Radio Times; Rendell Administration and Little Red Riding Hood

The Franklin Institute forecast, we have some clouds still around, but partly sunny skies transforming the region. Windy, a high to 53, down to 37 as winds die down tonight. Sun that increasing clouds tomorrow, high to 51, and then becoming partly sunny for Wednesday, the high to 56 degrees, increasing clouds again. Thursday, chance of afternoon showers high to 53, 43, and windy in Setters City at 10 o'clock. We're in that lull between the Pennsylvania gubernatorial election and the changing of the guard. If the Rendell administration is as high energy as the Rendell campaign, you'd better buckle your seatbelt. I'm Marty Musco ain't in coming up on radio time today in the new Pennsylvania landscape. What are the top priorities for the incoming Rendell administration and how are they going to smooth the Republican-dominated legislature will ask John Baer. He writes about Harrisburg for the Philadelphia Daily News. Also with this is Dave Davies, senior writer for the paper. He's covered Rendell as mayor

and on the campaign trail. Stay with WHYY in Philadelphia and call us at 1-888-477-949-9 After the news from National Public Radio. From NPR News in Washington, I'm Frank Stasho. UN weapons inspectors arrived in Baghdad today. They're preparing to search numerous sites in Iraq for weapons of mass destruction. BBC's Caroline Holly reports from Baghdad. Iraqi officials are promising full cooperation as the inspectors return with unprecedented powers. The terms of their new mandate were hard for Iraq to accept, but it had no choice to spare the country war. The main headlines in the Iraqi newspapers ignore the inspectors return, but editorials urge the UN to be independent and impartial. The inspections will be the most intrusive the UN has ever conducted anywhere.

No where will be off limits even Saddam Hussein's own palaces. But Iraq consists it has nothing to hide. The task of the inspectors now is to uncover the truth. They've spoken of hundreds of sites they want to visit. First they'll be making the logistical preparations to enable the searches to start in less than 10 days time. The BBC's Caroline Holly. Bond hearings are scheduled today for nearly 100 people who are arrested yesterday in a protest at Fort Benning, Georgia. About 7,000 protesters gathered for the 13th annual demonstration against the American program that trains Latin American soldiers. The demonstration was organized by the School of America's Watch, which conducts the protest to mark the killings of six Jesuit priests in El Salvador in 1989. Some of the murderers had attended the Fort Benning training program. Israeli helicopters fired missiles at the Palestinian preventive security headquarters and caused a strip today. Palestinian officials say several buildings were destroyed. And PR's Linda Gradstein reports from Jerusalem.

Palestinian doctors said two Palestinian security officers and a TV cameraman were slightly injured in the three-hour Israeli raid. After the missile strikes in Israeli tank fire, several of the 11 buildings in the Palestinian Authority's security compound were destroyed. The preventive security service was headed until recently by Mohammed Dahlan, who had been mentioned as a possible successor to Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat. The Israeli commander of Gaza told Israel Radio that the preventive security apparatus in Gaza is, quote, a terrorist organization in every sense. Palestinian officials said machine gun bullets hit the walls of nearby apartment buildings and a nearby hospital also came under fire. Linda Gradstein and PR News, Jerusalem. The U.S. dollar gained value against the Japanese yen at the end of Tokyo business today. The last quote on the Tokyo foreign exchange had the dollar at $1.21.19. That's up half a yen from the previous close. Prices on the Tokyo Stock Exchange closed lower today. The N.K. average of 225 selected issues was down 157 points, closing at

8346. On Wall Street at this hour, the Dow Jones industrial average is down 24. The NASDAQ is down one and the S&P 500 is off one point. You're listening to NPR News. Support for NPR comes from the Annie E. Casey Foundation, helping disadvantaged children and their families connect to strong and supportive neighborhoods on the web at aecf.org. Gosty Wins, 43 in Center City at 1004. Good morning. I'm Brenda Jaret, W-H-Y-Y News. Pennsylvania Governor-elect Ed Rendell is returning from a week-long vacation following his decisive win in the November 5th election. Rendell's transition teams began forming committees and fielding tens of thousands of resumes from people wanting positions in the new administration. Rendell, transition co-chair Arthur McAdon, says the process is well underway. It will be a process that will get decentralized into various groups that will be working on various aspects of safety government, recommending both personnel for the area assigned and also

substantive responsibilities. Then it will come back up and ultimately get to Ed. As Rendell lines up key issues to attack in January, Rendell last week sent a letter to Pennsylvania's congressional delegation in Washington asking lawmakers to prevent lame-duck legislative action that would cut Medicare reimbursement rates to providers more than 2 million Pennsylvanians are covered under Medicare. While the Rendell transition team works, Governor Mark Schweikers beginning a farewell tour of the state this week, as the state legislature continues its end-of-session business, W-H-Y-Y's Jen Rehill reports. Governor Schweiker begins his sweep across the Commonwealth in Allentown on Tuesday and will end the trip in his native Bucks County. Governor Spokesman, Dave Latour. Governor Schweiker will make his way around the state and really in a way to say thank you. So many people have worked with both the Ridge and Schweiker administrations over the last eight years to really turn this to turn our Commonwealth into what

we like to call the New Pennsylvania. Meanwhile back in Harrisburg, the legislature embarks on week two of the so-called lame-duck session. The assembly must vote on any bills. Lawmakers would like to see become law before the end of the month or they will perish with the end of the two-year session. The House Republican caucus holds its leadership elections this week. No surprises expected there. The House Democrats hold elections next week amidst rumors. There could be a shake-up at the top. I'm Jen Rehill, Harrisburg. The Franklin Institute forecast clouds stepping aside for some sunshine today. A windy day high to 53 down to 37 as winds die down tonight. 43 in center city at 1006. From WHY in Philadelphia, this is Radio Times. I'm Arty Mascoane. Defying history in many decades of tradition, Ed Rendell defied the odds by winning the race for

Governor of Pennsylvania. A job he'll assume officially in January. The high-octane Democrat from Philadelphia has big plans when he gets to Harrisburg, but the state capital is not like Pennsylvania's largest city. Rendell earned the title America's mayor when he ran Philadelphia and had to make some very tough decisions. But the Pennsylvania legislature is solidly Republican. There's a Republican in the White House and today's economy is not like the giddy 1990s. We've invited two political watchers to join us today on Radio Times. They get us ready for the Randell years and joining us by telephone from Harrisburg is John Bear. He's a political calmness for the Philadelphia Daily News. Based in Harrisburg, John, nice to have you back with us on Radio Times. Good morning. Good morning, Marty. It's always a pleasure. Dave Davies is with us as well. Senior writer for the Philadelphia Daily News and he covered the gubernatorial campaign. It has been covering Ed Rendell when he was mayor of Philadelphia and Dave Nice to have you back with us on Radio Times. Good to see you again, Marty. Hello, John. Hi, David. Together again. 1-888-477-949-99. That's 1-888-477-W-H-Y-Y. John, you have written about Pennsylvania's allegendary, quote, stand

pathism. How much is Randell going to shake things up in Harrisburg, do you think? Well, I think you said it at the tease at the outset, Marty. I mean, buckle your seat belts. This is somebody who made his name in politics by being anything but stand path. I expect we'll see the same kind of thing in Pennsylvania. I mean, it's the Capitol has not seen his likes before and I really expect that it's going to be rock and roll. He's not an unknown figure in Harrisburg. That's for sure. Do you think the members of the legislature, do they respect him? Do they fear him? I don't think it's a question of fear. I mean, I think that for one thing, I mean, Republicans who hold the majority here are pretty politically adroit. I mean, that's the reason they've been in charge for so long and they recognize the popularity of Ed Randell and I don't think, I mean, despite some wolf talk and some joking behind the scenes, I don't think there's going to be sort of this obstacle that a lot of people are writing about. I think that at least initially,

they're going to give him some leeway and most governors get a six to eight month honeymoon anyway. But he comes down with this extraordinary wave of support and, you know, personal charm in popularity. And I think that he's going to have his way for a while. And Dave, you covered Randell when he was mayor Philadelphia. Translate his style of governing to Harrisburg. What do you imagine? Well, one of the sort of guiding principles of a Randell administration is pragmatism. I mean, he has beliefs and commitments and goals, but he is not above doing a deal. And in Harrisburg, getting deals done is the way policy gets done. And so I think he will get in there with both both hands, do a lot of that. He's also just very, very good at the schmoozing part of the business, which, you know, is is overrated, but can be underrated too. I mean, you will hear Philadelphia politicians who will talk about how annoyed they could get with him at times, but then in the evening, they'd see him at some event. And he would stand them up and praise them in some way

that really seemed genuine. And it softens them up. And I think he'll do a lot of that in Harrisburg. And I think he'll do it effectively. Do you think it'll work there in Harrisburg, John Bear? Well, I mean, that remains to be seen. I mean, one of the things that he's talked about is that he would go sort of beyond the tradition of governors calling in the leaderships of both caucuses and having them sit down and tell them this is the way it's going to be. I mean, he has already talked about going over the heads of leaders and going directly to rank and file. I mean, he said, for example, that he is not going to be beyond on a Monday night calling a bunch of rank and file Republicans over to the mansion to watch some Monday night football together. And I mean, that has been his style. David's absolutely right. And I expect we'll see some of it in Harrisburg. And John, how many cities did the Republicans gain in Harrisburg? I have four, maybe something like that. I mean, they have a comfortable margin now. And that was really a function of the redistricting, which was, as we've talked about before, even on this program, was really a stroke of Republican strategy that has paid off and might continue to pay off for another decade. And Dave, you again watched Rendell work city council

here in Philadelphia, but as many have said, city council is not like the Pennsylvania legislature. Are there some, as you talk about his pragmatic schmoozing abilities? Some of the skills that he used in city council, you think will work in Harrisburg? Well, I think Val help. I mean, I think they will get him more than if he didn't do it. But I don't think by itself is enough. I mean, one of the things that we saw in the elections that you just mentioned was a lack of Rendell co-tails. One of the things that people talked about before the election and a bit since is the notion that Rendell can not only kind of schmooze individual members, but if people start obstructing his agenda, that he wouldn't be beyond taking it not just individual members, but to their constituents. I mean, one, I think it was Bill Dewise, who is the minority leader of the state house said to me that no member is going to want the prospect of this roly-poly, gregarious guy, rolling his campaign bus into somebody's individual district and taking his case directly to the people. I'm not so sure that they're afraid of that,

particularly after this election. I mean, most elections are governed by local issues. The other side of it, of course, is that he is going to run into a very tough policy agenda in Harrisburg. I mean, he has big plans and he will encounter a big deficit. So the issues are going to be tough. So it's not going to be easy to just roll things the way he didn't say to council. And I do want to talk those issues, but why do you think his co-tails weren't big enough, Dave? Well, I think part of it, as John mentioned, is the fact that the Republicans had really people gave, didn't give the Republicans quite enough credit for crafting districts which suited them. I mean, the other thing is I think that most of these races are primarily local races. You know, I mean, if you look at the Republicans in Philadelphia, I mean, John Taylor, who ran way, way ahead of Rendell and his district. I mean, if people have done a good job and they've made their connections to community groups and committee people and have established a report with their voters, that will will withstand this kind of co-tail effect in the by-large. And I think

that's what we saw. And John, is there a lot of animosity between these two major parties? Well, that's the thing. Marty, in past, the group editorial election, there certainly has been, I don't think there is at the moment towards Rendell. I mean, people were not, you know, Mike Fisher was not beloved by the Republican Party. He was not somebody if you recall, they even wanted. I mean, they spent a year looking for somebody other than Mike Fisher. There was not sort of an enduring political backdrop to this election. And so, I don't think Rendell comes to Harrisburg with a great deal of post-election and animosity. I think people are more curious about him than angry at him for winning. And remember, I mean, he was picked to win literally since the primary. So, I mean, it's no surprise, he did not run a particularly harsh campaign against Republicans. And so, I mean, I don't think we're not starting off on a bitter tone. And Mike Fisher goes back to being the attorney general. Does the governor, John, have a lot of contact with the attorney general? Do they operate in different

spheres? Not if he behaves himself. If he can stay out of arms way, they really do sort of operate in different spheres. The attorney general in Pennsylvania, unlike in some other states, is not the governor's lawyer. He is separately elected in an independent office and they kind of operate, you know, they coexist more than work together. Dave, did you want to add something? Well, I was just going to mention that one of the other things, I think some people said about the, this past election was that Rendell did not work as hard for a lot of democratic legislative candidates as he might have. I mean, he certainly welcomed their support. He spoke with him at rallies. But he, I think he didn't want to come into a legislative session with people having the feel, with Republicans feeling that he had come gunning for them. And I think that also contributes to this sense of a lack of hostility at the moment. But does that also explain his pragmatism? Right, right, right. That's right. He's always thinking a step or two ahead. You have both written about Brazil as someone that Rendell is going to have to, as he has,

