Conversation with Johnny Shines and Pops Staples

This is KUNM, Albuquerque, and I want to remind you, stay tuned to the Rises program coming up at 8 o'clock. We'll be having spejos just for you tonight and following that after music, but first, stay tuned to this KUNM special presentation. Welcome to live here at the Outpost Performance Space. We are very honored to have Johnny shines and pop staples with us here to broadcast live on KUNM and there is an audience here

and more people can come down. We don't mind the doors opening. Johnny and pop are in town to do a concert tomorrow night at the chemo theater and tonight it seemed like a perfect opportunity to get them together after many years, I guess, of not seeing each other and to talk about the music, to talk about their lives in the music, their 76 years of experience, I guess, in life and music. Just a little introduction when I was thinking about putting this concert together. Last year, sometime, I saw pops on night music. Isn't that the name of the show? I'm with David Sanborn and it was just fantastic and I thought, well, this would be great to have here in Albuquerque and I've known, I met Johnny shines about

20 years ago, my brother introduced me to him in Boston and actually I had seen pops and the staples singers when I was 13 years old in Cambridge. So for me, this is really exciting to have them and then in addition, when I finally traced the pops down, I found out that the people who are booking concerts for him, the Rosebud agency, told me, well, he also booked John Hammond and John Hammond is going to be in the state. So it all sort of came together in this fantastic way that I thought would be great and John Hammond, meanwhile, he's playing tonight, actually, up at the club west and so he can't be with us. But there's a connection there as well because I found out later that John Hammond played his first professional gig, I think, opening for the staples singers at the Ash Grove, isn't that right, Pop? Ash Grove in Los Angeles, yeah. Him and his father and

all of them was there. And of course, John Hammond is a long time admirer of Johnny shines and of all the musicians that Johnny has played with. So that is how the show came about and that's how, to me, it was very exciting. And both pops and Johnny have been, you know, so articulate over the years and talking about their music and talking about their feelings and talking through their music to the world. And I thought, well, let's add a, you know, let's see if they would come together and talk on the radio as well. So I want to thank KU&M for doing this and Mary McConnell and Simon Welter and all the people involved. And also, of course, very much, I want to thank Putney who's up here sitting here at the Outpost Performance Space as well. And Putney Thomas has done so much to make blues happen in this town. So those are a few, just a few introductions. And what, some of the things

that Putney and I talked about, and off a lot of the times with many, many in the, in people talking about blues, a lot of people talk about, you know, things that people have done in the past, older musicians or people who've spent so much time doing this music. And what I wanted to ask both pops and Johnny about was, they're so active presently now. And I was wondering what some of those projects are because pops has a whole new theatrical career. Johnny, you're, I know, recording an album. So that's, let's start with that. Either one. Well, I will be doing the album next month. I'm hoping that we get started next month on the album. Really, I'll be out sometime in September, October, at my age or senior citizen. And I'm blessed to be well and feeling good and able to do an LP and talk about me retiring.

I'm retired, but I never will retire from trying to do something that give people a lift. That's my main obstacle. Doing this is to help people along the way, the ladies of the day, drive along in an automobile. And she was down, down, down in the gutter. She said, and song came on a radio by the state of singers. And that gave her a lift. She said, that gave her, oh, she was happy all day long. So that's what I want to keep on doing. I don't know what John has done, but I think that we're about the same age. And I'm going to keep on getting up myself. I ain't thinking about no return right now. No kind of way. So if you think so, come on out there tomorrow night, you'll see. I mean, John, get to work it over there. And, Pops, you know, when I know that you were in this gospel at Colonies, and a lot of people saw you in the true stories. David Barnes. Yeah, David Barnes film with a little

later live out here in New Mexico. Missed. She was in there with John. What's John? Big John. He's going so big now that he was in the play. John Goodman. Yeah, he was great. We're just, and started from there. And this, this is a gospel at Colonios, that we played too much in Chicago in the play in San Francisco. It's called me to be here today. It's called me to be in Canada next week. I mean, it'd be lots of different places. And more good things has happened to me in my older days. And that's making me get up and go, you know, more and more than I respect to be going this at this time, but it's just wonderful that David Barnes called me in to do true stories. And it's still being shown in different places. So I went from a cotton picker to a gospel singer and singing different

