlier kind of hits the point very well and that is that as we move into the spring and into the summer when the sun shines you have a lot of difficulty convincing people

there's a problem however coming off of these very severe flooding conditions that we experienced in March. I think that it's going to be a lot easier to convince people we've got a lot of publicity a lot of media cooperation in accentuating this problem. So I think it's going to be less difficult to convince people that we have to act and we have to act very very soon. And more importantly I think Congress understands a problem now and they're ready to act. We have this need that's been around the planet been studied for 1000 years at the planet on the drawing board since 1975 and yet no action has happened. Right now we're coming at a time of economic constraints. We're asking for roughly a billion dollars. I mean what we I mean the three county area that are involved are asking for a billion dollars. How do you get over that problem of convincing Congress of this sizable amount of money had to be spent. How would you say about that. Well maybe I could put it this way Jim. When we do our analysis even though it has taken a considerable period of time we find that the

flood threat on the Santa Ana River and the benefits that would be derived by a flood project of this scale the benefits themselves would more than double the actual costs of the project in other words they derive benefits are far in excess of the cost. And I think if you can put that somewhat in perspective one can understand that it really is a strong need in terms of the total cost we talk a billion dollars more than we would have to understand is that the project itself. Even though it is a billion dollar project would be phased over about a 13 year period we'd start construction in about fiscal 87 and we completed about fiscal 96 or so and we hope we hope that that hundred year flood or 200 year flood doesn't happen until you get it built. Absolutely because if it happened today this devastation that you projected in this book that way for Orange County and could have seen this thread this book the Santa Ana River plan a phase one that was put out by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers where you try to

calculate nine billion dollars in damage that would happen that how do you go about trying to calculate that on us on a slide rule or with your computers or whatever that kind of cost how do you go about doing that. Well as an example at Prado Dam right now we have protection against what we call about a 70 year frequency flood OK. Anything in excess of that will go uncontrolled over the spillway or volume of water in terms of acre feet and I can't put it in any other words except in engineering terms but in acre feet almost 300000 acre feet of water would pass uncontrolled over the spillway down into the Orange County area and flow uncontrolled in that block would just spread out at the mouth as a separate owner and that would result in about two to four feet of water over the entire Orange County much of the Orange County area about 100000 acres. Hard Orenstein know that. Three to four feet of water in everyone's house relatively in this big spot or that means Fountain Valley we're talking about Westminster Stanton all the cities most of the cities except maybe the highest part of

Fullerton which is up in the Sunny Hills area Fullerton. Carl you've been what is it a voice crying in the wilderness talking about us because I can remember having interviewed you 15 years ago talking about the need for this. What about your vision of this. Well it's certainly a problem that are recognized by engineers but the general public and at the present time the federal authorities have some trouble with the immense number of dollars required to build this project and I think that's one of the the problems that has delayed getting on with the Congress and the president has got to look at the huge federal budgets and getting it passed by Congress is the immediate problem now that the initial engineering work has been done. Of course you have to put things like that in perspective last week. The Congress of the United States just passed a budget of eight hundred sixty four billion dollars. So you lay

this one billion up against that spread over how many years did you say about a ten year can stretch over 10 years then you have to put it into perspective and I you have to lay the billion against that 9 billion dollar estimate and I think if anything that's conservative wouldn't you agree. It is conserved we had as actually under current prices. Since that estimate was made we're now looking at a revised estimate of anywhere between 11 and 12 million and I think I don't have correct answer to it. That's correct in a general as it's increased. I think that people should know that this is bigger than Orange County it involves San Bernardino County and Riverside County and I have an interesting resolution here that was just passed would you tell us about this resolution rather than my reading it would you just synthesize it for us. On March 29. The Board of Supervisors in Orange County passed a resolution which was concurrently passed by the board of supervisors in San Bernardino and Riverside in what it is authorization language saying to Congress. We agree on all of the details there are a few points with

regard to the mint own dam that have to be worked out but essentially we agree that this project is necessary. We are in concurrence as three counties which we haven't had by the way we haven't had concurrence for the last six or seven years on this project and even 10 years. So we're over the hump as far as three counties joining together and saying we're ready to go on this. Give us the money and we'll start to protect our people. We should show our viewers this is a resolution this kind of historic document and that it the first time I know of all three. The Board of Supervisors unanimously saying to the Congress of the United States we want this to happen. And that in essence Well I think that's right and I had the privilege of presenting that to Congress and Ron Packard who visited our county on March 30 first of this year. And at that time he also we had a briefing at the Hall of the ministration. And in fact you conducted that briefing Dennis and then he took off in a National Guard helicopter for a two or three or four hour tour I guess it is of the river area and very very supportive of this project.