I guess, in the past, but going to have to deal with. Help us understand that relationship, Dave. Well, John, Brazil is the, is there a Republican that legislated from Northeast Philadelphia? He is the majority leader of the state house and a powerful figure in Harrisburg. An enigmatic guy, kind of not not at all a Rendell type, not a man of a lot of public charisma, doesn't like to be on television, particularly or grand interviews. He is sort of a guy who understands the legislative process accumulates power and wields it. He is the guy who's been largely responsible for some of the kind of ambushes that Philadelphia has encountered such as a quick Republican take over by the state of the Philadelphia parking authority, which created such animosity year-and-a-half. That was largely a Brazil maneuver. So he is a guy with a lot of power and whose power was strengthened by this past election. He doesn't have any particular history of clashing with Rendell or cooperating. I mean, they worked with each other at times when Rendell was mayor,

and Brazil was a power in Harrisburg. Relatively cooperatively, I think, although that relationship was mediated by David L. Cohen, then Rendell's chief of staff. So I think there's a little bit of, they kind of have to work this thing out. But I sense that, that Brazil is not out to make trouble for Rendell, particularly. I think that they'll probably find an accommodation. And John, you've described Brazil as the butcher of the Berg? Well, only in the sense that a light grandell, if there's something in his way that he really wants, he's not about, I mean, he's not shy about reaching for the knives. I mean, the thing that makes this marriage, that gives it some possibility, is that both of them are very pragmatic when it comes to making things happen. Brazil has more than once crossed the aisle and recruited Democrats to work with him. He did it in the school's takeover. He did it in, in, in, in, during, John, and Timonita, Philadelphia. So I mean, they both have this capacity to kind of work the other, work the other team. And I think that's going to benefit both of them.

What was the relation between Brazil and Ridge, John? It was really kind of sour. There, there was never a great deal of cooperation or love loss between the majority leader and the, and the then incumbent governor. And I think it was a function of, you know, different sort of agendas, different parts of the state, different kinds of outlook on politics. Ridge was a much more personable, outgoing kind of politician and, and Brazil is a much more behind the scenes, make things happen politician. Both of you mentioned, David Cohen, who was so instrumental here in, in Philadelphia. What job do you anticipate? Do you, do you think he'll, he'll do for Ed Rendell as governor, Pennsylvania Day? I expect he'll play an important role in the transition time of, of just giving Ed judgment and advice on who to how, who to hire and how to structure the government. But I don't think he will be a day-to-day force in the government. He's now an executive vice president of Comcast, which just got this merger with AT&T approved. He's doing big things there. He will, the governor will always call on him and he will always answer. But I don't think he'll be

that anything like the day-to-day presence he was in Philadelphia has chief of staff or even after. Does Rendell need a David L Cohen, someone to complete his personality? He really does. I mean, he really does. I mean, he loves to get into things and make quick decisions, but often there are ragged edges and it requires somebody of stature and organization to kind of make sure that any commitments can be lived up to and that all the pieces hold together. And so I think it'll be very important for him to get a David L Cohen-like figure. And I think we'll probably see that administration run fairly centrally out of the governor's office as we did in Philadelphia where the mayor's office was more prominent than it had been in previous years. And it's another name, John Timony, that's being bandied around. Do you hear anything about any job he might get? Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't necessarily predict it will happen. Timony's sort of in a job that a lot of people think doesn't quite be fit his talents and stature. And some states are organizing these sort of offices of homeland security to coordinate a lot of law enforcement and investigative functions. And I think Timony would have an interest in that.

You agree, John, from your read? Well, I spoke to John Timony on election night. I was at the Randall party at the warwick and I caught him outside a little bit and I said, hey, I'd be happy to put in tomorrow's newspaper that you're coming back and running for mayor. You just sit, get away from me. He's okay to you. John Baer, Dave Davies, our guest today on radio times, talking about Pennsylvania's new governor, Ed Randall. He takes over in gosh, the middle of January. Lots to talk about. Stay with us. We'll be right back. Phila Mel joins you in support of W-H-Y-Y. This weekend, the Phila Mel Baroque Orchestra presents the regional premiere of handles recently discovered Gloria with soprano soloist Julie Ann Baird. Handel Arias and Concerto's and Corelli's Christmas Concerto are also featured. Concerts are Friday at 8 in Doyle's Town, Saturday at 8 on Rittenhouse Square, and Sunday at 4 in Chestnut Hill, tickets at ticket Philadelphia 215-893-1999, or online at philomell.org. If you worry, if you worry, if you bother your hand, worrying whether it's justified

or unnecessary can take a lot of time and energy. Dr. Dan Gottlieb will discuss the effects of worrying on the next voices in the family. He'll also explore how we can learn how to worry less. That's voices in the family. Today at noon, right here on W-H-Y-Y, 91 FM. Monday on the Teva Smiley Show, a look at some of the hottest video games on the market and whether or not they actually encourage criminal behavior in children. Also, we'll check with our man, George Johnson, for the latest in sports, plus a conversation about finding personal meaning in a crazy world with the author of the paradoxical commandments. That's next time on the Teva Smiley Show from NPR. Tonight at 8 o'clock on W-H-Y-Y. Today on Radio Time, talking with John Bear, political columnist for the Philadelphia Daily News

based in Harrisburg. Dave Davies, senior writer for the paper, and we're talking about the Rindell years anticipating what those years will be like. There's a lot of stuff to talk about because a Rindell, of course, Samarro Philadelphia, gave us lots of fodder for discussion. Also, the campaign was fairly rich in content, and Rindell certainly offered a fair number of plans and ideas for the state of Pennsylvania. 1-888-477-9499. That's 1-888-477-W-H-Y-Y. I give us a call. Any questions or comments you might have? Rachel joins us, and she's calling us from her car. Rachel, good morning. Welcome to Radio Times. Hi, good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Sure. My question to the panel is, what can we expect from this Rindell administration as far as the malpractice issues that are forcing a lot of doctors to jump ship, jump forward or over to either Jersey or Delaware? What's the forecast for if he's going to deal with this and how he's going to deal with this? Rachel? Sure, no. Thanks for calling in. John,

do you want to take that first? Well, I think he is going to deal with it. I mean, that's one of the issues that is just sort of bubbling right behind the public debate. It is such a critical issue. And when you get into healthcare questions, everybody is affected. And I mean, I really do believe that in the next year, you're going to see some action on that because you have to. I mean, physicians are virtually refusing to be physicians because of the high cost of malpractice insurance. Something's going to be done and I'm sure it's on his plate. And we're talking about some form of malpractice reform, John. Absolutely. I mean, there isn't a way to get around from this. This is not an issue that's going to go away. He's going to have to deal with it, whether he wants to or not. And some of said, Dave, looking at the various contributors to Rindell's campaign is that the trial lawyers were rather generous to him. And is he going to step up to the plate and deal with the problem of malpractice? Well, I think he said a lot of things on the campaign, a lot of which left the impression when you tried to figure out exactly

what he thought about it. You weren't quite sure. I mean, I think it's clear that he is not going to be the aggressive, tort reform governor that Mike Fisher would have done. I think Fisher and the Republicans really believe you need to clamp down on venue shopping and place caps on non-economic damages. Rindell is not in favor of as much of that, particularly the cap on non-economic damages. This gets to be an incredibly dense issue. You've probably done a whole show on this. We have several times. I'm going to do more than one. But I think that he will kind of try and make kind of tinker with it some, but I think he won't be the kind of aggressive advocate that doctors want for really clamping down on excessive jury verdicts. Except from what we know about the public, the public for a whole host of reasons is clamoring for some kind of reform in this department. That's right. I mean, what he has said is he'll have an insurance commissioner who will work hard to get the insurance company to bring down their rates. He will try and get

the federal government to give better reimbursement to physicians so they'll be able to handle the premiums that they do have. And he has argued for certain reforms that the Republicans like. For example, establishing a committee of peers which would screen malpractice cases before they're ever allowed even to go into the system so that they would meet a certain threshold standard before they were allowed to proceed. Also, clamping down on this notion of shopping for the right jurisdiction so that you get juries in Philadelphia, which are regarded as more generous. He has advocated some of that stuff. I think the devil's in the details and it'll be interesting to see exactly where he comes down on all of it. And John, does the legislature see this as an important issue? Again, Marty, because of the publicity that it has gotten and we'll get they will have no choice. I mean, the pressure points on this issue are going to hit them. The same as they had everybody else. And I think we will see something. Rachel, thanks for calling in. You can call as well. 1-888-477-9499. That's 1-888-477-WHY. John, how big is the deficit facing the state of Pennsylvania? Well, nobody knows. I mean, the figures change monthly

depending upon what comes into the state through the variety of taxes that are out there. And the estimates run from a billion to two billion. But you don't know until you get closer to the end of the fiscal year. Almost everybody believes there is going to be one fissure or do during the campaign that was going to be more like half of a billion. But the way the economy is, it's still sluggish. The collections aren't there. It could be anywhere between one and two. And is that economy based then the proposed or the suspected deficit? Yeah, I mean, it is a function of simply what can be collected in taxes from businesses, from people from sales, from all of the sources. And when the economy goes slow, when the economy is stalled, then collections are down as well. And you know, you had an administration near the end here that was fairly aggressive in getting some money out, which is fairly traditional. You pass capital budget things, you raise the cap, you spend and spend because you're

not going to be around, you know, to have to face the music. And so we've got a situation where Randell's probably going to have some money problem. And then we're also cutting business taxes a lot. And it was sort of argued that that was critical to create a more positive economic climate in the city. But when you cut a tax rate, that means you don't get that revenue for many years to come. And so that was happening well. And there's no doubt that that the next governor is going to face a deficit. And the thing to bear in mind is that what Randell has said he wants to do will cost money. You know, the plan for property tax reform and education funding is, you know, probably a minimum of 1.5 billion. So if we add our billion dollars on top of that, that's two and a half billion. And to give people the sense of context, I mean, the whole budget is around 21 billion. So these are big numbers. And it's hard to see how Randell can really get going on fulfilling his promise of increasing state funding for education and therefore driving reductions in lower property taxes and still handle this budget deficit. And you will find a lot

