Spirits of the Present: The Legacy from Native America; Spirits of the Present

Music Welcome to Spirits of the Present, the legacy from Native America. I'm Tantu Cardinal. The Indian Health Service provides most of the health care for Native Americans in the United States.

According to Indian Health Service reports, its agencies are underfunded by at least $500 million. This leaves a huge gap in medical care for Native people. Urban Native Americans in Oakland and San Francisco responded to the lack of health care by forming their own clinics in the 1970s. They combine traditional healing methods with Western science in a unique approach to health. Kathy Chapman provides an inside look at urban Indian health care in the Bay Area. My name is Kathy Chapman. I'm Apache and Yaki and the second generation of my family to live in the city. My job is community health outreach worker at the Native American Health Center in Oakland, California. There are more than 60,000 Native Americans in the Bay Area representing a multitude of tribal groups. In our clinic, we serve 2,000 patients every year. Our work has given us the opportunity to connect Native American traditional methods

of healing with Western medicine. Our stories, both personal and tribal, are important to us as we pull our essential values from the past to help us understand the present and the future. Terry Tafoya is Tal's Pueblo and Warm Springs. He is a clinical psychologist in family therapy who works as a consultant to the Office of Substance Abuse. Terry uses song and myth to help Native Americans understand the nature of modern illnesses. And a cushy washer. Long ago there was someone like Bigfoot, like Sasquatch, but not exactly. The old people up in the Pacific Northwest, they say, Bigfoot, he's okay. You don't bother him. He won't bother you. But just like you might have some relatives, you don't like Bigfoot's got some relatives who are bad news. And one of the worst of these is someone called Dashkaya. Now, Dashkaya is even bigger than Bigfoot and she's all covered with long black greasy hair.

Kind of stinks because she doesn't take a bath very much. Big yellow eyes like in a hole. Big bushy eyebrows. But you'll always be able to recognize your bio-lips. She holds your lips pushed out. The old people say, if you don't listen to your elders, Dashkaya will come into your bedroom at night. She'll come in and suck your brain out of her ear. But the real reason why she holds your lips like that is because she whistles. And Dashkaya will whistle. And she'll only come out at night. And she'll look for young boys and girls by themselves. She finds you. She'll hold out her hand and it'll have food in it. Maybe fish. Maybe berries. If you reach for a food, you'll take that other hand out from behind your back. And she'll slap you across your eyes so your eyes your glutes shut. You can't open them to see to run away. And then she'll jerk you up and she'll throw you inside the basket she carries on her back. And her basket is so large it'll hold ten kids and that's her favorite dinners, ten

kids because she's a cannibal. She's human flesh. And that's why our old people tell our children even to this day on the reservations up in the northwest. You never whistle at night because you might call this kind of spirit person to you. The reason why when we talk about health education I wanted to start with this story is the old people on a lot of our reservations and our communities will tell us you remember these stories because there's something from the past and something for the present and something for the future in them. And that's why we keep telling them year after year. And it may be that there are not many dashgeas left in terms of monsters who come and steal our children away from us. But there are things like dashgea. Only nowadays we call such things aides or we call such things chemical dependency, alcoholism, substance abuse. Those things it really do continue to steal the way the ones that we love and care about. Historically Native Americans were hard hit by introduced diseases. Smallpox and influenza killed thousands at times wiping out entire bands of Native people.

Wave after wave of epidemic hit communities sometimes too or even three times in a single generation and the Native American population was decimated. George Amiat, Oglala Lakota, a physician's assistant explains. You know, it wasn't the military mind of the United States government or the colonial powers that killed us and took our lands. It was their diseases that ravaged our nations. You know, the amount of the population when Columbus came was up in the millions and by the late 40s, I'm talking about like 1940, you know, there was only 250 something, only a quarter of a million people left from the original populations and that was a devastating blow to the population of Turtle Island. But today as our populations recover and we understand the illnesses that pose serious

health threats to our communities, Native people are responding by taking responsibility for their health care, reconnecting with Native American spirituality and incorporating training in Western medicine. George Amiat tells of the guidance he received from two traditional medicine men and his decision to become a physician's assistant. When I came back from Vietnam was I wanted to do something constructive not only for myself but for my people. I was interested in medicine. It was more emphasized when I came back and was trying to recover from the war and my grandmother, Zona Puyer, wanted me to do something with my life because she was seeing the young men coming back from Vietnam and they were, you know, strung out in drugs and not all of them but a majority of them were partying around and she didn't want me to do that. And I didn't.

