Radio Times; South Phila-Italian Style and Payback

But why can't Scientology convince critics it's a real religion? That story in the days news later on NPR's All Things Considered. You can catch today's edition of All Things Considered this afternoon at 4 o'clock right here on 91 FM in Philadelphia. I'm Marty Moss, Cohen, and coming up in the first hour of radio time this morning, South Philly Italian style. That's a name of TV 12's latest production, and we'll explore the history, lore, people food, life of one of Philadelphia's most famous neighborhoods. That's in just five minutes. Then on the second hour of the show, meet Thomas Kelly. His debut novel is based in part on his years working as a sandhog building the tunnels of New York. He said the people who do this back breaking and dangerous work 800 feet below the city streets deserve some recognition, more between 11 and 12. To keep that dial tuned to 91 FM and give us a call after the news from National Public Radio.

From National Public Radio News in Washington, I'm Carol Castle. Israeli Foreign Minister David Levy is holding talks in Jerusalem with U.S. Ambassador to Israel Martin Indick. The meeting comes one day after the United States said it would attend a weekend meeting of international diplomats being conducted by Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. Laurie Neff has a report from Jerusalem. Officials won't reveal the nature of the Levy Indick meeting. However, Israeli sources say Israel wanted to discuss the U.S. decision to attend Arafat's weekend conference. Sources say Israel is currently working on a formal response to the U.S. announcement. Palestinians, meanwhile, say Arafat has decided to lead a meeting of the Palestinian Legislative Council in the West Bank town of Bethlehem tomorrow. A council spokesman says the focus will be whether to continue peace talks with the Israelis. Palestinians are furious over Israel's decision to transfer another 9 percent of the West Bank to Palestinian control.

They expected three times as much territory. They're also enraged over Israeli plans to build a Jewish neighborhood in mainly Arab East Jerusalem, which would fit between Bethlehem and the disputed city. For National Public Radio, I'm Laurie Neff in Jerusalem. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, on a visit to Moscow, said today that he is fed up with accusations that Israeli actions are hurting chances for peace in the Middle East. His remarks come during a period of renewed tension between Israel and the Palestinians over Israeli plans to build a settlement in Arab East Jerusalem. Netanyahu told a news conference that he is fed up with the idea that everything Israel does is in violation of the peace agreement, and everything the Palestinians say is in compliance. A report out today says senior FBI officials have warned Georgia lawmakers that the person responsible for two recent bombings in Atlanta is likely to strike again. Joshua Leves, a member station W-A-B-E, reports from Atlanta. The report says national security officials at the FBI held a briefing with Georgia senators and representatives.

They told the minority groups in Atlanta should be watchful, but did not specify which groups in particular. The Atlanta Journal Constitution report says the FBI began contacting some minority communities after the recent bombs at a family planning clinic and a gay and lesbian nightclub. The FBI has offered no theories as to why Atlanta was single out for the bombings, but points to international exposure from last summer's Olympics as one possibility. agents say they are investigating the bombings under the theory that they could be related in the two recent bombings and in last summer's bomb at Centennial Olympic Park, law enforcement officials they say were specifically targeted. For National Public Radio, I'm Joshua Leves in Atlanta. On the New York Stock Exchange this hour, the Dow Jones industrial averages down 13.47 to 7,071.69, trading is light, volume 40 million shares, the NASDAQ composite index is down 4.35 to 13.12.41. This is NPR news. The Space Agency says the lunar prospector has been completed and it could be used early

as September. The lunar prospector is the first of what could be a new generation of robotic explorers. NASA says if testing goes well, it will be launched on a trip to the moon on September 24. Scientists at the Ames Research Center in Mountain View, California say the moon still has many secrets despite the Apollo-Mand missions of nearly a quarter century ago. The 75 percent of the surface of the moon has never been mapped in detail. Japan's Prime Minister Riyotaro Hashimoto apologized to the nation today for delays in reporting details of a fire and explosion that occurred in the country's nuclear waste processing facility. In Piers, Julie McCarthy has a report from Tokyo. The planned 100 miles north of Tokyo has been shut down pending investigation. Authorities say the blaze caused a radiation leak, but the amount was minimal and presented no health risk. The accident came as officials were attempting to restore public confidence in nuclear power. Mindful of growing resistance, Prime Minister Hashimoto told the Parliamentary Budget Committee

that plant operators should have been aware of the need for quick and accurate reports of yesterday's accident. A mysterious explosion occurred ten hours after a fire exposed workers to small amounts of radiation. This latest blow to Japan's nuclear power program came on the same day, Kyushu Electric Power Company abandoned plans to construct a new nuclear plant due to strong local opposition. In Tokyo, this is Julie McCarthy. Russian President Boris Yeltsin is sending Foreign Minister Yvgeny Primakoff to Washington on Saturday. The Foreign Minister will discuss NATO expansion as well as cutbacks and nuclear weapons arsenals. Primakoff will meet with Secretary of State Madeleine Albright on Saturday and with President Clinton at the White House on Monday. This is National Public Radio News from Washington. 91 FM programming is made possible by the members of WHOI in partnership with Manor Care Health Services, providing Philadelphia with skilled nursing, rehab, subacute care,

Alzheimer's care, assisted living and independent living, 1-800-800-CARE. I'm Marty Moss, co-ain and welcome to Radio Times. Many people living here in the Delaware Valley have ties to South Philadelphia. It's a vibrant neighborhood with a rich and varied heritage. Tonight at 8 o'clock on TV 12, viewers will have a chance to see WHOI's latest production and it's called South Philly Italian Style. It's a tribute to that community and includes the history, the politics, the art, religion, food and life of the people who lived there in Times past and lived there today. South Philly was settled by waves of immigrants and many of them were Italians who came to this country at the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th. And while much has changed over the decades, there are still important landmarks in South

Philly, like the Italian market, Palumbos, the Victor Cafe, to name just a few, which underscores the impact of Italian Americans on the city in the region. Today on Radio Times, a chance to talk about South Philly Italian Style, the film and the place. We're joined by Ed Cunningham, who produced and directed the film. Ed, nice to have you back with us on Radio Times. I'm pleasure, Marty. Joseph Sperger. Oh, I knew I was going to do that. And I practice all night, Sparaglia, who's with us as well. And he's written some historic nostalgic books about South Philly, two called The Waffle Man and one called Yo, I member Dat, and he goes by the nickname Joe Bagadona. Someone will find out about that. Good morning. Nice to have you with on Radio Times. Also with us is Agnes Bonomo Viso, and she's lived in South Philadelphia her whole life, 54 years. And she joins us on Radio Times to give us some of her memories as well. Agnes, nice to have you with us. Nice to be here. And to our listeners, as always, and we're interested in hearing from anyone who has any

kind of ties to South Philly, join our conversation, 215-923-2774-215-923-2774. Ed Cunningham, let me begin with you. What's your relationship to South Philly? Well, I've lived in South Philadelphia for most of my life. I was born there, and we lived there for about the first eight years of my life, moved to Overbrook and lived there for many years, and loved it out there until I met a young lady in college who became smitten with who was a South Philly girl, married her, my wife Ellie, and wound up moving back down here back in 1972, and we got married, and been there ever since, and I love it. Well, what was it like to make this film? And I assume you have to make some pretty hard decisions if you're going to talk about this region and squeeze it all into an hour's worth of tea time. Yeah, there's no doubt about that. Obviously, when you're doing a one-hour broadcast, you can't tell the entire story. It's hopeless, especially with a region as rich as South Philadelphia.

One thing I should mention, too, is that our original thought for this was to call it South Philly period. But the idea also was that we were also going to tell the story of the Italian-American people who have settled in Philadelphia. The idea was we were inspired by a show that aired elsewhere in a few other public television stations around the country called Little Italy. The thing is that, to my knowledge, we have never called any section of Philadelphia by that title. New York City does that, San Francisco does that, but we've never called any neighborhoods in Philadelphia a little Italy. It's just that that phrase has never taken hold. But it's always been certainly my experience. That South Philly is our, the closest thing, certainly we have to a little Italy. It's where the Italian people certainly first settled when they came to this country. That's where they established their first businesses and the whole flavor and atmosphere of that part of town. Even today, many years later, is largely, if not exclusively, influenced by the Italian people.

So, that's how we got that idea, and then we set about telling some of the details of that story. Well, let me turn to you, Joe, and ask you about your family and where they came from and when they settled in South Philly. Well, I'm third generation Italian. My grandfather came here in 1902. In 1918, he bought the home that my mom still lives in, where I was born and raised, and after many years traveling in the Air Force and around the world, I wound up two blocks from my home. And that's very South Philly, isn't that? It is very South Philly, yes, and the reason being, I found nothing in my world travels to equal. It's just unique unto itself. What is it, though? What is it about South Philly that keeps you there? I feel it's a family. I mean, my neighbors are like my family. How many people, you know, know 10 people on either side of them. Some people don't even know their next door neighbor, let alone, you know, the whole neighborhood. But when we grew up, we had like 50 babysitters or all the neighborhood was your family. For better for worse, right? For better for worse, you better not do nothing nasty because that knew about it that night when he got home from work.

But it's just that family feeling, that cohesiveness, that they're there. Something happened. 25 people run to help you immediately. And you're saying that's still still true today? Still true today. Yes, it is. Absolutely. Same question to you Agnes. So tell us about your family, where they came from and where they settled in South Philly. I'm a third generation. My maternal grandfather opened one of the first meat markets on the Italian market. My dad also owned a meat market. I've lived in the home where I live for 54 years. I'm giving away my age. So you live in the house where you literally grew up? That's right. And I agree with Joe. South Philly to me is family. Our neighbors are considered family. And friends, we don't consider friends friends, they're like family. We love gathering together. There's always a nice word.

There's always a nice ring member. There's a lot of traditions. It's a very warm and loving community. How much of the rest of the world have you traveled the way Joe has? Have you checked out other cities of the neighborhood? I certainly have. In this past October, I was in Rome and in Sicily with my daughter. And it's beautiful and it was so wonderful to go back to my heritage. I'm very proud of the people that I've come from and I have wonderful background. I truly love South Philadelphia and I love the Italian people and I love all the other people from all over the world who have come to the Italian market. It is a tourist attraction and it's really a wonderful warm place to be. Well Ed, how do you capture on film the kind of affection and warmth that our guests are talking about? Well, it's really probably the easiest thing in the world for a producer to do, especially in a neighborhood like that.

What you simply do is set up a camera, start chatting and let what comes naturally come out. I think I hope that you will find that in the program tonight. You get people talking about their lives and their families and what they do and food and good friends and that kind of thing and it just starts flowing. I think maybe people are a little nervous when they first see that camera. It's not all the time that people have a chance to sit around and talk with a big one-eyed monster staring at you at the same time. But once you get past that initial nervousness, the personality starts to shine with all of the people and you just sit there and let them do the work for you. In the case of Agnes, for instance, of course we eavesdropped kind of on purpose as Jean or daughter Maria whipped up some peppers and eggs and that is what happened when we were putting the program together in the edit suite. Everybody who would come into the edit suite started and I'm telling you, the math started watering. Oh my God, I'm hungry.

I have to have something. I have to have that. And of course, the great thing about that too is once the demonstration was over, you couldn't let that food go to waste. So we had eaten. So we ate it. And the recipe is Agnes for those people salivating by their radios. Wow. I saute red peppers, green peppers, onions. I saute them together. I beat up some eggs, drop of milk, a little salt and pepper, a lot of grated cheese. I mix the peppers and the eggs together. I put a little mozzarella and fry it together and some fresh parsley and basil and it's a wonderful, you know, it's a wonderful lunch and it's delicious and an Italian roll and I must tell you this story. I remember as a very young girl going to the end of the day. Like the Italian movies on Christian street and mom would make me my sandwiches to take for lunch in the movie. And that was the sandwich.

That's right. That is the sandwich that we see, the peppers. Wouldn't that leak sometimes though, Agnes? It wasn't that one of the problems of having a peppers and the same was kind of leaking into the bag and stuff like that. While mom made sure that everything was perfect for us with our napkins, but it was so delicious. It's worth all. Speaking of food, we have to find out Joe about your nickname, Bagadonets. Oh, that's easy, Marty. Okay, go ahead. In my lodge, we visit sick brothers and, you know, housebound friends and also friend of mine, Richie. He's Italian also. We went to visit a man and before going, we have a customer in the Italian community. Never to go with empty hands because that's an embarrassment to your visiting person. They might not have anything. So I said, what can we take this guys? Well, let's stop and get some donuts. Went to Dunkin' Donuts. We got some, put them in a bag, half a dog, one of a dozen. When we got to the door, not in the door, the door came to the door and said, that is two guys to see it. And one of them has a Bagadona. Richie thought that was hysterical. And as you, a lot of people came for now. It's my last name.

