Jim Cooper's Orange County; Dispute Resolution

Jim Cooper's going Scotty is made possible by grants from the Harry and gray steel foundation providing charitable assistance to deserving organizations in the areas of health education and culture by signal landmark incorporated developer of Southern California real estate and builder of Landmark homes by Robert Half an account Thames providing permanent and temporary accounting financial and ADP personnel and by Disneyland part an important part of Orange County for over 30 years. There are 55 us of all courts and 62 Superior Courts in Orange County and six new superior courts will soon be added to serve the needs of justice for the county's 2.1 million residents. But even with that total at the highest number of courts in the county's history there is still an overload on the judicial systems. Fortunately there are alternatives to settling this youth without delay of a year or more and the expenses of the court system. That alternative comes under a broad heading of dispute resolution. It's a much simpler way of getting this it's resolved outside the court process and it's working. I'm Jim Cooper and I look into it today.

The place of the YWCA in orn where the county's first dispute resolution center is located. There are disputes between consumers and merchants landlords versus tenants employers versus employees or even non contested divorce cases can be swiftly settled. Working with train mediators they define the issue and arrive

at just settling. There's no charge to residents of Orange or to those who can't afford to pay only nominal charges apply to others in a simulated dispute moderated by executive director and mediator. Martial law that was with YWCA dispute resolution workers. There's an argument between landlord and tenant over maintenance of the rental property. I told you the electricity was a fire hazard and you said you would look into that right away and I have not heard anything from you know you told me that that the electricity was just a minor problem that you would try to get someone to repair and then you would deduct it from the rad and I haven't heard any more from you. I didn't call you and I did tell you I did not say that I would fix it myself. It looks like it's very dangerous and it's a fire hazard and you said you would come over and look at it and get back to me. OK let me make sure I understand what all the issues are today and see if you all great. Number one the issue of the stairs needing repair to the carpet

needing repair or replacement. Number three the rent not being paid and being on a three day notice from the tenant from the landlord to the tenant. And this wiring in your particular apartment would you both agree on that. In this scenario the tenant portrayed by Paddy Lampy is persuaded to resume his rental payments while the landlord played by Bernie Sanders promises to make needed repairs at the rental property. For some of the people who cannot afford the expensive court system and in the past two years the center here as handled 4000 cases ranging from fair housing problems to battles between neighbors actually live with a two week timeframe. Jenny Rios is the program director for the dispute resolution center at the orange YWCA the only one of its kind in Orange County. What happens here what kind of magic can happen with all these 4000 cases that you have each year. A lot of things can happen first of all people who have serious problems

real problems will call us a lot of times people who are who call us have been through just about everybody they've called different county agencies that call different. Counselors lawyers and they've called a lot of people. By the time they get to us they're really frustrated at what they find when they call us is that there is somebody on the other end of the line who will listen and who will be patient and who will be empathetic and who understands the problem and who accepts the problem is being real. What is the value of trying to handle it just feels like landlord tenant disputes in this kind of a setting instead of the courtroom setting what the big. Plus for it. I think that the biggest advantage is that the problems actually get settled. A lot of times through the court system the person filing the complaint or filing the action does not actually get what they want out of that. Another thing is that there is not a stigmatizing effect to mediation and this process as there is in the court system where the court system makes one person the bad guy. One

person is wrong. The other person is a good guy. The other person right so there is somewhat of a stigmatizing effect. It's also less time consuming and it's also less expensive. There's real people. That are working with people who are having the problems whereas in the courtroom it's a little more formal a little more scary. And now let's meet our guests. Bonnie Castro he is an arbitrator mediator with Dispute Resolution services in Huntington Beach. She's the past commissioner of the federal mediation and conciliation service averaging over 50 cases mediated per year. Bonnie a former nurse is also the co-author of an article featured in The Journal of nursing administration entitled mediation what it is what it does. Donald O'Dell is a lawyer who has practiced law in California for more than 30 years he's also served as legal services executive for the California Teachers Association. You kindly served as counselor for the West Orange County United Teachers. He and his wife deal with a marriage family and child counselor called mediate issues of couples who are considering marital dissolution. Jail block is

