Environment, Race, and Class: The Poisoning of Communities of Color; Part 1

. . . . . . . . . Good afternoon.

In the last few years increased public awareness has become focused on issues concerning the environment. But at the same time that citizens are being encouraged to recycle their glass and newspapers, a dramatic shift is taking place in the political agenda of the environmental movement with a new focus on environmental justice. A new dialogue and debate is being heard over the fact that people of color are most often the most directly and severely impacted by pollution, toxic dumping, and often by the negative impacts of the mainstream environmental movement itself. Good afternoon and welcome to Environment Race & Class, the poisoning of communities of color. Later on in today's program we will be taking live phone calls from our audience, both here at Channel 27, and also on KUNM Radio. Right now I'd like to introduce the panelists for today's program. In the studio today are Richard Moore, co-director of the Southwest Organizing Project here in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Also here is Mike Guerrero, field organizer for the Southwest Organizing Project.

Rosanna and Joel Monge, from concerns citizens of Sunland Park, from Sunland Park, New Mexico. Welcome to today's program. Also in the studio is David Luchan from the Tonanstein Land Institute here in Albuquerque. Anna Frazier is from citizens against ruining our environment based in Dilcon, Arizona. And also here is Gene Gowna, co-director of the Southwest Organizing Project here in Albuquerque. Mike? I think you said it framed the issue very well in terms of the changes you could say that are now happening within the environmental movement. In our organization and the work of our organization and others around the country, we've begun to make it very clear publicly that these issues that we're talking about in terms of environmental justice have existed for a long time. And our organizations and communities have been fighting these struggles for several years. What I've been asked to talk about primarily at this point is the military and the impacts of the military in terms of that and the consequences for our communities in terms of military pollution that have been going on.

I think the first thing to keep in mind, an important thing to keep in mind, first of all, is to recognize that globally, it's recognized that the United States military is the largest polluter globally. Whether it be in our communities here in the United States, whether it be in third world countries around the globe and also the role of the military in terms of pollution in Eastern Europe. This also includes, when we're talking about the military, not only the military bases, but also the industrial complex itself, including the Department of Energy. Now, here in New Mexico, what are the consequences of that or what are those consequences for communities here in New Mexico? Again, I think very much so that the impacts have been primarily on communities of color in New Mexico. There's still the situation in Mountain View, which has had a lot of attention publicly over the last several years.

It's a groundwater contamination that has existed in this small community just to the south of the city of Albuquerque. It has existed for over 30 years. To this day, officially, there's never been a declaration in terms of whose cause that pollution. But Curtlyn Air Force Base, which is upstream from the community, is still a likely source and still a suspected polluter. Mountain View has some of the highest nitrate contamination in the country, the highest levels of nitrates. It nearly caused the death of a child in the community in 1980. And it has been the result of the subject of numerous investigations by the federal government, by the Air Force, and by the state to try to determine where the problem has actually come from. We began negotiations with Curtlyn four years ago in conjunction with the Mountain View Advisory Council, organizing residents so that they could have a voice at the table to be able to meet with Curtlyn Air Force Base and federal and state agencies to try to come to a resolution of the problem. And it hasn't been easy. It's been a struggle for the last four years.

The department in terms of the Department of Energy, the impacts that we're seeing now, people, of course, are very much aware. Most people are aware. I'm sure of this situation now in terms of the tumor cluster that's being found in the Los Alamos community. But there's also an untold story that hasn't been received as much public attention over the last several years. And that's the fact that primarily Chicanos and Native Americans in the surrounding communities, and those that have been working in Los Alamos, have been working in the most dangerous areas of the laboratories for many, many years. And the impacts on those communities of story in terms of how those communities have been affected has not been told. The Department of Energy itself released its own report, an internal report that said that, in fact, Chicanos are going to be putting the most dangerous areas of Los Alamos national laboratories. And little by little, we're starting to see more and more what those impacts have been, what the results are in the environment, what the results have been on the workers in Los Alamos, and what they've been on the surrounding community. Sandia National Laboratories itself has about over 100 contaminated sites that are at the laboratories there, different nuclear dump sites, different problems in terms of hazardous waste handling and dumping that's gone on there for many years.