For Raglia, Sparaglia. Bagadona. That's became my nickname. And that's how I'm to get grew to name. And you wear it proudly. Why not? Who can hate a Bagadona? That's true. That's true. But you say that everyone has a nickname in South at least. Everyone. That's the nickname they get one. It always ends in an Iedo. Like Nicky, Ralphie, Paulie, Charlie. My son, though, is Albert. But he couldn't put an IE on his name. But he has blonde hair. But he called him Blondie. So they call him Blondie? He still got an IE in a nickname. But everybody has a nickname. Some of them are weird. Some of them have some mean like three-finger Charlie. You know, things like this. Charlie, the Carmen Hook. I mean, he had a big nose. But other names just grow out of their first name with an IE on the end. If any unusual bodily features at all, you can use the word that will be your name. That will be your name. Everyone will know it. You can't hide it. Give him a nickname, Agnes. My dad was Antonio Bonomo. They used to call him Tony. But he was the youngest butcher. And they used to call him Babe.

Yeah. Baby. Yes. He was a known as Baby because he was one of the youngest butchers on the Italian more. Even into old age, right? Even that's right. That's right. Funny how that works. Well, we're talking about South Philadelphia today on Radio Times and TV 12. Its latest production is called South Philly Italian Style. You can see it tonight at 8 o'clock on TV 12. And the producer and the director of the film is with us today on Radio Times. His name is Ed Cunningham, well known to 91 FM listeners. We're also joined by Agnes Bonomo Viso, who lives in South Philadelphia. She's lived there her whole life. And with us as well as Joseph Sparaglia. Oh gosh. It's so embarrassing. How am I doing? Getting better. Getting better. With each four, I can't hide this. Also known as Joe Bagadona. And he's written a bunch of really warm-hearted and nostalgic histories of South Philadelphia. Two called The Waffle Man. And one called Yo, I Member Debt. Well, we'd love to hear from you. If you have some stories you'd like to tell and you want to join our conversation,

that phone number is 215-923-2774-215-923-2774. As you said, Ed, you really wanted to focus in on the Italians that lived in South Philadelphia. But it seems to me to be pretty hard to separate out all the other immigrant groups. And I assume in all your neighborhoods there was a lot of interchange between the Irish and, you know, the, I don't know, what are some of the other immigrants? The Jewish immigrants have lived in South Philadelphia. And of course, as the years have gone on, we've seen obviously that that has changed. There are black people, of course, live in South Philadelphia in great numbers and various parts of South Philadelphia. And the Asian immigrants have made their presence known. In fact, if you go along Ninth Street these days, you'll notice an increasing number of Asian merchants. So it's not strictly the Italian market anymore. It's been called that for many years. It's becoming a little more international as the years have gone on. So it's still very much a melting pot in South Philadelphia and always has been. And we certainly emphasize that at the beginning of our show that,

and that was why we decided again to change that title from simply South Philly to South Philly Italian style to focus in on the contributions of the Italian Americans in particular to that part of town and to the community in general, of course. If I can interject that, we had a custom down there. We're not a melting pot. We're like a salad. As a combination, it works together. But you could still identify the tomatoes, the lettuce and all. Because within our community, each ethnic group has their own little culture. So it doesn't melt together. It doesn't melt together. It's presented as a combination. It isn't a combination like a Caesar salad. But each part is identifiable because they keep together in their own neighborhood. It's a good point. Let's talk a little bit about South Philly speak the way. The way folks from South Philly speak it. You can be our ambassador to the language here. Do we speak funny? Well, try us out and we'll see what our listeners have to say.

Well, let me borrow that book. Yeah, here you brought it up. I have a book. It's just a consultable book. When I say S-A-R-I-T-E as a two syllable word, saw right. Saw right. Agnestos would have means right. It's all right. Right. Or when they say S-M-A-S-S-E-D. What kind of potato do you order at the molrose? Smashed. I mean, we have. I mean, I'm asked, of course. And if you want M-A-W-N-B-A-C-K, you hear this every trash day. Come on back. That's right. But we don't speak unique. I mean, it's just a natural thing. I don't know. Everybody speaks that way in South Philadelphia. And with the dialect, I have travel and people say, I know exactly where you're from.

It's all right. And it's scary because they do know exactly where, say, Hogi in any part of the world in the United States, and they'll identify with the Delaware Valley in Philadelphia in particular. And as you keep talking, it becomes South Philadelphia. Well, you know what I notice is that more and more people say Philadelphia as opposed to Philadelphia. Philadelphia. Philadelphia. Oh, yeah. We can be sure that even more. Philadelphia. Philadelphia. F-L-U-F-F-Y-A. Philadelphia. See, it's much shorter at the same time. Let's go on and say other things in the amount of time that you've saved. Tell me about the word metagon. We hear that a lot. I've heard it a lot. And tell us what that means. In my book, I had a question. Does anyone know how to tell an Italian role from a metagon role? Agnus met an Italian role. Right. An Italian role, three days after debate, can be used for a break. Because they use no preservatives. That's right. And a metagon role is what they sell in the economy. In the economy. Right.

Because four months later, it's still soft and mushy because of... And most metagons are everyone that is not an Italian. It's not a slur. But if you're not Italian, you've got to be metagon. Which is kind of like American, right? American, yes. That's right. But they have their own traditions like the soft pretzel. There's only one soft pretzel. Right. And federal and there's the center city pretzel makes it. But the metagom pretzels are the little round things that they freeze and then take out and put in their metagom pretzel and tell it differently instantly. And you notice that you didn't know that Acme was a three syllable word. It isn't a self-filly. It isn't a self-filly. Well, I think there's another self-fillyism that's also made its way into the rest of the region here, which is the... Instead of the Eagles, it's of course the Eagles. The Eagle. Right, of course. And Davette. Davette. Davette. Exactly. Where else would the Eagles play? Marty, I've had good bulls say, I know where you're from because I could tell you by your accent. And I said, oh, I don't have an accent.

But Stonians have accent. No, you have your individual accent, your self-ful of faith. Well, I wonder where the kids today. Are they carrying on some of these same traditions? It's not. Well, just to communicate. Right. And if you communicate with these words, it grows on you like, how else would you say, what's the street that comes after fourth? Oh. F-I-F-F. Fifth. I mean, that's exactly the way it's said. And that's exactly where they put out the words. And it just like grows on it. How about that number after 19? 20. T-W-U-N-N-Y. Oh, 20. 20. 20. Right. There's no T in 20. We know 20. No E. But I had a chance to write to the self-ful of the review a couple of years ago. And provide them with a list of the words. And I said, should you ever want to, you know, you need a space full of her newspaper? Be my guest. Well, the editor Sandra Pilla, she took an idea, brought it to her staff, and they sent out a contest to send in South Philadelphia phrases and words.

And for about eight weeks, it ran into paper. She sent me a huge thank you letter, this, that and the other. And I compiled a little booklet for that. And it's a lot of not all, absolutely not all of the words, the phrases of South Philadelphia. And when people read it from like Tucson, Arizona, they are from Philadelphia. Right. They get their friends. Come here. That's what I'm trying to tell you. It's all here, right? It's all there. They don't speak that way. And the most any other part of the United States, unless they're immigrant. We're talking about South Philadelphia today on radio times. And as I said earlier in the hour, TV 12 has a new production. It's its latest production. It's called South Philly Italian Style. And it makes its debut tonight on TV 12 at 8 o'clock. We're joined by Ed Cunningham, who produced and directed the film. Joseph Sparaglia. Of course. Sparaglia is here as well. And as I said, they, a real historian of South Philadelphia, also known as Joe Baganuts.

Bagadona. Oh. And Agnes Sparaglia. Agnes Sparaglia is here as well. And she has lived in South Philly her whole life. And they join us today on radio times to Reminisce and to talk about South Philly as they remember it. 2159-232774-2159-232774. Agnes, let me just get you to Reminisce a little bit about some of your childhood memories growing up. The kinds of games, perhaps the girls played in your neighborhood or where you went to party and have fun. Well, I think the big thing was to go to the movies and or we would play outside and we would put wood on the bottom tie, wood to the bottom of our shoes and act like they were skates and play dolls and girls' scouts. And it was really a family thing. A lot of children in my home, my mama, movies entertained, you know, the neighborhood girls or the school children. Because it was nice to keep her children close to her in the home.

And that's the way we believed today also. You know what amazed me was, and I think Joe, it's in your book, which is the numbers of movie theaters that were in South Philadelphia. I mean, you had a big choice of theaters and where you could go to see films. Yes, many, many. Yes, there was a Savoya, there was the Dante. Of course, you know, the one I went to was the Italia because it was right around the corner. And it was a half a block away from where Mario Lanzo was born. And it was the place to go. Actually, you know, in those days it was, we stayed close to home. There wasn't much going out. Our families had businesses, they worked hard, worked late hours. And most of our bringing up was within the home. Right. And let's not forget places like the colonial theater of course. That's right. Our big movie palace in South Philadelphia, of course. It brought the Snyder was the Broadway. The Broadway.

And I remember as a kid seeing things like Ben Hurr and things like that. That's where you went to see the big. On the big screens. Big screens was the Broadway. Let's go ahead, Joe. We had at the Broadway, the Yo-Yo contest. Oh, yes. I had it. Well, it was a contest for Yo-Yo's. Where do we get all the local kids, boys and girls, to go on the stage and do track and all come in? Do this trick, do that trick. And they eliminated whoever couldn't do the trick. They were thrown off the stage. Literally thrown off. Literally. I mean, sit down. Well, I practiced quite a lot. And I had that I was ready to go. So I was the first one in line. And he says, OK. Walk the dog. Easiest trick in the book. Through my Yo-Yo down the string broke. The Yo-Yo hit the stage. Went out and he said, I'm standing there with a broken string. Like, what do I do now? He says, sit down. I think that's thrown off the stage. Something you can't control, Joe. Yeah. Just out of your control. That was a great event. I never could do baby in the cradle. I could never get that straight.

And I never won the prize. Did you ever? Did you ever want to add the winner? I had two Yo-Yo going in this day. Oh, absolutely. But he never was from the neighborhood. You never knew where he came from. We might have been from Chicago, sharp places. They were sharp. They were ringers. Absolutely. Well, I'll tell you what. So let's go to Marion and she's calling us from her car phone. Hi, Marion. You're in radio times. Hi, Marty. I live in your show religiously every day. And this is the first time I've ever gotten through. There you go. And I am laughing my butt off in my car. Well, drive carefully, Marion. My father was from South Philly. And every Saturday morning for my entire life, I had to go down to the Italian market with him. And of course, we had to go to terminus to get a canole. And he used to use a phrase. And I don't know if Joe ever heard of it. It was called, you know, I'll go gun you knew. Go gun you? Yeah. At one time, I was watching Jack Klubman being interviewed on a talk show. And he used to phrase. And I almost fainted. I could not believe it was on national television.

Well, he's from Philadelphia. He is from South Philly. Yes. And the other one I had to laugh about also was my father would always say Earl as opposed to oil. And he had a friend whose name was Earl. And we used to try to correct him using oil. So we tried to call him this guy oil. Thank you. I like olive oil. Yeah, right. And it was, I mean, this is really a very, very pleasant show. And it's bringing back a lot of memories, especially if you put my father passed away a couple of years ago. So it's great. Keep it up. Well, thank you, Marion, for calling in. What is this Jack Klubman phrase or the cheat that you talked about? I'm actually putting your question to Joe about the Jack Klubman phrase. Got to go in your means, taking your making a fist, extending your first knuckle, and giving somebody a wrap on the skull. That's right. That's not to hurt him. Right. Just to get the attention. Get the attention. You wrap him on the skull with your first knuckle and you're telling me that's not to hurt him. No. You'll feel that a little bit. All right, Marion. Thanks for calling in. Thank you very much. Actually, a listener, excuse me, wanted to know about the phrase

about a Bing, about a boom. Can anyone help us out on that? Packooper, is that a self-analysis? It's a set for us, you know. And I think he took it out of New York, because we use it downtown, but I don't think it originated down that way. And I also heard the word yo. You ever came from South Philadelphia. That's from Brooklyn. It was an import. But you've adopted it, haven't you? You've adopted it because yo means everything. I mean, it's an all-per-mo greeting. That's right. Also to get someone's attention. Just to get their attention. We had a comment about the gargonya. We had a game called gargonya at Easter time, or Eppers, a lot of people call it Eppers. And I've been exposed in my book, because one year, Eppers is a game taking a hard-boiled egg, copying it, so just part of the shell is extending in your fist. Right. And then having someone else crack your egg with their egg, whose ever egg shell cracked, had to eat the hard-boiled egg right there. Now, I cracked everybody's egg that year.