of people who believe that he's going to have to ask for an increase in the state income tax. But does that also explain why slots, smokes have bit were certainly something that he was lobbying for on the country. Oh, yeah. And how do you think that's going to play out? I mean, this is a rather conservative state least I used to think so. Yeah, well, John, I'd better read on that than me, but my sense is that that the legislators are not afraid of approving slots at race tracks. In part because this Pennsylvania horse racing industry is suffering from competition from Delaware and West Virginia. And if people don't start coming back to Pennsylvania tracks, then horse, the whole horse racing industry suffers. So I think that there's probably a lot of support for getting slots at the tracks approved. I mean, that doesn't give you near enough money to do everything he wants to do, but I think probably that can be done. You think John? Yeah, go ahead, John. Yeah, I agree. Dave is absolutely right on that. Two points, though, Marty. One is that Randell near the end of the campaign started to back down on a lot of the things that he was promising. You would hear the language and Dave has actually written about this where he would talk about the need for all their kindergarten to talk about

the need for smaller class sizes. And he'd do that for four or five minutes and then in the last 30 seconds, would add a phrase like as soon as it is possible. I mean, he knows what's coming and he knows what he can and cannot deliver right away. So I mean, whatever the version that you've heard on the campaign trail, I mean, I think you can expect a scale-bound version. He may not be able to do the things that he has said he will do right away. And ask the slots. I mean, there is finally a welcoming attitude in the legislature because of the problems of the horse racing industry. But a point that Republicans, I think, really failed to make during the campaign. I heard Mike Fisher say it only once was, look, even if you get slots, it's not like on the day that we approve them, they're suddenly half a billion dollars in new revenue. You've got to get it up and running. And it doesn't mean that everybody's going to immediately leave the other states and come to Pennsylvania and start playing our slots. And we're suddenly going to be rolling in cash. That's going to take time after it passes to begin generating the kind of revenue that Randell has talked about. But to politicians like this, John, because you don't have to say you're going

to raise taxes? Well, you don't have to say you're going to raise them right away. And a key question, I think, for the Randell administration, I've asked a couple of top Democrats about this, is whether if you were advising Randell politically, is it better to come in and raise taxes in your first year assuming that everybody will then forget about it by the time you run for real action and try to keep your promises or does he validate sort of the tax and spend liberal tag that people try to put on him if he comes in and raise it right away. I said, is it political debt to raise the raised taxes right away? And most of them say no. Interesting, but it's obviously that's going to be a big test for Randell. Dave, you want anything we can talk about? It's going to say, you know, one of the things that the new incoming executive does Bill Green did this when he became mayor back in 1980s, you come in and you say, folks, this is much, much worse than any of you do. And then you roll at all these big numbers and you say it's a terrible crisis and we're all going to have to pull together and you have things like a 5% cut in your own salary and your top staff and we're all going to share the pain. And you sort of use that, the kind of media attention and

goodwill that a governor initially has to say, we're, you know, this is a big, big problem and one of the things we're going to have to do much to my own regret is raise taxes. And you blame it on your predecessor? You just say, look, yeah, some of all of the above, you know, it's, I don't blame, you know, Mark Schweiker, it was hard for him, et cetera, et cetera, but the point is we've got to pull together and solve this. Now, the interesting thing to me about this is that that's what you might have expected him to do when he became mayor. But he really does have this core belief that that that raising taxes is a bad thing to do because of the because it undermines the economic competitiveness of the city or the state. And in Philadelphia, he came in and the fact of the economic crisis gave him a sense of crisis and political consensus, which allowed him to get people to make and endorse tough decisions. And it'll be interesting to me to see whether he thinks he can do that with the state government, which I don't think he has quite the same feel for. And it's not, I don't know if the money is there to be saved even if people

were willing to make those tough decisions. You know, I mean, if you're paying 30% more than you need to for, for, for employee health benefits, hypothetically, as maybe the city arguably did was doing that. And people will differ about that. And you can provide some health benefits and save 30%. That's a lot of money. If there are similar kinds of things happening in the state government, nobody's particularly identified him yet. But I think it'll be interesting to see whether he wants to take that tack first, see if he can do what he didn't fill. Or he'll take the other approach and say, folks, it's a big problem. We're going to have to raise your taxes. And that's Dave Davies, senior writer for the Philadelphia Daily News, who joins us along with John Baer, political columnist for the Philadelphia Daily News. And we're talking about Ed Rendell, who of course won the race for governor here in the state of Pennsylvania, 1-888-477-949-99. That's 1-888-477-W-H-Y-Y. Connie joins us from Bucks County. Connie, good morning. Welcome, Radio Times. Good morning. Thank you. Sure. I had heard recently, and you guys were talking about how the attorney general Mike Fisher and Ed Rendell would work with each other. But didn't I hear that he

was just going to be appointed federal judge for Pennsylvania? He meaning a Fisher? Yeah, I thought Bush was naming him a federal judge. Do you know anything about that, John? There have been some talk about that. I mean, he was asked about it the night of and the night after the election, and he said it's his intention to serve out the remainder of his term as attorney generally, as a couple of more years. But there have been talk about him speaking and getting a federal judge. You don't think that would be a wise move? Would you? Would turn it down? Well, I mean, those are great jobs. They're job for life. I mean, it depends on your temperament. I've never heard Mike Fisher in all the years. I've known him ever say he wanted to be a judge. He's a fair active, still relatively young guy. I mean, if the opportunity comes in, it's entirely up to him, and it becomes sort of a personal choice thing. A lot of people have talked about him potentially running for the State Supreme Court, which ain't a bad job either. There's two seats coming up, one next year and one the following year. So, I mean, we'll just see. It's kind of in his,

you know, in his court. I was the misinformed and I thought it was done. Yeah, I thought he was curious. Maybe you know more than we do. You're now deputized as a official reporter for radio times, Connie. Thanks for calling me. Yeah, thanks. Bye-bye. Anything you wanted to add to today? Well, I think it was, it was really John Preselle that we were talking about cooperating with Renzel more than Fisher since the Attorney General's sort of doesn't play his, his Senate will roll. Maybe Preselle's getting a federal judge. Oh, rumors rumors rumors rumors. Let me get you back. Let me get Joseph. Right. Let me get Joseph to join us calling us from Center City Philadelphia. Hi, Joseph. Go ahead. Oh, hello. Thank you. There's an issue I just read about recently, which is it, which I assume we'll get, but I don't know whether it's been talked about Amtrak. Once I think is talking about discontinuing one of the rail, one of the trains in Pittsburgh and in Philadelphia, I think unless they can get the state to fund that, that's one issue, which I assume is going to come up in the next few months. The other is,

it's been talked about for a long time, and I don't know what of course, but Septa isn't talking about expanding into, um, to Redding. Is that, is that, is this going to be, is this, is that to pay on, depends on state funding? Is that an issue, which is in the legislature? Joseph, let me just toss that to Dave Davis to get us started. And perhaps you know a little bit about the the Septa Redding line. And thanks Joseph for calling me. You're welcome. Sure. Septa has a couple of major projects that the Cross County Metro and the School of Valley Metro are projects, which link Philadelphia to more distant suburbs and their expensive projects, which they are going to need a big piece of state funding. They'll also need big pieces of federal funding. I talked to transit folks as I was doing stories about the Rindell transition. And I think the sense was that Rindell will try to be helpful there. And I think particularly because he wants to maintain that suburban political base, which was so useful to him in both the primary and the general election. But those, you know, I mean, those, those, those important

projects that run up against the same budget promise that everything else will, but I think, I think he'll, he'll, he'll be of a mind to try and help. You want to add to that, John? I'll be to say that probably if you're talking any kind of rail service between Philadelphia and Harrisburg, I suspect that's going to improve, because of all the people from Philadelphia. We will be working out there. How much though, John, is, is are we seeing a lame duck session between now and the end of the legislature session? There doesn't seem to be much of an appetite to do anything dramatic. And I think it's in deference to the governor-elect who has essentially asked, look, don't do anything rash, help is on the way. And, and again, because of the sort of lack of bitterness, and, and because of John Purcell, who's really the guy in charge, doesn't seem to be any real energy towards doing anything that would, you know, upset the apple card at the point. And yet I, I heard something on this morning's airwaves about the pace program and, and Randell making some calls down to Washington, I guess, to ensure that, that people currently

getting some subsidies for their prescription plans don't lose any of that. Do you know anything about that? Yeah, he has been advocating for increases in Medicaid reimbursement and, right, I mean, he, I think he, yeah, he wanted some immediate action because what's happened happening with the pace program, which our senior citizens know is, is the Pennsylvania's prescription drug benefit for the, for the low income elderly in Pennsylvania. What happens is that the income guidelines tend to be fixed as people's social security payments tend to increase, they tend to move out of that, and he's looking for some quick action to keep folks from being thrown off that program. Right. Let me get Mary to join us calling us from pale. Like, good morning, Mary, you're on radio times. Hi. Hi there. I was calling because I just voted for Randell, and I thought maybe he was a man that might really get things done for energy in the, in Pennsylvania. We have those old grandfathered coal-powered plants, and I'd love to see him do something to make Pennsylvania more a model for the rest of the country and, and reducing CO2 emissions.

Well, Mary, let me ask Dave how much this was an issue in the campaign trial. I'm thinking about Mike Moral, a Green Party candidate who probably had a slightly more green environmental policy, but Dave, did Randell pick up on this? I don't recall them saying anything about it on the campaign trial at times I attended. It was, it was not a high profile issue. I mean, he did pick up kind of the bulk of the mainstream environmental endorsements, but I don't, actually it's a good question. I don't know if he has plans for the skilled coal plants. And John, we're a coal state. We've been that way for what? Couple centuries, I guess. Yeah, we have, Marty. No question. I mean, it's obviously not what it used to be, but it's still an industry and an important one. But I mean, Dave's right. I have not, I have not heard him talk about it either. You know, it's one of those things where government kind of is often reactive rather than proactive. And as we've said, he's got a fairly full agenda of things he's going to have to deal with. So I mean, I wouldn't look for anything amazing or different in that

issue, at least at the outset. Mary, thanks for calling into radio times. You can call as well. 1-888-477-9499. That's 1-888-477-WHY, talking with political watchers, John Bear, and Dave Davies about the upcoming Rendell years. Rendell, of course, the Democratic Governor of Pennsylvania. He'll be taking over in about six weeks or so. 1-888-477-9499. Call us. We'll be right back. Fork Restaurant is a proud supporter of radio times on WHYY. Fork, celebrating its fifth year in Old City is now serving lunch Monday through Friday. The menu features a variety of salad sandwiches and seasonal entrees, more information available at forkrestaurant.com. On the next fresh air, we meet two of the funk brothers, the musicians who help create the

Motown sound. They're the subject of the new documentary standing in the shadows of Motown. Join us for the next fresh air. This afternoon at 3 and again tonight at 7, here on WHYY91FM. In 1553, the scientist and theologian Michael Servetus wrote a book. The church was furious. It ordered every copy burned right along with Servetus. But three copies survived their author and took on a life of their own. We'll hear the story of this man, his book, and the ideas that cost him his life on the next Todd Munchow. This afternoon at 1 on WHYY. Dedicated to the fight against cancer, Fox Chase Cancer Center and Virtua Health join in supporting WHYY and in bringing advanced cancer care to South Jersey through the Fox Chase Virtua Health Cancer Program. This is Radio Times, I'm Marty Moscoain.

