New Mexico in Focus; 744; Police Oversight Panels

>> PARTIAL FUNDING FOR THE PRODUCTION OF "NEW MEXICO INFOCUS" PROVIDED BY THE >> THIS WEEK ON "NEW MEXICO INFOCUS" WE TALK ABOUT OVERSIGHT IN THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT. >> IT SADDENS ME THAT RATHER THAN TALK ABOUT THESE ISSUES, SOME PEOPLE HAVE DECIDED TO LAUNCH PERSONAL ATTACKS. >> PLUS NEW REVELATIONS ARISE ABOUT THE FORMER POLICE CHIEF AND HIS RELATIONSHIP TO TASER INTERNATIONAL. "NEW MEXICO INFOCUS" STARTS THIS WEEK WE LOOK AT POLICE OVERSIGHT. IT IS ONE OF THE KEY ISSUES UNDERLYING PROBLEMS AT ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT, ACCORDING TO A DAMNING REPORT BY THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WHICH DECLARED EXTERNAL OVERSIGHT IS BROKEN. NMIF PRODUCER MEGAN KAMERICK TALKS WITH ONE MEMBER OF THE POLICE OVERSIGHT COMMISSION WHO RECENTLY RESIGNED AND NMIF CORRESPONDENT GWYNETH DOLAND UNION, THE CITY'S INDEPENDENT

REVIEW OFFICER AND MEMBERS OF A TASKFORCE ABOUT HOW TO CREATE MORE EFFECTIVE CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT. THE LINE LOOKING AT STORY OF DOCTORS HIRED BY THE STATE DESPITE HAVING PROBLEMS WITH PRESCRIPTION DRUG ABUSE AND HOW THIS RELATES TO THE ONGOING SHORTAGE OF HEALTHCARE PROFESSIONALS BUT WE BEGIN NEW REVELATIONS ABOUT FORMER ALBUQUERQUE POLICE CHIEF RAY SCHULTZ AND HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH TASER INTERNATIONAL. HERE IS THE LINE. >> LAST YEAR, TASER INTERNATIONAL LANDED A NEW BIG CONTRACT WITH THE CITY OF ALBUQUERQUE FOR ITS GROWING TECHNOLOGY AT ISSUE IN THE LATEST FATAL SHOOTING BY ALBUQUERQUE POLICE. KRQE REPORTS THAT FORMER POLICE CHIEF RAY SCHULTZ WAS TALKING WITH TASER ABOUT A CONSULTING GIG AFTER RETIREMENT WHILE STILL WORKING WITH THE CITY. MR. SCHULTZ WROTE IN AN EMAIL BEFORE A COUNCIL HEARING ON THE PENDING CONTRACT, THAT, QUOTE, "EVERYTHING HAS BEEN GREASED SO IT SHOULD GO WITHOUT ANY ISSUES." HE ALSO TOLD TASER HE WOULD HAVE THE EAR OF THE MAYOR AND CITY OFFICIALS AFTER RETIREMENT. MR. SCHULTZ IS NOW A CONSULT WITH TASER AND CITY COUNCILORS AND COUNCILORS WANT CITY'S

INSPECTOR GENERAL TO INVESTIGATE WHETHER MR SHULTZ VIOLATED THE CONFLICT OF INTEREST ORDINANCE. WE HOPE TO HAVE MAYOR RICHARD BERRY ON OUR SHOW SOON TO TALK ABOUT APD AND THE DOJ REPORT, BUT RIGHT NOW WE HAVE A GREAT LINE PLAN TO DISCUSS THIS NEWEST DEVELOPMENT. ONE OF OUR REGULARS IS ROB NIKOLEWSKI, OF THE NEW MEXICO WATCHDOG. ANOTHER LINE REGULAR IS BACK AT THE TABLE DANIEL FOLEY, FORMER HOUSE MINORITY WHIP, ALSO AT THE LINE TABLE FORMER STATE SENATOR, ERIC GRIEGO, GREAT TO HAVE YOU BACK. AND WELCOME BACK ANTOINETTE SEDILLO LOPEZ FORMER LAW PROFESSOR AND NOW EXECUTIVE DIRECT OF ENLACE COMUNITARIO. VERY CONGRATULATIONS FROM EVERYBODY HERE TO SEE YOU ON THAT. >> FORMER CHIEF TOLD KRQE HIS ACTIONS DID NOT VIOLATE THE ORDINANCE. LET'S GET TO THE ORDINANCE FIRST. YOUR READ ON A TIMELINE. DID HE OR DID HE NOT WALK INTO A GRAY AREA AT THE LEAST ON >> AT THE LEAST, YES. THERE IS A WHOLE BUNCH OF IT SEEMS TO BE GETTING WORSE AND WORSE EVERY SINGLE WEEK. THE OTHER QUESTION I HAD OUT IN LEFT FIELD IS IF WE'RE BUYING THE TASERS NOT JUST

TASTERS THEMSELVES BUT ALSO THE CAMERA THAT TASERS -- AS FAR AS THE TASER ITSELF THAT ZAP YOU, IF WE HAVE THESE THINGS, WHY WERE NOT THEY USED IN THE BOYD SHOOTING? TO ME THIS THING JUST -- >> WERE THEY IN FACT USED A COUPLE TIMES. DO I RECALL READING THAT THE TASERS WERE TRIED, HE HAD A BIG THING JACKET, AND IT DIDN'T QUITE WORK OUT. MAYBE ONE OF THE SUITE OF THINGS THAT THEY TRIED. >> I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT ONE BUT THIS WHOLE THING JUST BRINGS UP A LOT OF QUESTIONS. THE OTHER QUESTION IS IF WE'RE BUYING TASERS, NOT JUST THE THING THAT ZAPS YOU, BUT ALSO THE CAMERAS, WHY AREN'T WE USING THEM? >> RIGHT. WE'LL GET TO THAT IN A LITTLE BIT. I HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT PROCESS WHEN IT COMES TO COUNCIL. THIS IS A BIG CONTRACT WORTH 2 MILLION DOLLARS. HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN? WHAT IS THE PROCESS THAT -- THERE HAS TO BE OTHER FINGERPRINTS ON THIS, IT SEEMS TO ME, THIS CONTRACT, BESIDES RAY SCHULTZ. WE ARE ALL LAYING THIS AT HIS FEET AS IF HE SNOOKERED THE CITY.

>> I AM SURPRISED THAT, TO USE WHICH MEANS SOMEHOW THEY GOT IT PAST COUNCIL. THAT IS WHEN THOSE TOUGH QUESTIONS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE. THE FORM OF GOVERNMENT WE HAVE IN THE CITY IS YOU HAVE A STRONG MAYOR BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT ROLE FOR THE COUNCIL IS AT LEAST TO HAVE OVERSIGHT, EVEN IF THEY DON'T HAVE THE VOTES TO CHANGE ANYTHING, TO ASK TOUGH QUESTIONS, AND I AM SURPRISED IT MADE IT PAST BECAUSE IT IS A CLEAR VIOLATION. >> THERE IS NO WAY, THE GREASE PART IS WHAT WORRIES ME AND SOME TOUGH QUESTIONS NEED TO BE ASKED ABOUT WHERE WAS THE COUNCIL OVERSIGHT ON THIS, BECAUSE I CAN'T IMAGINE THAT THIS KIND OF CONTRACT SORT OF SLIDES THROUGH WITH NOBODY ASKING A QUESTION. >> THAT IS YET TO BE UNFOLDED. >> THE OTHER POINT YOU MENTIONED INSPECTOR GENERAL. PART OF THE PROBLEM IS WE PASSED THAT BACK IN 2004 WHEN I WAS ON COUNCIL AND IT HAS BEEN SYSTEMATICALLY WATERED DOWN SINCE THEN. THAT IS PART OF THE PROBLEM. THERE A LOT OF WORK TO DO WITH POLICE OVERSIGHT, BUT IF WE HAD A REAL INSPECTOR GENERAL, WITH REAL AUTHORITY AND

BUDGET, STRONG SUBPOENA AUTHORITY, SOME OF THESE WOULDN'T BE SQUEAKING THROUGH THE WAY THEY ARE. >> ANTOINETTE GOOD TO SEE YOU AND THIS IDEA OF THE SMELL TEST, DOES THIS PASS FOR YOU, OR DOES HE HAVE WIGGLE ROOM. >> I DON'T SEE THE WIGGLE I THINK THIS IS JUST A REAL PROBLEM WITH ACCOUNTABILITY, WHICH IS JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF THE ACCOUNTABILITY PROBLEMS; WHERE IS ACCOUNTABILITY? AND YOU TALK ABOUT THE COUNCIL OVERSIGHT. YOU'RE RIGHT, THE COUNCIL NEEDS TO HAVE THE ABILITY TO REVIEW THESE KINDS OF THINGS BUT IT NEEDS TO BE BROUGHT TO THEM. SO, THERE IS ACCOUNTABILITY LEVELS IN THE CONTRACT. THERE IS ACCOUNTABILITY LEVELS IN THE APPROVAL PROCESS, ACCOUNTABILITY LEVELS IN THE PROCESS. IT IS REALLY PROBLEMATIC AND UNFORTUNATELY ACCOUNTABILITY IS A THEME RIGHT NOW. MY ADVICE TO THE MAYOR AND PEOPLE CHARGED WITH KIND OF REVIEWING EVERYTHING THAT IS GOING ON, IS DON'T FOCUS ON THE DEFENSIVE MODE, FOCUS ON FIXING IT AND I THINK THE HEART OF IT IS ACCOUNTABILITY. >> THAT GOES DOWN THE LINE TO