shows and clothes and I told him into the movie. And yes, it's been better. It really blessed good. I'm thankful for it. We are too. All right. Johnny, your recent career hasn't been as high profile as pops, but you've been doing some interesting things too recently. Tell us what you're currently up to. Well, myself, I'm still playing because I want to have a world to hear me. You know, I find so many people who say, they've been listening to my music for 20 years or 30 years or so on like this. You know what I mean? But they just never get into here. They've been listening to it, but they just never get into here. Now that they're hearing it, I feel good bringing it to them. I wouldn't care if it's so I could just play to the whole world at one time, you know? I guess then I've started

to think about a return, but until then, I don't think about a return. Like I tell my grandchildren, you know, I raise a bunch of grandchildren. And I say, I'm going to live here at 118 and where the hell are all of you? It's like you're all worried. You're going to get back at them. You're going to get in the mood. But you're working on this new album that you were talking about earlier. And actually, I read about it, but I think is it called a tribute to Robert Johnson with Snookie Prior? Is that the album? It was Snookie Prior, yes. Yes, it was. But I did a lot of my own material. It's the album completed or is it? The album is completed, yes. I mean, I completed the album and I guess about 12 hours. Wow, that's pretty quick. Did you play with Sticky Prior previously? Yes, I have played with him previously. Snookie Prior played with me on one of my albums.

My own time will go for Pete Welling. Now off to Joe Brown, yeah, we'll meet. How would you rate him as a harmonica player? I rate him as one of the top shows of the day. You should know, because you've played with... He's played with Sunny Boy Williams and he was the one who had a greatest. Oh, yeah, yeah. Snookie Prior had a lot of playing to do though. He gets through. He's fine and made it. He got his rules made up now. And Joe had a plane with him. Matter of fact, Joe, I'm being in his presence. Snookie Prior is a very nice person to be around, you know. Have you done any live things with him? Have you done shows with him? No, I have not no shows with him. Would you like to do something that you like to do for some live shows with Snookie? Yes, I would like to do some live shows with

Snookie. And be a pleasure. And we also have Kent Tushane in the audience here tonight. And he's going to be... He plays with Johnny Shines regularly and we'll be playing tomorrow night as well. And is he playing on the album? Also, the Snookie Prior album? Did you play any on it? Yes, he did play some on it. Can we talk about that just for a minute? Kent plays along with you. You both play lead guitar or one plays rhythm. How does that work? What can people look for tomorrow? He's soft. He's soft. He lead a while and I play background and he plays background and he's soft. How long have you been working together? Even Kent? Not a bit of a year now. Not quite a year now, yeah. So he accompanies you on your live performances? Yes. There was something I was... You and Bob were born right around the same time and traveled a lot in the south. And in fact, in articles I've read, both of you have decided, you talked

about knowing... Well, Bob, you talked about knowing Alan Wolfe and that he grew up right or he lived right near you. And Johnny, you talked about learning from Alan Wolfe? He's picking it out. And I'm sort of curious about, did you know a lot of... Did you know each other back then? I guess it was in the 30s and did you know a lot of other people in common? And what was the community like back then of musicians and how are you each individually involved in that community? Where you see, where I come from, I come across a lot of the musicians, Memphis. What's the area of the musician come from? Anyway, he stopped in Memphis. If you come out of Mississippi, he stopped in Memphis. If you come out of Arkansas, he stopped in Memphis. If you come out of Alabama, he stopped in Memphis. If you come out of Georgia, he stopped in Memphis. You know, if he's going east and west, he stopped in Memphis. He's going north and south, he stopped in Memphis. I know a lot of some musicians. They got to be big,

but they did well. They used to walk through Memphis on a way to Chicago, walking in Thunick. I'll tell you more about it in my book. You know, that was another thing. You're going to mention that, were you going to mention that? You're spreading it out of black? Tell us about that for a minute. Are you starting to write a book? Yes, I'm trying to get started on it. I've already got it in my mind what I'm going to put in, it's just about it. It's not about it. It's just how, yes, it will be about it. Matter of fact, it'll be a book. It'll be a chapter book with my life story and well biography and a book that I'm maintaining the right to be a part of a book. Looking back to Tom's original kind of question, there was a sort of blues community or music community back in Memphis in those days, but the two of you never actually played together

or actually knew each other back in those days, did you? Pops and I? No, I didn't meet Pops and in the forties. In the forties? Tell us about that. That still sounds interesting to me. Well, I went to Chicago September the 5th, 1941 and Pops and I would be playing on the streets and I would walk me to go by their plane and listen to them because I liked what they were playing and him and his cheer was saying, so beautiful together, so level, so even. I really enjoyed it. And I always have admired him as a musician and a singer. I have admired his family as singers, you know? And it's just, believe it or not, I'm thrilled to be seeing you ever Saturday.