And right now, I go on public radio saying, I'm sorry, because I used the ceramic egg. I got them all. And I assume they still live near you in order to get some kind of revenge for that. I'm going to give you a good go on you for that one. You're going to get a public apology. All righty, let's go to Barbara, who's calling us from Cherry Hill. Hi, Barbara, you're on radio times. Hi. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning to this. I'm really eating it up. I'm loving it. I was born and raised in South Philadelphia, moved all over South Philadelphia most of my life, but we settled in my later years. I guess I was about 10 on 8th Street, 2600 between Shunk and Oregon Avenue. Oh, yes. And I stayed there well into my 20s. And I have such wonderful memories of South Philadelphia. As they mentioned, the movies, we spent every weekend going from one movie house to another. The Colonial, the Jackson, the ideal. We used to call it the eye dump.

I don't know. I don't know. Marys Pizza, Fury's Pizza, the steak houses. We just had such a wonderful time growing up in South Philadelphia. It was a beautiful way to know people. Like they said, everybody knew everybody. Everybody cared about everybody. You could walk the streets in South Philadelphia at midnight and be safe. Nobody bothered you. My father had a small business down there at 7th and tree for as many years as I can remember. We had a small welding shop. And I had uncles and cousins on the police force. We just had a wonderful time growing up. Nobody cared about how old you are. If you were two years older or two years younger or five years older. Everybody talked together and played together. We just shared everything. I remember when my mom had surgery one time. And the neighbors never even thought anything of it. They would bring food over. They would have to keep the meat. So she said, to see if we needed anything. If she needed shopping done. Nobody does that anymore.

Barbara, I think you're making everyone jealous that they didn't grow up in South Philly. Go ahead, Joe. Barbara, have a question for you. Are you sorry you moved out of town? You better believe. You can always move back. Barbara. I've been living in Chery Hill now for 20-someod years. And when somebody says to me, where are you from? I say Philadelphia. I say Philadelphia. And there's also another market I'm Jewish and we had a decent Jewish population in South Philadelphia. We had the Seven Street market. Oh yes. And from Argonne Avenue to about Snyder Avenue, a lot of try goods and things like that, a lot of clothing shops there. Right, clothing shops. We had the Agen cheese shop there. We had the Army a Navy store there where I bought my first pair of Wrangler jeans. Oh boy, you're just on a roll here. I'm telling you, now you're in. Oh no. Marty was asking. Marty was asking earlier about other stories to tell and you could go right back to South Philadelphia and tell a very wonderful story about the Jewish community there, which was very prominent. It's just the possibilities are endless. Right.

We're going to have to move on. That's right. But I want to thank you for the time and with the book. Thank you. Tell your friends to watch the night, Barbara. And I will watch. I'm sure she will. Fabros Seed. Thank you. Thanks a lot for calling it a radio time. A couple of open lines at 215-923-2774 if you'd like to get in the staff. It's nostalgic with us today on radio times. We're talking about South Philadelphia, specifically South Philadelphia, Italian style, which is the name of TV12's latest production, which we'll make its debut tonight at 8 o'clock. But we know that many people here in the region have links to South Philly and they may not be Italian. Again, 215-923-2774, we're joined by Ed Cunningham, Joseph Sparaglia, and Agnes Bonomo Viso. She nailed it. It only took me half an hour. I'm a slow learner. What can I tell you? Actually, Jackie Posey is typing all sorts of things into me here. A listener wants to know about the festival in which kids climb a greased pole in South Philly. That's right.

Okay. Agnes Bonomo. Right on him. Back yard, oh my. Tell us about this. This is in the yard. The lot that is next to me, which has the Visim URL. Once a year, the Italian merchants, they hold this festival and they have all kind of food and music and all kind of historical things that have, you know, from the past, the children in the neighborhood or out of the neighborhood, they come and they climb this greased pole, which the city puts up in the light pole. Does anyone ever get up it? Yes, they do. When they hit the top, they get super-sides and money and provolone and it's really, you know, it's really something for them to, they really look forward to doing this. This is like, you're the champion. If you get up there, where did it start? I just wanted to ask, by the way, before we go any further, just to explain super-sides.

You mentioned that, but for those who don't know, the regulation is in order here. Oh, super-sad is delicious. Of course. This is my husband's special to Eric Christmas. It's very hard for him to really come up with the right recipe. I think the sherry finally made it. It's chopped beef and seasonings, all kind of garlic and herbs and put into a casing and then it is air-dried and when the finished product is marvelous, it's wonderful and the Italian bread or any kind of bread, a little provolone and super-sides. Even super-sad is a kind of a South Philly way of saying, was it super-sad day? That's right. Yes. It's wonderful. I'm wondering, too, for those folks from out of town, if we're going to talk about famous people with ties to South Philly, does just hear a list if we can. If we want to confine ourselves to the Italian portion of the population, it's quite a list. You know, of course, Bobby Rydell, of course, who was the host of our show, by the way,

returned to South Philly to help us tell the tale, Fabian, Frankie, Avalon, Al Martino, of course, is from there. So many others have helped me out a little bit with any of these, I've forgotten. That's about four pages, where they're going to book. Yeah. A little bit morally. Soljay, my friend, who I'd like you to say hi to. Absolutely. I'm wishing, wow. Yes, he's just recovering. That's right. Very, absolutely. But the list is not endless. I had a comment in there about the Ed Sullivan show. Yeah, yeah. Now, that's not a Philadelphia tradition, but it was a tradition to watch, because 99 percent at a time, somebody from South Philadelphia was on show, and it was someone dancing, entertaining and something. At that time, South Philadelphia was predominant in the entertainment field. That's right. That list I gave you was just the Italians, of course, many more, but then the Jewish and the Irish, there were so many others who contributed to entertainment from South Philadelphia. The list is certainly very long. Well, the lines have filled up.

We should get right back to the phones. We have Mike, who's calling us from Morse Town. Hi, Mike, you're in radio times. Good morning, guys. Good morning. Good morning. And Gals. Right. I had a situate, by the way, I'm like Barbara whenever somebody asked me where I'm from. I don't say Morse Town, I happen to say South Philly, and everybody in the country seems to know where that is. Oh, sure. And they make a distinction between Philadelphia and South Philadelphia. I grew up, my father was 100% disabled from the Battle of the Bulge. I must have had 20 fathers. And the guys that, or on your show, will know this, they're certain strata in South Philly by, in the guys. And it's kind of divided by age. And the biggies over at Gene Stakes adopted me and they told me everything I needed to know. And frankly, a lot I didn't need to know. Well, it always goes like that, doesn't it, Mike? You did it if you needed to, but it was wonderful. And one time a woman who lived on our block, caught me smoking and ran home and told my mother and my mother bought me a packet of camels and put me on the street on the step. And she said, nobody will ever report you for smoking again.

She made me smoke the whole pack. Did you ever smoke again, Mike? Yeah. It's backfire. You liked it. 1947. We got a TV. We still had an ice box that gives you some kind of an idea about our family values. But the whole block would come in. And we'd all sit there and watch the boxing or Ed Sullivan, whoever was on. In the end, my father decided to move because they raised the rent on the house from $11 to $15. Oh, my gosh. No, what was it? That was in 1955. That was in 1955. Eleven to $15? A month. A month? A month? Full house. Not an apartment. Full house. A whole house. And we moved over to, uh, to Marlton, uh, but it was just a wonderful place to grow up. Yeah. It was, uh, we had a club over at O'Pall and Snyder. I was the only Irish guy out of about 20 guys. They named it the Sham Rocks. And you're on it. That's great.

A lot of clubs. Go ahead, Joe. And one last story. We used to play, uh, I played for the little Eagles and we used to let Chad more be to stuff a couple of times a year, because they had guys like 22 on that team. Yeah. Well, they cheated. Did you say the Avalon was a quarterback or one of the teams and the time he wasn't singing yet, he was still a trumpet player and he'd start to play by saying, don't hit my lips. And did you say little Eagles, Mike? Well, he just said it. Okay. Just checking. It never leaves you. Wherever you go. Moist now. Can't teach you how to talk. It's probably too late for you, Mike. Well, this is the first time I've ever called this show and I really appreciate your call. Sure. Thanks a lot for calling in. Thank you. Does anyone want to add anything to what Mike said? And it's interesting how nostalgic everyone's getting on the air here. Ed? Well, just one thing I want to say about the subject of nostalgia. There certainly is a lot of that in this program tonight, but I will say that it is different from any of the shows that I have done so far, which are strictly nostalgic. And that South Philadelphia is not just a subject for nostalgia.

Much of what we cover still goes on in South Philadelphia is still a vibrant community. I'm very happy to say that that is not a subject that is strictly nostalgic because South Philly got its character over 100 years ago and it's still a place with great character today and still going strong. So I just wanted to point that out. Yeah. And I wonder how much do you both you and Joe and Agnes, how much things are the same and how much they've changed and whether you're comfortable with both? Real short story. How I started my books here, we had a party in my home and one of the guests was a neighbor. I asked her as a good host, what would you like? She says, you know what I really like, a waffle, like the waffle man made. Now if anybody knew the waffle man, he made homemade waffles on his cart right in front of you. Put an inch thick block of three flavored ice cream sprinkled with white powder, trigon and trigon 15 cents. You actually have a very nice mouthwatering description of the waffle. But the problem was one of the young men there, fact her son, he said what the heck is a

waffle? We spent 15 minutes drooling and explaining it to him and just started going off on all kind of angles. He says, you know what? Why doesn't somebody write a book about this so I know that's how that started. So is it still going on today? Absolutely. I wish the waffle man was still around. I know his daughter, I've talked to her, and he retired at 88 years old. And he literally had a cart and my go from street to street. He pushed the cart from ninth and walkins and as far as he got by the half a day and he come back. And whatever he did, he did on the cart. One thing he had in his batter that they don't have today, a healthy sprinkling of love. That's right. That's right. Because if you didn't have a nickel or a dime or a quarter, you got the waffle. Wow. I'll pay you tomorrow. I'm like, is he called out the heavy waffles coming get get your neck. I do remember that. You remember saying agnases? I really do. He had a little light hanging from his cart and it was he had a little clang the bell and it's time for us to go out and buy it.

Yeah. It was wonderful. And one of those mouthwatering parts that I maybe think it was that the waffles were warm and ice cream was just kind of gently melting through the waffles. Oh, boy. Okay. We talked about peppers waffles. I think we should get back to the phones. Let's go to Joan who's calling us from Balakinwood. Hi, Joan, you're in radio time. Hi, how are you all? Good morning. I think you're fine. Very good. I have one question for Gerald about the waffles man that is bugged me for years since I grew up in South New York. I grew up like an android. Okay. How did he keep the waffles hot and the ice cream cold and hot? He never kept them hot. He made him fresh. Yes. I know. With the light bulb hanging. No, no, no, no, no. He had a grill. Yes. How did he keep the ice cream cold and the waffles? Oh, the ice cream he had in a little insulated refrigerator as it were. Like a chill box. Okay. And he took the ice cream from the freezer wherever he had it in his house and put it in the chill box. Okay. But the waffles, he only made him six at a time.

Yeah, I knew that. And slipped the grill and one day when he was making six more. A very complicated operation. Very good. Very good. I'm sure. Thank you very much. Thank you though. Thanks for calling in. Let's go to Frank who's calling us from Derby. Hi, Frank. Do we have Frank? Yes, we have Frank. Hi, Frank. You're on radio times. Good morning, everybody. Good morning. Good morning. I am a Catholic priest, Irish by descent, but I was stationed in South Philadelphia back in the 40s. And the pastor of St. Mary Magdalene's parish, whenever he couldn't think of the name of anybody, one to call, he'd just yell out, yo, while yo. Oh, while yo, right? I've never heard that from anybody else in the program before. Was that one senior, my zone, ain't it? That was my senior, my zone, ain't it? I'm glad you mentioned that I couldn't remember his name. Absolutely. But true, it wasn't. He was the St. Mary Magdalene's. And that, of course, his father is the first Italian national parish in the United States of America established really back in the 1850s. There are a couple of churches, a couple of buildings that had stood on that site ever

since, even before the great wave of immigration, there were a small number of Italians in Philadelphia. And as so often happens, too often happens, even in the church, sometimes they were not to feel welcome by the people who were already entrenched in the cities. So they contacted Bishop Newman at the time, and he authorized their first Italian national parish at Seventh and Montrose, and it's there today. It's still there. Well, I did a lot of research, Father. I'm very happy and self-filling. Well, I appreciate your call. Thank you very much. Thanks a lot. Thank you very much. Sure. Bye-bye now. Let's go out to Skipak, and we have Paul waiting on the line. Hi, Paul, you're on radio times. Hello. Thanks for taking my call. You're very welcome. I wanted to mention to the gentleman there that they're forgetting one of the most important tribes of South Philadelphia, and that is the Doors. Whenever I come to Philadelphia, I live out on the suburbs, and I'm a Italian descent, and

I've gone into South Philly routinely all my life. Whenever I have anybody from out of town, we go to Pat Steak. And one of the things we do is we write up and down the streets to look at the Doors. People live in row homes, and there's not a lot of attractiveness to them. And so they go, and they spend a lot of money on these beautiful Doors, and if you ever wrote up and down the street to find that every Door has its own uniqueness, and I think it's a real special part of what's going on down there. That's a very good point. I've never noticed that, but you're right. Paul, go ahead. You've been to my home, man. Yes. When I put my new front up, or had it put up, I didn't do it personally. My wife insisted on a door, and I said, but she says, I don't care what you've got to spend on, the door and the frame is $750, so Paul is absolutely right. Doors and windows, the front windows are very important. Very important. You want to add to that, Agnes? Yes.