THE STREET OFFICERS, THE ACCOUNTABILITY, RIGHT? IT HAS TO START AT THE TOP AND YOU BRING IT ALL THE WAY DOWN, WHICH MEANS TURNING ON THE CAMERA. BUT NOBODY SEEMS TO PAY A PRICE FOR NOT USING THE CAMERA. FOR TWO MILLION OF TAXPAYER MONEY, SHOULDN'T WE HAVE THAT RIGHT ASK FOR BETTER THAN THIS? >> IT SEEMS THE CAMERAS DO GET ADVANCE THE POLICE OFFICER'S CLAIM. IT IS WHENEVER THERE IS A STICKY SITUATION, THEY MIRACULOUSLY FORGET TO TURN THEM ON. THAT IS WHAT FRUSTRATES THE PUBLIC. THEY SEEM TO IN THE 11TH HOUR HAVE INFORMATION THAT SAYS WE WERE RIGHT, HERES IS THE VIDEO, BUT WHEN EVERYBODY GOES WE THINK YOU'RE WRONG, THE VIDEO DIDN'T GO ON, THE PERSON NOT TRAINED. WE ALSO HAVE TO REMEMBER, ONE OF THE KEY THINGS ABOUT THIS NO BIG CONTRACT WITH THE FORMER CHIEF, CLEARLY A POOR CHOICE OF WORDS. BUT I THINK TO TRY TO LAY THIS ANYWHERE OTHER THAN TO CITY COUNCIL AND SAY, HOW DID YOU GUYS -- HOW DOES THIS GUY SAY

IT IS GREASED? >> THAT IMPLIES SOMETHING. >> HE ACTUALLY PROBABLY TALKED TO SOMEBODY AND THE LAST TIME I CHECKED IT TAKES MORE THAN ONE OR TWO PEOPLE TO GET THROUGH THE CITY COUNCIL. THERE HAVE TO BE THIS MEETING OF PEOPLE TALKING THAT AGREED TO DO THIS. MAYBE THERE IS A VALID REASON FOR IT. MAYBE IF HE STEPS FORWARD AND SAYS, THESE ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT CAN DO, EVERYBODY ELSE WAS FIVE OR SIX TIMES THE AMOUNT OF MONEY, IT IS UNDERSTANDABLE. >> BUT THERE IS SOMETHING THAT IS NOT RIGHT, RIGHT AFTER YOU LEAVE, YOU GET THIS JOB. THE JOB PART DOESN'T BOTHER ME AS MUCH BECAUSE I GET IT. IT IS A LARGE CITY USING THEIR PRODUCT. THAT IS THE PERSON YOU WANT OUT AT CONVENTIONS AND YOU WANT TALKING TO OTHERS. >> CREDIBILITY. >> IT SPEAKS TO THE LARGER CULTURAL PROBLEM AT APD AND THE LEADERSHIP. RAY SCHULTZ WAS AROUND FOR A LOT OF THE MORE EGREGIOUS STUFF THAT HAPPENED UNDER VARIOUS MAYORS AND THERE WAS A

REAL LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY, AND IF DOWN THE CHAIN OF COMMAND WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IS WE'RE GOING TO SORT OF PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH RULES WE WANT TO APPLY. IT IS REAL HARD FOR A FRONT LINE OFFICER TO KNOW, AM I SUPPOSED TO FOLLOW THE RULES ON THIS? AM I NOT SUPPOSED TO FOLLOW THE RUES? THE TOP SORT OF FAST AND LOOSE WITH WHAT THE RULES ARE AND THIS IS A PROBLEM THAT GOES TO LEADERSHIP AT APD THAT REALLY HAS TO BE FIXED. AND THE SHOOTINGS AND THE CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATIONS ASIDE, I THINK THERE ARE SERIOUS CULTURAL ISSUES IN TERMS OF HOW APD MANAGING ITSELF. WE WERE TRYING TO REFORM THE POC AND GOT SHUT DOWN, NOT JUST BY THE DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATION, BUT ALSO BY THE POLICE UNION. THEY JUST DON'T WANT TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE. >> IT IS NOT JUST AN APD PROBLEM. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT JUMPED OUT AT ME WITH THE DOJ INVESTIGATION, WAS THINKING OKAY, THE DOJ IS COMING IN, THEY DO THIS ONCE EVERY 25 YEARS SOMEWHERE. THEY ARE LIKE EVERYWHERE. THIS IS ALL OVER THE U.S., THIS IS NOT JUST ALBUQUERQUE PROBLEM.

THERE SEEMS TO BE A PROBLEM WITH POLICE DEPARTMENTS THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES AND I THINK IT BEGS THE BETTER QUESTION WHICH IS, IT SEEMS LIKE ANYBODY WHO WANTS TO STAND UP AND QUESTION HOW THE POLICE OPERATES, YOU'RE AUTOMATICALLY ANTI-POLICE, PRO CRIMINAL AND AUTOMATICALLY PUTTING PEOPLE IN DANGER AND IT SEEMS THAT WHENEVER THESE CONVERSATIONS ARISE, THE POLICE OFFICERS, THE UNIONS, THOSE ORGANIZATIONS ARE THE LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR. BUT WE HAVE TO REMEMBER, I AM NOT DEFENDING MARTY CHAVEZ, BUT YOU HAVE GO TO REMEMBER MARTY CHAVEZ AND THE MAYOR BEFORE MARTY, BACA, THERE WAS A HUGE PUSH TO GET MORE POLICE OFFICERS. THE PUBLIC SAID CRIME IS TOO HIGH, GO GET MORE PEOPLE. THEY WENT OUT TO TRY TO GET MORE PEOPLE, COULDN'T PASS THE TEST. WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN YOU CAN'T GET PEOPLE TO PASS THE TEST? LOWER THE STANDARDS. >> ABSOLUTELY, I AGREE. >> NATIONALLY. >> WE'RE UNDER A MINUTE, ROB, BUT IS IT FAIR TO SAY THERE WAS A BIT OF GO FEVER MEANING WE HAD A PROBLEM, CHIEF, MAYOR, ADMINISTRATION EVERYBODY WANTS TO FIND A PROBLEM.

OH MY GOSH HERE IS THIS COMPANY THAT HAS LAPEL CAMERAS. WE'LL JUST SPEND A BUNCH OF MONEY TO HELP SOLVE THIS. DIDN'T VET IT QUITE WELL, A THE LOT OF GO FEVER. >> ALL OF THIS IS COMING AFTER THE BOYD SHOOTING AND YOU HAVE GOT TO HAVE SOME CREDIBILITY ON SOMETHING THAT IS AS IMPORTANT AS PUBLIC SAFETY AND THERE ISN'T ANY CREDIBILITY RIGHT NOW. I AM A BIG BELIEVER IN CAMERAS. I THINK LAPEL CAMERAS, AND WE SEE LOTS OF CASES ACROSS THE COUNTRY OF SOMEONE WHO JUST PULLED OVER A CITIZEN WHO PAYS TAXES FOR THE POLICE WHO IS GETTING ROUGHED UP BECAUSE HE WANTS TO RECORD THE POLICEMAN. I THINK IF YOU HAVE CAMERAS EVERYWHERE, YOU CAN CLEAR A LOT OF THESE THINGS UP AND MOST PEOPLE WILL GIVE THE POLICE THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT, BUT THEY HAVE LOST THAT HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE. >> AT THE END OF THE DAY, THERE IS TALK ABOUT THE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE BEING BY THE PUBLIC AND NOTHING BUT PUSH BACK SAYING THE PUBLIC DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT WE DO, WE DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU DO, BUT WE PAY YOU TO DO IT. >> WE TALK WITH A MEMBER OF

THE POLICE OVERSIGHT COMMISSION WHO RESIGNED EARLIER THIS MONTH. CIVILIAN BODY NOT JUST LOOK AT INDIVIDUAL CITIZEN COMPLAINTS, BUT ALSO DIRECT ITS ATTENTION TO POLICY ISSUES AND PATTERNS OF PROBLEMS AND DIFFERENT PROGRAMS THAT ARE OPERATING INSIDE APD AND MAKING RECOMMENDATIONS ABOUT HOW THOSE PROGRAMS CAN BE CHANGED. >> IN ITS 46 PAGE REPORT ON ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DECLARED, AND I QUOTE HERE, "EXTERNAL OVERSIGHT IS BROKEN AND HAS ALLOWED THE DEPARTMENT TO REMAIN UNACCOUNTABLE TO THE COMMUNITIES IT SERVES." RICHARD SHINE IS A RETIRED FEDERAL PROSECUTOR AND ONE OF THREE VOLUNTEER MEMBERS OF THE POLICE OVERSIGHT COMMISSION WHO RESIGNED EARLIER THIS MONTH, BECAUSE THEY SAID THE POC DOESN'T PROVIDE EFFECTIVE CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT. SAT DOWN WITH NMIF PRODUCER MEGAN KAMERICK TO EXPLAIN HIS DECISION AND DESCRIBE

PROPOSALS FOR A MORE EFFECTIVE OVERSIGHT SYSTEM. >> RICHARD SHINE, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US ON "NEW MEXICO INFOCUS." FIRST, I WANT TO JUST START WITH HAVING YOU EXPLAIN WHY POLICE OVERSIGHT COMMISSION. >> WELL, I WROTE A TWO PAGE LETTER TO THE MAYOR EXPLAINING THAT IN DETAIL. BASICALLY IT IS BECAUSE, PARTICULARLY AS A RESULT OF AN OPINION OFFERED BY THE CITY ATTORNEYS' OFFICE AT THE LAST MEETING ABOUT TWO WEEKS AGO OF THE POC. IT BECAME CLEAR THAT CIVILIAN -- INDEPENDENT CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT IN ALBUQUERQUE HAD BECOME A MOCKERY, AND I DIDN'T FEEL COMFORTABLE CONTINUING TO TRY TO REFORM THE SYSTEM FROM THE INSIDE, WHICH IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DO FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS, AND THAT IS THE REASON I AND THE TWO OTHER COMMISSIONERS RESIGNED. WE ALL AGREED IT HAD BECOME A MOCKERY. >> WITH THE DOJ RELEASING A SCATHING REPORT ABOUT THE