Most of our guys and I know we have five Congressman. More to the five congressman and whether I was there well I mentioned Carson Packard and he is in the water resources subcommittee of the Public Works Committee of the house and he's a key member and he's adopted this as a project that he's going to support. Congressman Danny Meyer has long supported this project he's up in the Anaheim area and his area would be totally his area would be devastated and Paterson long long supported the project comes from Lundgren representing him to be to support the project. I can speak for for those representatives because our office has dealt with those folks and they have expressed a strong desire to support my congressman Batum has he had some second thoughts about it. That's true I think that's a fair statement. He's had some second thoughts and I will be talking with him in Washington we'll ask him about that. Assuming that you can get the public to believe that this is a real threat not a make believe bogeyman threat and assuming that you can convince the congressmen of it and assuming that the three boards of supervisors are all together what happens next.

Carl if you want to take that what has to happen next with us to begin action the studies are up for consideration for next year's funding and there will be hearings in Washington on that subject. Now that's for funding just next year's study activities but the real nut is what is called an omnibus bill for authorization of the project and that's the language that the three boards have adopted asking Congress to adopt that the committee that presents it to the Congress is the committee that was mentioned with Mr. Packard. And so I don't know what the schedule is but they will then put this together with other projects throughout the United States and try to get this adopted during the current year so that the Corps of Engineers then can go full speed ahead on design and if that is adopted sometime during this calendar year then it would set in motion a design process that I think Dennis would result in the first construction three or four years from

now is that right. That's correct the first the first construction that would take place would be relocation of major utilities reconstruction of bridges on the mainstream of the scene in the river. I think we should go over this with our viewers I'd like to talk about this for a few minutes. The major improvements as I understand it would be improvements that Prado Dam which would be taking a line to no greater than elevation of 566 feet the Santa Ana River channel improvements improvements of Sandy Aqua creek and improvements of work street train and the Mill Creek levees could you tell us in a non-technical terms what does that mean. What really have to happen. OK well basically I think there was one element that you left out that was the Mentone dam feature which I understand it has left aside because the reservations of San Bernadino there's some concern however there is an understanding now of the alternative studies can be conducted following the authorization in that process for basically let me just try to give you a thumbnail sketch of what what it what it means in the early planning process we had to control our design flaw what we call our standard project

flood. We had to determine if we had enough channel capacity just enough room in the channel in Orange County and enough capacity at Prato in order to store this design. What we found out was that neither did we have enough capacity or enough channel conveyance downstream to do that. So as a consequence we raise Prato as high as we possibly could. But then we had to go upstream for alternate locations to store floodwater. So you have some dammed up steam Yes but at the same time upstream that provides significant flood protection to those upstream counties So overall it's a balance system that is indeed one that has to have the cooperative support of all three counties. We're going to come it seems now that the government the Congress the administration the Republican the Democrats are all on some kind of consensus that we need to have some jobs bills that we need to create some jobs. It seems to me that this would serve a salutary effect of having number one. It would serve our flood protection benefit and number two it would put some people to

work. You want to dress well. Interesting. You stole my thunder on that because actually what you're saying is actually what happened what was told to me by Congressman Packard in March he indicated to me and the rest of us gathered there that this is a non partisan issue or a bipartisan issue. Everybody is coming together on this issue they all feel it's important number one. Number two if Congress is really interested in pursuing a jobs program then what better thing to pursue than a project that will aide at least two million people in the event of a disaster. Most of those two million in Orange County. That's right most of them although you do have people in San Bernardino Riverside seriously which I have lived in all three counties. So if you're talking about a jobs program in some other part of the of the country and I make we're sort of a basis why not something tangible and real. So the two things have come together and we hope they're going to stay together. Let's talk about hard dollars it always gets down to dollars too. There's a resistance and a part of

