Interview With Bill Honig

Bill Hoenig is now into the fourth year of his first four year elective term of office as states open 10 of the public get instruction for California. One of the elected you promised a crusade up and down the state to reform public school education and to demand higher expectations of excellence from students teachers and administrators. No state activity affects more people cost more money or is more important what happens in public education affects 4.2 million students from kindergarten through 12th grade. One hundred seventy four thousand teachers and 1000 and 29 school district a high well as public education working. Where is it succeeding and where is it falling short. I'm Jim Cooper. And my federal guest today is the man responsible for leadership in public schools state superintendent Bill hony. Paying for public education kindergarten through 12th grade cost a total of 15 billion dollars in

local state and federal tax dollars in California last year. The largest item on the entire state budget public education affects our whole society almost everyone has ideas on how to make schools better. The critics of public education point to everything from lack of discipline to drug traffic or sagging test scores of students heard less frequently are comments on the positive side of education. Now let's meet Mr. Hoenig bill when I took office in January 1983. He has a lot of money from UC Berkeley. He also holds an M.A. degree from California State University of San Francisco. He taught as a classroom teacher from seventy two to nine hundred seventy six and later served a superintendent of schools in Marin County. His education reforms were embodied in the Hughes heart Education Reform Act of 1903. His new book on education is entitled The Last Chance for our children. Mr. HORNIK guide I'm going to start by asking you to do something you talk about I'm going to ask you to grade yourself how when you give

marks to yourself about your question reforms in the last three years. I'm I'm satisfied I'm gratified with the with the fact that we've had. I think there's a general agreement now in California in the rest of the country that we can deliver. There's a there's a common vision for equality for excellence for standards for for discipline in the classroom. I think we've seen a momentum within the schools. There sure has been more money put into the system. So overall the atmosphere the morale the sense of movement is a lot different than it was three years ago when you started out in 1993 did you feel a little bit as a voice in the wilderness crying out for reform. I doubt many followers at that time or at the time it was somewhat extreme to talk about homework and high expectations also longer school or longer days accountability. And we fought some hard battles on these issues in the resistance to that there was some conflict in resistance but I think we're over that hump right now I think we're to the point where where principals teachers school people are now past the do what do we do. And

now we're talking about how best do we do it so that it is the biggest hurdle you think is over then. Well the biggest hurdle of getting agreement on direction. Now we have the tougher job implementation of translating those ideas into day to day action in every classroom in California. And you've written a remarkable book The Last Chance for our children last chance for our children and I think in that book you told both about your dream and your quest. You must feel like a lot of Lamachus sometimes. As a crusader and then you told about how it can be done. I'd like to read to our people at least one paragraph in that book there are many things I'd like to read but in the interest of brevity I want to know what you really are saying I thought there was one paragraph that states what you're standing for. This had to do with your your quest for academic excellence and whether you and I should say that you've made that clear whether it be vocational students or whether it be purely transfer students to college. College average student across the board across the board minorities. When I think we can deal with all men young people older

people this is what you stand for you say and there you have it. English history foreign language mathematics science the fine arts and health and physical education is the irreducible core of the modern traditional education. It is the best preparation for life. Money can buy. I'd like to pick up on that because I know there are many people who have argued. That if you take disadvantaged students people who have youngsters who have not had the opportunity for parents who gave them encouraging that home. If you ask them to come up to those standards you are asking too much of them that you must water down the curriculum in order to let them succeed. What about that. Right I think that's what we did eight 10 years ago it was a disaster in this state. If you take a look at the jobs coming available you take a look at the idea of developing a broad based citizenry in a democracy. Take a look at the idea of giving students true opportunity. And the only way you're going to do that successfully do that if you give them a strong academic fundamental program and I think we've got enough examples of

schools that have shifted to that philosophy are delivering the goods and that should be the model for that and our demanding it of minority students who are so-called disadvantaged across the board with minorities with you know with all. And of course we're not going to get 100 percent to do that but we sure can do a better job that we have in the past. And in fact our first to to Stix Jim are very positive we're seeing students take more courses harder courses more academic courses and in the lower socioeconomic areas. So they're responding as well as the so-called average student from the middle of the broad mainstream of I think your Islamic understanding by the students and by their parents and by the communities. If our children don't get this kind of fundamental education they're not going to qualify for jobs. They're not going to be able to be part of the society. Some of the things that you have said in the book have been called controversial certainly one of the idea that you've expressed is your war against value neutral teaching. Explain that to our people would you. Why you think it's such a bad idea to have value neutral education.