You know, I'm thrilled to be sitting beside a guy and two. We never got to play together. You know, but time ruled around as you go long, it will happen. Sooner or later it will happen. Now we have a chance to play. We run across one another, different B.B. playing the last two places. We just see one another like that. But how long were I used to see him in Mississippi, playing on the street. And he was a young man out. He was older than me. And that was back in 1930, 1920, the year was two, but he's in the river, around 20. And lured up, I left Mississippi. Before Wolf did, he came on to Chicago and we met up. And so happened we were living three blocks up within one another. And we ever, several of my

birdies. We'd meet at the restaurant and talk and talk. We'd go out, come here, go out, come here. And that was a very good friend of mine. I lost. It was a good, good man in every way. And I get good musicians and a good entertainer. He was just great. So miss him, but true. We had to keep on going. So like a journalist a while ago. I'm here seven to six now. And I got to, I mean, 24 or more years ago, after I get to be a hundred, then I let y'all know how much longer I'm going to play. Yeah, because last year on the night music show in David Sanembroom was introducing you, you said, he said, so this is going to be pot, you have, I guess it's number one, right? That was number one. And he said, I think you said, yeah, I'm going to go all the way to

20. Yeah, yeah. Then I know where the most stopping, I have much for that one. Now it's 26. Yeah, yeah, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, yeah. Let's talk about this Howling Wolf connection a little bit more because every blues fan knows who Howling Wolf is and what a great legend he was. I've been at one place that Johnny, that you knew, not only knew Howling Wolf, but that you carried him along. You kind of helped encourage him to play because you didn't feel that he was actually playing up to his potential. Well, you didn't have to encourage him to play. What it was, Wolf was playing for a dollar and a half a night and what he could eat and drink. Well, to him it was, I learned from him and I was getting 10 and 12 a night and all I could eat and drink. And Wolf couldn't believe that. So I taking him with me to show him, I paid him six dollars

a night to play with me. He split my purse with him. Six dollars a night to play with me. The proof of him that I was making that kind of money. After the same people that he was playing for a dollar and a half a night. Some people just, you know, I was like another friend of ours, Walter Harden. Walter Harden is one of the best harmonica players I've ever known. But he could not manage a job. He could not sit in no place on a job. He would go out and get jobs, but he'd come to me and say, come on, you got a job, man. I want you to set a price on it. You had to take care of all his business for him. He never could do that himself. And now, and how and Wolf caught the hang of his own boy. He went fall of it. He'd tell you to put it on a ball. He'd rather put it on a ball. He was more business

and more stuff. I'm really curious about the, about the, well, pops you play mostly gospel music or, I mean, which, I don't know, maybe I'm not using the right time, but you play gospel music in Johnny. You play mostly secular music. And yet I've heard you record, you know, I've heard some of your recordings that are non-secular or religious music and pops. You've done a lot of things that aren't strictly religious. And I'm just curious about this. I mean, in fact, Johnny, there's one story about you and Robert Johnson playing together on the elder, elder mode. So I was wondering back in the, you know, in the 30s and 40s and so forth. And even up until now, whether there was this real strict distinction. And you, pops, I've read about you playing at Duke joints, when you were younger and playing blues and certainly listening blues musicians.

So I was wondering about this relationship and, you know, whether it was really strictly defined and as we hear about it sometimes, right? So, you can talk about that a little bit. Well, I started out as a boy. I worked in the field 12 hours a day with three dollars a week. And my peers were doing the same thing. And I compared to children so I could not get five dollars a night. I was doing that better than I would. I get five dollars a night a day. And that would give me eight dollars. And I put a big shot among my peers because I was making eight and they were making three. So I went from now, after I got to be about 18 years old, I got married. And I loved Mississippi, but I had to leave because time got

off. Me, I didn't like working at all the year before I got paid. So I moved Chicago. And young married men and my wife was having babies so fast. I had to put to get that down and get some solid work, you know. So I started to work and I didn't test it anymore with about 12 years later when I was about 10 years old. And then we started to sing around the house, sing in gospel, sing to amuse us. I'm the 13th child. I'm 14 of us. I'm the 13th child. And we just get out there and sing in Mississippi out in the yard. And now no radio, no kind of music. That's the only way we had to amuse ourselves. We got through chopping, cutting, picking, whatever. Get out in the yard and sing. So I started my family as a less, less singing like my family used to. The only thing I had to get taught to try