Is that true from your experience? Oh, yes. I think you could tell that people live inside by looking at the outside, and the way they're decorated, you know, you could usually tell what kind of household that is. Your house is decorated now, isn't it? Oh, my household is decorated for every moment. Let me decide, Walt. Oh, yes. Oh, I have the beautiful decoration. The biggest decoration for Walt. I was going to say you should tell us I am so very proud to have the rhythm. You're all on my wall, which anti-grifetti had approached me two years ago. And people of the Italian market signed the proposal. The Rizzo family agreed, and this all took place. There was a beautiful dedication. The mayor was there with the big mayor looking over his head. And it was really an honor to have this. It's a beautiful mural. And it's a wonderful tourist attraction. And I listen to the people as they walk by, you know, only saying beautiful, positive things about this. And it makes me very proud to have it on my wall.

And well, you should be. There are a few people who have the opportunity to have a tourist come and look at the side of their house. That's right. That's right. You feel like you're watching down over you? It certainly do. It's around a close second in a Liberty Bell. That's right. That's right. You know, I'm thinking too. And thank you, Paul, for calling in besides doors. Thank you, Paul. It's what people choose to put in their windows as well. And I notice, as I walk through South Philly, is that, again, this kind of signature about what you stick in your window and what that says about you. And every holiday, every season, every occasion has a set of decorations. That's right. And the whole room in my basement is just full of decorations. I can't move now. Well, I want to talk about the subject of windows for just a moment, but in the case of opening windows. And that's why the spring and the autumn in South Philly are my favorite times of the year. Because, as you know, in the winter and the summer, they're closed. And the summer for the air conditioning and the winter because to keep the heat in. But in the spring and the autumn, you do yourself a favor, especially on a Sunday afternoon. Take yourself a walk up and down the streets.

And when the windows are opened up a little bit, and the aromas of garlic all the way start wafting through the air. When they're making Sunday dinner for perhaps at one or two in the afternoon. Boy, I'm telling you that is one of the great sensuous experiences of life in the city. Well, I would think maybe some music wafting out of the windows as well to add some flavor to those wonderful recipes. Well, let's get back to the phones. And we have a friend who's calling us from Manchuwa, another neighborhood here in Philadelphia. Hi, Fran, you're on radio times. OK, I want to add a little bit more to the waffle story. Oh, please do, Fran. Fran, Fran. And I think he forgot a little bit about the fish man that came around with the cards. He's in the book. The knife sharpener man. He's in the book. He's in the book. It's funny because I was at a senior citizen meeting the other day. And we were sitting around talking about all this and stuff. But I do have a funny story for you. My uncle worked in a bakery shop. And on his way home from work, he had two loads of bread under his arm. So he got on the bus and he didn't understand a word of English. And the bus driver kept saying, two pennies.

Two pennies. And my uncle says, pennies. Who he's offering him to two loads of bread under his arm. I know. Well, much better bargain than the two pennies. That's right. That's right. How about Chao Chao? Anybody remember? My parents told me about the Chao Chao man who had come around. It was a kind of relish. Well, that was brought around. And you would actually have a vendor who came around. This was in the old days. I don't remember this myself. But my parents told me about this. And they would sell you Chao Chao. It's something for your dinner or your lunch or whatever. Here's one for your Jewish listeners. And I say this with all due respect. Certain times of the year, they use horse radish. And a lot of people can't make horse radish because it's very potent. In fact, my friend Harold said, if you make it the wrong way to wallpaper come down. Well, it was a man that came around. And he sold you a horse radish root. Weight it. Ground it there. You took it home. He did it outside. And he had to stand upwind. It's very, very potent. How about potent? How about javella water?

Javella water will eat you. That's not food. That's not food. Javella water, man. Yes. Javella water is about 50 times as strong as Chlorox. It's not diluted. And if you use this straight, you have no clothing. You don't melt it. I mean, literally smell this person going. No, no. It's a bleach for clothing. Like a half a cup will do a whole load. And a gallon will last a month. I've seen people try to pour it in straight. No, no, you're rolling your clothes. They'll just destroy it. Right. Eat them to pieces. But these were all the vendors. Yes. Yeah. Hundreds of vendors. Absolutely. I remember the ice man. Sure. And I remember when the milkman delivered in a small white bottle to the cold cream. Have a tickle of bottles early in the morning. It was almost like an alarm clock. You remember the peanut vendor. Yes. And I roast the peanuts on the cart. And as soon as you smell them, yeah. I didn't go out my bag. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you to the folks. Thank you, Fran, for calling. We have Al, who's calling us specifically from 11th and Wolf. Hi, Al. You're on radio time. Oh, good morning. Good morning. Yeah.

Thank you very much. You're very welcome. I just want to talk about the movies. Yeah. Yeah. It was one on Nelson called a temperate in a Nelson. That 1931, a close. 1931. Yeah. That's the gas station now, right? That's right. Yeah. Remember to do it, though. Uh-huh. That's right. To do it on 10th night. And, uh-uh. And, uh-uh. Joe? Yes, sir. And there used to be a trolley. There used to one from, uh, one of our men's together to, uh, uh, one of those parks out there. All the way on our men's together, you'd take the two of our trolley. Two of our trolley. That's where we had to hold it. That's where we had to hold it. That's where we had to hold it. And we used to have horse troughs. The fourth is Sean's 13th of fact. Sean Brod Street. Ten the book. Yes. Ten the book. Yes. I'm telling you. You're saying horse troughs. Horse trough. Horse trough. Yeah. And there's horse and wagon vendors. And through the city, they didn't have cars. They had cars very low. So, they built troughs for the horses to drink. Drink. Right. Yeah. The kids used to drink out of the food, y'all. Yeah. Well, they ran all day.

That's right. You know what I'm saying, right? There was a candy man in front of the colonial. There used to be a lot of old shows there. Exactly. White soup. Uh, yeah. His name was Nicky. All made candy. Right. And you bought the candy with like a penny. You got a bag of candy. Right. That's right. Yeah. You know what, El, we're going to have to move on. But I appreciate your call. All right. Thanks for calling. Thanks a lot. Thank you. Bye-bye. Uh, that's good. Eileen is calling us from Washington Township. Hello. Hi, Eileen. Hi there, Joe. Hi, Eileen. How you doing? This is the Rich's mother. Hi, Reh. Hi, Eileen. Hi, Eileen. Thanks for being with us, Esther Dog. I'm calling from the store. And I want to tell you that a lot of people come in here. And it feels like South Philadelphia. And I said, you ought to call this area South Philly East. Eileen. I think that's why there are even more people. And there are really, really lovely, lovely people. Marty, let me tell you- It's special. You know, let me tell you about Eileen. Her store was the original Texas winters, at 15th and what's Carlisle and Snyder. Where the guy used to line up six or eight or ten winters on his arm. And as he was making them put the longness in it-

Right. Just line him right up. Line him right up. Open his arm. Now- People do it over here in Washington Township, Bridal's said Harbor Road here. have a fabulous product. If anybody's in that neighborhood, I'll give them the address of whatever. But it's a unique thing from South Florida. Is he still lining them up a down the arm? Yes he is. 15 we're talking? No, no, maybe 6 or 8. But they have a great facility out there. And if anybody lived in South Philadelphia, they were hot dogs when I remember them with 10 cents. Well, they're a little more now. I think it's just as good. I think everybody's over here too. And nice talking to you, Joe. I mean, great. Thanks for calling. Tell Rich I said a whole lot. Thanks a lot. It sure is. But isn't fill it up? It's just the biggest town on the planet. It's one of the biggest cliches in the world, but it's also one of the truest in that it's still a very much a city of neighborhoods, which are viable. And a lot of people, it's a city that you are from and that in many cases you come back to. And that's why I think that this could be the show

that we are doing certainly should be the first of many others. That could tell the stories of many neighborhoods and many ethnic groups. What was it like for you Agnes to be part of this project? And are you now a star in your own neighborhood? Oh, I would, Mrs. Maggio called me this morning and said, oh, a celebrity. I said, oh, yeah, I'm going to be on radio. She said, now you're in the magazine section of the Philadelphia Inquire. I said, well, now with a voice like mine, you never know. I might have it be the second nanny. But Marty, I do want to tell you that someone mentioned the trolleys. And as a young girl, the trolleys used to come down 9th Street. And I used to wake up every morning to the clang of the bow. And I also have some awareness. I remember the old, the little old ladies with their shopping bags and buying and getting on the trolley again to travel home. There's a lot of nostalgia. A lot of love, believe me. Well, it's interesting how one memory begets another memory. I think we really heard that. That's how one book begets another book.

That's right. Well, in that note, I thank all three of you for joining us today on radio times. Our just flew by. Thanks very much. And thanks to our collars as well. And the books we're talking about authored by my guest, Joseph Sparaglia, one is called Yo, I remember that, the waffle man and the waffle man part two. And if you're interested in South Philly, there's a lot of really great stuff in there. And thanks also to Ed Cunningham, who's the director producer of the film, which airs tonight on TV 12. It's called South Philly Italian Style. And you can see it at eight o'clock. Also, thank you to you, Agnes. Thank you for having me. And Agnes Bonomo Vizzo grew up in South Philly. It lives there as well. Well, that's it for the first hour of radio times and shifting gears in the second hour. I'll be talking to first time novelist Thomas Kelly in the second hour of the show. Scotty Williams, the engineer for this hour of radio times. Jackie Posey is the associate producer of the show. Tamika is the producer of radio times. I'm Marty Moss, co-ain. And this is 91 FM why FM Philadelphia serving Pennsylvania, New Jersey

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From National Public Radio News at Washington, I'm Carol Castle. President Clinton proposed today an expansive program to improve the nation's highways, saying it would help build better lives for Americans. The president's proposal would increase core highway spending by 30%. The National Economic Crossroads Transportation Efficiency Act, a secretary later said, known as NextT, authorizes $174 billion over the next six years to improve our bridges, highways, and transit systems. It will create tens of thousands of jobs for our people, help move people from welfare to work, protect our air and water, and improve our highway safety. The plan also calls for increased spending for autosafety, environmental cleanup, new transportation technology, and helping people move from welfare to work. Protesters in Kinshasa's idea today burned the American flag and demanded that the expulsion

of the U.S. Ambassador and his staff, Saerian soldiers moved in to break up the demonstration when the flag was burned. Meanwhile, Washington issued a travel warning for the 550 Americans in Saer. Rebels have taken over about one-six of the country over the past five months, prompting frequent expressions of concern from U.S. officials about the stability not only of Saer, but of neighboring countries. Washington has made it clear that it does not support an international force for Saer, and that has upset many Saerian officials. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, on his first visit to Moscow, says he perceives much closer ties between Russia and Israel. From Moscow, NPR's Andy Bauer's reports. Noting that Israel now has more than a million Russian-speaking citizens, Prime Minister Netanyahu told a news conference that his country and Russia can put aside their old hostility and cooperate on scientific and commercial ventures. Netanyahu said he discussed the possibility of Israel buying natural gas from Russia, and he also raised Israel's concerns over allegations

that Moscow is helping Iran with missile and advanced nuclear technology, which Russia denies. No one is safe. If such a regime acquires ballistic missiles and atomic weapons, undoubtedly we would be the first target, but we would not be the last target. And referring to growing tensions back home, Netanyahu said he is, in his words, fed up with accusations that Israel is violating its peace deal with the Palestinians. He contends the Israelis, unlike the Palestinians, have consistently complied with their obligations. I'm Andy Bauer's, in Moscow. Russia's lower house of parliament has over-helmingly approved an amnesty for Chechens and others who took part in Chechnya's secessionist war against Russian forces. Parliamentary officials say the amnesty declarations main aim is to win the release of Russian prisoners of war by exchanging them for Chechens in detention. On Wall Street, the Dow Jones industrial average is down 14.62 to 7,070.93 trading is active, 116 million shares, the Nasdaq composite indexed down 7.09 to 1309.67. This is NPR news.