POLICE DEPARTMENT, THIS SEEMS LIKE THE OPTIMAL TIME FOR FORCING CHANGE. WHY RESIGN NOW? >> BECAUSE I AM NOT GIVING UP ON THE EFFORT TO IMPROVE CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT IN ALBUQUERQUE. I DRAFTED SOME EXTENSIVE LEGISLATIVE PROPOSAL ON HOW I THINK THE ORDINANCE COULD BE AMENDED TO CREATE INDEPENDENT CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT IN ALBUQUERQUE AND I SUBMITTED THOSE TO THE CITY COUNCIL AND ORIGINALLY TO THE POC TASKFORCE, AND I PLAN TO CONTINUE WORKING WITH WHOEVER IS WILLING TO TALK TO ME ON THE CITY COUNCIL OR OTHERWISE TO TRY TO FIX THE SYSTEM. JUST BECAUSE I RESIGNED FROM THE COMMISSION THAT DOESN'T ME I AM ABANDONING THE EFFORT. >> GIVE ME A QUICK RUNDOWN OF THE PROCESS IN TERMS OF POLICE OVERSIGHT COMMISSION AND HOW PEOPLE FILE COMPLAINTS AND HOW THEY ARE FOLLOWED UP. >> ALL RIGHT. THE CITIZEN MAKES A COMPLAINT AGAINST AN ALBUQUERQUE POLICE OFFICER FOR WHEREVER, DISCOURTEOUS ON A TRAFFIC STOP OR DOING ILLEGAL SEARCH OF THEIR HOME, WHATEVER IT

HAPPENS TO BE. INDEPENDENT REVIEW OFFICER REFERRED TO AS THE IRO, DECIDES WHETHER ONE OF HER INVESTIGATORS IS GOING TO INVESTIGATE THE MATTER OR THE INTERNAL AFFAIRS UNIT IS GOING TO INVESTIGATE THE MATTER, BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T HAVE ENOUGH STAFF TO DO ALL THE INVESTIGATIONS. >> DOJ REPORT MENTIONED SHE DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH STAFF. >> MGT REPORT A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO ALSO RAISED THAT ISSUE, BUT CITY COUNCIL HAS NEVER GIVEN HER THE ADDITIONAL STAFF. ONCE THE MATTER IS INVESTIGATED, THEN THE SET OF FINDINGS IS PREPARED IN TERMS OF A FORMAL PUBLIC RECORD LETTER IS SENT TO THE COMPLAINANT WITH RESULT OF THE FINDINGS OF THE INVESTIGATION. CURRENTLY THE IRO, THEN, MEETS WITH -- SENDS THROUGH THE CHAIN OF COMMAND. THAT LETTER IS REVIEWED BY THE SUPERVISOR OF THE SUPERVISORS IN THE CHAIN OF COMMAND OF THE OFFICER IN QUESTION AND IT GETS UP TO THE CHIEF. IF THE CHIEF DISAGREES WITH THE FINDINGS OF THE IRO, THEY

HAVE A MEETING AND DISCUSS WHETHER TO WORK OUT WITH THE FINDINGS AND SETTLE IT. IF NOT, IT BECOMES A NONCONCURRENCE. THAT IS VERY VERY RARE AND GENERALLY THE TWO WILL AGREE, AND THE THEN IT GOES TO POC FOR REVIEW. >> THAT IS WHEN YOU GET INVOLVED; THE COMMISSION. >> THE COMMISSION THAT I WAS FORMERLY ON, THAT IS THE FIRST TIME THE COMMISSION BECOMES INVOLVED IN THE MATTER. >> WHY IS THIS MODEL PROBLEMATIC? >> IT IS PROBLEMATIC FOR A COUPLE OF REASONS. FIRST BECAUSE THE STATUTE OR THE ORDINANCE, AS DRAFTED BY THE CITY COUNCIL, IS SERIOUSLY DEFECTIVE. IT IS MADE WORSE BY A NUMBER OF INTERPRETATIONS PUT ON THAT ORDINANCE BY THE CITY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE. FOR EXAMPLE, ALTHOUGH THE ORDINANCE SAYS IRO WILL WORK UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE POC, IN OCTOBER OF THIS YEAR, LAST YEAR, THE CITY ATTORNEY SUBMITTED A WRITTEN OPINION TO THE COMMISSION SAYING, SHE IS

INDEPENDENT OF THE COMMISSION, SHE IS NOT SUBJECT TO THE SUPERVISION OF THE COMMISSION AND SHE IS PART OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH UNDER THE MAYOR, AND, IN FACT, UNDER THE ORDINANCE ONE OF THE OTHER PROBLEMS OF THE ORDINANCE IS, WHEN HER TWO-YEAR CONTRACT IS UP, SHE HAS TO BE APPOINTED BY THE MAYOR, SO SHE IS WORRIED ABOUT HER JOB IN TERMS OF MAYOR. >> SHE HAS BEEN THERE ABOUT 18 MONTHS? >> SHE JOINED THE SAME TIME AS I DID, SEPTEMBER OF 2012. SO, THAT IS -- >> CAN I ASK, IF YOU DIDN'T WRITTEN OR THE LAW WAS WRITTEN, COULD YOU HAVE TRIED TO CHANGE THAT? COULD THE COMMISSION TRY TO CHANGE THAT? >> THE COMMISSION DOESN'T HAVE POWER TO CHANGE THAT. THE ONLY ONE THAT HAS POWER TO CHAIN THAT IS THE CITY COUNCIL. WE HAVE TRIED TO DO THAT. THAT IS WHY I SUBMITTED MY PERSONAL RECOMMENDATIONS, NOT THE COMMISSIONS' RECOMMENDATIONS, BUT THAT IS WHY I SUBMITTED LENGTHY LEGISLATIVE PROPOSAL TO THE CITY COUNCIL. >> THIS CAME UP IN THE COUNCIL MEETING THAT WAS HELD THIS

WEEK. SEVERAL PEOPLE IMPLIED THAT YOU THREE RESIGNED FROM THE COMMISSION BECAUSE YOU WERE HOPING TO BE APPOINTED TO WHATEVER NEW OVERSIGHT BODY IS CREATED. CAN YOU RESPOND TO THAT? >> FIRST OF ALL, IT SADDENS ME THAT RATHER THAN TALK ABOUT THESE ISSUES, SOME PEOPLE HAVE DECIDED TO LAUNCH PERSONAL ATTACKS ON THE THREE COMMISSIONERS. AND I HAVE NOT PUBLICLY SPOKEN ABOUT THAT BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO GET INTO A CONTEST ON TELEVISION OR WHATEVER WITH THE PEOPLE, BUT SINCE YOU ASKED ME, LOOK, THIS IS A JOB THAT IS A NONPAYING JOB, THE CITY COUNCIL, STUDY SESSION HAS ALREADY SAID THEY ARE NOT GOING TO AUTHORIZE, AS I HAD RECOMMENDED, $10,000 PAYMENT PER YEAR FOR COMMISSIONERS, BECAUSE WE DO SPEND AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF TIME. BUT IT IS GOING TO BE A NONPAYING JOB. I AM 74 YEARS OLD. I DON'T NEED ANOTHER NONPAYING

JOB. IT IS ABSURD TO SUGGEST THAT. IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT MS. HAMMER SAID AT THE CITY COUNCIL HEARING THE OTHER NIGHT AS TO WHY SHE STARTED THAT RUMOR IN A PRESS STATEMENT SHE MADE, SHE SAID, WELL THERE WAS TWO DAYS AFTER THE NEW LEGISLATION CAME OUT THEY RESIGNED, WELL, IN FACT, WE STARTED TALKING ABOUT RESIGNING THE NIGHT THE CITY ATTORNEY AT THE APRIL HEARING, TWO WEEKS AGO, MADE HIS ABSURD OFFER -- ABSURD OPINION THAT OUR APPROVAL EMPOWERMENT ONLY THAT WE HAD TO MAKE SURE THAT THE LETTER SHOWED THAT IT WAS THE CHIEF OF POLICE' FINDINGS AND WE COULD DO NOTHING OTHER THAN. WE STARTED TALKING ABOUT RESIGNING LONG BEFORE THAT. THE NOTION OF THE TASKFORCE AND POC MEMBERS SHOULD NOT BE ON THE NEW COMMISSION WAS FIRST BROACHED BY THE TASKFORCE IN ITS REPORT LAST DECEMBER, LAST JANUARY, RATHER. SO, I MEAN IT IS ABSURD TO

SUGGEST THAT THE THREE OF US RESIGNED LOOKING FOR A JOB THAT MAY NOT EXIST, BECAUSE NONE OF US HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN AND WHAT IS GOING TO BE SET UP. ONE FINAL THING, THAT IS, AT ANY TIME CITY COUNCIL BY SIMPLE DRAFTING METHOD CAN PREVENT US FROM BEING ON THERE, ANYONE THAT HAS BEEN A COMMISSIONER FOR ONE, TWO YEARS OR THE LAST THREE, ARE INELIGIBLE TO BE ON THERE. IT IS ABSURD TO SUGGEST THAT THAT IS THE REASON WHY WE RESIGNED. >> LET'S SHIFT TO WHAT YOU THINK MORE EFFECTIVE OVERSIGHT OF A POLICE DEPARTMENT WOULD LOOK LIKE. YOU SUBMITTED A DRAFT KIND OF REVAMP, BROADLY WHAT WOULD THAT CHANGE. >> THE FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT THING, THE ENTITIES, NOW CALLED AN AGENCY IN THE NEW PIECE OF LEGISLATION THAT AND COUNCILOR GARDUNO, AND ALSO THE TASKFORCE, THAT THAT HAS TO BE INDEPENDENT, FULLY INDEPENDENT. IT SHOULDN'T BE PART OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH OR LEGISLATIVE BRANCH IT SHOULD BE MODELED ON THE CURRENT INSPECTOR GENERAL'S ORDINANCE

AND FULLY INDEPENDENT FROM EVERYONE. IT SHOULD HAVE INDEPENDENT FUNDING. AND IT SHOULD BE AN AGENCY THAT SUPERVISES DIRECTLY THE INVESTIGATOR, WHETHER THEY CALL IT IRO OR WHATEVER THE INVESTIGATOR IS GOING TO CALLED. NO. 1. NO. 2 ANOTHER IMPORTANT ASPECT OF THE REFORM IS TO EXPAND SIGNIFICANTLY THE JURISDICTION OF THE AGENCY AND THE IRO. THAT IS, IN ADDITION TO CITIZENS COMPLAINTS, THE AGENCY SHOULD ALSO HAVE THE POWER TO INDEPENDENTLY INVESTIGATION ALL USES OF FORCE BY THE POLICE DEPARTMENT. >> NOT WAIT FOR A CITIZEN COMPLAINT. >> WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS A CITIZEN'S COMPLAINT HAVE INDEPENDENT AUTHORITY TO INVESTIGATE ALL USES OF FORCE INCLUDING ALL OFFICER INVOLVED SHOOTINGS. ONE OF THE MISUNDERSTANDINGS THAT EXIST RIGHT NOW IS COMMISSION AND IRO HAS NO POWER TO INVESTIGATE INDEPENDENTLY OFFICER INVOLVED SHOOTINGS. THE ONLY POWER UNDER ORDINANCE IS TO MONITOR THEM.