And if you're just joining us, we're talking with John Bear, political columnist for the Philadelphia Daily News based in Harrisburg and Dave Davies, senior writer for the Philadelphia Daily News and we're talking about Ed Rendell, the transition from Governor Head of the Democratic Party to Governor of Pennsylvania. Some open lines here on Radio Times and John Bear always gets extremely upset if I don't have a full bank of calls here. This is 1-888-477-9499. That's 1-888-477-WHY. John takes us all very personally. Well, Marty, while we're on that topic, let me just add, I mean, one of my biggest, you know, personal things is sort of the lack of involvement in politics and government that most people have. And not a lot of people have talked about this. Even in this election, I want you to know, we had the lowest state-wide turnout ever for an open seat for governors ever. Since we've been able to elect governors who served two terms,

then there've been the last five elections. This is the lowest turnout and this is despite the fact that because of motor voter and other efforts at registration, we also currently have the highest voter registration in state history, 83% of people who are of voting age are registered in Pennsylvania. 45% of them came out to vote statewide. And, you know, I mean, it's just people, people don't have any qualms about complaining about their government and complaining about their taxes and complaining about their services, but just for whatever reason refuse to get involved. But you think that says something about Pennsylvania, John, or do you think it's something about state government, you know, state legislatures, governor jobs across the country? You think there's something distinctive about Pennsylvania? Well, as usual, Marty, you're prescient. It isn't Pennsylvania. It's nationally because the other number that I'd like to throw around is that the percentage of people who are eligible to vote, in other words, everybody over-voting age, the turnout drops

to 37.6% in Pennsylvania. But nationally, the numbers 37.3% were actually a little bit better than the rest of the country. Something to grow? Something to grow. David, let me get you to speak a little bit about something that you wrote about having to do with Philadelphia's relationship with the new governor. And of course, the rest of the state will be watching to see if Philadelphia gets any special goodies that the rest of the state doesn't get. How is Randall going to play that out, do you think? Well, he certainly has to be careful. I mean, you know, folks from Philadelphia are excited that we have the first Philadelphia mayor in the governor's mansion in what nearly a century. But one sort of Harrisburg veteran I talked to about this that, you know, people remember when Jimmy Carter was elected, all the governors were so excited. We finally have a governor in the White House who understands our needs. And the first thing he did was to cut federal revenue sharing states. I mean, people are burdened by the institutional interests that they serve. And Randall, apart from the fact that he can't be perceived as favoring Philadelphia,

just has many, many, many other demands on his time, attention, and resources. If you read the Unionville Harold Standard, which is the from Fayette County today, there's a story about they're all excited. They're going to be going to talk with Randall and they describe it as his first presentation on a policy issue since the November 5th election. It's about a big road project in Fayette County and Southwestern Pennsylvania, which the Mon Valley Expressway, which John has heard of, people around here probably haven't. But it's, you know, it's a depressed colon steel area. And this has seen as a key to economic development. And on the campaign trail, Randall enthusiastically supported this. This is just an example of the many, many, many ways he's going to have to serve a whole lot of other interests and places. I will say, though, that I mean, in a lot of ways that are sort of under the radar, it will be helpful to Philadelphia. I mean, the governor makes a lot of appointments to boards that affect Philadelphia, the Convention Center Board, the Delaware Authority, Port Authority, and PICA, the State Financial Oversight Board. If people are more sensitive to Philadelphia's needs in those positions, and more important,

if they have a governor who can exert some influence, again, not in a major public way, but in sort of a quiet, less direct way. I think that'll be helpful to the city. Let me get John to join us. And he's calling us from his car. Whoops, we missed John. Let's get Don to join us. And Don is calling us from Swarthmore. Good morning, Don, you're on media times. Good morning. We've got a big problem in Philadelphia with the Convention Center. Nobody seems to be able to solve the labor problems. Is Ed Rendell going to help us get that done because John Street doesn't seem to be able to? Well, let me toss it back to you, Dave. And then, John, I want to get you out of, I'm wondering how that's playing out in Harrisburg. But Dave, Ed Rendell, say good day. I've talked to Rendell about this within the last two weeks, and he says, you know, it's a big problem. I mean, the fact is that the carpenters who are regarded as that, you know, the one obstacle here have a binding collective bargaining agreement for the next two years, but he's going to work on it. There have been talks within the last few days, which Mayor Street has been involved in. And I think there is some prospect that this might get resolved. But I think it will be tough. And the fact is that I think that if it doesn't get resolved,

then the center is not going to get the expansion funding that they want. And this is expansion funding, John, that comes from the state legislature. And I mean, actually, if they can, if they can move towards a resolution on that question, there is money there because the rigid administration, one of the last things that did was raise the cap on economic development assistance funds and unlike prior administrations, which usually just scrape the barrel clean when they leave, they didn't have time to spend it all. So there is going to be some money available if Rendell and others can get an agreement with the carpenters. There may be. And in addition to that, I suspect Rendell is going to raise caps even further and allow more borrowing and more bonding so that the other places around the state can benefit from this sort of reinvigorated, left-to-left reinvesting. And that's the way to get stuff for Philadelphia gives stuff to every place else. Sort of spread the money around you, Creed. Yeah, yeah. One final thing to mention on the convention center is that among Ed Rendell's biggest contributors are the construction

trades who are involved in this as they were to John Street. But he has a strong interest in trying to get it to get it resolved. And I think he'll work on it. Well, speaking of contributors, let me go back to you. John Bear and then we'll get the rest of our callers to join us as well. And as we all know, Rendell was able to get just gobs of money for his gubernatorial campaign. But he also talked about the need for some kind of campaign finance reform. Do you think Johnny's going to do anything about that? I'd be surprised only because Republicans in the state have been very effective in raising money. And there's nobody who's been more affected than him. I mean, the current system benefits both sides. I don't know who would advocate reform. Right. Rendell has said he would. I mean, we asked him about this. And he has always, for the last past many years, while raising money's money by the barrelful, decries the system and says how he hates it. And as Democratic National Committee chairman, he did enthusiastically support the McCain fine gold campaign finance law as he was raising God's money. As he was raising lots of

as he was picking up checks. I mean, you could just see this cash like bulging out of his pockets. And he has said that as governor, he would would he will strongly advocate a series of campaign finance reforms in Pennsylvania. We'll see. We'll see you holding your breath, John. How much he, Marty, he also said how much he hated negative advertising while it was tagging feature of the peak up and down the street. And how's the food in Harrisburg, John? It's going to get better. There's already a new Rendell sandwich at his favorite little diner, the spot right downtown. And I mean, actually, Harrisburg has had sort of a restaurant Renaissance in the last couple of years up and down Second Street. There are half a dozen great places that have been open and serving and are waiting for Eddie. All right. And what's that Pittsburgh sandwich that you don't even want to know? Amani brothers is is maybe we think somebody lost a bet once and and had to eat one of these things. I mean, it's a sandwich that has coleslaw and french fries on it. I don't know what they're saying. Along with along with meats that have been grilled, right? I mean, sort of it's more of a red meat, coleslaw and french fries.

It must have come out of that air in Pittsburgh when everything was under smog and like what they were doing. I don't know. You're not running for office, John, because that just killed your chips. Stay what? One, eight, eight, eight, four, seven, seven, nine, four, nine, nine. Don, thanks for calling in. Let me get Mike to join us. He's calling us from his car. Mike, good morning. Welcome to Radio Times. Good morning. Go ahead. You're on the air. I wanted to talk about the development of the waterfront area in Philadelphia, which is another big concern for us. It's been ongoing for a lot of years. Rendell has talked about, you know, possibly, you know, putting in riverboat gambling, supporting that. What do you think? Are our chances of, you know, getting something pushed through soon? Do you mean in terms of riverboat gambling? Uh, riverboat gambling or just, you know, the development in general, getting something there. Yeah, I wonder whether the, the Philadelphia waterfront is, is of high concern to the governor of Pennsylvania. Do you think so, Dave? Well, this is one of the things where I think if there's one thing that Ed Rendell has always believed in and will continue to work hard on its economic development and the sort of what the, the joke was he, he never saw a project he didn't

like. And when I saw him on the campaign trail in all kinds of places throughout the state, he would, he would say to them, if you have an economic development project and there's some regulatory approval you need or a small grant or a pen dot project that's bogged down that would make a difference, don't call pen dot call the governor's office. I want to know about it. And I think that we'll see a lot of that. And I think if there is an economic development project, uh, and I think the Philadelphia waterfront fits just as much as any, any place else, um, he'll do what he can to help make it happen. Riverboat gambling is a much bigger kettle of fish. And I think that, uh, the state's probably going to proceed very slowly and cautiously in that area. You want to add to that, John? Uh, only that. Uh, he's not only, I mean, he's, he does support casino gambling, Riverboat gambling, but he also is backing off of that. I mean, he's even backing off a little bit on any expansion now saying that once we get slots before I would expand that or go to other gambling, I'd ask for studies on the sociological impact, on the impact, on the lottery and all of that. So I mean, I think once his feet were in this, he realized sort of the, the, the statewide

aversion to, to a bigger gambling efforts, including Riverboat and, and he seems to have walked away from those. Let me get Patrick to join us, uh, calling us from his car. Good morning, Patrick, you're in radio times. Uh, good morning. I apologize. This has been discussed, but I was wondering, um, what William Cohen's ongoing role is going to be. Uh, you mean, David, how long? David, I'm sorry. I apologize because I think William Elkone was in the Clinton administration. Republican from Maine. And I thought, wow, what do you know that? Maybe Patrick knows something we don't, we'll get Patrick and Connie together to, uh, he'll, he'll, he'll be an important advisor in the transition effort, but we'll probably not play at any kind of day to day role. Certainly, we'll not go to work for the administration. He's got a pretty full play to himself. Yeah, although, let me just, uh, David, let me run this by you. The, uh, you know, one of the things that, that Bob Casey had after he became governor when he had real trouble, uh, we would see the return of James Carville. He came back to help out, uh, in the special election of Harris Woffer. He came

back to help out on tax reform. Do you think David L would, would be free enough that if there is a real crisis, he would have more of a role than, than picking up the phone a couple of times a week? Well, if there's a limit on what David Elkone can do, we haven't found it yet. I mean, he seems to always be able to, to add another project. And you're right. I mean, after he left, uh, working for Rendell as chief of staff, he was heading a, one of the biggest law firms in town. And when, when Rendell needed him, for example, to get, uh, a, a tax lien sale, a big controversial issue through city council, he called on David and David jumped right into help. And so I think, yeah, if he, if he calls on David, David will do pretty much what, what he can. Uh, I just wonder maybe there is a limit. Patrick, thanks for calling in. Let me get Terry to join us. Terry calling from Philadelphia. Good morning, Terry. Hi. Good morning. Morning. Um, I's glad to hear that Ed Rendell strongly supports replacing judicial elections of appellate judges with a merit selection system. What do you think he'll do about it? Yeah. John, what do you think?