And now Sandia's latest proposal to dump radioactive waste in the sewers in the city of Albuquerque to deal with its radioactive waste problems. They're being told by the Department of Energy that they can't dump anymore on the ground, which they've done historically, and they can't keep it up in lagoons that they've done for several years now. So now their solution is to put that burden on the city of Albuquerque to deal with that problem. So the question for us, again, is what are those impacts, what have those impacts been on the surrounding communities, what are going to be the impacts as more and more of these things continue to happen. And these time bombs that have been planted there for years and years and years on Sandia National Laboratories, Los Alamos National Laboratories, Curtlyn Air Force Base, and on and on down the line. Again, I think it's important to realize that in New Mexico, we're talking about a military colony. An article came out in the business section a couple of days ago where it said that one out of nine jobs in New Mexico are tied to the Department of Energy.

What does that mean, this dependency on the Department of Energy and the Department of Defense for the economic livelihood and this dependency that's been created over several years. What does that mean in terms of when communities begin to demand accountability from the Department of Energy and the Department of Defense when they're hanging over our head that we're providing one out of nine jobs in this state, and that's the Department of Energy alone. So over and over again, we've seen our communities being blackmailed, being told that because we're providing the jobs here in this community, you don't have a right to tell us how we conduct our business and how we make you work or where we make you work. And I think again that we're seeing the consequences of years and years of that. The nuclear cycle begins and ends in New Mexico. It'll be completed once the website is open and once they start bringing in the waste, the uranium mines are here, the research and development facilities are here, and now the waste isolation pilot project is here. So New Mexico is incredibly vulnerable through the nuclear industry, through the Department of Energy and the Department of Defense.

The final aspect of that I think is also in terms of the high technology industries that have been developed in this state that are integrally linked with the military industrial complex when we're talking about high tech industries that are producing the components, the computer components to develop weapons for the United States and for our defense. What have the impacts been on the workers again? Gene Gannon will speak to that more in depth later and also we have videos showing what those consequences have been on the workers and the surrounding communities in New Mexico. We do have a videotape that we'd like to present. Maybe you can give us a brief introduction to that. The next issue that we'd like to touch on is the issue of toxics on Native American lands and how it is. It's also a reality that today Indian communities are being targeted as waste dump sites. They're being approached by a lot of private companies and also government agencies for the sighting of toxic waste dumps, hazardous waste dumps and incinerators.

Anna Frazier is here from citizens against ruining our environment in Dillcon, Arizona and she'll talk about the work that they've done and the successes that they've had in fighting off one proposal in terms of an incinerator in Dillcon. This video was produced specifically about the situation in Dillcon and the struggle of the people of citizens against ruining our environment. So maybe we can run that and it will explain itself in the Nana Frazier can add more. Thanks. Indian land is being threatened by toxic waste companies looking for new locations to dump or burn their poisons. Recently several toxic waste companies approached the Navajo community in Dillcon, Arizona, promising jobs and prosperity. The company representatives tried to convince the people that the project would not poison the land. The people of Dillcon, like many of us, were faced with the choice.

Emergency response control application. But we've been doing this for 15 years and we are expert in this field and we say that there is no zero risk because we all I took a risk in coming here just driving up from Phoenix. He took a risk in coming here. There is not that zero risk option. But there is science and there is physical science, chemistry, technology available today to rid that. And that's what we really are goal and mission life. We believe in the salvation of that waste product. And if we can reconstitute it and renew it and rejuvenate it into a marketable thing, you know, when people looked at me years ago, they said, he's passed saving. You can't help that boy because I was pretty wild. But after I changed, they said boy, he's the best guy in the world. They didn't know me the way I was before. Ask what we're saying about these chemicals as well.