The Atlanta General Constitution is reporting that the FBI has warned of more bombings in Atlanta. The report says senior FBI officials have told Georgia lawmakers that the press and responsible for bombing a clinic that performs abortions and a nightclub will likely strike again. The newspaper also says the agency has warned potential targets. The report adds that agents offered congressional leaders no conclusive theories as to why Atlanta is targeted. They have suggested the city's international exposure from last year's Olympics is one possibility. A senior UN official in Beijing, today warned that North Korea faces its worst famine crisis yet this coming summer. NPR's Mary K. Max dad reports from Beijing. North Korea says North Korea is bracing for a particularly hard summer and needs more

than 1.5 million tons of grain to make up for the shortfall caused by last year's flooding. North Korea says the UN is appealing for international donations of food and other aid worth about 50 million dollars to help avert the very real threat of famine. The Mississippi River is at its highest level in Memphis, Tennessee since 1937. The Army Corps of Engineers says the system of levies and other river control structures will protect most inhabited areas from flooding. Even while people in southern Illinois are keeping an eye on the Ohio River as it rises even higher, the Ohio is expected to crest an old Shawnee town tonight at 22 feet over flood stage.

This is National Public Radio News from Washington. The estate of George S. Knighter in Hetfield P.A. supports 91 F.M. Snyder's offers a unique blend of friendly service, home decor, outdoor living, and home improvement products. The estate of George S. Knighter, Hetfield P.A. 215-855-2131. I'm Marty Moskowane and welcome back to Radio Times. Every time you turn on the faucet in New York City you should thank a sandhog. They build all the tunnels in the city and that includes the tunnels for water and sewer as well as for cars, trains, and subways. It's also responsible for constructing the foundations for most of the biggest bridges and buildings in New York, including the Brooklyn Bridge and the Woolworth Building. They work 800 feet below the city streets and until the publication of Thomas Kelly's debut novel Payback, very little has been known about them. Kelly worked as a sandhog for a number of years to pay for college and his book is about

two brothers caught up in the battles between unions and corporations getting rich during the construction boom of the 1980s. One brother, Patti Adair, is a boxer turned mob tough guy. His brother Billy is entering law school and dreams of making it out of the neighborhood and his past while he works as a sandhog. Without giving too much of the plot away, the book has been called a macho tour de force and has been likened to the novels of Elmore Leonard and Emil Zola. Kelly does work as a sandhog anymore after graduating from Fordham. He went on to Harvard and the Kennedy School of Government. Once the early 80s Kelly has been active in labor unions working for the teamsters and for a nonprofit organization. He's also worked in the Dinkins and Clinton campaign, joins us today and radio times to talk about himself in his new book. Good morning, nice to have you with us. Good morning, good to be back and filling. Great city. Yeah, it's a good city. Phone number 2159-2327-742159-2327-7474. I'd like to begin by having you read a section from the beginning of the book where the

brother goes deep into the tunnels of New York. Okay. This is an opening scene in the book where the younger brother is just back from college and he's going to work one last summer as a sandhog before he goes to law school. And he's just about to go into the tunnel. So I'll just read this. I'll give you a little bit of sense of what it's like in the tunnel. Billy and the others stepped on to the cage and the bell man shut them in. One rang the bell, three short for men on board and too long for down. Billy watched the walls of the shaft go by as they picked up speed and uneasiness settled over him. His heart gained a few beats as they plunged away from the night. It was something he often felt dropping into the earth knowing that his father had once made the same trip and had never seen the sky again. He went to work one night and was buried beneath tons of bedrock, his body crushed beyond recognition. Billy always thought the little slap of fear was his father's way of urging him to get out of the business to get an education. He knew the feeling would pass once he reached bottom and started to work. His father had been the first of 23 men killed building water tunnel three, a body count

that made it the most dangerous job in America. Billy was three at the time. His father came to him as a vague recollection, a warm presence. The rest was filled out by pictures and stories told by friends and family co-workers. The old timers, when they saw Billy, would pull back slightly as if startled by a ghost. Billy's face, turning from boy to man, had become his father's. When he was made uncomfortable by the resemblance he saw in family pictures and yellow newspaper accounts of the accident twenty years before. The shaft darkened as they descended, leaving the surface lights behind. The egg grew damp and flat and tasted like chalk. As the cage neared the tunnel, lights from beneath them reached up and Billy could see the outline of the other men. The cage reached the bottom of the shaft and stopped. Billy stood for a minute and looked out at the tunnel, blasted through the ancient bedrock of Manhattan. He was 800 feet beneath the city. His lamps near the shaft cast dead white light. Strings of incandescent bulbs lined both sides of the tunnel, fading into the mist. The wet air was a garot of diesel fumes and rock dust.

The tunnel bellowed with sound. Water pumps sucked and spat, diesel motors, some knew and finally tuned. Others old and struggling, rumbled and coughed. High-voltage lines buzzed and air compressors hissed. Hoses and wires and pipes ran through the tunnel, a tangle of conveyances. Peas, noise like the scream of a construction site, jammed it to a subway station. Billy winced and paused to put his earplugs in. He noticed the metal stretchers, complete with body bags, propped up against the tunnel wall next to the bell shack. They perched like vultures waiting for carry on. A first aid kit emblazoned with a red crosshug in a nail. Someone had painted safety first on the wall around it. And that's Thomas Kelly, reading from his debut novel called Payback. I must say, when I first read that, my palm started sweating. People really don't have a conception to go down there. The first night is, I remember the first night I worked in a chamber that's not quite as deep. It's about 300 feet down. You get on the cage and you go down, even hearing about your whole life, and we're going down and down.

We get to the bottom and I turn to this Irish guy standing next to me and say, how deep are we? It was about two or three. I look at him, I say, feet. He goes, no, 100. Where do you think we've been for the last few minutes? Yeah, and the main tunnel is even farther down. There's been many instances where guys will shape up, they call it, and they'll come to work. These are usually pretty rough and tough guys. They'll get on the cage and they'll go down and they'll stay right on the cage and just point up like, take me out of here. If you cluster a file, it's a bad place to be. Well, did you ever get rid of that kind of fear that you mentioned in that reading? Yeah. I guess it's like maybe you talk to cops or find me. The minute you start thinking about it, you're finished. I've seen one time there was a near miss, almost was a very bad accident and this one guy had been working for about 15 years, he never came back, you know. So sometimes if it gets to that point, you probably shouldn't be there. Well, it must require a certain kind of person to do this kind of work. I mean, wouldn't be me, I can tell you that. I mean, you'd make a fine sandhog. No, no, no, no, I have to go right back up again, but what kind of people get attracted to this kind of work?

Well, you know, a lot of it in New York, at least, you know, there's, you know, sandhogs all over the country, Philadelphia and, you know, Boston, Chicago, Seattle, wherever. In New York, it's very much, it's always been sort of a father and son thing. So a lot of the kids grow up and you know, their fathers were sandhogs like the character of the book, their grandfathers. And it's, so it's like a family craft in a way, you know, so you're brought into it that way. And, you know, the funny thing is most of the sandhogs don't want their kids down there, but, you know, it's usually the kids that want to be there. So, and then other people just, you know, it's, you know, it's tough work, but, you know, a lot of guys like it. Pays well, though. Yeah, it pays very well. Yeah. Yeah. The word sandhog. You said that you can actually look that up in the dictionary. I meant to do that before on the air today, and I forgot, but the, well, there's two types of tunnel construction, main types, soft ground or compressed air, and then there's hard rock mining, which this book describes. And when they dug out the riverbed for the foundation of the Brooklyn Bridge, until they get down to the bedrock, they're working a press there and they dug out the riverbed with silty or sandy. So, it's a term sandhog. I mean, it's sort of a nickname. The real name of the local is a tunnel work as a miners, but sandhog is kind of stuck,

so they use it to describe all the tunnel construction. You also have written about the fact that a lot of this stuff has gotten automated. I mean, you still need certain people doing certain kind of work, but there are now machines that are what drag down these tunnels. No, they're actually constructed on the ground. What they do is they're called moles, and until recently, like, I just, the tunneling I described in this book is when I worked the first stage was still just old-fashioned, hard rock mining. It's like you would see in a coal mine, just drill, blast, and muck. And muck means kind of digging them out, yeah. And now they've been using moles for, I don't know, probably 25 years, and soft to ground. And the rock underneath Manhattan and Brooklyn in particular is some of the hardest rock in the world. So, the steel wasn't quite up to being able to be used, but now they used them all. It's just incredible. I described it as an underground gravel factory. It's not three blocks long and has a big, and it works like an electric razor, you know, the blades is 40 cutters, and they shave the tunnel face. And it's just a production. It's like five times as much as the old days, and you know, it's safer, which is good.

But it gets so hot from the rock being so hard down, it's like 110 degrees in the heading now with the way it works. So, I mean, it's still hard and nasty work. You described it as the most dangerous work in America, or certainly building this tunnel number three, where a number of people, more than 20 people died, and you dedicate the book to them. Yeah. I mean, you have construction and mining in the same place, you know, in both dangerous professions to begin with. So, and, you know, like I said, with the new technology, the only two guys have died in stage two since they started with the mall. I mean, that's still too, too many. Yeah, I hate to, you know, I'm not trying to trivialize it. On the first stage, I worked on 21 guys with Killed, so, yeah, it's tough work. How close did you come to getting, if not Killed, uh, yeah, you don't spend any time down there without, I ended up in the hospital a couple times, I crushed a finger once, and all the time I got hit when a beam fell, but, um, there was a, there's a scene in the book where they were working in a shaft and some, they're cutting the structural, and the steel falls. That was based on something that actually happened, and no one got hurt at that time, but it was a rather scary experience.

Well, I would think that kind of danger would create a camaraderie between the guys. I assume we're talking about guys. Yeah. I mean, there's been a couple of women that have been operating engineers in the tunnel, but not as Sandhawks. Yeah. You know, it was incredible, because I would, I worked for a while as a Sandhawk, and the things got slow, and I went out and did regularly construction again. And, you know, you sort of yearned to be back down the tunnel, because it's just a different level. I mean, there's a lot of camaraderie on construction jobs being with, but a lot of it's very fleeting. I mean, you'll be on a job for a month or six months, and these guys are together the whole lives, really. They work 30 years together, so, um, it's a little bit different. What's the longevity, though, because I would assume if it's like working in coal mines, you're talking about inhaling dust and debris and things like that. Yeah. Um, you know, it's amazing. I see some of these old guys have been doing it for 30 years, and you get, you don't get in the tunnels, you get what's called silicosis. It's a white lung, and it's from breathing silica dust, and it can actually kill you in a matter of... There was a tunnel built in West Virginia in the 1930s, and it was through rock that was almost pure silica.

It was about three and three quarter miles long. And during the construction, 460 guys died from silicosis, and then another 1,500 died shortly afterwards. And that's because they were drilling dry, and they didn't really understand the disease at the... Well, they understood it, but they made it like they didn't... Drilling dry meaning... Meaning they don't use water. Like, usually when you drill, you inject water in through the drill, and it keeps the dust down. So that reduces. But still, I don't know any sandhugs, the retired guys, who don't have silicosis, or casins, disease, which they get from working and compressed air, and, you know, they've all got arthritis and rheumatism, you know, and I see them. Are you hunched over doing this kind of work? No, it depends. I mean, the third water tunnel is 24 feet in diameter, so it's a huge thing. But, you know, there's other tunnels drifts, so off the main tunnel, that was six and eight feet, and shafts that were six feet. So, yeah, it depends. Do you wear stuff over your mouth just to, I mean, protect yourself from the possibility of silicosis? Well, they give you the white cut and whatever they made a mess. Go wear it? Yeah, I mean, if Diaz is really bad, you wear it, but the thing is that the masks don't stop the smallest of the microns that do the most damage. So, I mean, your system rejects the bigger particles anyway, you know?

So, yeah, I would wear it, you know, some of the other guys wouldn't, but. You did skyscraper work, right? When you were up at school in Boston, which, is that the opposite? Yeah, well, you know, someone once told me if I was two inches taller, I'd be scared of walking around town. I don't like heights. I mean, I've done, yeah, I've done all kinds of construction in skyscraper, it's mostly concrete work. So, you're down more at the bottom, then? Oh, no, no, you do come home. Oh, you do come home? Yeah, you pour the floors a little bit. It's another one that makes my palms wet. That's what I do. But can you get comfortable with that, or is it, or is it you're so aware of the fact that you're so high up in the air that you can't forget your surroundings? Yeah, I never got comfortable. I mean, I had to force myself. It was like I was doing the high steel like dying work, that's insane. Right. You know, I'd rather shoot myself. Right, right. Just get it over with. But, you know, you're a pine, it's sort of like you're always aware of it, you know? And other guys, you know, guys walk down beams like the middle of Broadway, I don't, you know.