I don't think there is such a thing as education without taking a stand on fundamental beliefs or values. We stand for something as the adults in this society we believe in liberty and freedom and individual moral initiative and courage. And I think our students need to see hear us say that you know variety of ways. If you say to them we don't believe in anything. What do you think is right what do you think is wrong. I think that's destructive. And so our program should be organized around and transmission of our basic ideals and beliefs. Do you feel there's an illogical opposition to that by by people who are fundamentalist in religion for example who fear that teaching morality for example and teaching ethical values intrude somewhat on the the ban against church and state. Intrusion. Oh I think there's a fear from both sides I found tremendous of a fundamental support for the idea in fact they've been raising the issue that schools have been to value neutral value free values clear value absent you could say value absent and I don't. I think we gain support from that group. I think there's a fear on some others whose values.

And my argument to that a response to that yes we can't figure out as a society what what things we hold to be important and transmitted to our young people yes we should be called educators if you say things like you don't lie you don't cheat you don't steal. You have honor. You know what integrity means loyalty magnanimity tolerance compassion all those other virtues that don't intrude on anyone's religion. And I think that that's the the message that has to be gotten out there concentricity not a war with religion but rather it is a positive effort to confer values on the next and succeeding generations where we agree and I think the basic argument especially in a democracy if we can't get individuals to accept the responsibility of leading ethical lives then this democracy is at risk and that's goes right back to Jefferson. Are you getting somewhere with that effort to I think it's not as controversial anymore I think people accept it as a legitimate people don't feel threatened I don't feel threatened by it and now if we're starting again the hard work of translating that general idea or philosophy into actual programs in the classroom.

I'd like to talk now about state finance the governor just given the new budget. It has been widely advertised that the will be a nine point two percent I think it was increase for Public Education data twelve fifteen point three billion or something like that plus 100 million is it for new buses. Many people are feeling were boy the schools are doing pretty well. It is that feeling too comfortable about it. Well I think you have to give the governor credit for devoting a large portion of the budget to education it's his highest priority of the two billion dollars he had available for program spending. He gave us over half. So that's obviously a strong strong budget. I also think it's important to convey over the long haul to the general public that we have gone from 11 and a half the in dollars actually it's closer to 17 if you include everything in four years which is a substantial increase the lottery as have been part of that helped out. But even after we do all that we still have the largest class sizes in the country. We still are spending less than the other industrial states about six

to seven hundred dollars lesbian child. And if you compare us to New York we spend $900 less per student. So we're hearing about what is it 30 $200 a 233 they spend over 5000 that's 30 students in her daughter's schools $60000 a classroom they spend more than we do and that's a tremendous amount of investment to overcome. So I think wrote Our position is we're grateful for the support we think they're doing as much as they can. But I think the public should realize we have a long way to go would push hard on quality. We need the resources and it's. It's a synergistic relationship isn't it. With the extra money should come extra quality and reasonable income results and results should show account of the measurable felt measurable results in fact as you know in the book I talked about accountability. Accountability has to go with it and I think you talked about that when we had talked a lot over a year ago last time. I'd like to to ask about how we compare with other states 88 wise for you. You said Thirty two hundred dollars for our average student. Are we intent in the nation.

We're deep in the year below average we're 28 28 as 50 states budget and the lottery should bring us back to the average in the country. And what I'd like to see is catch up with over the top 25 percent of the states the other industrial states the technological state which is what we are now and we are going into a trend setting state. That's right and so I think at least we should spend we should at least catch that group and that's going to take the 5 to $600 per child and that's going to mean that teachers for example don't have a hundred sixty one hundred seventy students that they have you need every day and are able to give the essays and the writing samples and so forth but we're still in finance I'm going to quote to you from an article from the California Coalition of fair school finance and they talk about how they have a whole Bill of NOT about it. One of the things that they say at the current estimate of about $60 per pupil for this school year the refund would be less than two percent of the grand total. So they conclude that the lottery is simultaneously a splash in the pond and yet the welcome new source of revenue for schools. How do you regard this question to ponder this. We're going to buy his welcome and it's going to help it will narrow the gap of about 100 to

