Voter's Pipeline; Country Beat: The Methadone 30 Program in Orange County.

Channel 15 now presenting voters pipeline a program designed to keep voters in touch with the people they elect to office. The program alternates each week in dialogues with Orange County elected officials in Washington Sacramento county government and with personalities in Orange County discussing local issues. Today's program is entitled County and centers on the methadone drug program in Orange County. Now here's your host Jim Cooper. For. Inside this ordinary office building with no outside markings is the Westminster methadone clinic one of five methadone clinics operated by the human services agency throughout Orange County. Seven days a week between 6:00 a.m. and 9:00 PM 7:00 the Orange County residents come here for a daily dose of an addictive drug called methadone. All of the clients have a long history with because of crime

associated with their drug habits. The daily drink of methadone most are able to lead lives as useful family members parents and taxpayers. Thirty eight out of the 70 are holding down steady jobs many of them for the first time in their lives. But advocates of the program say that the three hundred sixty six clients now on method on all over the county have their first working plan to get off heroin and work toward leading normal lives. Clients when they arrive are subject to unannounced urine tests several times per week to prove that they have not been using heroin. Such tests must be witnessed by clinic staff members to verify that their honestly conducted method on drug supply are carefully measured and recorded with each daily dose. Fiber level. And it's one of the nurses who give the daily dose to a client client then go to work or back to their homes. A large number of our parents refuse or must drink the methadone in the presence of one of the registered nurses. Some however are allowed to take home

several days doses in a locked box. They all sign a contract covering a two year program of maintenance on methadone. The object is to slowly phase them off I'm sure that they're completely drug free. At the end of two years. When that's a fictitious name. Has been on the program for 10 months. She has six children. She's off heroin now. But when she was on heroin or have it cost $75 a day. What was your life like for you and your family before you came on the program. Feeling. Well. The kids were. Very neglected not to the point where they were. But that they didn't get the attention they needed and. Most of the money. Went. For drugs. And. All in all it wasn't a very pretty sight. How has the program helped you personally this 10 months that you've been on methadone.

Well it helped me get through my pregnancy and now. Our life at home is normal. It's. Like anybody else it's now. How well do you function is it really working for you. Oh yes. Yes. What would you be doing now if it were not for this program on methadone. I hate to think that I'd be trading. Probably sitting in jail somewhere. But you hope for the future. And just. Do to raise six healthy kids and be happy. Are you hoping to be off methadone also all your time. When I'm ready. Is that going to work for you. I think so. Yeah there you go. Although an actual method non-dog scoring only a few cents a day. That's only part of the story. Counseling is a big part of the program. Doctors nurses and psychologists make up the staff at the five clinics and the county administer the program. It's annual overall cost is nine hundred thousand dollars with

about 25 percent coming from the state and 15 percent from the National Institute on Drug Abuse and the middle class. Jim you know a counselor talked with a client on our progress in the 30 percent of the clients are women. The average age is about 26. Next up clients pay twelve dollars a week for the services. If they're financially able. Otherwise it can be paid for the client through medical. Debt that's not his real name has been on methadone in Orange County for over six years and had been heroin free for all this time. He's married has two children and now has his own business when he was on heroin for 17 years prior to entering this program his habit cost him 50 to 100 dollars a day. It also cost him numerous terms in the Orange County jail and in federal prison. What was your life like before you had any hope for meth. Well it was. A pretty touch and go. Actually I was either sick or got out Scott hustling to you know to get money or. Try to get enough

drugs to feel well. And then you think you're all right and you really know well and you so consequently I couldn't hold down a steady job and I was just and I had a lot of marital problems and it was just. You never together. How is method on help you know what. What is it really meant to you in your personal life your family life your working life. Well it's helped. It's helped all three of them because after I got on methadone. That's why I went to business for myself. And you come in early get your dose. You don't have to spend all your time out on the streets trying to trying to score. And. You know the bright lights come on you can see yourself and you see what you are doing because it doesn't really get you loaded it just makes you so you're not sick and you know you can function. Some people say that all the methadone program does is substitute one addiction method on for another addiction heroin. What do you say about people who criticize the program that way.