the administration now to hold down spending and yet this is a project which has been studied for 19 years has been on the board since 1975. Certainly an idea whose time has come. Let's talk about the hard dollars. What is the what are the options for Orange County. I know they're going to say to Orange County you might pick up part of the tab. And the same thing with San Bernardino and Riverside. OK under the existing formula Orange Counties cost would be about sixty eight million dollars. The total billion dollar price tag under a plan proposed by the administration on a 35 percent sharing basis we're talking about that price tag going up to 350 to 400 million dollars. Now obviously there's a big difference in Obviously the Orange County Board of Supervisors would would prefer not to have the 35 percent share now but even if we go to that less preferred case take the 400 million as an outside figure you're talking about two

hundred dollars for every man woman and child in Orange County and that's not one year that's right overhead out over 10 years you're talking about $20 per capita. How that that I think is palatable. But again our preferred situation is not the 35 percent but if we have to it is necessary I think it's very vital. And that's very cheap insurance if you look at it that way. You want to compare that with flood insurance. It's a good deal. You know I think about representative government here is a perfect example where we need to have super Historia level of government interface with our congressional level of government. They've got to work together and that should include also the senators because it has to get by the Senate isn't that right. That's absolutely true as Carl was mentioning there is movement right now in Washington on this water resources bill and we know that just last week there was a bill introduced by Senator Abner who was on the Water Resources subcommittee essentially a water resources bill in the Senate. So this it's really going to take the cooperative efforts of everyone that we have here in all three counties to deal with those people

instead of them and I think and I think that's that's the kind of thing that has to be. It has to be pressured if you want to use the word pressure in that the public wants it. The county wants it and they can and the Congressional Office of us realize that it makes sense it's an expenditure that makes sense. I put that against the two hundred forty seven billion dollar defense budget alone. This is one bit. Put the one bin against eight hundred sixty four billion dollar federal budget that was adopted just last week. It's scary. I think the question isn't so much as can we afford it is it can we afford not to do it. And you comparing a one year defense budget with a 10 year flood control budget. You recently take one tenth of that billion for comparison purposes I think would be useful. Like come to Dennis for that I think would be useful if you could tell in layman's language what a 200 year flood is because people have said that to me when I've talked about this what do you mean a 200 year flood 100 year flood and so forth. OK well I'll give you the in layman's terms basically how we calculate a 200 year flood. Our design standard is what

we call our standard project flood in the sand in a river basin that just turns out to be a 200 year event. In other words that would occur statistically every 200 years. I think that lulls us into thinking well we can wait 200 years now it's not going to act like people say well what do I have to get excited about it is not going to happen for 200 years. But the case is that it has a chance of occurring in every every year. I just like to put that in perspective a bit and talk about the annual rainfall that we have in Southern California. You know as an example we have upwards of 40 inches of rain up in the mountains in the San Bernardino's. This is where most of the water comes from that would flood Orange County as these high watershed areas OK we go down to maybe 12 to 15 inches of rain down in the valley floor. OK. What we're looking at is a situation where all of that annual rainfall occurs in a very condensed time frame in say three to five days and it can occur. We know in 1862 we have some historic records to show us that flows even in excess of our design flood occurred. What is the timeframe. Yes what is

that worst of all the situations that would happen to bring this about. OK. Typically what it would be we select a storm which we consider to be the largest storm it's a real storm yet realistic to the area. We critically center that storm over the watershed with a saturated watershed so that a good deal of water does runoff and that produces what we call that design flood not just in perspective. That design flowed over the watershed we talked about 40 inches of rain in the mountains in 20 in the valley floor all occurring very quickly. This consists of our standard project flood of about four inches of rain that all runs off over the entire watershed sort of pull it into perspective it's something that can really happen and it's based on a real storm event a car a lot of people. I think we should address as a lot of people said well why doesn't our sky just on its own and shore up its sand and a river for example to build up the levees and so forth. When you answer that question address it when people say to you why don't you just aren't going to go its own and take care of the problem. Well the availability of funds to the Orange County Flood Control