I sought out a man named Pete Ketchas who ultimately became my spiritual father, my spiritual master. Someone who put me out on the mountain and showed me a better path that I might be able to strengthen my own gifts that the great mystery give me. And also at the same time I met another man that was very instrumental in my life and his name was Frank Bullscrow. And he was from the same district I was, medicine route down a chile. I knew him ever since I was a small chile and he was our Sundance chief. Basically he'd give me an objective to reach Frank Bullscrow told me that I should go out and learn Western medicine, become a doctor. I'm about freaked out because of the fact of my education. I was, you know, I got my, I was wounded and I got my GED when I was in the hospital. And so I checked into the possibility of doing something like that.

I wasn't thinking of becoming a doc, but becoming a middle-level practitioner, which I did. And while I was doing that, I was studying with Pete, Frank Bullscrow, and they helped me recover from my wounds from that war. They helped me develop a relatively solid path and that foundation of understanding to work for him. While smallpox has been virtually eradicated from the face of the earth, we see new diseases cropping up in Native America. Diabetes is a disease that was unknown in the days before Columbus. But now it is one of the major health threats to Native Americans. For seven years, Dr. Barbara Ramsey has served as medical director of both the Native American Health Center in Oakland and San Francisco, California. She explains. The incidence of diabetes in Indian people over 30 is extremely high. In the Bay Area, since we have such a large mixture of different tribes, the incidence varies

depending on the specific tribal background of the patients. And some tribes, the incidence is as high as 40 to 50 percent of adults. If you look at all Americans, regardless of ethnicity, and you look for the prevalence of diabetes in adults, it's more like 5 percent. So even in a tribe with a relatively low incidence of, say, only 20 percent that's still 4 times greater than it is for the population as a whole. Dr. Bob Boards is a family physician who received a fellowship from Stanford University to study the effects of diabetes on urban Native Americans. He also uses oral histories of the clients of the Native American Health Clinic to find ways to improve the communication between clients and medical practitioners. According to Boards, medical researchers have a number of theories which try to explain

the high incidence of diabetes. One of the theories is a theory called the thrifty gene hypothesis, which is based on the idea that for some reason it was actually advantageous for Indian people in the past several thousand years ago to have an abnormality in the way in which they metabolized glucose, which would maintain their blood sugar at a higher rate during times of food scarcity. And that what has happened is that those are the individuals, the ancestors who survived and that with changes in lifestyle over the past couple centuries with Westernization and now with fast food and limited activity that this once advantageous issue has now become a problem and that that's why we're seeing diabetes emerge in people. Lifestyle and diet may actually play a more important role than the idea of a thrifty

gene. Studies have shown that the foods traditionally used by Native Americans, beans, squash, acorn, mesquite, cactus and hundreds of varieties of corn have a slow glycemic absorption rate. And a traditional diet would naturally keep the blood sugar low. Barbara Baker is winter and lives on the Calusso Rancheria in Northern California. Before there was fish, acorn, waterfowl, the barley, the wilds, the seeds, and now you cook with lard, you cook with different kinds of oil, the white flour and the sugar and before there was no need to have anything sweet except for the fruit that you gathered and that was just natural sugar, that's not like that white cane sugar. Through the relocation program of the 1950s, Violet Bonn came to the San Francisco Bay area

from the San Carlos Apache Reservation in Arizona. She explains how her people traditionally use cactus and other plants as medicine. They do cook with it sometime and they use it for diabetes too, like cactus you know that the green leaf like they clean it and cut it up and put it in the refrigerator with water, they drink it and they absorb the sugar. I tried it one time, I was supposed to mix it with other medication. What is difficult in our society today is for both physician and patient to work together in the healing process. Often, Western practitioners do not understand the cross-cultural implications of working with native people, Bob Bortz. I found that you can't generalize at all about Native American people. Some of the individuals clearly are described themselves as in a sense living in two worlds.

They live in one world that is very much connected to their traditional beliefs and an attempt to maintain traditional understandings of health, illness and disease and will seek help from Native American healers that either come into the city depending upon the tribal orientation or will return to their reservation in the case of Navajo that will return a thousand miles back to the reservation to have a sing conducted. All is a part of an attempt to try to heal from the problem of diabetes. It's much more holistic understanding of the illness and as medical professionals, I think we need to understand these different understandings of disease. Many of our strategies have been very technical in their approach, they're based on purely a biological understanding of disease.