AND WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT SHE JUST GOES OUT TO THE SCENE, IS THERE WHEN THE CHIEFS AND PEOPLE ARE BRIEFED BY INVESTIGATORS, SHE AND HER INVESTIGATORS DO NO INVESTIGATION. THEY DON'T CANVASS FOR WITNESSES OR DO ANY KIND OF INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION AND ONCE THE SCENE IS OVER THEY WAIT UNTIL INVESTIGATION IS FINISHED AND BRING THE FINISHED REPORT FROM THE POLICE DEPARTMENT TO THE POC. >> YOU HAVE MODELED SOME OF THESE IDEAS ON OTHER CITIES. CHICAGO, SAN FRANCISCO. >> CHICAGO. WE TRIED TO DO A 30 CITY STUDY AND WE ONLY ENDED COMPLETING -- MY COLLEAGUES DID A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT OF WORK ON SOME OF THE OTHER CITIES BUT IT WAS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO COMPLETE IT, BUT THE CITIES WE FINISHED WERE CHICAGO, NEW YORK, SAN FRANCISCO, DENVER, LA AND NEW ORLEANS. >> NOW, DEPENDING ON THE CITY, IT HAS IN THE FOOTNOTE IN YOUR DRAFT, SOMETIMES THE OVERSIGHT BODIES CAN RECOMMEND DISCIPLINARY PROCESSES. >> UH-HUH.

>> SOMETIMES THEY CAN'T. >> RIGHT. >> THERE IS VARIATION. SO THE IDEA THAT YOU PUT FORTH IS THE COMMISSION COULD RECOMMEND DISCIPLINARY PROCEEDINGS, THE ULTIMATE POWER RESTS WITH THE CHIEF. >> THAT IS CORRECT, AND THAT IS WHAT I RECOMMENDED IN THERE BECAUSE I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS POLITICALLY FEASIBLE TO HAVE ANYTHING ELSE APPROVED BY THE CITY COUNCIL. THERE ARE SOME JURISDICTIONS THAT GIVE THE POWER TO ADOPT SOP'S. >> STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURES. >> AND ALSO FINAL DISCIPLINE TO THE CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT ORGANIZATION, BUT AT THIS POINT I THINK IT IS MORE IMPORTANT TO EXPAND THE JURISDICTION, INVESTIGATIVE JURISDICTION, OF THE CITIZEN OVERSIGHT ORGANIZATION THAN IT IS TO GO BEYOND JUST RECOMMENDING DISCIPLINE. >> THE DOJ REPORT, IT SAYS, FRANKLY, EXTERNAL OVERSIGHT SYSTEM IS BROKEN HERE AND BUT IT ALSO POINTS OUT ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IN ADDRESSING SOME OF THE LIMITATIONS ON THE POWER OF OVERSIGHT BODIES IS THERE ARE YOUR COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENTS IN PLACE WITH THE

POLICE UNION THIS CAN LIMIT THE AMOUNT OF INFORMATION COMMISSIONERS CAN CONSIDER. >> WHAT I PROPOSED, AND I PUT IT INTO THE LEGISLATION IS THAT, A PROVISION THAT THE MAYOR WOULD BE PROHIBITED FROM NEGOTIATING ANY CONTRACT WHICH, IN ANY WAY, LIMITED OR UNDERCUT THE POWERS OF THE CIVILIAN INDEPENDENT AGENCY AND IF THEY DID SO, THOSE PROVISIONS WOULD BE VOID FROM THE BEGINNINGS. SO, IF THIS ORDINANCE GOT PASSED AND IF IN FACT THAT KIND OF LANGUAGE WAS IN, AND STILL IN THE PROCESS OF NEGOTIATING A NEW CONTRACT, WHICH IS STILL GOING ON, THEN THE NEW CONTRACT COULD NOT HAVE PROVISIONS IN IT THAT UNDERCUT THE POWER OF THE OVERSIGHT AGENCY. >> WHAT ABOUT CONCERNS THAT PERSONNEL ISSUES AT ISSUE HERE AND THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU WANT TO HAVE THE NAMES OF THESE OFFICERS, THEIR DISCIPLINARY HISTORY, SO WHATEVER OVERSIGHT BODY COMES INTO LAY CAN LOOK AT ALL THOSE. AND THERE IS CONCERN, ARE YOU GOING TO PUT EVERYONE'S PERSONNEL RECORD IN THE

PUBLIC? >> I PROPOSED IN MY PACKAGE WAS ALL OF THE SESSIONS THAT ARE BEING HELD THAT DEAL WITH INDIVIDUAL OFFICERS WRONGDOING OR ALLEGED WRONGDOING, SHOULD BE IN EXECUTIVE SESSION BECAUSE THEY ARE PERSONNEL MATTERS. THEY ARE ALL PERSONAL MATTERS. >> NOT SUBJECT TO OPEN MEETINGS. >> THEY ARE SUBJECT TO THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT BUT IT HAS A SPECIFIC EXCEPTION THAT YOU CAN GO INTO EXECUTIVE SESSION FOR PERSONNEL MATTERS. AND, IN MY JUDGMENT, THEY SHOULD ALL BE IN EXECUTIVE SESSION WITH PERSONNEL MATTERS AND TRANSPARENCY WOULD COME BY PUBLISHING ON THE WEBSITE, AFTER THE FACT, A DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF THE ALLEGATION, FINDING, SAME THING KIND OF THING THAT IS IN THE PUBLIC RECORD NOW. JUST REDACTING NAME OF THE OFFICERS INVOLVED. NOW, THAT APPROACH, I THINK, IS GOING TO BE DIFFICULT TO GET THE CITY COUNCIL TO GO ALONG WITH, BECAUSE, THE TENDENCY IS YOU WANT TO KEEP ALL THE MEETINGS OPEN BUT THE ALTERNATIVE IS, AND ONE OF THE DEALS WITH A VERY IMPORTANT

ISSUE THAT HAS NOT BEEN DEALT WITH IN THE PAST, WHAT IS CALLED A GARRITY ISSUE. IT IS A U.S. SUPREME COURT, GARRITY V NEW JERSEY, IN WHICH THE SUPREME COURT SAID THAT AN OFFICER CAN BE ORDERED AND COMPELLED TO PROVIDE INFORMATION ABOUT INTERVIEW ABOUT HIS WORK BUT THAT INFORMATION CANNOT BE USED IN ANY WAY IN A CRIMINAL CASE AGAINST HIM DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY. UNDER THE PRESENT ORDINANCE THAT MEANS THAT RIGHT NOW THE COMMISSION GETS STATEMENTS BUT YOU JUST NEVER HAVE SEEN ANY OF THE OFFICERS' INTERVIEWS, THEY ARE ONLY SUMMARIZED IN A GENERAL WAY TO US. WHAT I PROPOSED AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO CLOSING ALL THE SESSIONS, IS JUST KEEP THE SESSIONS OPEN BUT THEN -- THE CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT AGENCY'S SESSIONS OPEN, BUT THEN IF THE AGENCY NEEDS TO HEAR FROM THE POLICE OFFICER, HE WOULD BE SUBJECT TO SUBPOENA BY THE AGENCY AND THAT TESTIMONY WOULD BE TAKEN IN EXECUTIVE SESSION. >> I SEE.

WE ARE ABOUT OUT OF TIME BUT I WOULD LIKE TO STAY A LITTLE LONGER AND WE'LL TALK ON THE WEB. I WANT TO ASK YOU ONE FINAL QUESTION. YOU SERVED AS A FEDERAL PROSECUTOR FOR 25 YEARS. NOW YOU'RE IN RETIREMENT. WHY DID YOU WANT TO SERVE IN A VOLUNTEER CAPACITY ON THE POLICE OVERSIGHT COMMISSION? THERE A LOT LESS STRESSFUL >> WHEN I WAS ON THE ENVIRONMENTAL PLANNING COMMISSION WE GOT A FREE LUNCH BUT WE DON'T EVEN GET THAT ON THE POC, BUT I AM DOING THIS BECAUSE OF PUBLIC SERVICE. I DON'T PLAY GOLF AND MY WHOLE CAREER HAS BEEN DEVOTED TO PUBLIC SERVICE AND I AM CONTINUING THAT EFFORT AND THE FACT THAT I AM NOT GETTING PAID FOR IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE, ALTHOUGH MY FRIENDS THINK I AM CRAZY. >> RICHARD SHINE, THANK YOU AND STAY LONGER AND WE'LL PUT MORE ON THE WEB. >> I LIKE THE PART WHERE THE