There's some people haven't, some don't, you know? Well, let me reintroduce you and our guest on Radio Times today is Thomas Kelly. And his first book is a novel, and it's called Payback, and it's based in part on his experiences working as a sandhawk in New York City. And it's also about all sorts of struggles and battles between unions and corporations. And it's also about two brothers, one called Patty and the other called Billy, and they're sort of mirrors of each other. And of course, linked by the very powerful pull of blood. And Thomas Kelly will be a Jean's bookstore tonight at 730, and that's at the King of Prussia Mall. If you'd like to join our conversation, perhaps you've done this kind of work, and you'd like to add something to what we've been talking about. The lines are open at 215-923-277-4215-923-2774. I was interested in reading some things about you, that this pipeline, this tunnel 3, and the kind of work that you did as a sandhawk, was really the route that got you, I guess, out of the quote-unquote, blue collar world and into the white collar world.

Do you see this book as a kind of tribute to that tunnel? Yeah, I think to a certain extent, definitely. I always wanted to write since I was about 15 and 16, but coming from a family where I'm the only high school graduate, my brothers dropped out, my parents dropped out. We didn't learn too many people went to college, right? I started college a little bit older, like 21, and then when I went to college, I studied economics and stuff that I thought were practical. You know, you don't be the only kidding your family to go to college to become an artist. Or a poet or something, be like slapping my mother in the face. So I did my schooling, and then I said, all right, now I'm going to do what I want to do, and I started to write the novel, and I realized that I had some great experiences for fiction. It wasn't like I went out and let me go do some research. It was just that I happened to live the life that lended self nicely to fiction. But when did that happen? When did you make that connection that perhaps there was something in your life you could turn into? Yeah. You know, when I got out of school, I guess about 10 years ago, and I sat down and said, all right, no one am I going to write about?

And you know, I wanted to write. I mean, it was the 80s, and you had a lot of this Sprite Lights big city about like these cocaine, snow and yuppies, and you had a lot of other vanities about these arrogance, Wall Street guys. And you know, that was what was going on in New York on one level, but I said, this stuff is just as compelling. I think, you know, to me, a sandhouse hell of a lot more fascinating than a corporate lawyer, you know. So anyway, so I wanted to write a book about, you know, working people, but also do a thriller and tie and all the stuff with, you know, the mob and that kind of stuff. We know it's funny reading through your book, obviously. When's the last time I read something where unions even were a part of a novel? I mean, that's exactly it goes back to the beginning of the century, practically. Yeah. Well, I saw this woman on TV there and she asked this guy, well, you know, what, why do we need unions anymore? It's like, you know, the answer to that is what has greed disappeared, you know, so yeah, I just, you know, I wanted to do that and I, you know, I'm very grateful. I mean, I was able to work my way through school and make a decent wage and work with decent conditions because, you know, the union was there. So, yeah, I mean, I felt, you know, it was right to sort of pay them back by writing nice things about them, you know, which are true.

But I think, as you just added there, which are true, I mean, I think the impression of unions these days is that, I mean, they may as well be organized crime. That they're, that they're seen as corrupt as the institutions and people so that they're there to correct. Yeah. There's a great, you know, misconception that the unions have lost the propaganda while they lost the long time ago and it's sort of sad. But it's kind of hard to donate, you know, they don't have corporate PR campaigns to the extent that the corporations do. But, you know, interesting, the Reagan Justice Department in the 1980s did a study of organized crime in organized labor and obviously they were looking for it. And they found in this report that less than 5% of union locals are organized crime links. So, I think it's greatly exaggerated, you know, I've, there's nothing more despicable than to me than a corrupt union leader because I mean, it's really the hypocrisy that's happening. Did you take it right out of the pockets of the guys? Sure. But, you know, in my experience, and I've been in four or five different unions, including the teamsters and the laborers, which have always been held up to be corrupt ones in instances they were.

But I mean, the union leaders I encountered were just great hard work in men and women who did the right thing for their members. But, but why do you think, I mean, is it just that the PR campaign, I mean, why do you think that the unions now are belittled? I mean, it's so much a part of our history and they, and they, and you look at many people's lives today, people are struggling and yet they don't turn to unions. Well, I think they would. It's sort of intricate and we probably can't get into it, but the labor law in this country is so skewed towards management, it's almost impossible to organize today and as industries of decline with heavy unionization, it's been hard to replace them. If we had similar labor laws to Canada, England, Japan, or Germany, I guarantee our unionization would double. So we have for the first time in American history, even the robber barons was spot enough to spread the wealth. Less 25 years in America, corporate profits are exploding, executive pay is exploding, and wages are declining. And that's, that shouldn't be happening, you know, it's sort of like, you know, so the people at the top are making more and more and less and less is going to the people actually doing the work. So, I think sooner or later that leads to real problems. The USA today had a cover story where, you know, now we're down to an average of 11 days

of paid vacation in America, and we're supposed to be the most prosperous nation in the world. I don't know. That doesn't make sense to me. Well, did you and your novel want to get to those issues? Because you could, you know, you could write a piece for the, to the New Yorker on this if you wanted to. Well, you know, I wanted to tell, I mean, primarily I want to be a storyteller, you know, and tell a good story. And then if you can weave in some of that stuff, I mean, the one thing about Steinbeck that I don't like is every now and then he would step out of his story and preach. You know, so let it happen in the story, and I think it's, I think you're going to be pro-union or anti-union and love this book, you know, it's not like I'm beating it over the head, you know. And there are instances, you know, when contractors are the bad guys and other times the union is the bad guy. So, you know, I think I was fair. Well, you said you went to storytelling school, not writing school. Who were the storytellers and you're, what, family, neighborhood? Oh, God, yeah, family, neighborhood uncles, and especially in construction. You know, I worked, I was blessed to work with a lot of guys who, you know, grew up in the depression in Fort and World War I and Korea. And from another generation of the time, and really, it endured these incredible hardships and just had this wealth of experience.

And a lot of them were very articulate, they weren't, they didn't have a lot of formal education because they didn't come from time to place where that was really, really available. So, you know, we would, on the job at lunch break, these great storytellers, then we go to bar and cash to check, and it was, it was wonderful. And one buddy, my chickie Doni would say, shut up and listen, you learn something. And, you know, I didn't write best, yeah, yeah. So, you literally just, what, I mean, I don't know back then, where you think if, gosh, I could turn this into a great novel or it was sort of, yeah, it was good company, and it was starting to dawn on me that maybe I have something here, you know, and if I could represent this accurately, it might be a good thing for people to read, you know. And by having something here, meaning, I am living a life that's interesting and people might want to read about it, even if I turn into some kind of fiction. Yeah, exactly. Tell us a little bit about Billy Adair, and this is the character in your novel. I don't know how autobiographical he is or not, but certainly, like you, worked as a sand hog, but also wanting an education.

This is always the scorn question. I think initially, when I first started writing the book, he was very autobiographical. And then what happened was, it was, it became, was uncomfortable to write about. It was too close. I put the book aside for almost three years, and I went back to it, and I was a little bit older, a little bit mature, and he became just another character. I got that distance that I needed. So I mean, we have definitely have some shared experience, but I think a lot of the inner thoughts are his. And, you know, I mean, this is much of me, maybe in the Vito Romero character, as he was in Billy Adair. Right. Obviously, I can't escape being compared to him, and that's fine. But you're saying he was too close. He was what, he was too, he was just too close to write about. You had no distance on the camera. Yeah. I was sort of writing about myself, and it's, it's sort of like, it was very uncomfortable. And his brother is Paddy Adair. Was that based on a composite of people, or an individual that you knew? Yeah. Like, the Billy, just before we passed in Billy, you know, like I was, when I went back and read some of the stuff, I had the fears, I mean, I wanted to slap him, you know. And the Paddy, Paddy was sort of, you know, I've known a few guys that have worked with

and friends who had brothers who were, you know, guys who were ex-cons, who had got caught up and stuff when they were young. Not necessarily bad people, but, you know, we're in a bad environment and didn't make the right choices. And, yeah, so very much a composite of a lot of different people, and then sort of exaggerate the whole, you know, criminal element of it. Well, I wonder whether people in your neighborhood or your family say, that's me, that's me. I know that's me. I've been getting some interesting phone calls from people we met. Such as. Well, there's like, there's one character in there, and at the end, he's a, he's the night watchman, and he gets, he gets killed. And he ready goes, I don't know whether to be more upset, they made me a night watchman or that you killed me, you know, but it was, it was, it was fun to be able to do that, you know, put your friends in there and bump them off. Sure. Well, Thomas Kelly is our guest today, Radio Times, and his new book, it's actually his first book is called Payback, and it's published by Cannot. Again, if you'd like to join our conversation, phone number 215-92327-4, again, 215-92327-4, let's go to Mike, and Mike's been hanging on from Germantown, Hi, Mike, you're on Radio

Times. Good morning. Sounds like an interesting conversation. Sounds like Tom Kelly, you went through the trades about the same time that I did in the late 60s, and are pregnant and work with people who learn their trades in the 40s and 50s. Mike, what trades did you go through? I was a union carpenter. Okay. When the last jobs I had working with the tools for someone else was the, they called it the Chester Bridgeport Bridge then, it didn't have a name now, it's called the Commodore Barry. Oh, yeah. Hang it off. The Jersey Pier, half monkey, half donkey, half crazy, but that, that must sound pretty, he was going down and I was going up and down. Yeah, right, exactly. But I think your nostalgic recollection of what unions were, Tom, when you were involved like mine, has changed the unions today, I think, are living in the age of entitlement just like the rest of the world, and that sentiment, and the reason why unions existed in those days to provide some baseline safety, and you couldn't depend on management. I mean, they'd send you out, they'd send you out 45 or 50 feet above wherever on a

rickety 2x4 if you'd let them. So those, some of those functions have been replaced by OSHA, in fact. So a lot of their reason for being in existence now extends only to the next contract getting more money. Well, what do you think about that? I got to say OSHA is great, but OSHA is an arm of the government, and if we rely on the government to protect us and the job, we're in big trouble. When I was working, the tunnel was actually laid, it was in the 80s, not in the 60s, and OSHA was the most dangerous job in America, when Ronald Reagan came in, they laid off a bunch of OSHA people, and they used to be, they would have monthly site visits, and when Reagan came in, they went to, they were there once in five years. So if we're depending on OSHA for safety, and unions, I mean, there's certainly times when unions are, you know, there's excess and whatnot. But still, I mean, the basic fact is that people are greedy, and as workers, especially, not just in dangerous jobs, and all jobs, you need some kind of protection. Well, I agree, jerk management really needs a jerk union to counteract a point. I remember when, well, it sounds like I'm a little older than you are, I remember when public opinion turned against the building trades almost overnight.

You went from being a respected person to a thug, and that was when the operating engineers and the roofers beat down the fences for Leon Aldimos's job site when he was building the... Yeah, and this is a real Philly story or a Philadelphia area story. That's not just, that just turned public opinion. You went from being somebody respected to a thug, being lumped together with the thug. Yeah, and that's not overnight. Go ahead. I mean, that hasn't happened to that extent in New York, and, you know, if someone's fighting for a job and to put food on that table, I don't know if I'd call them a thug, you know, if someone's, you know, these, some of these contractors, and some of them are great, and some of them take care of their work. Well, what happened, Tom, is from your, my perspective, and I remember being in a union hall when this came up, it's not our work, instead of trying to organize these people and showing that they can earn more money by being, you know, by being part of the group, they felt, they felt it was a turf work. It's my work versus your work. What made them, in fact, sometimes I think the most ridiculous thing is when the union leaders who are involved with that kind of fascism get up there and as an American flag

is part of their bunting. I mean, it's completely un-American to say this is my work and you have no right. But go ahead. Go ahead, Tom. Go ahead, Tom. Go ahead, Tom. Go ahead, Tom. Well, there's an interesting case in New York right now where there's, in Queens, there's an neighborhood that has become a big Asian area, flushing, and there's some major jobs that started to go up there. And the unions went in, and the workers were mostly Koreans and Chinese, and they were paying them six bucks an hour and treating them horribly. And the union went in and said, listen, we want to organize this place, and they didn't like lay off all the Chinese and Korean guys, they just brought them into the union. So I think, you know, it depends, there were times, obviously, when there's this turf war and stuff. But I think there's more opportunities now, and the unions have wised up to the fact that they can't be closed off to different ethnic groups and to women and whatnot. So. Thank you, Mike, for calling in. Again, that phone number 2159232774, if you'd like to talk to our guests, his name is Thomas Kelly, and his book is called Payback. It's a novel, but based in part on his life, working as a sandhug. Again, 2159232774.