an attorney and partner in the law firm of Rose Kline and Mari Aston Santana since 1973 he served as a temporary judge for the Orange County Superior Court and settlement and mediation activities in Superior Court. He co originated the idea of designating private attorneys to act as settlement judges and mediators of personal injury disputes and litigation. Well I think a great quote in the Bible which I looked up to confirm that I'm saying it properly this is from the Book of Matthew so blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God. Well it has a little Biblical injunction to our discussion today but it certainly must be gratifying to all of you in different areas to help people solve disputes and I think it gets down to. The business of living is not the business of living there but people are bound to have disagreements. I think we should probably start with you Bonnie because you had a lot of involvement with this. It really is jam people. I have found in my many years in the

Mediation and Arbitration field really tend to break down in the ability to communicate and to problem solve effectively together and as a result of that light they stop really listening to the other party and then the issues become monstrous for them. Very frequently when a third party neutral comes in what we're really doing is opening those communications and helping to establish a new problem solving model for those people so that they can begin to work together again. But you have a range that they give my federal conciliation service. That might have you settling disputes like a labor dispute that you did this AM I did it before or you might be negotiating some kind of a settlement at a mobile home park between owners. Or you might be helping to take care of a labor relations problem. What about that range of service that you go through the dispute resolution process. From my experience really is the same. It's a matter of identifying the issues and having people give you the information about those issues that helps. Be

neutral to really understand the totality of the issue and then the neutral has to be creative and help the parties to see that there are alternative ways of resolving it and making suggestions supposal. If you will or what if you did this or what if you did that and so Process wise it's really the same whether I'm working with disputing people who are getting a divorce or with disputants who are rather fighting over what the owners should be doing in terms of brands for the mobile homes or whatever the door labor dispute and the labor disputes are really where I spent the majority of my years and that's been in every industry. Jerrold I must ask you about your brand 10 12 years you get you've got to be one of the old timers in the county if you resolutions as they affect the courts tell us a little bit about that. Well I think one of the keys is running this thing is getting people together and I think probably 50 percent of the value of say a mandatory settlement conference a conference where the court

says if you want to put this case in front of a judge and a jury you're going to sit down with a judge or a temporary judge first convince that person that the case cannot be settled and that everything is going done to get it ready for a solid discussion and have people there who are ready and able to make the decisions to pay the dollars or to accept the offers 50 percent of it really is just getting them there and making sure they sit down and talk. And from then all of the techniques that a mediator may use can come into play besides all the courts and I said a hundred hundred ten courts that we have not municipal and superior He said Of course I'd like to have our viewers know that there are four hundred eight so-called arbitrators in the court and 18 of those are retired judges or four hundred eight attorneys and 18 retired judges who do this outside the courtroom process. How effective is it from your point of view. It's very effective if the parties really want it to be there are occasions in which sitting is a private arbitrator whether the case is assigned to you by the

court or by agreement where. The parties just don't seem to really have it in their heart to come in there and do a greedy good job of putting the case on in front of the arbitration proceeding. That's the smallest portion. Most of them really welcome it because most attorneys who know what they're doing know that what they have to do is get the most money possible for their client as quickly as possible. And it definitely is an efficient and less expensive cost wise way to do it. We're going to come back with some interesting figures I think many many people be surprised at the figures we have. They were given to us by Mr. Slater executive of the courts to illustrate the effectiveness of what's going on but I want to come first to you Don. Many people have felt that when you go through a divorce it's a long expensive ordeal. And yet in non contested marriage dissolutions. The part of arbitration can be a very very important role.