Well that's true in a way but. You're not going to go to jail for using methadone and it's not costing you a hundred dollars a day. And I don't know how it affects a lot of other people but it sure has worked for me. What you want to go from here what your your hope as far as phasing out. Well I'm detoxing now off the program I should be off of it this year. And. Mentally you know I but I feel good about I got my head the right place now and I'm just going to. Slide off the program and. You know just be. A normal citizen and continue in business and live happily ever after i hope. This is a bottle of methadone. This bottle cost taxpayers of Orange County a total of eight dollars. It will keep all 70 clients of the center fully supplied with their dose about 35 milligrams a day for four days. That's about 28 cents a day per client. The average cost of a heroin habit is

$75 per day in Orange County as an illicit drug. This means an addict without money has to steal or rob about three times that $75 to support his habit. From the standpoint of society. It means replacing a $75 a day heroin habit with a 28 cent a day methadone dose. Jim Cooper for KABC TV at the Westminster method on center. Back to that little open sojourn at a clinic and the unusual opportunity to go inside the clinic we're going to have someone usual perspectives on this program from four different people in all four of our people today on the program have a different view a different vision of this problem. We're going to ask each of them to be as candid as possible. Some effort to find out the good parts in the bad parts about it. Bill Edelman is deputy director of mental health services for Orange County in charge of the drug treatment program. He's worked in the area of drug abuse for 12 years prior to coming to Orange County last year he was in

charge of the drug program in San Mateo County. Sergeant bond same as narcotics supervisor for the Santa Ana Police Department. He has eight years of law enforcement experience in Orange County including four years. They sent in a police department Narcotics Section. Linda that's a fictitious name. Is 29 years old and has two children. She's been addicted to heroin since the age of twenty one thousand seventy seven she withdrew from heroin and became a clinic of the Westminster method on center. She was on methadone for two and a half years during which time she became pregnant and she delivered a baby using a very low dose of one milligram per day of methadone. After her delivery after baby's delivery in February 78 she terminated with the methadone program and she is now drug free and involved in local community activities. Tom His name is being used for this program only he's 42 years old married and three children. He first began using heroin in 1056 and during his 23 years of heroin addiction he has been in and out of state prison. He's presently a client in the

Westminster methadone treatment program and he's attempting to detox right now completely off of methadone. I'm going to ask each of you to start with a very. Casual comment. Informal comment. On your version of this broad question. Is it worth the effort the time and the money to keep on with these methadone centers and let's start with you. Well Jim I I think I'd look at the methadone program as a way of maybe using an analogy between a carpenter having the need for a hammer to be able to be a cop and then method on is for us in the Khania tool for helping some people who meet some very stringent criteria in terms of admission. And there are people who have failed that other forms of treatment. And not only have failed but failed twice before. And also people who have had an extensive history of heroin

addiction methadone program is not a tool for someone who has just begun to experiment with drugs. It's for people who've had an investment in a healthy lifestyle. But within the context that you have just described you feel it has a valid place and should be continued. Most stuff in the same way we wouldn't want to take away the hammer from the carpenter. I think it would be a crime to take away nothing on from those of us who are dedicated to treating people. We have a problem with heroin addiction. I think we might have a different view of it. Let's hear what the sergeant had to say about being a police officer. I'm sure you expect me to have an opposite view and and for the most part I do. I feel that in terms of its effectiveness. I think that the liabilities of the program outweigh the assets to a large degree. I can only relate to what experiences I have in in around a methadone type program in the people that I talk to that have been on the methadone