DOCTORS ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR PROBLEM AND SAID BUT REALLY THERE IS NO ONE WHO CAN DO THIS JOB WHO DOESN'T HAVE >> POLICE OVERSIGHT COMMISSION ON WHICH RICHARD SHINE SERVED WAS THE SUBJECT OF A POLICE OVERSIGHT TASKFORCE THAT SUBMITTED ITS RECOMMENDATIONS EARLIER THIS YEAR. 11 MEMBERS OF THE TASKFORCE CALLED ON THE CITY TO ESTABLISH A NEW POLICE OVERSIGHT AGENCY, WITH MORE INDEPENDENCE, MORE AUTHORITY, ITS OWN SOURCE OF FUNDING AND STAFF. NMIF CORRESPONDENT GWYNETH DOLAND SAT DOWN WITH TWO MEMBERS OF THE TASK FORCE AS WELL AS THE POLICE UNION AND WHO INVESTIGATES ALL CIVILIAN ALAN WAGMAN IS AN ASSISTANT PUBLIC DEFENDER AND A FORMER CHILDRENS COURT ATTORNEY FOR THE STATE CHILDREN, YOUTH AND FAMILIES. HE WAS RECENTLY ON A TASKFORCE LOOKING AT WAYS TO IMPROVE

POLICE OVERSIGHT. >> PETER SIMONSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION OF NEW MEXICO WAS ALWAYS ON THAT TASKFORCE, ROBIN HAMMER IS THE CITY'S INDEPENDENT REVIEW OFFICER AND SHAUN WILLOUGHBY IS THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE UNION. VERY MUCH FOR ALL BEING HERE AT THE SAME TIME. WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT POLICE OVERSIGHT AND ON THE FIRST PAGE OF THE FEDERAL DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE'S 46 PAGE REPORT FINDING EXCESSIVE USE OF FORCE BY THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT, THE AUTHORS OUTLINED THREE MAJOR REASONS THAT CONTRIBUTED TO THAT PROBLEM. NO. 1 WAS INTERNAL, THAT THE DEPARTMENT FAILED TO MAKE STRONG RULES AND ENFORCE THEM AMONG ITS OFFICERS. REASON NO. 2 WAS THEY SAID THE SYSTEM OF CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT WAS BROKEN AND THAT ITS

FAILURES HAD CONTRIBUTED TO THESE PROBLEMS. SO LOOKING AT THAT REPORT, ROBIN, IT IS PARTICULARLY CRITICAL OF YOUR OFFICE AND YOUR PREDECESSOR AS WELL, SAYING THAT YOU HAVE SIMPLY BEEN TOO FORGIVING OF THE DEPARTMENT'S USE OF DEADLY FORCE AND THAT YOU DEPRIVED THE DEPARTMENT OF CRITICAL OPPORTUNITIES TO CORRECT ITS COURSE WHICH CONTRIBUTED TO THE OVERWHELMING PATTERN OF UNCONSTITUTIONAL USE OF DEADLY FORCE THAT WE FIND. WHEN YOU READ THAT, WHAT DID THAT -- HOW DID YOU FEEL? >> WELL, THE DEPARTMENT OF TIME FRAME FROM 2009 UNTIL DECEMBER OF 2012. I TOOK MY POSITION IN SEPTEMBER OF 2012. REALLY, I WAS ONLY IN A MY POSITION FOR A PERIOD OF FOUR MONTHS, THE SUBJECT OF THAT REVIEW. MY PREDECESSOR RETIRED FROM HIS POSITION AND THERE WERE CRITICISMS OF MY PREDECESSOR'S

WORK AT INDEPENDENT REVIEW OFFICER. >> YET THIS REPORT WAS CRITICAL SPECIFICALLY OF YOU AND IT OUTLINED A COUPLE INCIDENTS. DID THAT MAKE YOU FEEL RESPONSIBLE FOR SOME OF NO PROBLEM, EVEN THOUGH YOU WERE ONLY THERE FOR A PART OF THE TIME. >> IT WAS CRITICAL OF ME AS I AM THE PERSON WHO IS IN THE JOB AND I TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE POSITION OF THE JOB. IT OUTLINES ONE CASE THAT THEY DISAGREED ON MY FINDINGS, REVIEW OF OFFICER INVOLVED SHOOTINGS, AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THE OFFICER FOLLOWED STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURES IN IF PLACE AND THAT THAT CASE INDIVIDUAL NAMED BY NICKIE OWINGS DIED AFTER BEING SHOT BY THE POLICE, INVOLVED THE OFFICER SHOOTING AT A CAR, A CAR THAT WAS BEING DRIVEN BY MR. OWENS AT A VERY BUSY WALMART PARKING LOT ON THE WESTSIDE -- >> THEY SAID YOU INTERPRETED RULES TO FAVOR THE OFFICER AND NOT THE RULES THAT WERE INTENDED TO PROTECT PEOPLE IN

CARS. SO, WERE THEY RIGHT? WHY DID YOU MAKE THAT DECISION? >> WELL, IT WASN'T TO FAVOR THE OFFICER. I REVIEWED THE FACTS AS THEY WERE PRESENTED THROUGH THE INVESTIGATION AND THE RULES THAT WERE IN PLACE. THE WHOLE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT REPORT SPEAKS HEAVILY AGAINST SHOOTING AT VEHICLES AT ANY TIME AND ONE OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS IS THAT APD ADOPT A RULE THEY CAN NEVER SHOOT AT A VEHICLE FOR ANY REASON. AND I THINK THAT THEIR CRITICISMS OF MY ONE REVIEW OF THAT CASE, THEIR ONE CRITICISM OF MY INDIVIDUAL WORK WAS ABOUT ONE CASE WHICH INVOLVED SHOOTING AT A VEHICLE WHICH THEY STRONGLY DISFAVOR. >> ONE OF THE MEMBERS OF THE POLICE OVERSIGHT COMMISSION WHO RESIGNED IN PROTEST RECENTLY, RICHARD SHINE, TOLD US THIS WEEK THAT THE STRUCTURE OF THE POLICE OVERSIGHT COMMISSION IS SERIOUSLY DEFECTIVE IS HIS WORD, AND HE SAID THAT THE CITY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE HAD MADE THAT SITUATION WORSE BY SAYING THAT THE INDEPENDENT REVIEW OFFICER DOESN'T REPORT TO THIS POC BUT TO THE MAYOR'S

OFFICE. WHAT DID THE TASKFORCE LOOK AT AND PROPOSE FOR THE ROLE OF AN INDEPENDENT REVIEW OFFICER? >> I DON'T KNOW THAT IT SUBSTANTIVELY PROPOSED CHANGES TO THE ROLE OF THE OFFICER, SPECIFICALLY WHAT WE ASKED FOR IS THAT WE CLARIFY SOMETHING THAT WAS CONFUSED BY CITY ATTORNEY OFFICE WHICH IS THAT THE IRO SHOULD RESPOND TO AND SUPERVISED BY THE CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT BODY. KEEP IN MIND THIS IS CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT BODY SO WE WANT THAT CIVILIAN BODY TO BE MONITORING AND OVERSEEING THE ENTIRE INVESTIGATIVE PROCESS. SO, ONE OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS THAT CAME OUT OF THE TASK FORCE AND ONE THAT I STRONGLY FAVOR IS TO SEE THE INDEPENDENT REVIEW OFFICER BE SUPERVISED BY THE POC OR CIVILIAN BODY, WHATEVER THAT NEW BODY MAY BE. THAT IS A CRITICAL FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS BUT ONE OF THEM THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE CIVILIAN BODY NOT JUST LOOK AT INDIVIDUAL CITIZEN

COMPLAINTS BUT ALSO DIRECT ITS ATTENTION TO POLICY ISSUES AND PATTERNS OF PROBLEMS AND DIFFERENT PROGRAMS THAT ARE OPERATING INSIDE APD AND MAKING RECOMMENDATIONS ABOUT HOW THOSE PROGRAMS CAN BE CHANGED AND REALLY CAN'T DO SOME OF THAT WORK UNLESS IT HAS A STAFF THAT HELPS IT GATHER RELEVANT DATA THAT CAN SUPPORT THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS, SO, THAT WAS ONE OF THE STRONGER RECOMMENDATIONS THAT CAME OUT OF THE TASKFORCE'S RECOMMENDATIONS THAT WE HAVE A UNITARY SYSTEM WITH A CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT BODY AND STAFF TO SERVE ITS FUNCTIONS. >> THAT IS MORE INDEPENDENT THAN IT HAS BEEN PERCEIVED TO BE SO FAR? >> I WOULD SAY THAT WAS A SECOND VERY IMPORTANT POINT OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS AGAIN TRYING TO SUMMARIZE 18 DIFFERENT RECOMMENDATIONS, BUT ONE OF THE IMPORTANT THEMES WAS THAT WE HAVE ENTIRELY INDEPENDENT CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT BODY, NOT SUBJECT TO INFLUENCE FROM THE MAYOR'S OFFICE, ONE THAT IS NOT SUBJECT TO INFLUENCE FROM THE CITY COUNCIL, ONE THAT HAS AN INDEPENDENT SOURCE OF FUNDING THAT CAN'T BE THREATENED FOR

POLITICAL REASONS OF ANY SORT. WE WANT TO RESTORE TRUST IN OUR APD AND WE THINK THAT BY HAVING A FULLY INDEPENDENT CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT BODY THAT IS ONE WAY TO ACCOMPLISH THAT. >> ALAN, IF YOU HAVE THIS INDEPENDENT BODY, WHO IS GOING TO CHOOSE -- HOW COULD WE SELECT THE MEMBERS OF THIS OVERSIGHT BODY SO THAT EVERYONE IS PERSUADED THAT THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE TO THE PUBLIC AND NOT HAND PICKED BY CITY COUNCILORS OR THE MAYOR OR WHOEVER? WAS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE TASKFORCE SPENT A LOT OF TIME TALKING ABOUT AND THE TASKFORCE RECOMMENDATION ACTUALLY CAME UP WITH WHAT I HAVE TO ADMIT -- >> THE LOTTERY. >> -- IS A CONVOLUTED PROCEDURE WHERE THERE WAS A COMMITTEE PICKED AND THEN THE COMMITTEE WOULD THEN PICK THE MEMBERS OF THE OVERSIGHT BODY AND PRIMARY PURPOSE WAS TO AVOID EXACTLY WHAT YOU DESCRIBED, WHICH WAS TO HAVE -- AVOID A NINE MEMBER COMMISSION WHICH EACH CITY