Dr. Eduardo Duran is a Pachyan Pueblo and practices clinical psychology. Dreams and visualization are two ways he helps his patients to understand their illness and the healing process. It's critical in working with Indian people that we don't make the separation between the physical, emotional and the spiritual that is made otherwise. I have worked also with patients who have diabetes and AIDS. One of the main problems with a lot of Indian patients that have chronic sicknesses or illnesses, I have found that a lot of the clients just do not want to implement some of the strategies that they're prescribing that a lot of times they don't make sense to them as they are presented by the physician. One of the ways that I try to make sense of illnesses such as diabetes with Indian people is by looking at it in a more symbolic way.

I rely a lot on the use of dreams and active imagination processes to help the client find out where they're at with the sickness. In this way it empowers the client to make a connection with their own spiritual component so that they can find wholeness within themselves. George Amiott explains a traditional philosophy of healing. You have an understanding of the cycle of life and the natural order of things, things become a lot easier. I'm not saying they're going to become, they're going to dissipate because the obstacles to great mystery gives us, makes us stronger and these are things that we need to learn and it's through taking care of our physical cells and our mental cells and our spiritual cells and bringing the Trinity together as we will maintain that balance.

At the National Native American AIDS Prevention Center in Oakland, California, executive director Ron Rell educates the public about Native Americans and AIDS. The one thing that most people think of when they think of AIDS is, oh, that's an urban Indian problem. I'm here to tell people out there, throughout the country, that that is not true. It is true that it isn't an urban problem but that it is not just an urban problem. It is equally a rural problem. Recent results from, and their preliminary results, but from an Indian Health Service who are prevalence survey, are showing significantly higher rates of infection among prenatal Indian women in their first and third trimesters of pregnancy, then incomparable studies of

non-Indian rural women. The growth in the number of AIDS cases is highest among rural people right now. This is a virus that is spread throughout the United States, both in rural and urban areas and in all geographic regions. A young Dakota Sioux, who works with the San Francisco AIDS Institute, describes why he came back to the Bay Area for services. I think one of the positive things that I see when I, since I've been diagnosed and living here in San Francisco in the Bay Area, is that there are a lot more access to emotional and practical support services, the organization that I volunteer for the American Indian AIDS Institute of San Francisco, I am also a volunteer and a client of theirs. So I get both direct services and emotional support services from them. Rural areas, I can see where in the couple years past where people were diagnosed in the

city and then went back to the reservations to find no support at all. And in the process, we're stuck there with no means of leaving except probably by hitchhiking out and coming back to San Francisco. I've encountered this problem in my own family and in my own reservation since 1989 and even before then since 1987. A lot more has to be done, AIDS still threatens our people and by the current statistics that I have from the CDC, the cases have doubled among Native Americans and Alaska Native since 1984 and even before then. Ron Rell. Now it so happens that in a lot of our communities, especially among elders, people do remember other epidemics, people remember tuberculosis, people remember influenza epidemics. So they can relate to that and they can go, yeah, that really hurt us.

I remember one elder up in Alaska was talking about what happened in the great flu epidemic of 1918 in his particular village and went in a light one on, you know, when we started talking about AIDS in the same kind of context. According to Rell, substance abuse is a primary cause of AIDS transmission. We try to help people to understand the interrelationship between AIDS or this virus HIV and our other health problems, the kind of health problems that they do see. We take the approach that AIDS and HIV infection is really a symptom of this underlying behavioral health problem and that that underlying behavioral health problem is at the root of most of our major causes of death and morbidity. That is to say substance abuse. Rell believes that the relocation program of the 1950s was just another example of a long history of government policies that profoundly affected the very fabric of need of life.

People I think have a hard time understanding what this really does to one's life. Imagine yourself in that situation where some outside power has almost total control over you, over everything that you hold dear. Your relationship with your kids, your work, your residency, your culture, your language, everything. It's going to control you. I mean, it's quite extraordinary and I think people don't appreciate the psychological effects of that. Dr. Eduardo Duranz says that the psychological trauma that many Native Americans experience results in post-traumatic stress disorder or PTSD. PTSD can result from dramatic environmental change or physical, sexual or spiritual assault and from abuse or neglect due to warlike conditions. For Indian people, many of these traumas are rooted in tribal, community, and personal histories.