That was the way it was proposed to us. At that time when it was proposed to us, I thought it was a dump site for a community to burn trash. Then my children informed me about the dangers involved in it. A few months ago, we had learned from a newspaper that there was going to be a waste dump, toxic waste dump brought to our community. A few people that feel the same way I do, we came together and formed a committee called Care. Care stands for citizens against ruining our environment. One of the things that they're trying to do and proposing to build the site in our community is that nobody else in the country wants it.

I believe that they had the idea that because we're minority, we don't usually look at it as not being able to defend ourselves. I believe this was the idea they had. But I'm glad that we got involved in this and opposed to this construction. The exploitation and destruction of Indian lands and peoples by companies interested only in profit is nothing new. For example, the reckless mining of uranium and coal has left a legacy of poisoned people, land, and water. The price the people and future generations will have to pay is far greater than the empty promises made by these corporations.

There's been a high level of birth defects in some parts of the floor corner area and that while there's nothing to directly link that yet to the uranium industry, it is interesting to note that it is following a distribution pattern similar to where the uranium mines and mills are. I think there are some connections, but I'm not sure where or how. It's something that we have heard so much about on the non-horiz evasion with all the mining, uranium mining, and the past mining activities. People are just not aware of this at all yet. Their jobs depend on those companies and anything criticizing those companies, people are just not open to further study and the effects that great radiation may have on them or their children. When I took the job they didn't tell me it was dangerous.

I used to come home from work covered with uranium dust. It contaminated my children because we didn't know it was dangerous. I probably ate it sometimes. So I have felt a tremendous amount of grief. But now what is it doing to me? Toxic waste companies are targeting Indian communities like Dilcon because they've run into a wall of resistance elsewhere. Communities everywhere are becoming aware of the dangers of toxic chemicals and toxic waste and are fighting for the law. Good afternoon. You're listening to Environment Race and Class, the poisoning of communities of color. This is a simulcast with Community Access Cable Channel 27 and KU&M Radio.

Anna Frazier is a representative of citizens against ruining our environment based in Dilcon, Arizona. And I perhaps you can talk to us a little bit about the tape that we just saw and listened to and the extent of environmental toxic pollution on the Navajo reservation. Thank you very much. I'm very happy to be invited here to share some feelings that I have that my group has that's care citizens against ruining our environment. And because of the toxic waste dump that was going to be created, well that was proposed to be created in Dilcon, Arizona, the Native Americans in that area became aware that this was not what they want for their area there. And that's how care originated. And we Native Americans love our land, our country. And we're very spiritual people.

And if there's any pollution or anything that's going to be threatening to our land, we have, I think we have a right to say or to stop whatever is happening out there. And right now we have some plants out, power plants out there that have been causing pollutions. And we also have people who have been approaching the Navajo reservation to build toxic waste dumps and asbestos disposal and all these kinds of things. So the care group has been very much involved in fighting against these types of threatening organizations or plants to ruin the environment that we live in on the reservation.

We've been involved in several issues within the state of Arizona and also in South Dakota. And right now some of our people are up in Minnesota and advising or just being a support to other organizations that deal with these types of toxic waste dumps that is threatening their area in their community. So what our concern right now too is that the asbestos disposal that's planned in the four corners area around herfano area and that's the eastern part of the Navajo reservation. And we feel that because our Indian people are illiterate over half of them are still illiterate and because we probably, we have all that government land that's available.

Well people think from the outside that it's available to build disposable dumps but we who live on the reservation don't feel that it's life threatening to us for people to think that they could come in and just build whatever they want there on our land because we do have livestock. And like I said too you know we are very spiritual people and we are very close to the nature and different areas, different sites that's on the reservations throughout the country on the Indian reservations. And so we have a lot of sacred places around herfano area because it's one of the most sacred mountains and it's very threatening and we very much disagree with how people just take us for granted like they come in and want to build something like that right there on our land.