Again, that's one of those issues that he does support. Um, I think he would like to see merit selection, um, but it is, I would think fairly far down the list. Um, if we can get a couple of more, there's some crazy judge in Pittsburgh that's now going through some judicial disciplinary action being drunk on the banter. I mean, uh, if we can get a couple more. Two more prime decisions like that, uh, maybe we can get it going. But, uh, yeah, he supports it. Yeah, it could happen. Again, I don't think it's going to happen right away. Yeah. What do you think, Dave? We know that I think the last time this was undertaken seriously was after, uh, Bob Casey senior became governor back in, I guess we put 87, 88, um, 87. And, and, you know, I think there's sort of a kind of a state government sort of has the kind of political energy for only so many big reform initiatives. And, and if this becomes one that maybe we could make another run at it, I don't, I don't, you're right. And both Fisher and Rendell did endorse, um, did endorse merit selection, but I don't see any signs at the moment that you haven't quite prepared to make it

the issue. And that's going to, it's going to require a big push to, to make it happen. Terry, thanks for calling in a radio time. Just a couple of minutes, uh, left John and Dave. And I just wanted to touch on a couple of issues. Uh, both of you had mentioned property taxes and whether you think John bear, that's another one of these issues. It's been kicking around for some time now, whether, uh, Rendell and the, and the Republican legislature is going to pick up on that. And as we all have learned over the last couple of years, it's a very complicated, uh, reform system. But do you think that's going to have any legs at all? It's huge. Uh, and it has to because he's, he's made a promise. I mean, he has said he'll call a special session on this issue and not let legislators leave in July until they, until they have come to some resolution. What actually gets done, I suppose will be some amalgam of different proposals that are out there. Um, that, um, I mean, I, I can't see a, a complete overhaul in such a short time. Uh, we've tried for 30 years to do something on this. And, uh, I mean, unless Rendell really wants to be, you know, America's governor, um,

I, I, I, rise to be able to, to really turn the thing around. And in Philadelphia, Dave, the, the owner's tax is the wage tax over the property tax. So it's, right. And so, right in some respects, it's sort of, it's the wrong kind of reform for Philadelphia's needs. I mean, but it is a huge issue. You know, I mean, if you look at what he's talked about, he's talked about finding a billion and a half in new dollars of new dollars to, to raise state spending on education, uh, and force property tax reductions. And it's hard to imagine how, in addition to tackling the, this deficit, which we will have to do immediately, he could find all that new money in a form, which would allow anybody at a local level to actually reduce their property taxes. I mean, even if he's able to point to some, you know, reforms that save money, can he, can he be sure to be done immediately? I mean, and as John pointed out, in slots at the race tracks are, are, are about 500 million of that, and it's not going to come right away. I mean, so it's hard to imagine how he's going to deliver on this in any way that's convincing quickly. We had a call early on, but it didn't seem like appropriate time to raise it,

but let me toss it to you, uh, John Bear, uh, caller once Randell to be president of the United States. Uh, do you think he has national aspirations? Well, whether he does or whether he doesn't, he's going to be tagged with them. I mean, I think a few days afterwards, there were three names mentioned in this void of national Democrats, uh, Governor Gray Davis in, in California, Hillary Rotten Clinton in New York and, and mayor, or governor-elect at Randell. Um, I think he foregoes any sort of, uh, you know, work the first term, but look, um, in the middle of his second term, you're going to have an open seat in the White House. If he can work the Philadelphia Miracle into the Pennsylvania Miracle, he's absolutely got to be considered as somebody for national office. You agree, Dave? Well, you know, I remember asking Randell in 1993 when he was sort of at the height of his national popularity because of his work as mayor. If he thought he could ever become president, he immediately said, no, I said, why? He said, because I'm Jewish. He said, well, have an African-American president or one president before we have a Jewish president. He seemed to be ruling it out. I asked him the same question in recent days. He was less, you know, kind of less categorical about it,

but he said he's got to do his job and that's the way you get to get ahead. Well, Dave Davies, John Bear, always fun to have you together on radio times talking about the state of Pennsylvania. Thanks a lot. Thank you, Marty. You're welcome. Have a good day. I'm Marty Moscow. And you're listening to WHYY FM Philadelphia. You're NPR. You're, what are we? And members supported NPR station serving Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Delaware. And do stay with us for hour two on radio times today. Talking with Catherine Ornstein, author of a new book called Little Red Riding Hood Uncloped. And it's not just for children, that story. Let me steer you over to our website, WHYY.ORG and the WHYY needs to replace its aging antenna. And there's also some information on our website about how you can help to support this one at WHYY.ORG. The Franklin Institute forecast for today, cloudy through mid-morning, then it looks like it will have partly sunny skies

today, windy with a high of 53 degrees. Tomorrow, sun followed by increasing afternoon clouds, high of 51 and for Wednesday becoming partly sunny, high of 56 degrees. Penn presents Coral Series, opens at the Irvine Auditorium on Saturday, December 14th at 8 p.m. With the old male 12-voice Shataclair, performing its Shataclair Christmas, a program of traditional holiday music. Celebrating their 25th anniversary, Shataclair, a full-time classical vocal ensemble in the U.S., is known for their distinctive interpretations of vocal literature, for details to 1-5-8-9-8-3900 or at PennPresents.org. PennPresents supports WHYY. It looks as if adults have stolen the story of Little Red Riding Hood and turned it on its head.

Using current advertising, Little Red is a seductive woman wielding her powers on the hapless wolf. Not exactly what the brother's grim headed mind when they wrote their fairy tale nearly 200 years ago, but those brothers are not the original authors of this story. A Marty Moscow ain't in coming up on radio times today, the many stories of Little Red, her grandmother, and the wolf. From a cautionary tale about the dangers of the court of Louis the 14th to SNM pornography, our guest is Katherine Ornstein, author of Little Red Riding Hood Uncloked, Sex Morality and the Evolution of a Fairy Tale. Stay with WHYY in Philadelphia, and call us, lines open at 1-888-477-94999. First news from National Public Radio. From NPR News in Washington, I'm Frank Stasho. Chief United Nations

weapons inspector Hans Blix has arrived in Baghdad, accompanied by an advanced team of inspectors. He's also accompanied by the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, Muhammad El Baradi. The team is preparing to relaunch the search for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and PR's Kate Seely has more. Following Iraq's acceptance of a new UN resolution, weapons inspectors are back in Baghdad after an almost four-year absence. They'll be laying the groundwork for what are expected to be the most intrusive inspections of Iraq ever, including searches of President Saddam Hussein's palaces. Blix is due to whole talks with Iraqi leaders, while his advanced team opens offices and prepares for the start of preliminary inspections on November 27th. Iraq has said it plans to cooperate fully, however, an editorial in the state run Al-Faura newspaper today urged inspectors to respect the country's dignity and national security. Kate Seely, NPR News, Beirut. The U.S. military says Allied warplanes have bombed Iraqi defense systems in the northern

no-fly zone today. Officials of the U.S. European Command say planes attacked after Iraq fired anti-aircraft weapons at them during routine patrols. U.S. and British aircraft patrol the northern no-fly zone often, American planes, fly fighter and bombing missions. British aircraft do risk connoisseurs. Iraq considers the patrols a violation of its sovereignty. A former Italian Prime Minister has received a 24-year prison sentence for ordering the Mafia to kill a journalist in 1979. Nancy Greenley's reports from Rome. The appeals court-backed prosecutor's arguments that the 83-year-old Julio Andriotti conspired in the shooting death of Mino Pecarelli. The prosecution maintained that the journalist planned to publish an article damaging to the veteran politician. The contents of the article were never revealed. The seven-time Prime Minister, often dubbed Mr. Italy, was a political powerhouse in the post-war years. The decision shocked many in political circles. In 1999, a lower court had cleared Andriotti in a case largely based on the testimony of a Mafia turncoat.

Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, who is on trial for bribing judges, blasted the ruling as evidence of a judicial system run amuck with partisanship and hatred. Andriotti's lawyers planned to appeal the ruling. For NPR News, I'm Nancy Greenley's in Rome. The Supreme Court today agreed to consider a case that broadens its review of death row appeals to include shotty legal defense. The Court could use the case of a death row inmate in Maryland to clarify the threshold for ineffective counsel claims in capital cases. Two justices have already publicly criticized the quality of death penalty lawyers. Stock prices are mixed at this hour on Wall Street. The Dow Jones industrial average is down 32 points. The Nasdaq is up over four. You're listening to NPR News. Support for NPR comes from Liberty Mutual, providing business, home and auto insurance since 1912. Information available at www.libertymutual.com. Turning into a partly sunny day, high of 53, 44 in center city and windy.

At 11.04, good morning. I'm Brenda Jurratz, W-H-Y-Y News. A jury is in day two of deliberations today at Rabbi Fred Newlander's murder for higher retrial and freehold New Jersey. The rabbis accused of arranging his wife's murder in the couple's Cherry Hill home in 1994. The defense says tried to cast doubt about the prosecution's chief witnesses. The seven men and five women deliberated about six hours Friday. The jury asked the court to read back testimony from Newlander's daughter who testified she was on the phone with her mother the night she was murdered. Rebekah Newlander rock off testified Carol Newlander told her quote the bathroom guy was at the door. Len Jenoff admitted he was that man and that he murdered Carol Newlander after being hired by the rabbi to carry out the killing. There have been no questions from the jury so far today. The New Jersey legislature is taking aim in Trenton today at two gun-related measures. W-H-Y-Y's Eugene Saun has that report. Two gun-controlled bills are scheduled for action in the New Jersey Assembly. One is relatively new. It would establish a ballistic database. Under the bill all new handguns sold in the state would be fired once and the

ballistic pattern created on bullets and casings would be stored in the database that prosecutors and police could use to trace weapons used in crimes. The second measure is the long-debated smart gun bill. It says that once guns that can prevent unauthorized users from firing the weapon are commercially available only so-called smart handguns could be sold in New Jersey. This measure has passed the New Jersey Senate several times but is yet to pass the assembly. Prototypes of such guns are in development but no gun manufacturer offers them yet. In Trenton, I'm Eugene Saun, W-H-Y-Y News. Pennsylvania's legislature is back in session this week for the final two weeks before current proposal proposals must pass or die automatically if no action is taken. Governor Mark Schweiker takes a farewell trip across the state to starting Tuesday spokesman Dave Latour. What we want to do is what the governor wants to do is make one real last push around the state to say thank you and of course there will be some announcements and surprises along the way.

Those announcements are expected to include benefits for community and economic development, new homeland security measures and crime prevention efforts. 45 degrees in center city Philadelphia a windy day. It's 11.06. From W-H-Y-Y in Philadelphia, this is Radio Times. I'm Ardi Moscoane. We're all familiar with the brother's grim story of Little Red Riding Hood, a cautionary children's fairy tale of a little girl, a wolf, a grandmother and a hunter. Written at the beginning of the 19th century, it warned children to be obedient, to stay on the straight and narrow path. Well, if that's the only version you know, then you'll probably be surprised to learn that the story was first written down several years earlier, actually several centuries earlier, as a cautionary tale for adults and especially for women. It warned them about the dangers of the court of Louis the 14th of France, where noblemen were known for their predatory and lascivious behavior. My guest on Radio Times today, Catherine Oranstein

is not surprised about how different these stories are. She says that fairy tales are malleable, often rewritten and reinterpreted in different eras to reflect changing societal concerns and mores. Her new book is about the evolution of the Red Riding Hood story. It's called Little Red Riding Hood Uncloked. And besides these two versions, it's been the inspiration for a cartoon, for poetry, for advertisements, even for pornography. Catherine Oranstein is a freelance writer, lives in New York City and joins us this morning on Radio Times. Nice to have you here. Good morning. Thanks for having me. You're welcome. One, 888-477-949-9. That's one 888-477-WHY. You write the fairy tales are malleable by their very nature. But do you think this story is more malleable than most fairy tales? That depends what you mean. There are certainly many, many versions of this fairy tale and also Cinderella as a competitor. In my personal experience, I've seen this one appropriated not only, not only retold as a story, but appropriated in advertisements and jokes

and billboards. And because it has so many running themes, so many hidden themes as well, I find that it's one of the most appropriated fairy tales. Well, let's talk a little bit about the Charles Perot version. And like all fairy tales, it has these stories have their beginnings in folklore and other probably oral traditions. But this was a written down story that he wrote to help us understand what he was saying. Okay, well Charles Perot first penned Little Red Riding Hood in 1697, or really in 1695 was his manuscript, along with seven other stories, published in a collection, Tales of My Mother Goose, making that name forever famous. Those stories, they weren't for children, and fairy tales were really not for children in the 17th century. They were stories that were told at court or in the Parisian literary salons, and they often concerned the social and sexual politics of the day. And Little Red Riding Hood was a chastity parable, a seduction story, a girl or a young woman climbs in bed with a wolf, she strips off her

clothes, climbs in bed with a wolf, and dies. And the story came with an explicit verse moral. It went like this. Little girls, this seems to say, never stop upon your way, never trust a stranger friend, no one knows how it will end. As your pretty, so be wise, wolves may lurk in every guise, handsome they may be in kind, gay and charming, never mind. Now as then to simple truth, sweetest tongue has sharpest tooth. And the wolves, of course, were the lords of the court. Yes, in the 17th century, to see the wolf was French slang for losing your virginity. And it's a metaphor that we actually preserve today. We call men who chase women wolves. Well, you also talk about this time as both an age of seduction and of institutionalized virginity. So you had this tug of war between women wanting to remain chaste, and of course, men who wanted to deflower them. Yes, it's a really interesting paradox, an erotic paradox.