Could you tell us about that. Well Jim they're right certainly that it is a long haul through the courts and you know I actually divorce mediation which is really a rational alternative to this adversary system can won't work and I think is working. How about child custody child custody of course is one of the most difficult parts of this proceeding I believe. I've been involved in the matter on both sides ones that are litigated. Yes. Matter of fact I'm currently involved in something like that even though I do mediation I feel that many times there's no way that parties can even get into mediation. I know that your wife helps you in it too. I think that yes my wife is a marriage and family counselor traditionally divorce mediation which we call in California marital dissolution mediation because that's the name of our law is a situation where not only a lawyer is involved but a psychologist and sometimes as well sociologists taking into not only the legal aspects of the matter but also the emotional psychological social aspect.

I've heard many attorneys say that the courtroom is a place of a lot of pain. But the it is an adversarial arena. And very few people go out of it the same as they came into it. It has painted as stigmatising effect. What about that as opposed to arbitration in general and if you want to comment on that arbitration has the. Beauty if you will of providing the person who feels they have been injured with a forum to tell their story to someone and that very often is very important particularly a personal injury setting which is my practice because many people really don't feel it even if they've gotten whatever monetary compensation that they can in place they've had a chance to tell their story about how they were wronged how they were injured and what pain they have you know it and maybe a less formal setting in the court room is not hers they're not going to get satisfied. And to put them through what they don't really realize and that is the week or two of a jury trial really isn't necessary. They can still get that same satisfaction as well as a monetary compensation.

What about the human side of this. Again if you go into a court it's an adversarial arena for divorce what about that as opposed to the dissolution mediation that you do well outside of the courts. My experience in and primarily with the courts for say the last 25 years has been the inmate experience I have had when a plant loses it's a very devastating thing for them and often when that someone loses and someone it's almost like a good guy bad guy stigma that whether it's true or not you know they sometime have that that sensation that feeling in proper mediation I'm sure this is true in arbitration that no person should win but everybody should benefit. And I think that's a good definition of it. Yes the idea and it can be accomplished so much better in a more informal setting where people are bound by rules of evidence or the old saying that the best settlement is one where both sides are unhappy. Exactly and I need to find that out for a year they if they feel the need. Each of them feel that they've had this thing this elusive quest that we call justice The Elusive Quest for the thing we call

justice. And they each have had some kind of a point that they have won some kind of a moment that they have got their side and they said and yet the other side feels that they've had some kind of justice to outsiders that is that fair to say desensitizing everynight have a have a court room. Is it intimidating. What are some of the words you're used to going through that whole business of a of a bitterly contested battle in the court stress stressful that what you said very stressful. Define For someone that as you would have if you'd meet someone at a party that was it you do and then to find a different between your role as a factfinder as a mediator and as an arbitrator quickly. OK Jim when I act as a fact finder I essentially go in and either separately or jointly in a meeting ask the parties what the issues are and what the facts are and then I go away and I validate those facts and study them and analyze them and make recommendations to the parties for settlement. They

may or may not accept those recommendations that's really very voluntary in the mediation arena when I work with the parties again it's a voluntary process and I think Jerry's comments were extremely cogent in terms of the parties have to want to reach an agreement. Now sometimes the number is valid and I really come in good faith to the to the mediators that right. Yes. And the mediator helps to develop the environment in which they can reach agreement. And so we work issue by issue but again you're identifying issues you're gathering facts you're analyzing those and you're strategically working through each one of the issues in order to help bring the parties together so that in the end they both can say well we didn't get everything we wanted but we didn't lose everything. You know there you know that we can indeed work together. So they reach an agreement that is something that they both can live with. In arbitration in the labor arena where I work the parties define in their contract what the limitations of the arbiter are and the arbitrator comes in who knows the agreement

and listens to all the facts and all the evidence that are brought forward then the arbitrator goes away and makes a final and binding decision based on the parameters of the contract. And you've done that for example in that the tremendous thing in 1984 where there were five unions involved almost eighteen one thousand eight hundred employees and you were able to get something that when it was over both sides that they had a fair hearing in a fair settlement. Yes and the writing is in process and examination of the effectiveness of Superior Court arbitration efforts on civil cases. She was a remarkable success story in several cases involving $25000 or less they go to mandatory arbitration. In 1985 there were three thousand one hundred thirty five cases be furred first to arbitration in Orange County. Of these only seven hundred forty five that for trials. But after additional mandatory settlement conferences only 84 cases less than three percent of that original three thousand one hundred thirty five cases total actually went to