So having to include especially the grassroots people to listen to them, the grassroots people are the people who are kind of like the soul of the Navajo reservation and they know the creation story, all the spiritual aspects that go along with all these sacred sites that I mentioned. We were just very concerned that they were not included in the negotiations period when they plan this and so we are very much concerned about that and we plan to continue to raise this issue and fight against all these types of toxic waste dumps that they try to propose on the reservation. Now you have formed an organization which is citizens against ruining our environment. Have you been successful in preventing these waste dumps from coming into your community?

Yes, we have been successful. The toxic waste dump that was proposed in Dilcon, Arizona back in 1989 which we were not aware of at the time that all the plans took place and we did defeat the proposal and stopped it because of our, we spoke out and banned together and had demonstrations and we had hearings and the Navajo people didn't realize that it was going to be a toxic waste of poisonous type dumping place. They didn't realize that they thought it was just a trash dump where you take your garbage and things like that but that wasn't so. I guess maybe there was no one really to tell them about it until we heard about it and the newspapers and the news that this was coming and so we all had to get together and plan, strategize as to how we're going to do the demonstrations. So we educated our people in that area about the toxic waste dump there that was going to be built and we defeated it and we have, like I said, been a support to other groups throughout the country in South Dakota and right now, like I said in Minnesota, they're having a conference there right now.

So we've helped the people in Phoenix area too. Now, were these private companies that are proposing to bring these toxic dumps in? Yes, these are private companies that have been wanting to come in. I think the reason I see behind that is that they feel that the Indian people are not uneducated where they probably think that we can't defend ourselves and we have all the land available and we're a third-class country type of a country out there so they think that they can just come in and overrun us and build plants like this. Another place where a toxic incinerator has actually been operating is in Sunland Park, New Mexico.

And this is also another place where citizens have organized to raise the question of toxic pollution that has been generated by a toxic waste incinerator. Here in the studio today are Rosana and Joe Monge, who represent concerned citizens of Sunland Park. And we'd like to hear some information about the toxic incinerator in your community and what folks they're doing to confront this issue. I guess I can give you a little bit of historical perspective. We actually didn't realize that this type of activity was going to be placed in our community. In May of 1987, David Martinez, the mayor at the time, was negotiating this activity with the special interests entrepreneurs like Joob and New Max. These people came in and actually bought several hundred acres in the community of Sunland Park. And their intent and purpose was actually to build a solid waste dump and the medical waste incinerator.

The people of Sunland Park were not aware of any of the particulars of what the city council and mayor were actually going to do with this activity in the community. The people of the land owners built the first incinerator in 1988 and then the second incinerator was built in 1989. They started the operation and has actually continued to operate 24 hours a day around year-round activity. The political process that we have locally involves the people, the city council, the lawyer, which is Frank Coppler, for Sunland Park. He's also lobbyist for the landfill people. Our state representative now, David Martinez, is also lobbyist for the people in the waste business.

And also Fernando Macias, our state senator, is actually represents the landfill people as their lawyer. In fact, currently we are reaching a peak or a point in our defense against this type of activity through local hearings. We had local hearings in our local area. Then they moved to Santa Fe. We recently concluded those hearings. The thing that was good about this is that the state actually concluded that it was a health hazard for the community of Sunland Park. The final resting point on this matter actually will be in the hands of the governor and also the secretary to the governor.

I thank her name is Expinosa. Rosanna Munga, in what way do you feel that this incinerator is a threat to your community? Well, so far it has been proven in the hearing that it is affecting not only the physical but the mental status of the citizens of Sunland Park. We had over a hundred people give their oral testimony in the hearing saying that it was affecting, let's say, their skin, their respiratory system. They are having a problem with asthma. We also had patients that had been under medical care for this and psychiatric care. Because of their children are being affected, the parents are not having a peace of mind.