150 dollars once it gets up to full speed fairly quickly. But again if you're talking about six seven hundred dollars per child it gives some of the work but it doesn't do the whole job I mean that's the basic argument. We like it it's helpful but we also hear the normal increases that if you put that twenty three or four percent of the whole of the 17 out of the 17 billion it puts in in perspective there's about this help many people have that have a what should I say a false sense of security and I we've got the lottery arced our education problems are over. Well I would be I would ajor problem is we're making this effort and we have this tremendous help from the governor we have the lottery and people think OK you're home free you're swimming in money. We still have a long way to go to catch up if we're going to deliver the kind of education that we need. One of the things you alluded to in your book and you have alluded to many times is that there are many facets to this business of reform certainly teachers are a very very important part of that role. I like to call attention now to another book 60 page report I'm sure you're familiar with who will teach our children who will teach our children and that's an

interesting book that has to do with the business the whole business of revolutionizing the teaching profession. I'm going to read for our viewers a couple of those two or three other conclusions abbreviating it that teachers should be given and accept the responsibility for setting improving and policing their own professional standards too. That teacher training institutions should be unshackled from the binding maze of legislative and regulatory prescriptions on which they operate. In other words deregulation of the academic training of teachers. Number three that both teachers and training institutions should be held accountable for their performance. In short and I like this that the teaching profession should be treated the same as any other profession in our state. Comment on that report would you for me. Strong words I think they're right on the right track this week. We launched this commission center heart center when he was in myself and got a grant from Hugh Packard Foundation. I think they've come up with a very strong set of recommendations. Basically if we're going to pull off this reform movement which says that all students can learn and they have to learn in a more sophisticated level.

We need teachers coming into the system who are properly prepared. Hundred thousand teachers in the next five years that's what we're looking at into into our school and that's because of two things I guess the increase in enrollment and that many teachers are retiring or a combination easing out. We're looking at five hundred fifty thousand new students in the state in five years. So we're going to get new teachers most at the elementary school level. What this report says is they should know something about history and literature and liberal arts and science and math. They should know something about how to teach it make it come alive make the subjects work and they should have a strong assessment procedure so we know both at their college level not just the school of Ed and when they get in the first two or three years that they can actually do it and that you don't get tenure automatically that you have to earn it. And I think there are some strong suggestions in there we should follow. Are those things being fought by these and by some of the unions and some of the professional associations of the teachers. Actually they had their reaction was positive to this to this set of recommendations because what the recommendations say we need to galvanize teachers in the

school in the classroom. We need to make it a true profession and in in a tradeoff we're going to give you more responsibility or more flexibility autonomy in return you take more responsibility for self policing for disciplining teachers who are below level for granting tenure and for making decisions about the quality as the medical profession does for example or the legal profession. It's supposed to do right I think that's a hallmark of a true profession. This is the right suggestion nationally he's been getting good praise and I think California see put in action. We're talking about teachers what about teachers pay on average an average policeman now days starts out of the twenty eight thousand dollars a year almost 30000 a year. The starting pay I'll be doing that well with teachers. Well we're we're closing the gap. We what is what is the gap right with them. Three years ago was thirteen thousand five hundred starting pay at our entry and that that's after a teacher given four years of education in one years or is it to you live years out of your eyes years four years of college in one year to law you can't compete at that level. It's now up to almost $20000 beginning salary in

most districts. We'd like to bump that one more time and eventually get up to about $25000 starting salary which is about you know comparable to the other professions. And certainly it should be and not to take away from placement I would think you'd give it much to a starting teacher who's given five years of preparation if you would for example to a starting fireman or starting policeman. Well we're going on KS a trash collector we're going to have to pay the price if we want to attract quality people to teaching an argument in recruiting is this is fulfilling its important to society. You're going to sit you're going to like what you do. And we're also going to give you enough money so that you can support yourself. And I think we'll attract good people. In the three years you've been going up and down the state has self esteem of teachers risen or other many disenchanted teachers still out there. I think the morale is much higher I think it's much higher than it was they see the public supporting the see more money coming the system. I think they understand that the public understands that what we do in a classroom is going to determine what kind of society we're all facing So there's a much I think there's a much better sense among teachers now than there was two three years ago.