You don't want to find interesting in reading about you, and sort of off-putting, but also seems very contemporary, which is that a lot has been made about the fact that you went to Harvard, and you also worked as a sandhug, as if there's this split between mind and body, that you can't be a sandhug and have a brain, or you can't have a brain and have any muscles. You know what I mean? Well, I mean, what do you make of that? Well, there was a great moment when we set my novel around, and we got this rejection letter from one editor, and he wrote, you know, the story was fast paced, the dialogue was interesting, the prose was great, but in the end, I found the characters were far too intelligent for their environment. You know, you want to slap this, I mean, he is living in a world that is so removed from reality. And, you know, the work you do has no real basis on your native intelligence. I mean, I worked in the tunnels with guys that were far more intelligent than most people I met at Harvard, or at Fordham, or working for the president, or anything else. So yeah, you know, I think people make that, we have a lot of myths in America, and that's

one of them that is kind of silly, you know. Well, I like some of the things you said about some of your classmates at Harvard. I mean, I mean, basically what you saw was not a difference of intelligence, but that someone, it was really a difference of class, in which class you're born into, and then what doors that open, and perhaps you know what fork to use, but that's so very different from intelligence. Yeah, certainly. I think there's a, you know, I mean, I've been very fortunate, you know, I mean, I come from a working class family and I've gone on and gone to Harvard, and I've really gotten a great experience and a short time about a lot of levels of society in America. We certainly have a much more of a class society than we ever admit. And at the same time, unlike, say, if I was a coal miner in England, I never would have went to Oxford. You know, it's impossible. So in America, there are opportunities to sort of change your place and make these transitions, so. Well, I understand you were not a very good student in high school. In fact, I read that your average was D minus. Yeah, barely went to high school. We worked, you know. I mean, both my brothers dropped out, most of my friends dropped out. You know, the trucks would pull up in the morning and it went to work.

So I mean, I stayed in enough to barely graduate, but it wasn't because I could, I mean, grammar school. I went to Catholic grammar school. I had pretty much straight age, you know. I just, I was 13, 14, 15, 16, and it was too smart for school. Well, if school had been any different when you've gone there, or was it just the, the law of money, the trucks, the way that it's just the culture, you know, you come from that, I mean, the way you define yourself, if you come from a blue collar back on like that is by working hard, you know, physical labor. And as kids, I mean, you know, we weren't like hanging out and smoking pot. I mean, sure, we did some bad things at times, but, you know, you had pride, you defined yourself by going to work and working hard, you know. So what kind of work did you, instead of going to school, where, where were you working? You see construction, masonry, landscaping, you know, whatever, whatever was available. And do people know that you were playing hooky? Of course. Yeah, we'll give you five bucks now, then they pay us three, you know, wish we had a union there. Yeah, union for, for the hooky platoon. Nobody exploits work as an American. Well, after high school, you, you went west, like many people do. You went to California?

Yeah. I just had to get out of Jersey. We was starting to get in trouble. And, you know, I was 17 and I was one of the go anyway. And so I drove out to California and ended up in a squid packing plant for about five bucks. And I would do that for about a year. Then I got back into construction out there and worked building the Monterey Bay Aquarium, which was a great job and a great company, who took very good care of their workers. Squid packing. Can you get the smell of squid packing? Good work if you get it. Well, we used to stink so bad we would come home and there's about ten of us living in a two bed of house and my one guy that was working with me, his brother who was the older guy in the house. He wouldn't let us in the house. We had a strip in the yard and he'd hose us down and we'd have to leave our clothes yet. It smelled bad. How much trouble did you get? Get into as a kid. Well, you know, we had a lot of fights, you know, a lot of fights wouldn't fight in what the cops or kinds of crazy stuff, you know, just young and stupid testosterone and alcohol. So it would be fighting just after a party, after the bars and, you know, that drinking age was 18 at that time. So, you know, if you were 16, you were in the bars and, yeah, and just, you know, whatever. And, you know, when some guys I go up and end up, I just, the guy came to my reading last

week, who just got out of, you know, did three years of prison, so some guys never pulled themselves out of it, you know, unfortunately, they stayed in it and other friends of it, you know, they're city cops now, so. Well, what do you think, you pulled yourself? I mean, why do you think you went the route you went? Well, you know, I didn't like trouble, you know, I got into it and always sort of regretted it. I mean, I came from a good family, you know, mother and father at home and, you know, it sort of like, it didn't bother me so much, but you didn't want to like embarrass your family, you know, so, you know, I like to read always, and that was sort of a saving grace, you know, because I realized through reading that there's another world out there and, you know, you don't have to live a certain way if you don't want to, you know. I read too that you had a speech impediment as a kid growing up and read a lot. I was a mess. Oh, yeah. I mean, what kind of a story? Believe it or not, I was shy. I just, I couldn't pronounce a lot of consonants, it's about eight, you know, and I think that pushed me into reading a little more intensely as a youngster, and because, you know, like I've stutterers have told me that they didn't have it, they don't stutter when they read, like in their head, they don't stutter, it's only when they're speaking.

So, I'm convinced, you know, it's obviously I'm looking back and kind of guessing, but I'm convinced that it's something to do with it. So it was speaking. It wasn't reading out loud. It wasn't looking at words and not being able to put, you know, CK together and like that. No, not like dyslexia or anything like that. You know, it was just a basic problem with saying things. So what happened? I mean, I guess I grew out of it, you know, and then, you know, I got a little bit older. And, you know, it's sort of like, yeah, it's okay to be a shy kid, but I think when you go out in the world, you got to, you know, and I've sort of come from a place where, you know, everything I've gotten, I had to go out and get it. And, you know, if you're going to lean against the wall, you're not going to get much in life, so. Do you remember practicing, though? May practicing on saying things? Oh, yeah. I had a school that had like a speech therapist, you know, so I worked with her. And then, you know, it was the same thing when I started going to school. College later on, I was convinced I was stupid by this time. So, I mean, I would, you know, I would study very hard and I would like words I didn't know. I would tape them up in the, I heard Jacqueline and it did. So I would tape them up on the mirror when I was shaving and I, you know, increased my vocabulary. And, you know, you sort of had like a chip on you showing the sense that all these people are way ahead of me.

And, which a chip on you showed it can be a very bad thing. It also can be a pretty good thing if you're using it in a positive way. Because you're saying it really inspired you kept your going, you wanted to prove something. Exactly. You know, so. So when did you realize you weren't stupid? I guess when I became a Rhodes Scholar Finalist. So, yeah, I know. I was going to say. But then again, that didn't mean I wasn't dumb. But, by that point, you knew that all these people that have these wonderful degrees from wonderful colleges aren't necessarily that smart, right? Even though you're a Rhodes Scholar Finalist. I've encountered guys with, you know, two PhDs and they can't tie their shoes and talk at the same time or something. But is that true? I mean, that it really, you had to get, you had to get that almost to England to, to England. Yeah, to a certain extent. Because you finally look around and say, wow, you know, this is like supposedly the academic elite in the country. And so, yeah, that sort of, and it changed a lot. Once you get there and then you get some confidence and it's a little bit different, you know. So when did you begin? I mean, as you said, you were about 15 or so and you thought you'd like to ride. I mean, there was something was working on you.

When did you begin to take that seriously and it actually began to ride? Wasn't, I guess when I was about 25, when I finished grad school, I mean, I had done a little bit of, I just came across, I didn't realize I had done this. I had forgotten about it, a friend of mine, an old Sandhawk showed up on my readings with a scrapbook and he had in there a copy of a thing I did for the Ford University newspaper about working on the tunnel. I, the only writing class as I took was expository writing, you know, I never took a fiction class. So I, it wasn't until, I guess it was about 25 when I said, all right, maybe I'm going to try and do this, I might have some ability here. That's a tough thing, isn't it though, to write fiction? Sure, it's, it beats working for a living though. Well, actually, I think that's one of, one of your, either your members of your family or one of the people in the neighborhood that you've gotten a lot of press for this book and they're saying, you know, you couldn't do anything else so you became a writer. So Rousey, Sandhawk, give him a pen. But it is true writing novels is hard. It's hard. You yourself, I mean, you really have to, it's you and that piece of paper.

It's brutal. It's absolutely brutal. And people, everyone thinks, oh, I'll write a book. They tell good stories in one of them, but it's a very different thing. And he said, it was great. I went back to the tunnel recently for a photo shoot and this old Sandhawk, and he was, she uses Tommy. How you been? You know, I said, oh, good, good. I said, I wrote this novel. It's about Sandhawks and the unions and this and that and the organizers. And I said, that's great. That's great. Are you working? That's not what you're going to keep your feet on the ground, right? Well, someone asked me, well, you know, it's just publicity getting there. Well, you know, my feet might not be on the ground, but my friends hands are firmly around my ankles. You're not keeping it down. You're keeping it down. If someone said something about you being an idiot, Saval, or something like that. Well, it was attributed to my brother, falsely. He said, what the heck does that mean? So yeah, it's about that fits. Well, I noticed in your book that it's filled with dialogue. I mean, the dialogue really drives the story. It's a way that we understand the characters as well. And you talked about coming from a family of storytellers or going to storytelling school. Do you think you have a good ear for that?

Are you kind of, are you an eavesdropper? Of course. You're kidding, right? As we steal everything we can. You know, I've literally gotten characters from one line overheard in a bar. I worked in a bar one and one and this guy went after him. The guy comes in and he sits down, we tied a long show with him, and he orders his drink and the bartender comes over and he goes to the bartender. I woke up this morning. I was dumbfounded. You know, so it's like, you know, you can't make that stuff up. So anyway. I think the dialogue, as long as you don't think about it too hard because the worst thing you do is start thinking. Is this how people talk? You let it kind of come through you. That comes to me the most natural of anything. New right things down. You have a good head remembering. You've got to take notes. I mean, I used to try to get away with it, but you forget most of it. How, I mean, with the first novel, how did you work with your editor and that whole relationship you have with people who are going to shape you and edit you and change you? Well, for first time novel, I pretty much had a very complete manuscript by the time I got an agent. In this day and age, it's said a lot of these publishers, I mean, they've been bought up by the big conglomerates and, you know, it's all about the bottom line like many other industries.

And it used to be they would take a young writer and nurture him along him or her. And so for first novel, so by the time I walked it, I'd spent about 10 years on the book by this time. And it really just got over and over and over and over. So I gave them, they got a pretty clean manuscript and a pretty complete story right off the bat. And then the agent worked on me a bit before we submitted it and then I worked against him or the editor. And they were both great. Is that hard to do? I mean, after, you know, you spent 10 years on this and damn it, you know, each and every word is... You're just so pleased that you have an agent and you do whatever they tell you. I mean, there was one or two minor things the editor wanted me to change and I didn't and I came in with what they were. But I agreed with both and I'm almost whole-heartedly. Do you still read long? Oh, yeah. Never stop. Who have you been reading recently? One guy I love is Pete Dexter, who has written some great stuff about Philadelphia, both God's pocket and brotherly love among his other stuff, but those two books in particular I think, you know, definitely had an influence on this book. But I read, you know, right now I'm reading a biography of Robert Penn Warren, a biography of Michael Quill, a mystery by Michael Conley. I read, and, and, and, and I read very widely and I've always done that so.

So is this a macho tour to Forrest, as people say? I'm getting more grief about that coming up. Well, the great thing is I'll tell you the best reviews I've gotten so far have been written by women, and almost all the women I've talked to have read the book have really enjoyed it, which is, which is great because, you know, you write a book about gangsters and constructions where there's only a couple female characters, and although I think the FBI agent I have is a very good female character who worked out well. So yeah, obviously there's, there's sort of a macho world, and not a fake macho world, like, you know, maybe some of these guys strutting around on their ties, you know, they can abuse their secretaries, make some tough guys. Tomas Kelly is our guest today on Radio Times, and his book is called Payback, and it's a novel based in New York, and it's about two brothers, Patty and Billy Adair. One of them, actually Billy Adair, works as a sandhog, and it's all about the construction industry in New York in the 1980s, and he's gotten a lot of publicity on this book. It's his first. If you'd like to join our conversation, have any questions or comments for my guests, maybe even aspiring writers who want to know, how do you do this stuff?