You know, the court of Louis XIV is famous for its seductions. He had moved the court outside of Paris to his royal estates outside in Versailles, and it had become this sort of whining and gaming and sexual exploits had become very commonplace. It was a way of distracting the nobles from scheming against the monarchy. And the king himself kept a series of royal mistresses, public official mistresses, which of course didn't guarantee his fidelity even to them. He was so notoriously electrous that at one point the queen actually, well, his public mistress complained to the queen. And the queen dismissed all the courts' maids of honors and replaced them with elderly matrons. But at the same time, obviously, you know, this is an age when chastity was very valued for at least for unmarried women. Anyone who's seen a period film or read about the era will know that girls were often raised in convents. By law, father could keep his daughter in a

convent until the age of 25 or marriage. The children were considered minors, you know, regardless of their age or even of their marital status. And this is because of the importance of arranged marriage. It was the primary means by which a family could elevate itself both in terms of its social status as well as financially. And therefore, the virginity of daughters was was prized. It was a premium for arranged marriage. And so you have this very interesting erotic contradiction. And was this a popular story at that time? Charles Pra was a central figure. He was an important and central figure at court. He was president of the Royal Academy. And he was essentially a spokesperson, sort of Latter-day Ariflecher for Louis XIV. So these stories, they were actually dedicated to the King's niece, Mademoiselle. They would have been read all throughout the aristocracy. So yes, it was an important story. Well, there's another story in here. And this one was just a delight to read only because it's so earthy. And this is the grandmother's tale, which is another variation

on this little red riding hood theme. And perhaps one that even predates the Charles Perot story? Yes. The Charles Perot's first published version of Little Red Riding Hood in 1697. That's the earliest literary version of the story that we have. But folklorists trace the origins of stories, the same way that scientists trace evolution, the origins of species, by looking for common traits, common elements, collecting many versions of a story, and then dating and comparing, and attempting to recreate a lineage. And using this methodology, folklorists have come up with an oral tradition. It's actually still in circulation. And it's thought to predate the story, Lippertishapurun Rouge that Charles Perot told. And that story, it's surprisingly different. It's body. It features cannibalism, a strip tease, defecation. It's very body. And also, as a female reader, it's particularly interesting to me because it teaches a very different lesson.

It has a different ending in which, rather than the girl being tricked by a wolf, it has the girl tricking her attacker. And therefore, the end result is the message that's much more in powering as a female listener or reader. And what she does is literally to leave the wolf's bed to say, well, I have to go to the bathroom. I mean, it's so earthy that way. She tells the, it's not a wolf, it's a bazoo, which is described as either a werewolf or some sort of demon. And she takes off her clothes and she climbs in bed with this demon. It's often understood as, you know, by folklorists, it's sort of a nefarious sexual encounter, perhaps marking her coming of age, something like that. And once in bed, she realizes that she's in danger and she quickly comes up with this trick to get out. She says that she has to go to the bathroom. And the bazoo says, do it in the bed. And she says, no, no, that will smell bad. So the bazoo ties a string around her ankle and lets her out on this leash. And she goes out the door, but she ties the string around a tree. And so when the bazoo

tugs the string, he doesn't know that she's making her escape. And then, of course, there's a very different ending and a very different story about a little girl. It's very, it's almost a, you know, has a heroin triumphant. It's sort of an empowerment story. And it really seems rather than a story of female folly disobedience or, you know, promiscuity being punished by being eaten by a wolf or rescued by a hunter, we have this story of female independence and empowerment. And, you know, possibly the reason for that is this was a story that was very likely shared among women. And, you know, when women told tales, perhaps they told the, the morals of those tales, they recreated them and told them a little bit differently. Well, there's an interesting line here. There's a little cat in the story as well. And as a little red is, is eating the cat. So she's a slut who eats the flesh and drinks the blood of her granny. And it's sort of a curious commentary from a cat on what's going on here. Yeah, that's a, that's a line that occurs in one collected

version of the tale. Just so that that listeners know what's going on. In, in this story, the little girl she meets the bazoo or the young woman, perhaps, it's unclear what she is. And he beats her to grandmother's house. And instead of eating grandmother himself, he cuts her up and presents her and he decants her blood into a bottle. And so when the girl, red riding hood, who is not called red riding hood in the oral version, she's just a girl. When she comes, he convinces her to eat the the quote unquote flesh and meat. So she's eating her grandmother. And this is a, this cannibalism motif is actually a common motif in folklore. It's, it's wide open to all forms of interpretation. Perhaps, you know, if I, since I tend to read this story as sort of a coming age story, perhaps it signifies, you know, the young replacing the old rebirth in a way, rebirth, and that we also carry our ancestors with us inside of us. And the line, the little cat, slut that she is that eats the, the flesh and blood of her granny. That's the line in the version

that we're talking about. You know, it's a complicated story that brings up, it's, it's not such an easy, easy fairy tale as, as we might be used to. It's, it's a story in which good and evil sort of switch, switch hit. And it's clear that she's entered into a complicated situation. And perhaps part of the moral of this story is that growing up is demonstrate, is about demonstrating your ability to deal with complicated situations. Well, and certainly the sexuality is there. As you say, there's a, there's a kind of a strip tease that the, the zoo asks her to go through. You also write about at this time, there probably was very little privacy at home, so that sexuality and, and body elimination was very present in households. That's true. If you look through the oral folk traditions that predate are very floral and elaborate and delicate literary fairy tales, you'll see that they're, they are full of sodomy and rape and pissing and, and defecation and cannibalism and all of the things that we consider crass and, and rude. And, and really they're,

you know, there's, there's several reasons for that. One of which may be historical. A lot of these themes were out in the open. People lived in tight quarters. People, parents and, and lovers would share their rooms with their children and the chamber pots, they would share the chamber pots beneath their beds. And, in fact, fairy tales, you know, we often think of them as timeless and universal. But, in fact, they really do contain a lot of clues to what life was like hundreds of years ago. For example, the stepmother is such a recurrent figure in fairy tales. And, that's really my, the wicked stepmother. And this is, this is no coincidence. Hundreds of, hundreds of years ago, the death during childbirth was quite a common thing. And, therefore, stepmothers were also quite common. And, if the stepmother brought with her, her own children from a previous marriage, these children would represent competition for the patrimony. So, hence the, this competition between step siblings and the stepmother. Also, infant abandonment. For example, Hansel and

Gretel. We taught, we're talking about parents who bring their children out into the woods and abandon them because they can no longer feed them. And, today, perhaps, this seems excessively cruel. But, in fact, infanticide and abandonment were much higher hundreds of years ago, because in certain regions of Europe, and particularly in France, where some of these fairy tale traditions were first written down, these were places where, you know, there was famine, great famine. So, it wouldn't be unusual to sacrifice one or two or several children, maybe for the rest, for the rest of the family. You know, I don't know whether I could say usual or unusual, but I do know that, statistically, yes, those things happened on a more regular basis. And, that fairy tale's contain elements of history like that, or clues to historical moments. We will talk more with Catherine Ornstein. We're talking about her new book. It's called Little Red Riding Hood Uncloped, Sex Morality, and the Evolution of a Fairytale. 1-888-477-94999. Call us. We'll be right back. Arcadia Conservatory Theater supports WHY-Y. Two Shakespeare classics appear this season

on the Arcadia University campus in Glenside, Pennsylvania. From November 15th to December 8th, it's the Taming of the Shrew. Then February 20th to March 23rd, it's Romeo and Juliet. Performance is Friday, Saturday, and Sunday nights with Matt Nays on Sunday. Student Matt Nays on Friday mornings. For tickets or information, 215-572-2112, or Arcadia.edu. Monday on The Tava Smiley Show, we'll look at some of the hottest video games on the market, and whether or not they actually encourage criminal behavior in children. Also, we'll check with our man, George Johnson, for the latest in sports, plus a conversation about finding personal meaning in a crazy world with the author of the paradoxical commandments. That's next time on The Tava Smiley Show from NPR. Tonight at 8 o'clock on WHY-Y. In 1553, the scientist and theologian Michael Servetus wrote a book. The church was furious. It ordered every copy burned, right along with Servetus.

But three copies survived their author and took on a life of their own. We'll hear the story of this man, his book, and the ideas that cost him his life on the next Todd Munchow. This afternoon at 1 on WHY-Y. We're back talking with Katherine Ornstein today on Radio Times about the story of Little Red Riding Hood, and it's the subject of her new book, Little Red Riding Hood Uncloked. 1-888-477-9499. That's 1-888-477-WHY. We've been talking about some of the various versions of this story that have been around in the culture, been rewritten over time, and we'll be getting us into the 20th century in just a moment or two. Let me pick up on something that you said about cannibalism, because you include a quote from Joseph Campbell who wrote a lot about mythology and archetypes. The hero with her god or goddess, man or woman, the figure in a myth or the dreamer of a dream

discovers and assimilates his opposite, either by swallowing it or being swallowed up. One by one, the resistances are broken. You must put aside his pride, his virtue, beauty, and life and power submit to the absolute intolerable. Then he finds that he and his opposite are not differing species, but one flesh. It's interesting to read that in the light of the whole cannibalism, nature, of the story of Little Red Riding Hood, even though it's been changed over time. And also thinking about how the wolf swallows the girl, too. One thing that Campbell is talking about there is the inability to make such... We have extremes from fairy tales and in myth. We have archetypes that represent opposites, good and evil, black and white, beast and human, male and female, and yet the ability to distinguish between those gradually is lost. And in fact, the boundaries between them far more permeable than we would ever think. And in fact, fairy tales are as much about division and contrast in opposites as they are about inclusion and inversion. Sometimes you find that the enemy becomes your rescuer,

that the savior becomes the villain. And in fact, the story of Little Red Riding Hood, you know, her history really illustrates that, you know, traditionally we have the wolf as evil. And yet, as we'll see, as you know, as I write about in my book, Little Red Riding Hood Uncloked, the wolf often we find is the victim. Today we are repopulating Yellowstone Park and there are dozens of wolf advocacy organizations that are just to adopt a wolf. And we also have versions of the fairy tale today in which the wolf is the endangered species that we have to protect. And Little Red Riding Hood is a powerful assertive woman. Little Red Riding Hood has been rewritten as well. She's, you know, in some versions. She's weak. She's the damsel in distress who must be rescued. She's, you know, the sexually unchased or promiscuous or disobedient. And then today, you know, we also have the, you know, we have a lesbian dominatrix porn star whose state, you know, whose, whose stage name is Red Riding Hood or Little Red Riding Crop is