District is limited by the amount of property taxes we can get. And so really we have done what we can do. In the 1600s to bond issues were proposed not for the Santa Ana River but for some of our local channels and the folks did not approve those bond issues. We have to have this horrible flooding that we have to have people without their homes we have to have loss of life for people to say gee we should a path of bond. Well I would hope not however. Our experience is is not good. As a matter of fact we had flooding on the first of March which is just a sample of what could happen if the Santa Ana River should overflow the rainfall in the local area here. Huntington Beach and Garden Grove and Santa Ana on March 1st was nearly as much as the rainfall that Dennis was talking about for the standard project flood. But it was strictly local. If the storm

had worsened and gone into the entire watershed the ascent of mountains then we would have had the kind of flooding that you saw on the opening of the show with the water running under the railroad there that broad spread wiped out railroads wiped out bridges. Yes and now there are homes in that area because there was a presumption yes that the Prado Dam building 1041 would prevent a reoccurrence. I think that's it. That's another thing we have to think about. The Orange County of today is not the Orange County of 38 nowhere near the Orange County thirty eight or even 69. We had 1.4 million people there. As a supervisor I was chairman of the board of supervisor you have to take a broad look at the problems confronting this county housing problems are transportation problems which Lord knows are serious enough problems on getting enough water powered long range water needs How would you rank this. This long range need for flight planning when you're laid up against these other problems confronting the county I was hoping you wouldn't ask me to prioritize because I think the first broad

encompasses so many different things. It depends at what time of year you're asking me in the summertime I guess it's not number one but coming off of the March floods I think it has to rank pretty close to number one. And I think it's easy to say that after talking with many people down Huntington Beach area whose homes were flooded especially mobile home parks they were actually flooded out almost out of existence. And if you ask any one of those people now would you vote for those johns I'm sure they would or should we pass this bill in Congress to widen the river and raise the dam I'm sure they'd say yes because their damage was a result of flood control channel ruptures and overflows not a result of the river. If the river goes over everybody is going to experience what they experienced and worse except like maybe on a scale of a thousand times worse than them going into one trailer park. Trying to imagine to envision of the zenana river going over I would say a thousand times is about the good way to put it.

There is a map that we have that vividly illustrates this work where the terrain is brown and then where the flood area is it's in blue and that blue covers almost all of Huntington Beach all of the valley much of Garden Grove sent in Westminster as you said Anaheim and all the way up it's absolutely incredible. And we want to avoid that kind of a situation. Assuming that you gave several scenarios to the 68 million dollar scenario that if that's the current foreman or as high as 400 million dollars in Iowa at the county Orange County sheriff that's something that we had to even go that the extreme amount of 400 million dollars in this county. How would we go about getting that given the constraints of Prop 13. That's a problem that we really haven't come up with a solution for at this point. There are probably. Things that we can do in terms of assessment assessment districts bonding I'm sure would be considered again. It isn't something that we're going to be able to absorb very

readily. You know our normal budget but those to give you an idea you don't you don't have an answer from me because we don't have an answer yet those are some of the things that we're looking at Jim as possibilities if we have to go to the extreme. If it's down to the 68 million over 10 years then I would say one viable possibility perhaps would be absorption in the regular budget. We have a couple of minutes left I'd like to know what my question is what is really being done to bring this about. Now you mentioned going back to Washington to talk at this hearing what else is being done to bring this about the long range you want to address that first. Well I think again beyond what's working with our congressman beyond what's been said The ball is in the court of the Congress now. And hopefully that's being carried and I know what is by the congressman that I've mentioned so far in Congress and Packard I'll have to again reiterate has played a key role and will play a key role in this and continues to enjoy the support of denim I have to provide and I stand it going back at you not to testify to represent the county Yes.

And as a former chairman of the Board of Supervisors he was just as avid as you have been in calling for some action. Is there any division on our board of supervisors about the need for this. No. If there is I don't perceive it in there isn't because you're talking about at least four districts out of the five super historial districts that are directly affected by this problem. And really when you look at it everybody's affected even South County because if they if they remain high and dry you're still talking about disrupting transportation communication employment economic activity in this county if this half of the county the north west have these inundated with water then obviously the bottom half of the county is going to be affected. The the potential for damage is so awesome it almost defies description. And if you just leave it with the human lives of it the problem of making people just continue to believe that in the middle of July when it's sunny out and when there's when there's no water around you have a simple remedy for that. No but if Congress adopts the bill that we ask for then we'll have to

appeal to the people of Orange County to support also. And that's what that note we're going to end because it may take an appeal to the people who are in Congress say we want this to happen. Certainly that is something that affects all of us. Our time's about up now and I want to thank you gentlemen for. Shedding some light on what has to be one of the top problems confronting this county. Please join me next week at the same time when I'll be in Sacramento talking to Orange County state legislators on some issues that are at the state level affecting us in Orange County. I'm Jim Cooper thanks for being with us.