COUNCIL MEMBER PICKING A MEMBER SO THAT THAT MEMBER WOULD BE SEEN AS RESPONSIBLE TO THAT COUNCIL MEMBER. AND, IN FACT, I HAVE HEARD COUNCIL MEMBERS REFER TO COMMISSIONERS AS MY COMMISSIONER. AND I AM NOT SAYING THAT A COMMISSIONER TAKES ORDERS FROM A COUNCIL MEMBER BUT THERE IS A PERCEPTION THAT YOU'RE PLEASING A PARTICULAR COUNCIL MEMBER. WE WERE TRYING TO AVOID THAT BUT IT LOOKS LIKE THE LAST DRAFT THAT I SAW, THEY ARE GOING TO A NINE MEMBER BODY WITH COUNCIL MEMBERS PICKING. >> SHAUN, THE REPORT SAID THAT PART OF THE BLAME HERE LIES WITH THE UNION'S AGREEMENT, THAT THE CITY IS SAYING THAT IT UNDERCUT THE POWER OF CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT AND THAT THE AGREEMENT REQUIRES, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT COMPLAINTS HAVE TO BE SIGNED BY THE PERSON WHO

IS FILING A COMPLAINT AGAINST AN OFFICER. DOESN'T THAT INTENTIONALLY INTIMIDATE PEOPLE FROM FILING COMPLAINTS. >> ABSOLUTELY NOT. PART OF THE ENTIRE PROCESS, THE VEHICLE TO STRONG CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT IS THE IRO. WHO MANAGES THE IRO, WHO DICTATES WHO THE IRO IS GOING TO BE, THE IRO, INDEPENDENT REVIEW OFFICER, IS NO. 1, EDUCATED IN RULES OF LAW, THEY KNOW THEIR JOB. THEY ARE A TRAINED PROFESSIONAL. THEY DEAL WITH INVESTIGATORS WHO KNOW THEIR JOB AND ARE ALSO TRAINED PROFESSIONALS. BY THE UNION CONTRACT THEY HAVE CART BLANCHE AUTHORITY TO NOT ONLY DO FULL INVESTIGATIONS INCLUDING STATEMENTS BUT THEY ARE AT ALL POLICE OFFICER INVOLVED SHOOTINGS. THIS IS EXTREMELY INDEPENDENT ARM OF CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT. >> THAT IS NOT WHAT THE DOJ REPORT FOUND. IT FOUND THAT THE INDEPENDENT REVIEW OFFICER RARELY FOUND EVIDENCE OF MISCONDUCT OR INAPPROPRIATE USE OF FORCE IN CONTRARY TO WHAT THE DOJ FOUND

WHICH WAS A CONSISTENT PATTERN. >> I WOULD BE WILLING TO ARGUE WITH THE DOJ WITH WHAT THEY FOUND. >> WE WOULD EXPECT YOU TO. >> YES. >> BUT DON'T YOU AGREE THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME CHANGES HERE? >> DEFINITELY. WHAT I AGREE WITH IS NOT THAT CHANGE IS NECESSARILY NEEDED. I THINK THAT IF YOU USED BOTH OF THESE ENTITIES THE WAY THEY ARE PROPERLY AND SUPPOSED TO BE USED, YOU WOULD HAVE AN EFFECTIVE POC AND IRO. I DO BELIEVE THAT MORE TRAINING, I DO BELIEVE POC NEEDS A STAFF AND PROPERLY FUNDED AS WELL AS I DO THE IRO, BUT IRO IS YOUR INVESTIGATIVE BODY OF CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT. POC CAN'T DO BOTH, THEY ARE TWO SEPARATE ENTITIES AND WHEN YOU GET CONVOLUTED BY JOINING THEM TOGETHER, THE POC IS INEFFECTIVE AND INEFFICIENT AT DOING WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING WITH THE CURRENT ORDINANCE ALREADY. >> ONE OF THE REASONS THAT DOJ CRITICIZED THE POC WAS BECAUSE IT WAS VERY LIMITED BY THE UNION AGREEMENT IN THE AMOUNT

OF INFORMATION IT COULD HAVE ABOUT AN OFFICER. THEY COULDN'T KNOW THE OFFICER'S NAME OR HIS DISCIPLINE HISTORY. IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU WILL FIGHT TO KEEP IN THE RULES? >> MOST DEFINITELY. WHEN DEALING WITH THE POC AND IRO, YOU'RE DEALING WITH AN ADMINISTRATIVE PERSONNEL MATTER. THESE AREN'T CRIMINAL CHARGES, THIS ISN'T A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION, THIS IS A PERSONNEL MATTER. >> BUT THE FACT THAT DISCIPLINE WAS DELIVERED IS A PUBLIC RECORD. >> I DON'T KNOW IF THAT IS CORRECT. >> IT IS. >> THE FACT THAT SOME WAS DELIVERED AND THAT IT WAS DELIVERED IS PUBLIC RECORD BUT WHAT THAT DISCIPLINE WAS, HOW LONG IT WAS AS TO WHY IT WAS, GARRITY PROTECTED STATEMENTS, ALL OF THE FACTS OF THE CASE ARE SOMEWHAT PROTECTED. THEREFORE, WHEN YOU TAKE THE INVESTIGATION OF THE IRO AND PUT IT INTO THE PUBLIC FORUM OF THE POC ON GOVERNMENT TELEVISION, THAT IS WHERE YOU HAVE THE PROBLEM. >> WHAT DO YOU THINK THE POC SHOULD LOOK LIKE? >> WHAT I THINK THE POC SHOULD LOOK LIKE IS A WELL-FUNDED, WELL-OILED, WELL-TRAINED MACHINE OF PROFESSIONALS WHO

KNOW THEIR JOB, WHO CAN BRING CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT TO ANOTHER LEVEL. CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT SHOULD BE DOING INVESTIGATIVE AUDITS IN INTERNAL AFFAIRS COMPLAINTS AND IRO COMPLAINTS AND STUDY OF STRUCTURES WITHIN SOP'S OF POLICE DEPARTMENTS THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY AND IDENTIFYING PROBLEMS WITHIN THE SOP'S. WHAT IS GOING ON HERE? WHY ARE THESE OFFICERS GETTING IN TROUBLE FOR CAMERAS ALL THE TIME? MAYBE THE EQUIPMENT IS NOT UP TO PAR. WE SHOULD PROBABLY TRY TO FIX THAT AS A CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT BODY. THAT IS WHAT THE POC SHOULD LOOK LIKE. THE IRO SHOULD BE COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT, SHOULD NOT ANSWER TO THE POC, MAYOR, CITY COUNCIL. THEY SHOULD BE AN INDEPENDENT BODY PAID FOR PROFESSIONALS BY THE CITY TO INVESTIGATION CIVILIAN COMPLAINTS. IF ROBIN HAMMER CALLED, SHE USES FACTS AND POLICIES AND PROCEDURES TO DETERMINE WHAT IS GOING ON. >> SO FAR APPARENTLY HAS USED THEM IN YOUR FAVOR. >> IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THE FACTS SAY YOU SHOULD BE IN MY FAVOR, SHOULDN'T IT BE IN MY FAVOR?

>> THOSE ARE IN DISPUTE, AREN'T THEY? THIS IS EXTERNAL OVERSIGHT BUT IN TERMS OF INTERNAL OVERSIGHT, I WANT TO ASK YOU, THE REPORT SAYS THAT THE DEPARTMENT'S INTERNAL ACCOUNTABILITY SYSTEM DID NOT WORK AND FORCE INCIDENTS WEREN'T PROPERLY INVESTIGATED, DOCUMENTED OR ADDRESSED WITH DISCIPLINE. THEY SAID WHAT THEY SAW STRONGLY SUGGESTED THAT SUPERVISORS WENT EASY ON OFFICERS ON PURPOSE, THEY DESCRIBED IT AS A PERVASIVE AND DELIBERATE LENIENCY. IF THAT IS TRUE, WHAT COULD RESOLVE THAT INTERNAL PROBLEM AND REASSURE THE PUBLIC THAT THERE IS INTERNAL ACCOUNTABILITY? >> WHAT IT WOULD TAKE PRIMARILY IS THE COMMITMENT FROM THE MAYOR, THE CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICER, THE CHIEF OF POLICE, ON DOWN THROUGH THE POLICE CHAIN OF COMMAND, TO CHANGE THAT. EXTERNAL OVERSIGHT WON'T CHANGE THAT. EXTERNAL OVERSIGHT CAN

POSSIBLY POINT OUT WHERE THERE ARE PROBLEMS, BUT IT IS GOING TO TAKE A REAL COMMITMENT IN THE EXECUTIVE -- THE WAY IT ITS STRUCTURED NOW, IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH IN THE CHAIN OF COMMAND. >> EVERYONE IS LOOKING AT THE CHANGES PROPOSED BY THE TASKFORCE AND PROBLEMS HIGHLIGHTED BY THE DOJ AND THINKING, THIS IS GOING TO COST A LOT OF MONEY. WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE STAFFING ISSUES AT APD AND HOW THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO GET UP TO THE 1100 OFFICER NUMBER THAT YOU HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GET TO, BUT THERE HAS BEEN SOMETHING LIKE EIGHT MILLION DOLLARS OF UNSPENT MONEY ON THOSE STAFFING ISSUES. SHOULD WE SAY, IF YOU'RE NOT PAYING THESE PEOPLE, LET'S SPEND IT ON OTHER REFORMS? >> WELL, I THINK YOU RAISE A VERY, VERY CRITICAL POINT BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT OTHER RECOMMENDATIONS THAT THE DOJ MADE WITH THIS REPORT IS TALKING ABOUT COMMUNITY POLICING.