one variation of a very popular theme I might add. And we see all the time that the seducer becomes the seduced, the villain becomes the victim, and that folklore and mythology is really about exploring, exploring these lines and exploring that we're really all a little bit, a little bit of everything and that characters are not and symbols are not always what they seem. Let's get some colors to join us. We have Johnny's been waiting on the line from Balakim. Good morning, Johnny, you're already at times. Good morning. I would like to thank Miss Ornstein for her fascinating book, which I read and enjoyed immensely. It's a very good way of telling the narrative of cultural history to do it around one particular item. A few weeks ago on Iber and Roper, the film review people, they made a list of their favorite cult films. And I love films so I wrote the list and I happened to see one a couple of weeks ago and I can't remember whether you mentioned it in your book. I enjoyed your book so much. I

landed to a friend to read so I don't have it to check. A movie called Freeway. I do with a chapter on it. Witherspoon and Keeper Sutherland, which is a very funny dark dark variation, one in which Little Red Riding Hood of course is triumphant over the Ebola, Keeper Sutherland. I do write about Freeway. I loved the movie. It was written and directed by Matthew Bright, who I actually met with him. He claimed that he had no knowledge of the history of the fairy tale or of folklore theory and yet his movie very nicely gives us some of the conventions of fairy tales and then flips them. He's contrasted the ideals of the fairy tale and the idea of happily ever after with the sort of squalor and contradictions of reality. He resets Red Riding Hood in Southern California and sort of White Trash Southern California and Little Red Riding Hood is played by, it's her name in the movie is Vanessa. She's played by Reese Witherspoon wearing a red leather

jacket and hip-hop clothes and she is hitchhiking her way to Grandma's trailer park when she meets up with a smooth-talking serial killer named Bob Wolverton played by Keeper Sutherland. And he's saying he had no conscious idea that he was recreating the Little Red Riding Hood story? No, no. Of course he knew he was recreating Red Riding Hood but he had no knowledge of the history of the story and he at least he claims he had not studied any of the theory behind you know fairy tales, folklore theory. And yet there are so many of the conventions of the fairy tale that he's addressed and you know really it's not as surprising as it seems because all of us understand the conventions of the fairy tale. We've internalized the fairy tale. I mean it's really we've been raised on these and they're you know they're the first words, the first stories, the first scenarios of society that were ever told before we really leave home and we model our lives and our ideals at least after these stories. So it's not so surprising that he would so readily be able to reproduce or reinvent a fairy tale. I loved some of the ways

in which he modernized. For example, Keeper Sutherland plays a serial killer, a necrophysic pedophile which is a you know it's an ironic rejoinder to the princes of our traditional fairy tales who always tend to covet these adolescent dead beauties like Sleeping Beauty who's in a 100 year coma or Snow White who is dead and in a coffin when the prince offers to buy her from the dwarves which he actually he does offer to buy her from the dwarves that's in the original text. Keeper Sutherland plays a therapy, he's a serial killer and his cover is he's a therapist and really I you know I can't see a better modern version of the wolf and sheep's clothing than a psychopath posing as a therapist. Psychopath posing as a psychologist or psychiatrist. Yeah, perfect. And he's also moved the characters around you know he gives a Vanessa slash red riding hood played by Reese Witherspoon has a boyfriend whose name is Chopper Wood and he

you know it's the inversion of the wood chopper who is the savior figure in in in the fairy tale and in the movie Chopper Wood is played by Boki Moodbine he's um he plays a black inner city a literate youth so he's everything that we might today imagine is that you know the counter myth you know he's certainly not the the night and shining armor of of modern society or at least modern mainstream society and he doesn't play a traditional savior figure either what he plays is sort of a helper donor figure also a popular character and folklore he gives Vanessa a gun he ends up being killed in in the movie shortly thereafter because he doesn't have his gun but the gun becomes the means by which Reese Witherspoon slash our heroine our little red leather jacketed heroine saves herself and that's a film called Freeway written and directed by Matthew Bright and again a variation on this little red riding hood theme thanks John for raising it let me get Asa to join us calling from her car come on raise asa your radio times hi there or I was

wanting to be an author a new of Therany Stables which has a story of the wolf and the virgin in the woods published in 1547 the edition I am hmm can you repeat the name I'm I'm I'm charity F-A-E-R-N-I and I huh where's that from Asa well it's the edition I have is published in Italy but it was annotated by somebody in the British Museum in 1812 of course the stuff written in the book it's a fast name lovely little items filled with lovely little wood blocks in the other piece of American culture that relates to that is Danny K used to do this wonderful spoof story about red riding hood and the wolf I don't know if you've ever heard that how do it go but I I love Danny K yes he does this incredible spoof about she was a little girl from and the wolf says what is a nice girl doing in a place like this but it's a long series of fun great fun that's great but the Therany Stable thing is wonderful well there's something that you know Lippity Shaperone Rouge the Perot version in 1697 is our first published version identified as

red riding hood but there's a story tradition that predates it and appears all around the world or thought predate it and and that story tradition also appears in Italy and in fact it's you know I the one wonderful version of that tradition is it'll oh Calvino's I believe it's 19 the 1950s his Italian folk tales includes a version of it and it's it's very much resembles the grandmother's tale that we were discussing earlier very much resembles the story from France thanks for calling in you can call as well and we are talking today on radio times about little red riding hood and our guest is Catherine Ornstein her book is called Little Red Riding Hood Uncloked subtitled sex morality and the evolution of a fairy tale and there are many versions of the fairy tale that probably most people know from the Grims Brothers 1 8 8 8 4 7 7 9 4 9 9 that's 1 8 8 8 4 7 7 w h y y we'll have the show is done we haven't even talked about the Grims Brothers their version written in the early 19th century but since we've laid the groundwork for for some

of the interesting subtext for this story it is interesting to begin to read it as a children's tale and obviously that's who they thought their audience was yes that the 19th century really it's the time of the blossoming of children's literature the the Grims brothers were not originally children's writers at all they were scholars they spoke many languages they were linguists they were scholars of medieval stories and myth and and actually they were in the process of penning a dictionary which was not completed I think William got as far as fruit I think that was the word I remember from his biography they were very serious scholars and they collected folklore as part of this endeavor to capture the true German spirit and you know natural poetry of the people and so they're their first volume of children and household stories it's a very it's a very heavy thick volume annotated it really is not something that you'd want to read to your

children what happened is the the Grims brothers were not that well off children's literature you know literature was changing the book market was changing the industrial revolution really changed the face of Europe they're new urban cultural centers developed the rise of the middle class and the rise of literacy amongst the middle class meant that there was now a market for books and particularly for niche markets like children's books and this is early kid lit I guess this is early you see for you see some of you know you see some of our first toy books in this period toy books you know today we have these things you can buy them at children's stores but you know a few people know that they have their origins in this time books that are pop up books books that were cut in the shape of for example at a very funny book I found is cut in the shape of red writing hood so you actually have to open her cloak and page by page open the book you know books books in color also color printing processes were for were first developed during the mid 19th century

and it's really during this time with each edition that the brothers grim as they're now known as if they were one person yes began adapting their their story collection for children and they and it's it's quite clear that they're doing this they they say so themselves in their preface to their editions that they're making them appropriate for childish years and they're not just making children's books but they're making morality books you know how to behave how to be how to behave in in the 19th century you have a new household developing a Victorian household because children stay at home longer the factory sister because of the factory system they're not sent out to be apprentice so you now have this new nuclear family you also have a longer that the possibility that your your children would live beyond infancy is much greater so you now have a nuclear family and one of the important elements of this nuclear family is making sure that the children are obedient and and also really everyone including a wife to the um patriarchy so you have

a lot of stories about obedience if you read the grams a lot of them are particularly violent and brutal as well because they were really intended to drum home manners um and if you've seen a Victorian picture book you'll you'll see that some of them they they really spare nothing in their brutality sometimes very you know very very bloody and and uh you know I was going to say that the standards of what are what we consider appropriate for children have changed but then uh for hops that's not really the case um but in this story it's interesting because you have the introduction of the hunter who saves the day at the end or certainly saves little red riding hood and as you say there is this this undertone of violence and also the the path becomes the straight narrow path a grandmother that the little red riding was sent to visit her grandmother on this straight and narrow path right you have um the the grimster of little red riding hood it's really wonderful how it sort of echoes what's going on culturally they they've taken all the sexuality out of the story you know our French story was a seduction story a chastity parable

designed for adults the grims have taken out everything including the sexually suggestive moral that Charles Perot had written and they've transformed it into a story of obedience and even perhaps of spiritual danger because the wolf now has come to represent this sort of spiritual danger equated perhaps with the devil as many illustrators did um and they have created this nuclear family around the story so she's red riding hood now has a mother who plays a prominent role in warning the girl not to stray from the path and you have the uh a woodsman they invent a hunter you know they've they've put in this new character who comes to the rescue really echoes this idea of the patriarch as the important savior figure and you have of course you have the the grandmother too you have a not you now have a nuclear family around a you know a generation of family and you have a story that revolves around obedience and with with the spiritual threat the wolf often drawn in in sheepskin which is of course a biblical reference to the devil and this is really echoing this Victorian idea that women and children and especially girl children are particularly

susceptible to sin and temptation and need to be protected but you know it's interesting to think about this and you write about this as well in in your book about how this doesn't end with marriage or happily ever after the way some fairy tales do this isn't about finding prince charming and all the things that are supposed to happen with that that that she's still a little girl things are a little but unclear at the end what's going to be the rest of her life and is that an important distinction you think it's a story it's an unusual it's it's unusual in a fairy tale and it takes us really right up into the 20th century you know most of our fairy tales and in weddings there really stories about the you know ideal behavior that a woman particularly women the ones that we've popularized today that we all know best today are all about women slipping beauty ribhansals snow whites and derella red riding hood and they're really these sort of stories that teach you what kind of behavior you need to end up happily ever after which in in all of our you know you know our popular fairy tales today it means a fairy tale wedding and you know the whole idea

of a fairy tale wedding this is really a modern 20th century romanticization of the of this concept it's certainly it's certainly not in the story books you know if if anyone who's ever wished for a fairy tale wedding might want to go back and check their perot again perot stories are all about greed money cruelty murder and people who don't know each other and all getting married you know the story of blue beard it's a serial killer perot's first story it's called the patience of grizzled it slightly less known but it's very interesting because it's essentially a story of marital abuse and torture poor woman marries a prince and he bans her to from the castle and banshes her to poverty attempts to marry her daughter convinces her that the daughter is dead it's this story of he's testing her he's testing her her morality by by torturing her or take another example Cinderella Cinderella is a story where the prince cannot even recognize her he needs to rely on her shoe size and and he still makes you know two mistakes you know these this is the real

fairy tale wedding if you read a fairy tale and it and it's not a coincidence because the fairy tale wedding of the 17th century reflected the true wedding of the 17th century which was the arranged marriage was something that was set up by parents usually a very cross exchange of assets and the young couple in question often did not meet until after the marriage certificate was signed and they could often lead to very horrible situations well and that raises a question about whether we should feel happy then for little red riding or that she didn't have to deal with marriage such as this we're going to take another short break and then talk some more with Catherine Oranstein her new book is called Little Red Riding Hood Uncloax Sex Morality and the evolution of a fairy tale and after this break we'll start talking about some of the 20th century versions of the story because they're quite interesting as well one eight eight eight four seven seven nine four nine nine stay with us call us we'll be right back