to concentrate. So we started, we were trying to make it my wife working days and I worked in Nice and I babysit. She babysits like I was. I started trying to learn them out of saying, teach them. We sang around. Maves couldn't care too, no kind of way. But two years before I could get her, learn it up. So we sang around the house, two years, one thinking about no career, nothing. That's just saying, literally saying, which we still like, just like to say, you know, but worked into a job. So my sister asked us to go out to the church, her husband had passed one of my oldest sister, she was staying with me. And a strange thing, I had a good job. But every week, I'd had to borrow $10 from her

to tie me over to the next week. So she asked me to go to the church with her and sang at that problem. One son at the moment, we sang. And that's the way we got started. We sang a couple of numbers. And the congregation went and let her sit down, applaud us back, applaud us back. So it's two songs, I guess, four or five times. So I mentioned that I was enthused over singing. So he asked us to come here to church tonight and he would give us half what we raised, you know, the tick-up relationship. And so we went and my first payday was $17,000, I think we took $35,000. And my sister was home, sleep in a bed home. I got home, I woke up, she don't have to long enough, $10,000, I got $17,000. So we went

from there, from there singing gospel on up to the civil rights movement started. And that's why, that's how we didn't never get rid into the rock and roll and blues. That's how we got into singing, constructed songs after a message song, protest song rather, work with Dr. Martin Luther King in the room. That's how we got into, to that, to this jacket song that the song that we were singing was good to be heard. And they paid them on the rhythm and blues show. And that church people raised a lot of, saying with them, tell them not to pay the state for singing. So, that's why my tree is so bad. Yeah, but that song originated because we was a rock. I saw the white kids and black kids trying to get on the bus together. And they held black kids back. And I said, why, why is there, why did they don't, what is it? They don't want to get an education. And that's why I wrote

this song that was pending, why am I tree is so bad. And they played it. And I have no inferiority complex, no kind of way in the song that I sang because it's a message in the truth and truth is gospel. And I can say most in a song that I sang in the club like Thed and Marner. I can say it in a shake. So, that's why they tell this is rhythm and blues. And we say message in a row. That's why we got pulled over to that point. And would you are, like, your family when you're growing up, did they approve of you singing blues or? No, no. Well, when I talk about, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, they call it get toreos, don't play it on, don't reos, you know. And I'd be trying to rehearse, got to check some and the other row of my dad and make me go to bed. And I'd put to get top under the cover. So, you can hear me rehearse. No, they didn't. But I had the first one though

that they let get in the church with singing gospel. They let me go and let the state for singing to come in. And we started, started it, God for singing that song. You mean with the guitar? Yeah, with the guitar. No, you didn't learn, no. Get taught it. Did you remember that? Yeah, I remember that. I remember when I heard a young man whistling in the blues. They didn't, people didn't land in their house. I was going to say he was going to be the hero, he was going to carry everybody, he'll be the hero. He was some strange data. And I'll tell you how they'd come about. Back in slavery time, like, the black people working in the fields of things, they was allowed to sing. They were allowed to play instruments for a long time, new instruments. The band you were the first instrument they learned to play. And they'd be singing little in the evening, hollering and singing, you know, and morning and groaning and going on. And like the overseer of the farmer's

relative something like they'd come out of the north, down the south, they'd hear these people in the evenings singing and groaning and going on. They'd ask them, maybe at times what's the matter with those niggas down there? What's wrong with them? Then it sounds so sad. He said, they do that every evening. They just have a good time. They have a good time now. Well, they had their children, but I've known these young boys, 15, 16, 14 years old, you know what I'm talking? And they would go down there and feel the sea with these people having a good time. And they found that people down there were tears lapping on their chin. You know what I mean? The tears lapping on their chin. But it's just keeping up these same chance. And they went back and they told their parents that those people are not happy down there, some people are crying. So then they just went on and young boys, you know, like boys, taking them to run off, you hit the Mississippi River and go up the north, trying to get away from slavery. And if he had a girl over on a next plantation

and he wanted her to go with her and run off with him, he was saying, see, this is where he would talk to her and maybe her brother picked her song up and relay a message back to him. And his other boy, her brother, something like that, picked her message up in the River back then. And he did it back then. And you always had a Judas in the crowd. Somebody went into a little overseas that these people were sending messages about his

children. And they had meetings in Atlanta, Georgia and Columbus, Missouri. They said, what are we going to do to stop them from singing these songs like this? They're singing messages. They said, well, we don't know what to do about this. They just tell them to go to hell and buy and find brimstone for hell whenever they sing these songs. And that's the way this blues, these reels got put down. Because a man lived in hell all his life. He went, oh, you don't want to die and go to hell again, you know what I'm saying, right? So the people didn't want you around them if you were singing blues, a reel that was how they call them. Singing them all real. You don't come around and how saying them all real. They're whistling them all real. And that's how it got to be called devil music. That was all. And now, really, those people really praying. They wasn't really singing it first. It was praying. But them being from Africa, you see every overseer want all