YOU CAN'T HAVE COMMUNITY POLICING WHEN YOU'RE 350 OFFICERS DOWN. THE NATURAL ATTRITION RATE OF THE APD IS 60 A YEAR. IF YOU'RE NOT BACKFILLING THESE OFFICERS IN THE ACADEMIES, WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO YOU'LL FIND A DEPARTMENT WITH 700, 600. YOU'LL HAVE A DEPARTMENT THAT IS COMPLETELY BROKEN AND DOESN'T HAVE THE TIME TO EVEN CONSIDER OR THINK ABOUT YOUR POLICY CHANGES. >> HOW MUCH OF THAT MONEY SHOULD WE SPENT ON TRAINING THAT MIGHT HELP, YOU KNOW, RESOLVE SOME OF THESE ISSUES, GIVE YOU GUYS BETTER TOOLS. >> I THINK THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT HAS A SUBSTANTIAL GOOD BAR OF TOOLS. WE HAVE GOOD -- >> DON'T SEND US BACK TO CLASS. >> WE WELCOME ANY TRAINING THAT THE CITY IS GOING TO GIVE US, ANY TRAINING WE CAN RETAIN WILL HELP US AND THE CITY. YOU CAN TRAIN ALL DAY LONG. WE HAVE GOOD EQUIPMENT. I DON'T THINK POLICE OFFICERS, THEIR CARS AREN'T BREAKING DOWN REGULARLY. WE HAVE NICE NEW CARS, WE ARE A VERY WELL EQUIPPED POLICE

DEPARTMENT. I DON'T THINK WE SUFFERED IN THAT REGIME, BUT WHAT WE ARE SUFFERING FROM IS YOU HAVE A HUGE MORALE GAP IN THE APD AND ONE THING THAT NOBODY AT THE TABLE HAS BOTHERED TO CONSIDER IS THAT IF YOU WANT THESE CHANGES, YOU WANT THEM TO SUCCEED FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AND THE COMMUNITY, AS A PARTNERSHIP, THE RANK AND FILE NEEDS TO BE ON BOARD. >> WHOSE RESPONSIBILITY IS THAT? I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE NEW CHIEF GORDON EDEN. HE CAME ON THIS JOB AT THE WORST POSSIBLE TIME. I FEEL SO BAD FOR THAT GUY TAKING THAT JOB AT THAT MOMENT, BUT HE HAS HAD SOME STUMBLES. WHAT DO YOU THINK, ALL OF YOU, BUT I'LL START WITH YOU, SHAUN, HOW MUCH TIME DO YOU THINK HE GETS IN ORDER TO PROVE THAT HE IS THE ONE WHO IS GOING TO MAKE CHANGE, DO THIS LEADERSHIP, CHANGE MORALE AND MAKE IT HAPPEN? HOW MUCH TIME DOES HE GET? >> BREAKDOWN OF THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT DIDN'T HAPPEN OVERNIGHT. AND IT IS NOT GOING TO BE REPAIRED OVERNIGHT.

TO EXPECT A NEW CHIEF OF ANY CALIBER OR EXPERIENCE OR EDUCATION LEVEL TO COME IN AND FLIP A SWITCH AND CHANGE THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT, YOU'RE KIDDING YOURSELF. >> IS HE TOO MUCH OF AN INSIDER AND IS HUNTSMAN TOO MUCH OF AN INSIDER. SHOULD THE CITY HAVE LOOKED FARTHER AND BROUGHT IN SOMEONE FROM SOMEWHERE ELSE? >> WELL, I AM TROUBLED BY THE FACT THAT BEFORE CHIEF EDEN THINK THAT THERE WERE PROBLEMS IN APD AND TRAINING -- HE DIDN'T THINK TRAINING NEEDED TO BE CHANGED, BEFORE HE EVEN TOOK THE JOB. OBVIOUSLY THAT CONCLUSION THAT THE JONATHAN BOYD SHOOTING WAS JUSTIFIED FROM WHICH HE RETREATED AFTER THE MAYOR SAID HE WAS TROUBLED. I AM TROUBLED BY THE CHOICE OF, I THINK, HE'S A CAPTAIN NOW, DEPUTY CHIEF HUNTSMAN, TO

BE IN THE POSITION OF ENFORCING CHANGES GIVEN HOW CRITICAL THE DOJ REPORT WAS OF SWAT OPERATIONS AND SWAT SUPERVISION, WHICH IS WHERE DEPUTY CHIEF HUNTSMAN WAS WHEN HE WAS WITH THE DEPARTMENT AND DEPUTY CHIEF HUNTSMAN SAYING THAT HE DIDN'T SEE -- ESSENTIALLY SAYING, HE DIDN'T SEE ANY PROBLEMS, WAITING TO SEE WHAT THE DOJ SAYS THE PROBLEMS WERE. EVEN IF EVERYTHING WAS LEGITIMATE, THE ISSUE IS NOT JUST THE OFFICERS. THE POLICE HAVE TO BE INVOLVED AND BEHIND IT, BUT YOU HAVE TO GET THE PUBLIC BEHIND IT. AND AT MINIMUM, THE APPEARANCE IS NOT OF A MAYOR IN THE CHAIN OF COMMAND COMMITTED TO REALLY MAKING CHANGES WITH THE STATEMENT THEY HAVE MADE COMING IN AND NOW THEM SAYING THERE IS NOTHING. >> IS THE LEADERSHIP FROM THE MAYOR TO DEPUTY CHIEF LEVEL,

ARE THEY IN DENIAL? >> YOU KNOW, THAT IS NOT A QUESTION I HAVE CONSIDERED VERY DEEPLY. WHAT IS IMPORTANT FOR ME IS I THINK THE DOJ IS GOING TO SET BENCHMARKS FOR APD AND THE CITY AND I THINK THE COMMUNITY'S RESPONSIBILITY AND THE ORGANIZATION'S RESPONSIBILITY IS TO MONITOR AND WATCH AND SEE THAT THE CITY MAKES REASONABLE PROGRESS TOWARDS ACHIEVING THOSE BENCHMARKS IN VARIOUS AREAS WHETHER IT CONCERNS THE USE OF LETHAL FORCE AMONG OTHER THINGS. WE INTEND TO DO THAT, WE INTEND TO BE VERY INVOLVED IN MONITORING HOW COMPLIANCE UNFOLDS. WE ARE FACED WITH A SITUATION RIGHT NOW, THIS IS A UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY. IF YOU LOOK BACK 10, 11, 12 YEARS AGO, WE WERE IN THE SAME SITUATION IN ALBUQUERQUE IN 1997, '98. WE HAD A STRING OF OFFICER INVOLVED SHOOTINGS. WE HAD HIGH COURT SETTLEMENTS. THE CITY, THE APD AND THE COMMUNITY WERE AT ODDS OVER

APD'S PERFORMANCE. THE RESULT WAS THE CREATION OF THE POLICE OVERSIGHT COMMISSION. THAT WAS ONE OF THE MAIN SOLUTIONS PROPOSED. WE'RE NOW IN A SIMILAR SITUATION, IDENTICAL SITUATION. WE ARE GOING TO OVERHAUL THE POLICE OVERSIGHT COMMISSION BUT THE DIFFERENCE IS, WE HAVE OUTSIDE FEDERAL AGENCY THAT HAS STEPPED IN, DONE A THOROUGH INVESTIGATION OF THE DEPARTMENT THAT IS GOING TO MAKE FORMAL RECOMMENDATIONS ABOUT HOW TO IMPROVE THAT DEPARTMENT AND MAYBE WITH A FEDERAL JUDGE PRESIDING OVER THE CITY'S PERFORMANCE IN REACHING THOSE GOALS. THIS IS OUR OPPORTUNITY TO REFORM THE DEPARTMENT. AS MUCH AS I UNDERSTAND THE ANGER AND FRUSTRATION WITH APD AND THE SHOOTINGS THAT WE HAVE SEEN, WE HAVE GOT TO BE LOOKING FORWARD. AND WE HAVE GOT TO START MAKING SOME PROGRESS TOWARDS LEGITIMATE REFORM AND I AGREE WITH SHAUN, ACTUALLY, THAT EVERYBODY HAS GOT TO BUY INTO THE PROCESS AND I THINK IT IS

IMPORTANT THERE ARE GOING TO BE CRITICISMS AND THERE WILL BE CRITICISMS FROM OUR ORGANIZATION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THE CITY IS MAKING ADEQUATE PROGRESS, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, THEY NEED TO BE RATIONAL AND OBJECTIVE AND TARGET WAYS IN WHICH THE CITY CAN DO BETTER AND NOT RETURN US TO THE PROBLEMS THAT WILL DISTRACT US FROM THE REASONABLE PROGRESS. >> THAT IS ALL TIME WE HAVE THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING WITH US HERE. WE HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE CONVERSATION WE WILL HAVE ON >> WE HAVE GONE FROM A POLICE DEPARTMENT OF ANDY TAYLOR, THINKING THINGS THROUGH, BEING LOGICAL, TO NOW BARNEY FIFE, BUT BARNEY FIFE IS ON STEROIDS. >> THAT IS RIGHT. >> NEW MEXICO HAS A LONG-STANDING SHORTAGE OF

PARTICULARLY IN OUR RURAL AREAS. IT APPEARS TO BE ONE OF THE REASONS BEHIND DECISION BY THE STATE TO HIRE TWO DOCTORS WITH TROUBLED PASTS. ACCORDING TO A STORY IN SANTA FE NEW MEXICO, IT IS A GREAT READ, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT, STATE OFFICIALS PETITIONED FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO GRANT WAIVERS SO THE TWO CAN SEEK MEDICAID REIMBURSEMENTS. THAT WOULD BE DR. RALPH HANSEN HIRED IN 2009 AND BECAME REGIONAL HEALTH OFFICER AND KEITH LOVETT, HIRED IN 2012, ASSISTANT REGIONAL HEALTH OFFICER IN GALLUP. BOTH MEN NEEDED WAIVERS BECAUSE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT BANNED THEM FROM BILLING MEDICAID FOR THEIR SERVICES BECAUSE OF PAST CRIMES RELATED TO PRESCRIPTION DRUG ABUSE. STATE OFFICIALS SAY THEY SOUGHT THE WAIVERS BECAUSE BOTH MEN WERE SOLE MEDICAL PROVIDERS IN AN UNDER-SERVED RURAL AREA. LAST YEAR, STATE OFFICIALS HALTED MEDICAID PAYMENTS TO BEHAVIORAL HEALTH PROVIDERS, ON THE BASIS OF ALLEGED FRAUD AND ONE OF THOSE PROVIDERS QUESTIONED WHY THE STATE WENT TO BAT FOR TWO DOCTORS WHO HAVE COMMITTED FRAUD CRIMES. ANTOINETTE THAT IS A GOOD PLACE TO START. IS THERE A DIFFERENCE HERE? I AM QUOTING THE SPOKESPERSON MATT KENNECOTT, TO MY VIEW,