program. Being a police officer for about 8 years I've probably talked in excess of 2000 heroin addicts easily and what comes back to you what are they saying to you. Well what's the message you know for the most part I get the opinion that they don't like the program. You know we've seen some representatives that have showed a totally different view here today but for the most part they feel that. Methadone is a harder harder drug to kick than then heroin. And of course being addicts said they are they you know they don't really get any type of rush or exhilaration of using methadone so. And in turn if they go out and try to use her and while they're using methadone if they're in a high dose level then they're not going to experience the feeling that they would normally get by injecting heroin. I can only based on my experience and most of the negative your experience have been negative most of the addicts that I've talked to have not liked the program or that's not saying that it's

not for everybody and has given any special problem for law enforcement like dealing with methadone. Is that a big problem do you regard or not. Well years ago it was when the methadone program first started out they were destroyed disposed just distributing pills and you know they would be able to obtain it and sell it now since they've gone to the liquid. It's almost impossible for them to do that to get any of it. Yeah that's no problem at all. We can. Have our audience share in this same debate because we have a price tag of $100000 a year. The budget said 1.3 million maybe you'd better straighten that out for us. You know the published writers 1.3 million yet you say you can do the program for nine hundred thousand a year. We will probably come in under $100000 how why is that the year that much below the budget. Well we have tried to initiate all sorts of course saving devices by delayed hiring and keeping in mind that these are taxpayers dollars and they're very conscious of trying to keep our budget.

I doubt if anyone had a little hand computer home that's the way we did a story simply that maybe this is oversimplification but we divided the three hundred sixty six addicts into the $900000 budget and it's a cost to taxpayers of about twenty seven hundred sixty eight dollars a year to keep them on the program. And then we got some other price tags such as the price tag to keep an addict in jail is $20 and 30 cents a day to keep one in the prison the federal state prison rather is twenty seven dollars and forty cents a day. So if you're going by sheer economics if you can keep the person maintain a program. Compared to maintaining a minute in a county jail or state prison. Very dollar wise you're ahead of. And maybe that's got a flow on it well how do you what do you want to say about that. It's all relative. You can look at any way you want. One thing I would like to point out is if you take the whole perspective of heroin and heroin addiction in the county I estimate there's 10000 heroin addicts in Orange County. OK I've heard figures 2000 I've heard

6000. I've heard over 12000. Yeah I've heard. I heard if I read a figure today twelve hundred. Well that's to me is I know 12 hundred Personally I tell you and I don't know all of them and I say if you say 10000 Is that what you're at the meeting I would estimate what in your mind very conservative estimates and what does my figure bet estimates is that people. Tend to overexaggerate numbers for budgetary reasons that it's a traditional game in government where people make a statement about what the problem is and the need for more money based upon our real experience of seeing people come into the clinic for detoxification or for other kinds of drug free services. I would say that there are somewhere between 2000 and maybe as high as three or four. And I frankly do not have the information that Bob has in terms of usage somewhere between two and four thousand.

Right I mean from our experience but our experiences are different. At least we can tell our audience that nobody not the district attorney's office not the Narcotics Officers Association not your drug abuse. Nobody has an exact amount say this is the number right. How many people are in our county or Chicanos how many are black. How many are that sure it's a hidden population it's not something that someone advertises that I am a heroin addict and please register me and count my number it's not something to be proud of. All right let's let's go to our guests. Let's talk to. Linda. Linda. I think a touch of what you had today I hope you can speak. Speak up so heated. I think Tom had a question this morning. Yes I was going to say something little bit of what you were talking about Jim that method done also and that you can see to that by being able to go back to work and know that we are taxpayers also. That's true in other words you are not very well before well on and off.