the black people to speak his language. If he is Dutch, he wanted to speak Dutch. And if he was a Swedish, he wanted to speak Swedish. And if he was Irish, he wanted to speak Irish. If he's Italian, he wants to speak Italian. Well, we had our language already. We brought out. That's all we did bring with us with our language. Took it down. And they didn't allow us to use our language. They had to make us speak English, you know what I mean? That's why the Irish black twist today is lost for words. He stopped me and said, oh, you can't say anything. Because he don't know what one of the words he wanted to use, or how he wanted to use it. But we don't realize this was problemless. We don't realize that's a problem. We still have a problem speaking. So they told him that they'd die and go to hell as a burning fire and a brimstone. And the people stopped. The last time stopped singing, you know, and some kept it up. And then after peace was declared, what do you know, peace, you didn't declare, slavery was over, supposedly. Well, the women is saying

they started, they used to make these little records. They made records on the ground. They like a cup. The record was like a cup and pleaded on a spell. Anyway, they started recording the women. But it was 30 or 40 years before they started recording the black men. Of course, it's white men and will let black men voice his house. So they mean like in the turn around the turn of the century, they started recording the women that was in the 20 years before. So now so thank God, we men can sell our voices to those women here. Going back along this line of thinking, kind of a racial kind of thing, something I've always noticed, and I don't know if this is true nationwide, but a lot of black people really don't support the blues. I don't know if that's necessarily true about gospel

music. Would you support something that's going to make you die and go to hell? No, but I could certainly appreciate the message and the music and how great it is. So I understand that. Well, the blues now is beginning to get into the ears of everybody because they found out there's history in these blues. A lot of history in these blues. And the young kids now going to school are learning about different musicians, howling wool, child pattern, and Robert Johnson, people like that. And the young boys and things now are trying to play and sing like black people. And a lot of them is doing it. They're doing a darn good job of it. I've got one that wakes you to me doing a pretty good job of it. It's sitting over there. Can't you change? So it's becoming a whole popular now because people are learning that it's not all foggy stuff. The young people is going to school.

But now you go back into the, I, I, the real area is now, down in the south, inside the land of blues. No, no matter what it is to you. But let me just tell you, I wonder why are the black people ashamed of blues? And that's why we're here to, more, the white people are the blues better than we do. Why is that now? Well, I'll tell you about. The black people is not the only one that's seem to be a musical, they're a heritage. The average I tell you, I don't want to call it an Italian. You want to call it an American. A boy comes to me down in a, Auburn. He's playing now. And he says to me that he was Mexican. I looked at him and say, did you say you were Mexican? He said, yeah, I'm Mexican. He said, I don't have a good time. And almost brought tears to my eye. The man acknowledges his

ancestry. Because the average one don't do it now. I can remember the Irishman, you can hear the Irishman first, a block away coming down the road. I'm Irish. I'm Irish. I'm Irish. I'll come from Dublin. Yes, you can hear him. Half a mile away. He nodded his ancestry. You don't hear it in a mole. That's just like when you and I were boys, it was certain people, if we were walking into going to church, which we walked in a way, and we were going to church, we got an air shot of the church, and we heard certain people saying, having father, son, son, son, son, son, son, son. We tired of going to the next, son, son, son, son, son, son, son, son, son. We tired of going to hear him pray. Oh, somebody raised a son. He says, that's me, son, son, son, son, we tired of hearing him up fast. But you don't see him hearing the church, nobody hear nobody. See? And this church thing

is one of the, maybe I shouldn't say it, but it's in me and I got to see it. He wanted the biggest fads it is now. The most segregated day in the week is Sunday. Presbyterian go to his church. It's Jewish go to his church. The Bappers go to his church. The men go to his church. And what is that for segregation? So you feel good? Just going to say, I was thinking about the concert that I went to the mighty class, the joy. And it would seem that the music, in fact, could bring it together and yet it was, like, I don't know your group, the Staplesingers is one, probably one of the few gospel groups that has really gotten a very mixed audience, both racially, ideologically and so forth and so on. I guess that's a question. That's my impression. But when I went