What about dropouts I notice in your book and I think many people be interested in knowing this figure that now in California one of the most advanced we think one of the most progressive states in the Union we're still managing to get 75 percent of our students who start kindergarten to finish high school. In Japan you alluded to the fact that 91 percent of their students finish high school. And you also alluded to the fact that many European schools are doing better. What do you attribute as the biggest factor still that accounts for this terrible terrible dropout rate much worse among the minorities. Well it's actually 30 percent in the state right now which is 30 percent unacceptable and I think it's a combination of factors one is a is a rising teen age pregnancy. Once girls get pregnant they very they don't come back so that's about 20 percent of what are you doing about that one. And the special programs you have to have clinics you have to have special programs aimed at that I think we know some examples of program sex education in schools. Sure. I think that that's part of it I think working with the families I think working with the students I think working on character and morality all

of those pay off in minority dropouts or even much higher among minority dropouts so that means the second one you have to say look at doesn't you pay a price for dropping out if you drop out of school you're going to earn 50 percent less than if you stick around and get your diploma. That's got to be community. And finally there's the sense of alienation and the lack of preparation way back at the elementary and junior high school level. You start tackling the dropout problem early on. And I we've got a program must pass by Senator tours sponsored by help sponsor it. And that's in place now. And now we're having 200 schools tackle the dropout problem with individual plans I think you can see some progress along that you know among minorities to with as I said much higher black it's a higher rate antics to black Hispanic. Asians actually higher graduating rates and the Hispanics it's interesting they just did a recent study that much of the Hispanic dropout are more than they thought are from people who come here and then go back and forth between other countries. But the point is as we get this information out and as we get the plans I think will bring the dropout rate down in fact.

Jim we did said as one of our accountability goals reducing the dropout rate by 25 percent in the next five years is a bilingual education and an important part of that war against dropouts among Hispanics. I think bilingual education has to be translated Let's assure that students learn English and can make it in a regular program let's get to them early let's get them out as quickly as we can and then mainstream them as soon as they made sure and let's do what's effective. And I would my our whole position on bilingual is whatever works for the child. We do it it's an educational decision and we saved this child many disrobing this child need this program to give them some help. But make sure it's transition but you're or you support the idea bilingual if you can I support the idea of helping students make the transition as long as it's clear that we're teaching in English. You have gone into the mainstream. One of the things that you've made some headlines about and I'm sure you've had a lot of controversy about is your personal battle on what you call the dumbing down textbooks dumbing down textbooks. I've heard that expression before so must be a build on the original. Actually that it came from Terrell bell so that Carol bell.

Explain what you mean by that oh yeah I know you've had a war about them and people said you're fighting censorship because the process of the of evolution that the theory of evolution was greatly diminished almost glossed over looking for other words to say what they what they mean by evolution. But other things skirting around sex education starting around reality. What about starting around the founding of this country that the religious groups came over here to build a city on a hill. I think the issue in the in the books as far as I'm concerned if we're going to pull off this ambitious reform program high quality high expectations a good sense of our culture and what as you say what reality is you're going to have to have books that work that tell the stories that give the examples that. That that that are well done and it just happened that the controversy came up in science but it's going to come up and history is going to come up in our reading books. We set expectations we set standards in the board of education in this state is said we're going to win we're going to hold to those standards when we adopt these

books and I think we're going to see better books because of it. The publishers are going to play ball and I think we'll get better materials you when you rejected them all with the knowledge of the Junior High Tech junior high and the reason the KKK not even thought about was a book telling evolution about policy in California for 15 years has been we teach evolution in science so that wasn't the question. What was the question is if you're going to teach are you going to teach in such a way that students can understand it of course has got to be a theory of evolution but still you have to understand what the arguments are. And the publishers and ducked it because of the controversy. And if we allow them to duck that issue they'll duck every issue that's controversial and our students will get for their materials. Have you had a strong resistance from fundamental religious groups about that who are concerned. That you're completely eliminating anything to do with the creativity theory there was some objection I think once the argument got across that look I'm for ethics I'm for values I'm for quality and this is an issue of quality actually are. Then we had flak from the scientists that didn't think we went far enough and thought we should gone further. Well we said it was a theory of

evolution which they were explaining which is our policy. I think the point was came out clear the board hung together. Good strong decision clearly communicated to the publishers. We are going to demand quality in California across the board I think the story of our own American Revolution is going to be one of the most compelling and thrilling and exciting episodes in all of history. I would do any good now after I look at the we're on Origin Liu's compelling use absolutely these words making it exciting. You read in the textbooks you lose the drama you the words aren't there the stories aren't there to hit it out of it is that students on fire reading about that. It's interesting you did a study and they had a magazine writers Time Newsweek magazine writers rewrite the textbooks. Students remember 40 percent more the material because it became interesting. It is it is an grossing story it's a great story and every student a graduate should be able to give a defense of democracy they don't have to be absolutely what what. You said that is the thesis for this whole book. That's right that if you're going to be a citizen of a democratic society and have to make decisions