Yeah but now that I've been able to work every day and I know a lot of us that are on methadone maintenance now we're able to work. We also pay for our bills and so we're contributing to the to the monies It's getting paid for. Yes but while we're talking you time you have some vision on the broad question that we asked the gentleman up here about is it worthwhile the effort the time the money and so forth the taxpayers are putting into this program. I merely want to be sure definitely. I think that's the best thing that ever did to get rid of it I think would be a big mistake because. Well a lot of people with a bye given someone method on it would substitute for heroin sure it's possibly right but. Without all the problems that a person has with heroin you're not doing and you're not in the environment you're staying clean you're able to work. So even though you're substituting method done for heroin but still you're able to work so you really can't you really can't see that they're substituting one for the other

because you're not really having the same problems that you would on heroin alone. Are you worried about being able to detox off method on or in the beginning there was a little bit Jim but now as I'm detox and now I don't feel bad I feel pretty good it hasn't interfered with me working or anything so. It's helped me out a lot. One particular time there I was just about ready to lose my wife my home my children everything matter of fact that I had to get out of the house in order to try to do something for myself to help myself. And the only way that I could do it. I couldn't find it would be toxic not heroin because there's no such a thing I don't think you can do it for a couple days. But right away you're into the same thing again but with method on you can detox off the heroin and get on the method on maintenance and if you make up your mind that you're going to do it it can be done and you can function well you can work. Like I said mean

I'm home again I'm with my wife I'm with my children and I work everything's going along for me no problems. What when you were on heroin and how much was your habit every day. I'd say estimated. Between 50 to 150 $75 and how did you get the money. Well you worked a lot. Not every day but I worked a lot of times you had to grab whatever you could do to get your money. You just forced into it you know there's nothing else you can do when you're sick you got to go do it and you're not apprehensive about. Detoxing clear no methadone No. I think on that note I'd like to move to someone who has done that a little maybe further down in the program and you've been Tom. That's fair for you and because you have gone from here I want to have it. To a method on have it. Do nothing. Right for either have you want tell us about.

Well I wanted to comment too on what the sergeant. I don't know your title but you are stating that we like the rush and the addicts you talk to. I was always going to be addicts. Maybe they're not ready to give up the rush or the exciting life or whatever but me personally I was ready. I have a seven year old and I have a 14 month old baby that I do talk stuff a method on with. I was ready for the family life to. Have my husband come home to a clean house and dinner on the table to get involved in my daughter's school. On that he was an individual more than as a heroin addict when you think. I mean in your heart you wanted to do that. Is that it isn't that I think that's important. I think psychologically that's very important. You want to do it yourself. And the methadone program helped you in all fairness to Bill and both of you people here. Obviously I don't come into contact with people like you because you've cleaned up. I'm still seeing the negative level of it so that's what I base my opinion on you know I

think you know that's kind of the sad reality that we live with and that is Tom's job isn't really appreciated by a lot of people and he has a they have a difficult job to do in terms of seeing people who are in trouble people who are committing crimes people who are not taking care of their children. SAMENOW you talked about the sergeant right I'm sorry Bob. Yeah that's OK. I mean I've been called worse. Well I know the issue really is one where he has a difficult job and sees one side of a particular picture and not the total scene where there are individuals who are desperately trying to make some dramatic changes in their lifestyle. And it's true that those who might speak to them on the street who have all sorts of excuses why they're not changing. And one of those excuses is that they don't want to be involved in a methadone program where they don't want to be involved in a drug free

residential program where they don't want to talk to anyone about their about the problems that they're going through. And they'd rather run and play and go to jail and play cops and robbers. Part of the insurance just part of the culture thing. But it seems to me there's a very big question here and maybe we had higher hopes for methadone when it first started about 10 years ago that everyone thought that it was going to be the magic elixir. And if everybody could get on method on everybody who was on hand would be able to make it. Tom a lot of times to buy like Bob is that he runs across the lot of people that say that method Don hasn't helped them or hasn't. It's true what they what they do telling him but a lot of times you gotta look at it to buy them. Talking to a police officer or a narcotics officer whoever they want to tell him listen that program isn't any good it hasn't helped me. Even if it did help them a little bit Dave it makes him feel like a bad guy talking to him because they just want to put down the program that's not they're not going to tell him hey it did wonders for me