Give us a call at 215-923-277-4215-923-2774. What's it like for you to go on book tours and, you know, go from one city to the other and get thrown in a chair and ask to explain yourself or perhaps answer the same questions you got on the city the night before. It's all new to me. I mean, Boston yesterday was my first out of town stop. Philly is my second, so I'm learning. You know, you're just so grateful, I think, the first time out that people are taking you seriously. They're reading your book, and I'm able to sit here, so right now it's a lot of fun. Maybe someday, you know, he writers get kind of sick of it, but I don't know, I mean, from the end of the time. Yeah. Have a great time. Get to meet a lot of great people and go to great cities. Well, I wonder what you do. I don't know if you're the kind of guy that has to be physically active or wants to stay physically fit. And if you're writing, I don't know what you're writing schedule is, but if you're writing a novel, you're sitting in a chair, either, you know, with a pen or pencil in your hand or in front of a computer, and you're not, you know, you're not getting any exercise

from the other. It's just difficult. I mean, since the Stone Age, I think I'm the first person ever in my bloodline to make a living without sweating, you know, I mean, literally, you know, so, and it was a hard transition for me going from like working physically where you had a sense of like, you could feel it in your whole body. This is what I did today. So the writing, I mean, I try to, you know, I used the box, I still do that a bit and I run. And yeah, I have to be physical. I can't, if I go more than a couple of days without doing something, I mean, even if it's just going out and taking a long walk, I go crazy. You can feel the, what the tension is still going up in you. Yeah, definitely. You know, it's, I mean, I've been physical my whole life, so it's, I can't stop. I don't, you know, some people get to date and I don't drive me crazy. So is writing, is writing feel like real work? I mean, yeah. Yeah, it does, you know, but it's, it's, it's a heck of a lot more difficult than even digging tells was in some ways, obviously, and physically, it's easier, but it really, you know, I, I can only spend about four or five hours a day and then, you know, you drained after that if you've been doing any real work. So yeah, it's definitely, it's a lot harder than it looks. Well, I've noticed from, from writers, I've interviewed that many of them have rituals.

They have certain things that they do to get themselves into that chair and, and to keep them going, even if they're not productive that day, that they, they need some thing, they've lucky pens, they have special coffee cups, things like that. Do you? Oh, God. No. The first, um, this novel was written over such a period of time where I, I did what I call, uh, guerrilla writing, you know, I mean, I never had a set schedule. I was always working and going to school, working crazy jobs and, you know, so I would write 20 minutes one day, then I would write it two weeks and I'd write for 10 hours one day. So, so now for the first time, I can kind of do this, uh, full time. I'm, I'm, I'm getting into a pattern right, trying to write every afternoon and obviously doing a book tour. I'm not doing anything. Right. But you find afternoon is better for you. Yeah. We're a swing shift guy, you know. Okay. Well, let's take some more phone calls and just stick those earmuffs on. We have, uh, looks like cadence calling us from Germantown. Yes. Hi there. Hi.

Um, I'm curious about, um, where as a writer, you feel that the responsibility towards the community ends and the storytelling begins? That's an interesting question. There it is. Go ahead. Um, I think, you know, first and as a novelist and, and foremost, I guess it should be a story teller, but I mean, if you can do, if you can get some other stuff across and, uh, you know, and do something that sort of, I mean, like, for instance, if, if nothing else comes out of this book, but people understand, you know, what Sandhugs do and their contribution, um, to the cities that would not exist literally without, without their work. So I mean, it's kind of nice to be able to do both, you know, and not all writers do. Some writers just want to tell a story and other writers want to, you know, maybe they preach too much. Well, you're saying you, you want to avoid the, the trap of preaching because it really does break the spell if you're talking about a novel. Yeah. If you're good story teller, that should all come through the story. Are you, are you, are you a writer cadence? Um, not really. I'm an English major so I'm just curious about it. All right. All right. Thanks for calling it a radio time. Let's, let's go to Roland, who's calling us from Wilmington, Delaware. Hi.

Hi, Roland. Um, I just wanted to say, uh, to Tom that, um, I work for the transport workers. Uh, my, my grandfather was a charter member of that union, T. W. T. W. local 234, uh, great, great, my quill made many visits here to Philadelphia in our labor contract. Sure. And, uh, you said you were reading his autobiography? Biographer, yeah. Yeah. Where, where would you get that? I'll tell you what, if they take your address, his wife actually wrote it and it's a much better book than I would have expected. Uh, I can get a copy fully and send it to you. Oh, I appreciate it. It's, it's out of print, but I'm sure I can dig one up. I, I'm friends with some of the guys in New York and the union. So we'll get you one. Yeah, great. Now one more comment. Go ahead. Um, I was reading a book. I took a labor course at Penn State and it was a merger of the AFL CIO in 1955. Yeah. I think it's by Temple Press. Yeah. I got a temple bookstore. You can, uh, you know, that was quite an interesting book. Yeah, I like to pick up here because Quill was a big obviously a CIO guy and, uh, quite, quite a character. Right, right.

Good man. Good man. Yeah, but I appreciate the, uh, the show. It's real good. That's good. Well, I'll tell you we're going to put you on hold and that way we can, uh, get your name and address and, uh, get you that information. Thanks. Thank you for following into radio times. Okay. Good luck, Tom. Thank you very much. All right. All right. Bye-bye. Let's, uh, stay down in Wilmington and we have John waiting on the line. Good morning. Hi, John. Hey, John. Um, Mr. Kelly, uh, there's a certain similarity between what happened in your life and mine. The mine was about 40 years ahead of you. Uh, I found out I went to trade school, kind of, uh, working with John, I went to trade school. And I found out I was smart. I hate when that happens. Second in the class of air cadets. World War II. Uh-huh. All right. After that, I went to school. One of the schools I went to was Florida. Ah. I picked up a couple of doctors, of course, at the time. All right. In the last 10, 15 years while I traveled extensively on company business, I always write on the better plane in the motel and things like that. And I have a wonderful collection of rejections. Many, many.

I could paste a wall with them. How do you go about getting an agent? Uh-huh. Uh, you know, you got to understand agents are looking for writers, you know, because you're there where they're bread and butter. So it's not as hard as what you need to pick up a, they have these listings of agents. I mean, I got my agent very, I met someone out of wedding and was telling her stories. And she said, well, you should be a writer. And I said, well, as a matter of fact, I got this manuscript and she gave me a guy's phone number. And I almost broke his door down. But, but I mean, you know, they're always looking for stuff. And they do read, you know, uh, cold submissions that come over the trans. I mean, that's how they, you know, I walked into this guy's office and boom. You know, so he was very happy. They're very happy to get good stuff. Okay. How do you get explicit agents? Um, if you go to library, there's, there's actual books, you know, if you go to a library, I'm sure they have it just asked for. I don't know the name of it, but there's, there's directories of agents. And what, and what they do is they'll describe what kind of stuff they represent. And you pick a few that represent. And these days you can do multiple submissions. I mean, it used to be you have to send it to one and wait for them to get back to you. But, you know, I would feel free to send it out to 10 different people. And you're saying that agents really specialize.

Some do mysteries. Some do. Yeah, you'll see. And these directories will list that, you know, I mean, if you, if you wrote a mystery, you don't want to send it to someone who represents cookbook writers. You know, so they'll let you know that. Right. Good luck, John. Thank you very much. Thanks for calling in a radio time. Bye-bye. Did you take writing courses? I took two expository writing classes in college. I never took a fiction course. I think, you know, I don't think people can teach people how to write. I think they can give you an awareness of language and what good writing is, what bad writing is. And I think writing classes are more for just the camaraderie and people sharing their work. And I didn't do much of that. And maybe I should have. But, you know, I don't have the time. But, but you don't think, because you certainly see books, classes, courses, whatever on, you know, the ten easy steps or maybe ten difficult steps to being a writer. But you're saying, I mean, I assume there's certain things you have to, you have to be aware of. But, but the actual style, I guess, and content. What comes from you? Yeah. I'll tell you, you know, it can be as simple as I remember picking up a book, how to write a novel. Right.

And, you know, you can pick up a tip here or there. I mean, it's sort of like everyone comes to it differently and everyone approaches it differently. So, I mean, whatever works best, I mean, if people comfortable taking classes, I mean, I think that's great. And if other people want to sort of like, I did hold yourself up for ten years and we left that. I feel like humiliation. If you don't like humiliation, you shouldn't be a writer. I'll tell you that one. So, if we were to take a course with you, in a sense, it would be over by now. Yeah, yeah. Well, it was a great quote by this guy, Tom McGuin, who's a great writer. He said, I've done a lot of horrible things in my life, but I've never taught creative writing. I know that you were involved in some political campaigns. David Dinkinson, New York, and the Clinton campaign as well. What do you get from that? What do you get from a political campaign? Because I think, I don't know, at least from the outside, it seems so fake. Well, politics in America has quite sadly become advertising, plain and simple. It's very cynical. It's very deceptive, just inherently. I mean, basically, you can't be an honest, it's very, no, you can be. There's some very good politicians in this country.

But it's very difficult in this environment to be an honest person and succeed in politics. And that's really a sad fact of life in America. If it was up to me, I would outlaw all media advertising for politicians and get them on the back of trains and make them do whistle stops again to the people. And did you see that firsthand? You worked as an advanced man, which is what? Well, you sort of paved the way for that stuff. Well, Dinkinson, yeah, I was sort of a directive of advance for his campaign, which meant, every time he left Gracie Mansion or City Hall, I set up the trip and got him in and got him out and did all the research and said, it was a lot of fun. It was crazy. In a city like New York, Philadelphia, I'm sure the same thing. You run in 16 hours a day and that part of it I loved. I mean, the action, it was great. But you probably heard the same speech over and over again. Yeah. We should sit there and yell than it behind me. But you get to the point where you get real tired of smiling at people you'd rather slap. Because you're dealing with everybody's got to hand out. And these politicians, they work a lot harder than anyone really has a conception. Dinkinson at the time, he was 66 years old and we would go from five in the morning to midnight every day.

No vacations, no days off. So, you know, he can have the job. Yeah. But from your experience on the inside, have you soured on politics? Yeah, I really got tired of politics. Like it's the mechanics of it I loved. You know, but it would be the same if I was setting up a rock concert as a political event. So, I mean, that stuff I love. I mean, I still think, you know, there are a lot of good people that are really fighting for good causes. And I'm glad to be out of it. It doesn't mean I won't get back in. If there's a candidate someday or an issue that I really feel strongly about, you know, I might get back. I went to a dinner the night in New York and I got four job offers from different candidates for this. Did you really? Yeah. Did being an advance man or to write their novels or coast write their novels? You know, I never told anyone's writing a novel. So, all these people who know me from, you know, either the Sandhugs or then from doing put it where I couldn't. You wrote a book. Well, I wonder too, with all the talk about campaign spending, whether when you're working that intimately with a politician, with an elected official, you see that money being spent, don't you?

Oh, yeah, it comes and it goes. Yeah. And it gets, especially in the heat, it's so fast paced and crazy. And, you know, this whole thing about, I haven't followed it too closely. But, I mean, these contributions come in. And, like, you know, you get a check and of course you take it and then you put it aside in the bag. And then you go back and try and say, well, wait a minute. This guy is, you know, Joe Riley who's hooked up. And, you know, it's hard. A lot of times it slips by. You don't realize who you get the money from it first, you know. Even other novel you're working on? Yeah, yeah. I've got one that's, I haven't worked on what's these last few weeks. But, that's a bit to do with city politics and, and funny fundraising and union pension funds. Oh, is that right? It should be a few nervous politicians up there in a big app. And they know who they are, right? That's right. Well, as you said, it's this first novel is about 10 years coming. And I wonder whether you get, I don't know, superstitious with the next one around. As I say, you know, you're getting a lot of press on this. People are interested in you. What's my next trick?

Well, I mean, it does bring a kind of self-consciousness. Yeah. I would think. The soft more jinx. Yeah. I think in a lot of ways, you know, I think I've learned a lot from right in the first one that mechanically would be easier for the second one. But yeah, there certainly is a lot of pressure to say, right? Am I really a writer? Is this the fluke? Am I a one-shot wonder? Well, find out. And I like to torture myself. No, I don't even pursue on that. And I thank you very much, Thomas Kelly, for joining us. Thanks for having me. You're very welcome. The book is called Payback. And it's published by Kanoff. And Thomas Kelly will be at Jean's bookstore. That's tonight at 730. And they're located at the King of Pressure Mall. Again, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Philadelphia. Yeah, thank you, Philadelphia. Well, coming up, it's the, in the next hour of 91 FM, it's Car Talk. Then at 1 o'clock in the Derek McGinty Show, a conversation with former US Senator Bill Bradley. The weather forecast for today is mostly sunny. Temperatures highs of about 46 to 50 degrees tonight. Mainly clear. And it looks like the clouds will increase towards the morning, though, lows 26 to 30. And then for Thursday, becoming mostly cloudy, highs 44 to 48.

Scotty Williams, the engineer for this hour radio time. Jackie Posey, the associate producer of the show, to make artists the producer radio times assistance today from Donna Simmons. I'm Arty Moscowane. And this is 91 FM, W-H-Y-Y FM, Philadelphia. Serving Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Delaware with NPR News 24 hours a day. . . .

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