to see the mighty class of joy, it's not a huge black community here in Albuquerque, but that audience was, yeah, predominantly black and god of music. If anything could bring people together, that music could or tomorrow night's concert could and so forth and so on. I mean, but the Staplesingers, on the other hand, when I was saying to Pops, I saw some 25 years ago, something like that in the club 47, which was a folk club in Boston. And it changed my ideas about what was beautiful in music. And that was the most beautiful music I ever heard. And then a few years later, when I heard Johnny Shines and, you know, and so the Staplesingers seemed to have done that in a way, to have brought different people together. This I purpose aim and we don't see no color in doing it, no color in a way out of it. It's just a rainbow, all colors and everybody is a welcome. I just hate to see the world

like the other day. It's just beautiful. Where it is, the people can't see that everybody is somebody and I don't want to get started talking. But it's beautiful. It's just really beautiful. If it's hung up there and we can't get away from it, because when the top people, it's rich enough for the wrong thing, then you can't get by. So I'm going to hang on and then just keep on doing the best I can, try and say this is a mean of a world. It's not the word. It's a mean. It's the mean people in this world. We've got a beautiful world. So try to see them through the eyes. We'll try and keep on going. I think that, you know, anybody with an open ear can certainly see the beauty in both gospel and blues regardless of who they are. What race they are. They're very good

music that people can open their ears to it. I want to get back, not off the topic, but I just want to get back on the subject again about the guitar plane because guitar plane is so instrumental in the blues. I just want to ask you again, you're probably one of the first people to play the guitar in the church. How did you feel about that? I mean, you were going to be a maverick at that time. I was really proud that they accepted the staffer saying there's any church with the get because I knew from my heart. I didn't feel no wrongness, no kind of way. And well, no more another instrument to me because the Bible tell us that you're strange. If you're going to go about a good book, hearts and strains and all, so I feel good. How did a person like Blind Willie Johnson, those early recordings of him playing slide guitar? Did you listen to that stuff?

Yes, and there. Sure. And where there are other musicians like that doing things like that? Or was it all mixed up to people all do different things? I didn't find any understanding. Well, I was wondering if there were other people like Blind Willie Johnson playing or like Pop's really playing blues guitar with religious lyrics. Yeah. I played a blues when I first started out playing blues. And it's not another group Harley, but I wish it were. More groups, some more like to stay for singing there and that would push us further. But I played a blues and when we went into gospel, I kept that same blues feel, more or less. And that made our group look different from our rest of the group. I kept a blues feel to play him. And music is music. I don't care not about what kind of melody you hear. But I like the lyrics. I like to say something.

I like to be singing something. So. Well, I think Tom, I know that you're trying to get at other boundaries really between the types of music. And probably the boundaries are probably what people make. I know one thing I'm looking forward to, actually, even though I've heard you play before, I know a lot of fans that might go to the show tomorrow. They'll be interested in hearing, Johnny, of course, is known as a blues man's blues guitarist. But I think people probably think of view pops as being a gospel guy. But I think they'll be highly surprised when they can hear you playing the blues on guitar. Well, I'll be playing the melody of the blues, but I'll be saying some different words maybe, but I can't get away. That's me. That's what I started playing of blues. And blues is just like a godfather. Blues is telling the truth, telling something. The truth. Blues ain't nothing but a good moment on the match, my aunt. She's thinking about it.

She's thinking about it, you know. That's what it's about. That's what it's about. Good woman on and she's here. How do we deal with that, Johnny? Well, I'll tell you. You take it either way you want to. We are blues players, blues entertainers, but we're more so storytellers. Because most of the songs that we sing about these blues are telling a story about something. Somebody's life, maybe not my life, maybe not his life, but somebody's life. And we pick the song up from somebody. And we're still carrying this song off. It's like the lyrics we're saying, you can't hallify any lyrics whatsoever that somebody haven't used already in some song somewhere. So we say it's original, but there's nothing original in music. Somebody haven't done it before. Somebody like Robert. I talk about Robert. Robert could be sitting down and talking to you like, I'm talking to you now. And a song come on

radio. He never heard before. If he liked it, a song he never stopped talking. But tonight or tomorrow, sometime another, he picked up his guitar and played that song, note for note, chord for chord, word for word, heard it one time, one time. You didn't know he heard it then because he never stopped talking. Now, that's one reason why the people said he sold his soul to the devil because he so well gifted. The man had a photograph of memory. He didn't forget nothing. Whatever he heard, he likely heard it from then on. And he didn't only play that song one way, he played it many different way. He played it with a slide, he played it with chords. The man played chords, I know he'd never heard before in his life because he didn't know one chord from another. He didn't know one note from another. And he'd hear a chord. And I never seen him say, now look for one. I never seen him practice. He didn't practice. He didn't rehearse. He played. When he picked his guitar up, he played it. Whatever he went to play it, he played it right at the end