The entire of the government within the city not listening and that's how this group came about. Concerned citizens form last year as a group, as an organized group. We were fighting before but it was not until last year May of 1990 that we came about and formed as a group that felt that the government in the city of Sunland Park was not really helping and we decided to represent ourselves against the state or against the government. And we finally got this public hearing that Joe was talking about where we had the opportunity to present the complaints of the people that are having a lot of problems. We had a lady that felt that she is dying. She has lived in Sunland Park for many years. Finally, she has retired and she was ready to enjoy her retirement and she can sustain a city that is being polluted by this medical incinerator.

She has a problem losing her hair, affecting her skin, affecting her mentally. She can tell you right away when this incinerator is going on and she tells you that she is dying and she knows it. She begged the government to listen to her complaint but they were not. Finally, the people in Sunland Park, like she said, are being educated about what is going on with this medical incinerator and this landfill. They felt that only trash from the city was being dumped there. They didn't know that we had trash coming in from California, Houston, or New Mexico from the hospital, and Texas. We feel that if somebody is dumping, then they should dump in their own area or maybe they can find better ways to process this contaminant, whether it's medical or even trash in the area.

Aren't there regulations affecting the incineration of medical waste? Are there legal protections for communities such as Sunland Park from this kind of threat? We felt that we were protected under a city ordinance that says that if a business like this is affecting the health or the welfare of the people, it should be removed. Also, we felt that we were protected under the contract that Numex, the owners of the landfill, made with the city saying that they were making a contract to dump trash, not to burn medical waste. Right away, they were breaking a city ordinance that we should have been enough evidence to stop this landfill. Instead of doing that, the city made an agreement with the people from the landfill allowing them to continue operation until the end of this year, December 31, 1991.

And after that, if they continue operating, they're going to be fine with $5,000 a month, which is nothing. And we don't want that in Sunland Park. We don't want that. The regulations say that if this incinerator can continue to operate, they're going to have to meet some guidelines. But number one, the incinerator got in there and the landfill without a permit. They don't have a permit. And what we want is the Secretary of the State, Mrs. Espinoza or Mrs. Pinoza, and Governor Bruce King to stop this and deny this permit. Because they need to listen to what the state is saying. And the state said that it's a health hazard. So somebody has to listen.

You mentioned that there have been hearings on this toxic waste incinerator. What are your thoughts on whether they will actually close it down? This, I think, really depends on whether or not enough pressure is put on the political process and the people that are making the decision. Another critical thing that hasn't been mentioned, I think it should be mentioned, is that this landfill actually sits on top of Mississa Balsum, which actually supplies the water for the entire area and also to the Mexican community of Ciudad Suida Juarez. The landfill, according to the Council of Mexico, was not supposed to be situated so close to the boundary between Mexico and the United States. Supposedly, there's an agreement that actually situates any type or any kind of landfill activity 100 miles away from the borders. If geographically you look at the area, it's actually in the hub. It's right next, probably meters away from the international boundary. We also understand that they're also bringing some of the chemical waste from Juarez back into the United States to be dumped in the landfill at Sunland Park.

Some of these things are being looked at, but I think obviously the final decision is going to have to be made by our government in the state of New Mexico. I don't think that they can allow this to happen or continue to happen. The community of Sunland Park is not any different than what is taking place in the reservations. The Indian reservations is mostly Hispanic, low income, poor communities. These characteristics, I think, are what makes some of the people want to do business because they think that a lot of the people are ignorant. The politicians in the area can be bought by these entrepreneurs that come in and actually dump other people's waste, contaminated waste, into the poor communities. In just a few minutes, we will be taking phone calls here in the studio and I'll be giving the phone number out right now and we'll be taking phone calls in a little while.

The number here in the studio is 292-3263. You are listening to Environment Race and Class, the poisoning of communities of color, which is being broadcast simultaneously over KU&M radio and is also being broadcast on Community Cable Channel 27 as well. I'd like to introduce our next guest here in the studio, David Luchan from the Donanstein Land Institute, based here in Albuquerque, good afternoon. David, you're involved in an area that has to do with the conservation of resources and you have some interesting thoughts on some of the activities of conservationists in the more mainstream sense and an area of what we call land taking. What is land taking?