trial. I think that's a tremendous testimonial of the efficacy of this process that only 3 percent of those cases and I have this vision. Gerry I'll ask you to respond. I had this vision of what would have cost the taxpayers collectively had those 3000 and some cases actually gone to trial rather than only 84 that it was whittled down to he'll be in astronautical doubt and I can't I can't have anywhere near telling the courts also keep statistics on the number of trial days that are saved when a case settles in at the end of the day it's not a new common for the attorneys who are serving as temporary judges that they don't meet with the judge and say OK how many did you get settled today already did you get settled how many days does that add up to. And it's astounding because you can settle a case that may take a three month trial. Yeah if it were to go all the way through a jury trial but with a couple of hours of steady work and some willingness on the part of the parties you can resolve it. And how do the judges and the attorneys in general view this relatively new

phenomenon as a way to deal and to administer justice in Orange County. I think by and large they welcome it. They do. That's a healthy thing for the average person and all but what would you say to the people on that case. Well I'd say that we've all wanted it for a long time and it's a matter of developing these things and getting down to where we have to do it and I think that probably the overcrowding of courts which by the way I've experienced since 1052 when I started practicing We were about four years behind and in trials and in Los Angeles and we got a little better. But it's the same old thing but still are saying 18 months and so forth now where these were really down to the cases where we for financial reasons for social reasons we need to Saw be seen by some other method. This business of it get down to the human side with no matter what level of dispute resolution and conflict resolution we're talking about. Are there any general. I should say pieces of advice you'd like to give people that all of us have to settle disputes we have to settle disputes in our own families or with our neighbors or with our friends our children.

What about that you have any kind of eternal values and virtues that you apply to dispute resolution. That would be helpful for all of us to know Don. So I think this the. What do you do when you. Well I think we all have to recognize that as we grow up as as individuals and and we develop certain types of traits we develop certain types of habits. And these are sometimes we develop what are known as childhood issues. We bring these to our marriages. We bring these to our disputes. We bring these probably into landlord and tenant problems or labor and management and everything. And if you have an example of what you mean by childhood the attitude is very an issue there are many times a person might bring in the attitude of a parent to be very critical of others. You know as a critical parent it's kind of a transactional analysis situation from a psychological point of view and that sometimes lead to the place where they have a dissolution of marriage over to the very easily because they put somebody else in the position the child and monitoring your wife all the time for you what percent I say it by admonishing your wife all the time by acting as her father or

parent. And many times we find in these mediations that these childhood issues have to be resolved first and for we can get down to can hardy Is there any secret the way that you try to get both sides to to recognize that and come to deal with it. I think probably speaking about it and talking putting it out in the open and sometimes the other person you know it's the last thing that they would have believed is conciliation nonthreatening much more non-threatening than the courtroom arena. Jerry I think spreading to both combatants are adversaries. I think so because no one is going to be eventually saying you were right or you were wrong or you are in effect a good person or a bad person and I think if someone comes into the process of resolving a dispute with the idea that they're ready to accept and really try to understand what the other side is talking about and ready to just let themselves be human and feel. Then let it get done then it will get done because life is good life is too exciting and life is too much to offer to go through it constantly in a contentious situation and we should resolve disputes as quickly

as we can and move on. Do you find when you're dealing with this. Do you file. There's a certain point in your discussion where you feel now we're breaking through and now we're getting there and now we're getting side a to listen to side B but B understand a problem. Do you come to a magic moment when you're in your to go here is a point when you're trying to mediate between personal injury litigation and when you either get the feeling that this is never going to work or never going to put this one together or you say now I've got a minute usually when the defendant comes up with their first offer that you think is reasonable the fact that 97 percent of the cases last year that went into civil suits in Orange County that is to say those cases in which they were judged to be $25000 in value or less that mandatory idea. Ninety seven percent of them were susceptible to agreement. And it to me is amazing the enormous validation of the concept of conciliation. You have some comments on that. I do Jim but the problem is that I indicated earlier in terms of a lack of