of the day. He didn't learn no song. Not really new. And he wouldn't teach anybody else than either. No, no. He kept me looking at him. He turned his back. If I got around on that side, he'd try to turn his back. Next time I wouldn't see him no more in four or five, four or five months, a week. He didn't turn his back too many times when he turned it on out of sight. He didn't like for you to watch him. When I robed Junior Lockwood, he taught roving. He showed him the things to do, made him play. Because roving with Steelers get time to play it. So finally he got tired of roving Steelers get time. So he's got on him. And he wants to play to get time of the year. Well, I want to teach you how. And he got on him. He's starting to make me play. A lot of times we think back. I think a lot of blues fans think back. And classify the music like there was blues. There was this. There was that. But you have

played Johnny and played a lot of different kinds of music. I mean, you had a jazz group in Chicago, isn't it? Right. Yeah. I mean, that's what I think is really interesting about you and pops is that you really defied categorization, you know? And it seems like in some ways, it's helped careers. And in some ways, it's hurt careers because people can't put you in a box. Well, I had an action run up in bandstands, you know? People calling me up, you know? And I wouldn't shy away. I'd go to play. So I was in down in the 40s. What was that? What was that? In down the end. I was there playing it one night. They called me up to play. And the guy come in with a hand from the music, you know? And he goes, this song I just wrote, sir. I would like to feel the

play for me. He gave me my part. He gave me his heart. He was a part. He was a part. He was a part. He was a part. He was a part. He was a piano player. He was a part. Okay. I'm saying and looking at it. I don't know what I'm looking at. So for them, I'm going to say, I need to croak at a wall crossing. And then I'll say, I knew what it was. So I decided to switch, you know? Well, I'd been playing it all along. I never tried to play it all by piece of people. So I played it. So the guy said, you had a good, very good, very good. He had a band in the band praise me, you know, for playing. I said, I don't know what it was. So next time I went out to the, to the, uh, a sickle bar. And the guy did the same thing. About the third or fourth of it. I knew what it was. I went on to play it, you know? Then I had a high city one night. The same thing happened. I said, I better do something about this because one of these

days, they're going to do something. So something with that, I'm not going to be able to play. So the war was working with me. Then we were four. And I said, well, the next of that Monday, I said, well, what? I said, you know, anybody can teach me to put some music. He said, yeah, I said, who? He said, Erskine Tate. I said, he can. I said, yeah, I'll take you out there. And I tell you what I'm going to go. So next couple of days, I asked him if he would take me out there in Erskine's place. So he took me out there. And Erskine was working nights. He wasn't able to teach me at night. And I was working day. So his mother, she'd taken me. She was a piano teacher. And she'd taken me. She'd work with me a while. So finally, she got to send me to take me her song. Next song. So he'd take me home. But every time I'd walk in, he'd shout, she'd have a trumpet in my hand. And I didn't want to play no trumpet. But I was learning a musical right now, but then she'd have a trumpet in my hand. She had a trumpet in my hand. And I hated trumpet. And don't think too much of it now. And anyway. So then finally, Erskine went

to working days. He went to working days. And he'd taken me home. And he did the same thing. Chopping, trumpet, trumpet, trumpet. You see, I had strong big teeth, you know. I just thought I'd make a wonderful trumpet play. Maybe I would have. I don't think I would have liked it as well as I did to guitar. So I got tired of that. I learned how to build a little bit, you know, right and build a little bit. I learned one note from another. I learned my skill. I said, well, I'm just, I'm going to stop going out there because he whirled me with his trumpet, you know. Well, yes. But not on a bandstand. Not on a bandstand. Because I played most everything I heard. That was one thing. It's just taking

me longer to learn. I had to play a song as much as three times, most of times to learn. For those, for those of you who've listened, I don't know what's going on. We're, except having some great conversation. We're talking to Johnny Shines and pop staples who are going to be playing a concert along with Kent Tushanes, who is accompanying Johnny and John Hammond as well, who will be playing at the chemo theater tomorrow night and at eight o'clock. And we thought maybe, I know the question. And you're listening on K, you're going to be on eight o'clock night. Maybe we could open up now the questions to the floor and maybe you can ask questions and I'll repeat it over the air because I guess probably won't come across the air. So does anybody have any questions? If they like that, pop. Did you first record your first album, Johnny? Me? My first recording was in a 40-5-1945.