Well, basically in our work, it focuses on the land rights of traditional communities in the Southwest and it's very clear to us and the communities that we work with that. The same process that we've been hearing about is a historical kind of process. It's an occurrence that has happened throughout the Southwest over and over and over. I don't see these people that we're talking about today as entrepreneurs. I see them as absolute highway robbers. What's happening in part of the basic problem in terms of our communities, the affected communities, is the inability to really catch up to them. Historically, what happens is that interest who do not have any historical ties to the area to the state, let's say, will look at it in terms of the exploitation that they can benefit from. Not in long terms, but in short terms, so that you get corporations such as Chevron or Gulf or Energy Waste or any number of corporations who are in this kind of business and have money to make, you get them and they look at our political situation.

And they see us as the other speakers have mentioned as not with very much power, not with very much information in terms of determining what's going to happen to our communities, what the impacts are going to be, and with very few resources. So they know that they calculate in their way of doing things in their way of doing business. They calculate very specifically, very strategically, how they can buy the politicians, how they can circulate money to either have people turn away the decision makers, agencies, and then allow them to either violate regulations or get them wavered or so on. So they do what they want to do, and then be gone the next day. You can see it in the four corners area where the uranium companies have come and gone.

I mean, the uranium industry was very, very lucrative in the 70s, and the uranium companies came in, and today they're nowhere to be found. They're selling off their interests, their land holdings to Japanese interests, they're scurrying their responsibility. And so here come the politicians, EPA, and they're saying, well, we're going to clean it up, we're going to provide some money for those people that have been affected. What we're saying to us is that that can't go on anymore. We have thousands and thousands of years of roots here in this area. We can't allow people to come in as high-ray robbers, and go out the next day, and leave us with all this junk, and leave us with a sickness. You saw in the film, it's very, very difficult to imagine the kind of impact that, to have a child affected with that kind of developmental characteristics, and to be poor and to try to work with that child, it's just devastating on a traditional community.

As it stands, has all these things against it, can't find work, doesn't have the kind of housing that's decent, and so on and so on. So from our work, we really try to ingrain first, before all, in trying to deal with these, is to say, you know what, this is ours, and this is our land, this is our Mother Earth, these are our traditions. There's no place we can go. We can't go back to New York, or we can't go to Tokyo, or to California. This is our land, this is where we were born, this is where we're going to die, and we have to protect it, regardless of what it takes. It's our life, and we have to do it to the end. So that's pretty much where we're at, and we can't take any more of this stuff. It's happened with the forest service, accommodating the timber interests, it happens with the Environmental Protection Agency, accommodating the uranium, and the coal industry, and so on.

So we have to say to our politicians, and our decision-makers here in the state, and say, look, these guys are highway robbers. If you found somebody robbing a bank, you stop him dead. You stop him right there, and you throw him in the clinker, because he's breaking, he's breaking, violating the laws. And that's what we need to have our decision-makers, like Governor King, and Senator Dominici, and so on, and so on, to stop these guys, stop him dead, because it can't go on anywhere. I'd like to invite our viewers and our listeners to join in the conversation. If you have a question, or you'd like to make a comment, you can call us on the studio line here at 292-3263. That's 292-3263, and you can ask a question on the air, or make a comment, if you like. David, you mentioned the need for accountability from politicians. Bruce King was elected governor on an environmental platform, and he pledged to follow through on certain promises to address environmental issues.

Do you have an assessment of how he has performed in this area and the time he's been in office? Well, you have to consider again that Bruce King was the governor during the time that the uranium industry was gaining and making quite an impact in the state. As the governor, I think that we as citizens need to impress upon him that it's not good enough for him to use the rationale that we need the monies that are attached with, let's say, the website. To us, it's real clear. He's shuffling on decisions. He's side-stepping on very critical the waiver of regulations and so on. And the reason that he's doing is to get the money that he feels will benefit by the roads that we're building for New Mexico.