communication and problem solving. I work a lot with my husband as well when we're working particularly premarital agreements or in conflict situations and what we do is have the people actually work together in the conflict and make them confront that conflict because most of us when we get annoyed with somebody just stop talking with and then we shut down and then we may hear a don me tell Jerry something about what he did and then Jerry tells funny and then we start up this thing of not talking to each other. And so we encourage people to openly confront and talk and keep talking to each other even though it's painful. Because I'm not that meaningful as going through a six month trial in court for example that's right. Is that fair to say that. Yes and the techniques vary definitely differ between which system we're in in terms of labor law domestic relations personal injury litigation because I find that very often the technique of once the parties have explained their situation to me jointly

I didn't generally keep them separated for almost all the rest of the mediation process kind of went where the shadow and the other kind of a case may be where you have let's say labor were said management you would keep them together is that right. Not necessarily Jim I very frequently separate them for long periods of time and then carefully carry the issues back and forth and get consensus and then bring them all back together when everything's pulled together and feels like it's going to come together. Yes Jerry earlier about was there a breaking point and I think probably my colleagues would agree that your tummy tells you you've got to have a visceral response that it's in right now and you're neutrality. You're not only your neutrality but your demonstration of your neutrality is imperative business. They have to be convinced of your neutrality of your good will of your objectivity is not true. That's good perception because I think that's the key to it. I think mediator has been totally neutral. I mean it informed excuse me for that but I have to be informed as well to get the yes and were really neutral regarding the issues generally because were not personally involved in those issues.

I don't think any of us here are neutral regarding the process. We're real advocates of the process. But you stay separated from the issues because they're the people say issues Gerry and Donna both attorneys yet the one we saw a little vignette over the orange YWCA they were people of goodwill who were not attorneys but yet they're doing a very effective job of mediating What about training those people. Very quickly Kay in 1982 the threat I want you. Yes in 1980 my husband Robert and I had the real pleasure of putting together the curriculum and training about 15 people from all walks of life in the community some were attorneys and others were people who spend most of their time at home has homemakers and we train them to listen to identify issues to problem solve and to work with parties in terms of defusing disputes. What makes a good mediator. A good listener you have to remember that God gave you two ears and one mouth and you should be using them after a question answered.

What makes a good mediator Jerry. Human sensitivity. What makes a good mediator. I think Bonnie is right. I agree with her in that a good listener a good listener. I think that's right. And doing your homework though is not important. You must become the pianist and become acquainted what the issues really are. You have to utilize a lot of resources in the community that is you have to know in our business for instance we have to know those appraisers and we have to know sociologists are you on the phone book I mean is there some I want to get to mediation is that normally in the phone book. People who are mediators to receive a listing like that you know we're going to but I don't see where these things were just listed in the Huntington Beach directory. Only one called the channel 50 will relay the information on because there is and there are many mediators. But you can find them and I'd like to give you one phone number right now the dispute resolution center that you aren't YWCA doesn't cost anything if you live in Orange If you live outside of Orange it's very very inexpensive and it's a nice way to get it solved. 6 3 3 4 9 5 6 6 3 3 4 9 5 6 for the dispute resolution center at the orange YWCA. Well our time is almost up and I want to thank our guests for their comment on a growing part of the justice process and

it's working. Please join me next week at this time when I look at the story of 6000 police athletes coming to Orange County for the 20th annual California police and weapon. I'm Jim Cooper thanks for being with us. Jim Cooper's Orange County is made possible by grants from the Harry and Grace steel foundation

providing charitable assistance to deserving organizations in the areas of health education and culture by signal landmark incorporated developer of Southern California real estate and builder of Landmark homes by Robert Half an account temps providing permanent and temporary accounting financial and ADP personnel.