JUICE MY OPINION, SOMEWHAT PEEVISHLY MADE A COMPARISON OF FRAUD AND SORT OF LEFT OFF THE FACT THESE TWO FELLOWS COMMITTED A TON OF FRAUD. WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO MAKE >> IT IS SUCH A CONFLICT PROBLEM, AND A BIGGER PROBLEM, BECAUSE YOU START WITH THE FACT THAT WE CAN'T FIND DOCTORS TO DO THIS WORK AND THIS IS A SAD STATEMENT ABOUT NEW MEXICO. WE DON'T HAVE THE RESOURCES. SOMETIMES I THINK ABOUT WELL MAYBE MEDICAL SCHOOLS -- THEY HAVE A GREAT DOCTORAL PROGRAM BUT MAYBE IT NEEDS TO BE STRENGTHENED AND ACCOUNTABILITY -- IF YOU GET THIS EDUCATION, YOU REALLY HAVE GOT TO COMMITTED. I WAS GOING TO SAY, I LIKE THE PART WHERE THE DOCTORS ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR PROBLEMS AND SAID, LOOK, I NEED A SECOND CHANCE, THAT KIND THING, BUT REALLY? THERE IS NO ONE ELSE WHO CAN DO THIS JOB WHO DOESN'T HAVE THESE PROBLEMS.

>> IT IS INTERESTING. >> IT IS COMPLICATED. >> THAT IS A BETTER WAY TO SAY THAN INTERESTING. I FIND IT COMPLICATED AND INTERESTING THAT A DOCTOR BANNED FROM PRACTICING IN HIS HOME STATE, WASHINGTON STATE, FOR FIVE YEARS, CAN COME TO NEW MEXICO A YEAR LATER AND A GROUP LOOKS AND SAYS, I THINK WE CAN WORK WITH THIS, I THINK WE CAN MAKE THIS WORK. I DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS PROFESSION THAT YOU CAN CROSS STATE LINES. SAME TIME, THOUGH, IN ONE OF THE DOCTOR'S CASES THERE WAS ONLY ONE OTHER APPLICANT AND THE OTHER THERE WAS WEREN'T ANY OTHER APPLICANTS. WE HAVE GOT -- THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT HAS BEEN COMING TO THE FORE FOR A LONG TIME BECAUSE WE JUST HAVE A SHORTAGE OF DOCTORS ESPECIALLY IN THE RURAL AREAS. >> IS THIS THE RIGHT WAY? IS THIS THE RIGHT WAY TO ADDRESS THIS PROBLEM? IS IT THE ONLY WAY? >> NO APPLICANT. IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE THEY CHOSE THESE GUYS OVER 50 OTHER --

>> THE BIGGER ISSUE IS -- I AM LESS CONCERNED. THESE GUYS CLAIM RELATED TO THE ADDICTION THEY HAVE. BOTH OF THEM HAVE A YEAR OF CLEAN TIME, THEY ARE TRYING TO RECOVER. IF FOLKS KNEW HOW MANY DOCS AND LAWYERS AND OTHERS ARE IN RECOVERY AND WE START DISQUALIFYING THEM FROM WOULD BE GOOD. >> LET ME ASK YOU THIS, WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN TOWARDS RECOVERY IS POSSIBLE. WE HAVE ALL SEEN IT, EVERYONE DESERVES A SECOND CHANCE. THE PROBLEM IS NOT JUST THE DRUG ISSUE AND KEEPING THEM AWAY FROM NARCOTICS, YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A PERSON THAT HAS HAD FIVE TO SEVEN YEARS OF PROFESSIONAL LYING UNDER THEIR BELT. THEY DECEIVED EVERYBODY THEY WORKED WITH FOREVER, AND I WOULD LIKE TO SEE MORE FROM OUR STATE FOR PEOPLE TO KNOW HOW THIS REHABILITATION THING GOES ON THAT ISSUE AS OPPOSED TO THE DRUG ISSUE. I CAN DEAL WITH THE DRUG ISSUE. >> YOU CAN APPLY THAT TO LAWYERS, PUBLIC OFFICIALS, MOST PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE KIND

OF ADDICTIONS THESE GUYS HAVE, THEY ARE NOT EXACTLY, YOU KNOW, RUNNING THE CHOIR AND DOING EVERYTHING BY THE BOOK. IF THEY HAVE AN ADDICTION, THEY ARE WRITING FRAUDULENT PRESCRIPTIONS, I AM NOT SAYING IT IS RIGHT, IT IS ILLEGAL. BUT THIS ISSUE IS HAVE THEY TRIED TO TURN THINGS AROUND. SOUNDS LIKE THEY HAVE SOME KIND OF PROGRAM. THE BIGGER ISSUE TO ME IS THE HYPOCRISY IN SAYING WE HAVE SUCH A DERTH OF PROVIDERS, WE ARE GOING TO BEND THE RULES FOR THESE GUYS AND GIVE THEM A SECOND CHANCE, BUT YET WE ARE GOING TO CAST OUT NUMEROUS ORGANIZATIONS THAT WERE SERVING THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE IN DIRE NEED AND YET THAT SOMEHOW THEY ARE GOING TO BE HELD TO DIFFERENT STANDARD THAN THESE DOCS WHO SCREWED UP AND HAVE ADDICTION ISSUES AND WE'LL GIVE THEM A SECOND CHANCE, BUT VERY SKETCHY AUDIT INFORMATION. SOME OF THESE ORGANIZATIONS THAT THEY -- CONTRACTORS ARE MALIGNED IN A LOT OF WAYS HAD DECADES OF REALLY GOOD TRACK RECORDS. I AM NOT SAYING THEY PROBABLY MADE MISTAKES.

WHY NOT SAY LET'S FIX THIS AND FOR THE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, FRANKLY, IRONICALLY, GUYS LIKE THESE DOCS, WOULD HAVE GOTTEN SERVICE. >> IF YOU'RE IN THE MEDICAL BUSINESS, STARTING YOUR CAREER, GREW UP SOME PLACE BACK EAST AND RURAL HEALTH WAS YOUR THING. WOULD YOU COME TO A STATE WHERE LITERALLY, YOUR BOSS, YOUR SUPERVISOR, COULD BE HIRED ABOVE YOU, WITHIN TWO MONTHS OF BEING IN THE STATE AS OPPOSED TO YOU BEING HERE AND TRYING TO DO THE RIGHT THING? WHY WOULD YOU COME HERE FOR YOUR CAREER IF THESE KIND OF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO STOP THE UPWARDS FLOW OF YOUR CAREER ON TOP OF, BY HAVING THESE PROBLEMS. DOES THAT SEEM RIGHT TO YOU? THE QUESTION. IF I AM COMING OUT HERE, I AM COMING FOR A REASON. I DOUBT THE REASON IS GOING TO BE THAT IT IS GOING TO KEEP ME FROM COMING TO NEW MEXICO IS GOING TO BE BECAUSE OF SOME RECOVERING ADDICT WHO IS GOING TO BE MY SUPERVISOR.

>> IT WOULD STOP ME. I WOULD CHOSE SOMEWHERE ELSE. WHY WOULDN'T I CHOSE SOMEWHERE ELSE? >> YOU MAY NOT HAVE A LOT OF CHOICES BECAUSE BY THE TIME -- I AM WILLING TO BED, I DID A LOT OF WORK WITH THE J1 PROGRAM WHEN I WAS IN THE LEGISLATURE IN NEW MEXICO. WE HAD A LOT OF DOCS THAT CAME FROM OVERSEAS AND IN ORDER TO BE HERE YOU HAVE GOT TO WORK IN RURAL NEW MEXICO. THE MINUTE THE CLOCK STOPS, THEY ARE OUT. SO IT'S NOT LIKE YOU HAVE A LINE OF PEOPLE. I DO THINK TO TIE THESE GUYS TO WHAT HAPPENED, I DON'T THINK IS REALLY FAIR BECAUSE THESE GUYS COMMITTED A CRIME SOMEWHERE ELSE, PAID THEIR PENANCE, PAID THEIR TIME, THEY ARE BACK TRYING TO REHAB THEMSELVES. THESE ORGANIZATIONS WERE CAUGHT DOING SOMETHING IN NEW MEXICO. AT THE END OF THE DAY, WORKING THE TWO TOGETHER -- DO I THINK THE WAY ALL OF THAT IS HANDLED IS 100% COPASETIC, NO, BUT I THINK AT THE END OF THE DAY WE SHOULDN'T BE JUDGING THESE GUYS, ON THEIR PAST ACTIONS. IF THE CLEANED UP THEIR LIVES --

>> THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR TIME, GOING ON THE CLOCK ON THE WEB. OVER TO NEWMEXICOINFOCUS.ORG, CHECK THESE GUYS OUT. IT IS GOING TO BE GREAT. AS ALWAYS ALL OF US HERE AT NEW MEXICO INFOCUS APPRECIATE YOUR TIME AND YOUR EFFORT TO STAY INFORMED AND ENGAGED. CATCH UP ON SOCIAL MEDIA BY SEARCHING NEW MEXICO INFOCUS, FIND ARCHIVED INTERVIEWS AND SHOW ON OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL AND AT NEWMEIXOCINFOCUS.ORG. I AM GENE GRANT. WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK, IN