Now that we as citizens need to say clearly that that may look as a good, you might say, community or statewide or a social benefit in terms of improving our roads, but at the price that we're paying, it's not. If whip and all the dangers that go with the website is the trade-off, then we don't want it. We can do it some other way. And our assessment is that he's side-stepping the things that he should be looking at. Our phone number here in the studio again is 292-3263. If you're listening to us on KUNM or watching this program on Channel 27, you can join in the discussion with your comments or questions by phoning us here on our studio line. Again, that number is 292-3263. Rosanna and Joe Monga, you talked about some of your elected politicians in the southern park area and their parent conflicts of interest. Is there any move underway in your community to try to address that problem specifically?

This lack of accountability from your elected officials. We've actually approached City Council in the mayor and they don't want to hear the people of southern park. They'd rather play the game of Sino-Evil here, no evil, speak no evil. And primarily because they're actually part of the hierarchy of politicians that are actually doing the same thing. Statement made by Senator Macias, he claims that he can wear two hats, that he can represent our interests as a politician, as our representative, while he actually represents the landfill owners. Let me come back to that. Right now we do have a collar on the line. You're on the air. I'm wondering why do you feel that your Mexico is being targeted in this way?

We'd like to pick that up. Why? New Mexico in particular is being targeted for projects like toxic waste incinerators and these kinds of things. Anyone want to pick up on that? I think it's primarily because it's rural communities and a lot of poor people. I think that's probably the main reason. You need to have political power to stop some of these activities. New Mexico is far. It's the fifth largest state in the union and most of the big cities that do have the political force to speak or say are few. And so many of the communities are rural communities and where local politicians can actually conduct this type of business. David, you also mentioned that New Mexico is a state that is often lacking in political clout and this sort of thing. There have been, I think, several similar type of proposals for, let's say, the state of Texas, but because of the citizen outcry and because they have the political clout in Congress, they've been able to stop those.

Whereas in New Mexico, we certainly lack in those numbers and that political clout. One number again in the studio is 2-9-2-3-2-6-3. Call us with your questions or comments. We do have another caller on the line. Go ahead, please. Good. I was wondering if it would be appropriate for the Bureau of Indian Affairs to intercede on behalf of some of these people who obviously in some cases really can't appreciate the danger of some of these big businesses and their lobbying tactics. And do you want to comment on that? I believe that the environmental protection agency has policies and the BIA, yes, the Bureau of Indian Affairs can only, they do have laws to cover a certain extent of it. But many times they'll approve. To us Native Americans, they're kind of like our politicians, along with our president, along with our council delegates, who are our politicians.

And they do all the negotiations, all the decisions are made in the Navajo capital in Winderock, Arizona. And we are usually the last to know out way out there in the grassroots area. We have approached the BIA, but I believe since we've won, at least one battle on the reservation with Waste Tech to incorporate it down in the Delcon, Arizona, that it's the people we at the local area have to speak out. And if we do speak out, then at least we get someone's attention that goes all the way up to our Navajo capital and then goes on into the state as well.

So do you have some prospects for perhaps in working with your tribal council, trying to maybe get certain people elected to the tribal council that would represent your interest in a way that's more, that's a true representation of what your community wants to see happen? Yes, we do. Like our past administration that we had, our politicians brought in the Waste Tech to incorporate it down to Delcon and they approved of them coming in. So our council delegate from there at that time just tried to get the people to approve it out there in our community. And we had to vote him out. And we have a new council delegate who is representing us, who is very concerned and supports us very, very much so from our area.

Are there any, are there any, any plans or any thoughts, Joe and Rosanna Monge of perhaps doing the same thing in Sunland Park in terms of maybe sending someone else to Santa Fe who might do a better job of representing your interest there? Yes, I think the concern citizens of Silent Park, we are going to work very hard on the next municipal election to try to elect the right people, they have in mind the best interest of the people in Silent Park. But before that happens, right now what we need is for people in the state of New Mexico and outside to call Governor King or send a letter asking him not to issue the permit to the New Mexico to continue operating the landfill and the incinerator in Silent Park. That will be a great help.