you'd better damn well be educated. We better know what we mean by freedom liberty and limited government we you better know what we what the what this citizen's obligation should be I that that's all part and parcel of being educated and our courses to reflect that. One of the things you expressed concern about in recent speech that you made was the intrusion of unions when they elect board officials in other words the advent of some some school boards that have been put into action where the unions backed certain candidates and took over a board literally took over a board. You want to enlarge the bit about your concern about that. My my position is I think it's perfectly legitimate for if we leave unions or teachers to get involved in elections I think that's fine. But I think when it goes too far if you have a union sponsored board yes in a sense then it did it cause some problems in objectivity. And there have been some problems along those lines. Participation Yes. Taking over now.

Well I think you could broaden that question to any of for example an ultra liberal group or an ultra conservative group that literally takes over a board any one major as any one major segment of society that totally captivate your captivate the board I should say captures the board. I think the answer is if citizens want proper boards of education then more people are going to have to have a broader interest is the adding to those selections. That's right. And unfortunately we've had some school district elections as you know they are saying 5 percent 4 percent 7 percent which is dismal. I'd like to talk a bit further about what you would like to do on another area. And it had to do with remediation everybody got an idea of what we should do about the medial education the state university system the University of California system had there's been some suggestions that their remedial work should be done by community colleges. Josh Smith the new chancellor of community colleges has suggested that remedial work that's going to be done at community colleges should really start in the 11th grade by placement tests. What is your idea about remedial remedial work. Well I like to do it. I think we all should do it but basically we should do it first and

our job is to make sure the students are prepared for community colleges or the college system. They should tell us here's what we're looking for. We should make sure students have that test tomorrow I like Josh midsts idea of 11th grade testing placement test the licensing placement testing and communicating to students. And you wonder you want to pursue the following career you want to pursue the following educational vehicle. Here's what you're going to have to know and get that information to them early and then gear our educational programs to make sure they get it. I have no problems with what they're trying to do. I'm at the community colleges. In fact I think they should give the U.S. placement. Whether you passed basic English as mathematics or say college early on so students know and would you be tough on those placement tests or they couldn't pass them early on they can go back to remedial work. Well it would lower the standards to get them in no if you can't pass it then we concentrate on getting you to pass it so that you are ready for those programs. It's I think it's a cruel hoax to students to say would you say were you passed a gushy diploma but you can't make it to college and you going to drop out and

run out of 5 students. Makes it through the state college system and actually graduates in five years. One out of five has a tremendous dropout rate which means the preparation isn't there in many cases that's partly our fault and the product much better on this academic line now than it was three years ago. Oh I think that the average high school graduate I guess would be that way. I get that get as into SAT scores and maybe we should talk about SAT scores but if the product better now three years later than when you went in I think that the first signs that we're making progress we've got a long way to go but it's as you said SAT scores are up both in reading and mathematics. Our 12th grade scores are up. Our broad it's great good scores are not up eighth grade we have a problem 6 3rd 12 they're all moving in the strong direction junior high and middle schools we have a problem. But the students are taking harder courses I think they've got a better attitude I think they're better prepared and we're starting to get confirmation of that from the college people or for people who hire there something is going on. You sound like a man who had not completed his quest. What about your personal plans for

the future for Bellona. Well I'm going to stick at what I'm doing for a while if I if I get the opportunity I think there's we've got five to 10 years of this to keep pushing and keep the pressure on. And then we're going to see the kind of educational system we all can be proud of. In closing what would you like to say to every average citizen in California who want to do something about all this we're talking about love to say don't stay involved. Watch what we're doing. Give us the support for these reforms and when we need you at local board meetings or politically or just to see what we're doing. Give us the support that's necessary the book I wrote that book because I want to say here's what we're trying to do. We need your help in accomplishing it. And keep with us in this whole question are more people involved. I think there are I think there are interests I think I have no problems with getting people into the schools. No problem for getting people interested in this bill is a good way to end our discussion. I time's almost up not I want to thank you Mr. Hoenig for your comments about public education and your priorities about it. This has been a special broadcast for public television with Bill Hoenig State Superintendent of Public Instruction for California. I'm Jim Cooper. Thanks for being with us.