Did they sing to you or you went to a studio? I went to the studio. I went to the regular building. Was that for chess records? Was that for chess records? No, no. I was supposed to have been for Columbia. But the man who recorded me was Lester Melrose. Lester Melrose got in bad health, even to Arizona. And the whole tape got pigeonhole recorded in 1945 and it came out in 1970. In the 70s, at least. He had some bad experiences with some of these record companies, didn't he? More so. Has that kept you from wanting to record? Well, yes. A house said that I wouldn't record. A house said I wouldn't record. And I'm not too old-joyed about recording now. Is that because you feel that the record companies

don't treat you the way you should be treated or because you don't like the institution? They don't treat you like you should be treated. Now, the people that have made as many records as I have, that got in a fair deal, they're rich, they're very well old. Me, I still dig in the ditch. Ditch dig and musician. And Pops, you have recordings coming out. Are you still recording with the Staplesingers? Yeah, we'll be recording again. But right now, we're trying to, Mavis has done ILP. But the Staples, they want to get together. We hope before the years out and do another LP. But we still lack of working here with you tomorrow night, Mavis. She just had a lot of savings. And the Staplesingers are going to

find me and have me out of the family. But as soon as we're just working here and there, different ones working. Whenever it comes up, we do it. We'll be together for now. We never stop saying together. And when Mavis does gig, does she travel with the whole band or with a whole band or does she have a band? She has a band. She travels with, once she has to go out on tour. And the band played for me. Well, when I wasn't playing by myself, they played for the Staplesingers and Mavis have a different band. Knowing that you two have not actually met before except for this occasion and knowing that your ability to be able to improvise is there any possibility that we could get you

guys on the stage together tomorrow for that show? I know you're doing individual sets. It's really possible that you might play together. I don't know. I put them on the spot, I think. Whatever, whatever John is saying. He's the boss. Well, I'll tell you. And nothing would enthuse me more than to play a few songs with pops. It's done. We'll be playing song together tomorrow night. And I think John Hammett has expressed some interest in that as well, so. Yes. Well, now you see, that's another thing. You have heard a lot of people say, a white man can't play the blues. But for your surprise, be there tomorrow. And get your surprise. Because John Hammett is a blues killer. And can't do change is a Delta

Blues killer. And that's something my boy never played before was Delta Blues. And he's a Delta Blues musician. Be there and listen to him. Because he'd be growling to you. Did we have any other questions from the audience? Three minutes left in the Friday night. I just have one question. I'm curious for Johnny. I've seen pictures of you with a national steel body guitar. I find them real fascinating. And pops, you probably have some experience with these guitars too. But they're so fascinating being steel body and all that. And you get a different tone and all that. Do you like them? Or do you not prefer those guitars? I do like them. But they're top heavy. Explain that because I'm not really. I mean, they has a tendency to drop down off my lap. You know, I have to hold them. I have to hold it and play it too. I can't just lay it close my lap like in a hollow body.

So John Hammond gave me a guitar that I wouldn't take a million dollars for, really. He was a national steel body guitar, but I don't care it because it's top heavy. And it would be just trying to play it. But I love the guitar and I love John Hammond. So we, perhaps we can just, I also want to make sure to thank the Reyesis people for this. They're usual hour and I hope the people who are listening to Reyesis, who tuned into Reyesis, would find this show as interesting. Also, I want to thank very much Abney and Johnny Shines and pop staples and all the people in the radio audience and KU&M and people here at the space. And everybody should come out tomorrow night because this is not just being billed as a historic occasion. This is a historic occasion. So it should be a great show tomorrow night and it's really an honor to have these people here. So thank you very

much. Yeah, if you want to hear some big games, you wouldn't be there tomorrow night. Because Kent said he can't see out in the world, I can miss because I am all over the whole tree. You see, I'm nervous. I'm kind of shaking to get to him and I can't hold it any of us. So when I shoot down coming games, I can't say you got to kill him because you didn't know all over the tree. I'm sure if anybody has any questions. Well, pops I thought I was older than you. I'm older than you. I'm older than you. What did you buy on it? I bought it in December. December? Yeah. December, man. I'm once a year older than you. I'll be 76, the 25th day of this month. I'll be 76, 28th day of this month.

You understand me? Yes. I don't stop to tell you, shoot, do I welcome you? Yeah. Yeah, that's all right. This is going to be some fun. Yeah. Thanks. The way that wood is scaling. 10 years off your life is what it's going to do. Just to give a K-I-V-I-E. That's what I got stuck with. Thank you.

Thank you.