Let me mention our studio line here, it's 292-3263. We still have a few more minutes to take your phone calls and put your questions and comments on the air. Whether you're listening to us on K-U-N-M or if you're viewing this program on Channel 27, you can call us and be part of the discussion here on Environment Race and Class, the poisoning of communities of color. The studio line again is 292-3263. Is there any indication as to how Governor King is going to decide on this issue, what his decision will be? We were told that there may be some bias there, we were told that maybe somebody close to him was actually lobby and for the incinerators, how this affects the decision, we really don't know how far it will go. We hope that the first priority is the people's choice, how they feel about this. And so I think that Ms. Espinosa has a very difficult task in front of her if she is looking at the issue of how politicians are reacting to a decision or is it going to be because she is going to look after the interest, the health primarily of the people concerned. Could I add something to that? Sure.

In talking to a representative from the New Mexico Hospital Association, just to give a little background in terms of the hospitals themselves, for a long time, hospitals used to operate their own incinerators. But because of more regulations being developed around air quality and around incineration, just about every hospital now has shut down in Albuquerque, at least there is only one hospital that operates an incinerator, that is the veterans hospital. All other hospitals in Albuquerque have contracts with this company. And as the time goes by, it is expected that every incinerator, every hospital in the state is eventually going to shut down its own incinerator and move into contracts with facilities like Nune Mix. So that puts a lot of pressure on communities like Sonland Park and other communities of color around the state because it's becoming the only game in town and it's a multi-multi-million dollar industry. So the question for us is, why is it that the burden of this issue and the resolution of this problem has to rest on the community of Sonland Park, when in fact the burden of the resolution of the problem needs to rest with the hospitals, and they're the ones that need to come up with the solutions for how they're going to deal with their own problem and not put it on our communities.

And I think that's something that needs to be addressed. But politically, that's the kind of pressure that's on this decision. This decision goes beyond not only Sonland Park, but what are the implications regionally? Is New Mexico going to start becoming the dumping ground for medical waste, just like it will become for nuclear waste if whip is allowed to happen? Is it going to be that our communities in the future are facing more attacks from these kind of companies coming in and setting up these kind of operations? So it has broad implications. And again, what's the issue internationally? What are the implications internationally with Mexico? Mexico also, from the consulate in Mexico and El Paso, center representative to say that they're opposed to this incinerator and this dump also. So it's got a lot of broad implications and there's a lot of political pressure on this, but you can bet that the hospitals are really pushing hard to keep this open because it's the only game in town. But we're seeing this over and over again in terms of economic blackmail, and Jean was going to speak to that also in terms of how over and over again the industries are putting the burden of the problem on our communities and not dealing with it themselves. Very good. Are there any, we have just a couple of minutes left before we take a very short break, but are there any alternatives that have been put forward to dealing with this question of hospital toxic waste?

Well, from what we know of, and part of it came out in the hearings, just like in any issue dealing with waste is always waste to recycle. There's ways to recover a lot of the stuff. A lot of the things are going into this hospital waste are also things that can be separated out, can be dealt with in other ways, and there's new technologies also to be developed. But again, that shouldn't be put on our shoulders to come up with those solutions. If it is a crisis, they're neglect the neglect of the industries and their lack of attention to the issue shouldn't become our crisis. And that's what's happening. They should be willing to commit the resources, the state, and the federal government should impose upon them to take it upon themselves to come up with the solutions that are going to deal with this in a safe way. But the options are there, and if they're not there, they need to be looking for them, and they're not even doing that.

And as you pointed out, that's something that those people that are actually in a position to profit from this industry are the ones who should bear the responsibility for coming up with these solutions to this problem. You are listening and viewing a program.