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another version of Little Red Riding Hood and if you're just joining us we're talking with Catherine Ornstein she got a new book called Little Red Riding Hood Uncloaked one eight eight eight four seven seven nine four nine nine we have set the stage for the 20th century where we begin to see the story go back to some of its original roots looking at the sexuality that really lies under this story and and was part of the creation of this story yes this yes the story is a sexual parable and also the difference between Little Red Riding Hood and some of the other fairy tale heroines you know our other fairy tale heroines their their stories and in the fairy tale wedding and you we were just talking about the the difference between you know what the real fairy tales are about and the fairy tale wedding of you know modern understanding which is really this romantic term that stems from you know our mid century I idealization of of domesticity and marriage and in this age when the age of first childbirth dropped and the age of first marriage dropped

and the divorce rate dropped and then you know about the only thing that went up was the number of hours that women devoted to housework and you really see that fairy tales coming to glorify this and coming to you know become the little narratives of you know our domestic myth of the fifties but Little Red Riding Hood does not she doesn't end with a wedding no she does and in fact you know she she has this very different story and mid century you get this very interesting sexualization of the story you know we as almost a you know the single woman the dating ritual a caricature of dating and mating and we're in the 1950s right we really you know you hear it in that song the Sam the Sham song where you know it's really a story about a date I mean who you know no one's you know no one's fooled by that at the big bad you know you're everything a big bad wolf could want it's a it was a very popular story a song back in the 60s it was a top 10 hit for teens um and also during the 1950s and 60s Little Red Riding Hood starts to appear in advertising and and she's generally she's a grown-up adult woman femme fatal and instead of you know providing

ad copy for the perfect wedding she really looks like a character that stepped out of you know Helen Gurley Brown's sex and the single girl and it's it's fantastic to see our myth of mid-century exploded in this way um one of my favorite examples is a poster-sized double-page ad that ran in vogue magazine in 1953 for ripe young riding hood red lipstick and the ad the ad shows this gorgeous woman in red a red hood applying um you know with red nails and she's applying red lipstick in the middle of a forest which is pretty funny and then behind her from there's the forest and from behind all the trees is this uh company of rock hudson lookalikes and they're all peeping at her and the ad copy promises that the lipstick shade will will help bring out the wolves which it's it's it's a fantastic ad visually and it's also hilarious when you think about how the story has been transformed you know what what was in the 19th century a warning against speaking to strangers has now become um advice about how to lure them out

well and you also include and this is a 1943 cartoon so the predates this ad in vogue magazine red hot riding hood which was a cartoon where uh red is is what a sort of a stripper she's a stripper and and the wolf is some kind of a city slicker yes is anyone who loves bugs bunny and daffy duck should um should do a little research into tech saveries history because he did a lot more than that um one of his favorite fairy tale characters was red riding hood and he did many different send ups of her story in which she's always this bucsum hot stripper and he really he was very creative he managed to do many many versions of red riding hood as a stripper and the wolf as this sort of smitten bachelor um the most probably my favorite is the the version that you're talking about it's red hot riding hood from 1943 and uh set in hollywood at the you know at the corner of hollywood and vine the famous nightclub corner and she's uh doing a strip tease for the wolf and

it's you know back and in this time you know cartoons were not for children they were they were shown before the main feature and so they had to entertain adults and you know I mean some people favored the kids tech saverie obviously appealed to and tried to appeal to adults um he was quite famous for his visual metaphors for sexual excitement so his wolf sees red hot riding hood in his eyeballs literally pop out and his tongue rolls out at like a red carpet and um he has a tendency to levitate and stiffen up whenever she removes an item of clothing and in in fact avery was so so good at these kind of like salacious visual metaphors that uh he what he attracted the attention of government sensors and the original ending of red hot riding hood had to be changed because of its implications of bciality it it ends with you know while the wolf is chasing red hot riding hood red hot riding hood's grandma is chasing the wolf and she gets him in the original ending she gets him and they show up at the at the strip club at the end with a pack of wolf pups but the the

government didn't like that ending and so he was forced to rewrite it with a with a slightly uh slightly more conservative version let me get pedmini to join us uh calling us uh from the car good morning your radio times hi i'm really enjoying your discussion so thank you first for that you're welcome um the question i wanted to ask and the discussion seems to be heading there anyway in the 20th century it seems uh you know the red cloak is reading red as a marker of sexuality quite explicitly in these different versions that you all are talking about and i'm curious about about how uh let's say two centuries earlier that cloak was being interpreted or presented so you know for instance why is it that in the Victorian period the red cloak doesn't become a blue cloak or a white cloak or something that uh is more chased than uh the sexual marker that it obviously is no thank you for calling in and and if i can swing back to the the grims brothers she wears a cap right does that change her you i'm glad you asked this question i just i want to answer it broadly

because it's a great question you know red is such a powerful color and whenever you find red in folklore you know that it's got all kinds of symbolic um baggage you know but what does it really stand for i mean it turns out that red is a lot of things it's a strong color but sometimes it's a weak color and sometimes it means uh you know that you're the sexual aggressor and sometimes it symbolizes sexual availability it's also the color of blood and of life it's a lot of things um in the original oral folk tradition the girl doesn't wear anything at all so the red cloak is actually the invention of Charles Perot at least in the literary tradition that most of us know and clearly for him it was a symbolic of both of her sin and of her fate because she dies in that story uh so it's a story of her her prompt it's a it's a symbol of her promiscuity and also interestingly lipety chaperone rouge the little red riding hood the name of his story also gives us the the word chaperone a hood which has come to have its meaning it had its meaning then in French it has come to develop

its modern meaning in in English of a matron who protects a young woman's virginity or protects her from men which is essentially the message of that original story now let's fast forward to the brother's grim right the brother's grim story rock caption it's it's uh little red cap but their story also spread to uh to England and in England that's where we get little red riding hood the title by which most of us most English speakers that is know that story and there's a reason for that the the red riding hood was the traditional garb and and it was so common and so traditional it's probably the only the only garb of 19th century rural England that can really be called traditional it was iconic and if you see for example if you look at a Jane Austen any of the BBC documentaries of pride and prejudice they're all shown wearing their red riding hoods this you know such a there's myths about about this this garment and so when the grim's brothers rewrote the story and it was translated into English and it took over the continent it was slipping into this new this new

persona no longer the chaperone of France but the red riding hood which was really you know the working class woman of 19th century 19th century England and Europe and we also see you know the it really brings us up into the 20th century where red has come to represent other things both both red the heroin and red the color you know in in the max factor ad or in red hot riding hood the cartoon by tech savory we see red as this sort of sexual availability although not a weak sexual availability we're really getting this sort of may west kind of like powerful sexuality or sex in the single girl you know not exactly what later feminists would claim for female empowerment but certainly not the demure and helpless kind of femininity that we get from the myth of mid-century thanks a lot to pet mini for calling in and I should just add to since I'm looking at you and you're wearing a red shirt yeah we always wear red for my interview oh good I got it let me get Ethan to join us uh Ethan's calling us from Toledo Ohio good morning Ethan hi nice to have you

with us hi who are you Ethan um I am uh I'm actually the the author's boyfriend thanks for calling from Ohio I have a question that that I that occurs to me that's um I wanted to ask and uh um you could you could ask her when she got home I'm sorry you couldn't ask her when she got home no I'm kidding well this occurs to me while listening to you guys online so I should call in um where are the fair are any fairytales being written today the book seems to address the question of modern renditions or variations of old themes is there a genre is there an art form today that has taken the place or that serves a similar function um of teaching morals gender role and that sort of thing right that will I don't know persist for a few centuries into the future yeah well Ethan for calling in yeah thank you um there's several answers to that I guess um for one if we're talking about fairytales for children there's there's just a zillion revisions of

the fairytales and fairytales are widely perceived as as all children's books are I think um moralizing in a way um whether it's didactic or sort of some you know you know something that's just sort of we intuit but um they've been rewritten in lots of ways to reflect all different kinds of values and cultures um speaking uh about how fairytales permeate the rest of our culture adult culture the rest of the world fairytales are constantly being rewritten and a large portion of my my book little red writing hood uncloked looks at how the fairytales surrounds us and you know the fairytale is in movies in ads we all knew that pretty women you know was little was Cinderella all over again and now we have made in America with Jennifer Lopez and it's Cinderella all over again in fact there's a zillion Cinderella stories being remade in the movies which are perhaps the you know the media by which we really um you know we sort of mythologize our stories now uh we find little red writing hood in advertisements uh there was a fantastic ad for um for

eluxury.com which which ran it was little red writing hood on her way to visit her grandma in Queens very sexy red writing hood ran in women's magazines last year kim katral played red writing hood in a Pepsi one ad last year it aired during the college pig skin classic and she is in this strappy red dress and red heels she's you know strolling the streets of of Prague and uh looking for a wolf and it's she's obviously they've been in this 30 second spot they've really they've inverted and rewritten the fairytale now she's the one on the prowl and in fact in in the ad her eyes flashed Lupine yellow um we we really find we find fairy tales everywhere at the same time it's it's worth noting that you know the the tradition penned by Charles Perot and pot and made even more popular because many of those stories appear in the brother's grimm and the brother's grimm expanded and wrote many more they've they've been canonized in a way that's special and unique and therefore we've carried them on you know the reason for that

it's not so much it's certainly not that they were original they weren't the originals it's not that they're even folklore because they they really aren't you know once pen hits paper folklore becomes literature yes but they were written down at a period of time when book in the book market and in the evolution of books and literature that was very key to their becoming the versions which most people will know today thanks Ethan for calling in let me just squeeze in another question and if we can maybe get back to our collars as well but but thinking of of the the porno version of Little Red Riding Hood because one of the things you say is that in many ways pornography is a kind of fairy tale at Ethan was calling in to say you know is there is there another rewriting of or fairy tales being recreated today or being created today and certainly fairy tales that deal with pornography can pick up on some of the sexuality and then play with it turn it on its head do you see the parallel here well you know pornography I when I was writing this book I I did a little research and I found it quite funny you know there's there is a whole flourishing

subgenre of fairy tale pornography Little Red Riding Crop the punishment of red riding hood and also Alice in bondage land Cinderella in chains Goldilocks in the three bears spelled B-A-R-E-S and you know it's quite funny you know and you know the the box cover for the video for the punishment of red riding hood which is a lesbian bondage you know SNM epic it describes the plot culminating with one of the characters being quote whipped and clipped on the dreaded overhead donut which made me laugh because you know you don't usually see the word dread and donut in the same sentence you got to rent the video I guess but it also made me think you know fair the fairy tale pornography it almost almost all of them feature sadomasochism bondage and dominant SNM and B&D in the fetish alphabet and I started thinking well why is that I mean that's that seems quite odd and then of course I realized well it's not odd at all because this is

really what fairy tales are about there about rules and and obedience and punishment and transgression and really what they're about is establishing the line between what's desirable behavior and what's not and in the case of you know defining ourselves as desirable girls and boys desirable men and women it's also what's sexually desirable and what's not so we you really what you get is fairy tale pornography crystallizing some of the central concerns of the fairy tale obviously in a very adult way well obviously and I thank you very much Catherine Orange team for joining us we are out of time much to talk about and the book is called Little Red Riding Hood Unclosed Sex Morality and the evolution of a fairy tale I'm Marty Moscowane and you're listening to WHYY FM Philadelphia your member supported NPR station serving Pennsylvania New Jersey and Delaware oh who's that I see walking in these woods why is Little Red Riding Hood

hey Little Red Riding Hood you sure are looking good you are everything a big bad wolf could you want listen to me Little Red Riding Hood I don't think little big girls should go walking in these spooky old woods alone what thing I should have oh we couldn't resist playing that one more time to say with us for voices in the family that comes your way in just a couple of moments here on WHYY also let me steer you over to our website why.org we need to fix and actually repair and replace our aging antenna and you can make a pledge of support to this campaign at why.org check it out also drop us an email at radio times radio times at why.org tomorrow on the first hour of the show juvenile justice the death