but he can't prove he can do that because he's still in that same spot. But if they would be more honest with themselves and tell them look at him honestly and say you know what the program did do so much for me but I couldn't make it or something that would be different but they won't do that. Let me give you a figure about success and I'd like to talk about success. As it related to the client and success and as it relates to society so let's start with success as it relates to the client. One of the things that you told me when I was talking with you earlier is that one way you would rate success is that. You have a degree of how clean they are how clean the people are and what you said when you first came in. Shortly after you came in No 23 percent were were clean. That's 23 percent of people on methadone were clean. We had to sit on the other 77 percent were using. That's correct. Now you say this last February 53 percent are clean and I would only 47 percent are using this these are your own figures.

Is that actually 55 percent. All right 55 now put it at that time we had 53 But anyway let's take 55 I mean 45 percent are still using it right. Is that really an honest measurement of success to have people only 45 percent I mean only 55 percent of the program clean. Sure. Let me try and explain that because I think it's important when you just look at the figure by itself it's kind it might be a little bit alarming. We're talking about people as I mentioned in the beginning of the program. Jim the criteria for entering the program is that they have a two year history of addiction and two treatment failures. We're not talking about church going boy scouts or a taxpayer I don't log in there people who are in off the street. They have to prove to us that they're presently using for someone to make a dramatic change in their lifestyle does take some time and I'm sure your viewers for example those of you those of the viewers that smoke will rise that they just a lot of people just can't stop smoking

instantaneously. Yeah and that does take time. And it's through the dedication of the staff working in the program and counseling is if you will so earlier in the program that creates the environment for change and change is something that is not a rapid instantaneous thing that takes place when someone comes into the program. You are trying to give advice to another person and I'm sure that you both have talked to other people. Who are users who are not on methadone. What kind of advice would you give to people who are in that program as far as I mean that situation as far as getting on the program. And as someone there is still on the street using someone who's still using heroin and they're apprehensive about whether they should even come forward and try methadone knowing that they're going to get another kind of addiction to get them off heroin. Well I have a friend that I did that for. And. There are so many negative attitudes and thoughts about method on that the only thing I could really say to her was I gave her the address of

the center closest to her she's in another state. And I told her to go down and talk with one of the counselors and talk to the people that were on the program to see if it was good for her. And three months after I gave her the address she called me and she got on the program and that's a year ago now she's off and she's clean. She's clean energy. Yes this late we ran out of time we have time left. Well I would I would. Tell him like I recently told a friend of mine also that what it's done for me and. To try and he's on the program now and he's doing good I believe he's on about six months now and in the beginning he had a rough time but now I got a phone call from him and he says that he's working real close with the consulate and he got a lot of help from one of them and just completely changed him around and he said it's unbelievable you can't believe it. I guess to Sergeant Carr seven dollars and seven cents a day according to the taxpayer is now paying seven cents a day to have somebody write it here on cost twenty seven dollars a day to keep the same

person in prison. Do you feel as a value just if you look at the economics of it the damn people maintained on methadone even if they take a long time to make it as a as opposed to not having the program I think the bottom line in this whole thing is is they have to want to do it themself if they have methadone or if they don't have methadone they have to really want to do it themselves and if they don't then the program won't work anyhow. Would you buy that. I would say people have to want to do it but I also would like to add that it's a tool like I mentioned earlier and it makes it easier for Klein. Stay with us. We'll consider just walking in the door. Task Force is now looking over this program and I never task force appointed by Margaret Greer of the human services agency so that they'll make a report in June and we'll hear more about it maybe do another program next week at the same time we'll be having a United States congressman this program will be produced in Washington D.C. If you have any questions you'd like to have asked of the people you've elected to office are about issues. Simply write voters pipeline cable see TV channel 50 I think in Beach California zip code 1 2 6 4 7. Thanks to all of

our guests today. I'm Jim Cooper. Thanks for being with us. Valley board of realtors.