A lot of the clients that I have seen in working in Indian Country over the last 12 years suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder and this is a disorder that is historical and nature and a lot of our people are finding themselves in a third and fourth generation of suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. The problem with PTSD, as it is known, is that very little has been done in treating second and third generation people that are suffering from this. Most of the research that has been done with post-traumatic stress disorder of second and third generation has been done with Holocaust victims within the Jewish community and the research there is indicative that the second and third generation effects of the trauma are very real and they affect people today pretty much in the same way that they affected people when the trauma was first inflicted. Therefore we have a community here that is experiencing not only the traumas of historical

magnitudes but also traumas of a daily ongoing basis. Times are faced with the crisis in health care and in Native America the crisis has felt more acutely. Health programs have been steadily slushed over the past decade, Ron Rao. The challenge is always going to be an Indian health until there is the popular will in this country to have a revolution in the health care system which is going to be necessary one of these days or another because the thing is going to collapse. Until that time comes we are always going to be forced as we have in the past an Indian country to make do with very few resources. There is a lot still that can be done and I think that if we are wrong if we take the approach that if the resources aren't there we can't do anything. There is a lot that we can do. We need to maximize the utility of the resources that we have and I would like to encourage folks out there who are working in Indian country to try to stay hopeful, to try to pull

together as much as they can for the benefit of their clients and understand that it's always going to be hard. Hope is alive in Native America. More and more Native people are taking charge of their own health care, Eduardo Durant. As far as the future of health for Indian people I am actually optimistic as to where things are going. I see a resurgence of Indian spirituality at all levels of the Indian community and the Indian spirituality is very closely associated with health and harmony and I really think that by incorporating and continuing to incorporate traditional values within our health clinics that this will only enhance the approaches that we already have in place through a Western model.

The only struggle at this point remains in convincing some of the Western practitioners that the validity of Indian beliefs can actually work alongside with some of the models that they already have in place. What is also of optimism is that more and more in finding physicians within community clinics and also within the Indian Health Service that are actually starting to validate some of the traditional approaches to treating not only the body but also the spirit and also the psychological problems of Indian people. In California, urban and rural health clinics operated by Native Americans are taking more responsibility for health care delivery. Couple leaves can provide the framework for understanding not only how to take better care of ourselves but also our relationship to the world in which we live. George Amiat. Likewise with our physical body, there are six directions. There is the north, the southeast and the west and they up and down and we as human beings

are right in the center of all that. We have to understand who we are when we are at and what we are doing and if we don't have healthy bodies, if we don't have healthy minds and we don't have that connection to the spiritual aspect of this beautiful place, this creation, then all this will be taken away and that will be a sad day because this place was created for the great mystery, by the great mystery and he shared it with us to be the guardians of it and take care of it. And I really think that the next 500 years are going to be completely different and I think that the healing that is happening within the Indian community right now will be a healing that will send healing waves throughout other groups and other communities and hopefully

will be the emergence of the new healing for the earth itself. Traditional caring, non-traditional health issues was produced by Kathy Chapman and Victoria Bombary, narrator Kathy Chapman. Thank you so much for your time. Spirits of the present, the legacy from Native America is a co-production of the Native American public broadcasting consortium and radio Smithsonian, coordinator John Cutler, researcher, Eddie Gevens, technical director John Tyler, associate producers Michael Johnson and N. Jameela E. Rollins, the series producer was Peggy Berryhill, executive producers were Frank Blive, Paul Johnson and Wesley Horner, theme music composed and performed by Buffy

St. Marie. Spirits of the present is available on five audio cassettes through the wireless catalog. To order your set, call 1-800-736-3044, visa American Express, discover and master card accepted, call 1-800-736-3044 for ordering information. This program was produced with funds provided by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, the Ford Foundation, the Ruth Mott Fund and the Smithsonian Institution's Educational Outreach Cardinal. In Washington DC, participants hotly contested the resolution Columbus discovered America,

but as Lex Gillespie reports, the focus also shifted to a consideration of the legacy of Columbus's voyage. An audience of about 300 crowded into an Arnate Capitol Hill conference room for the fifth annual Oxford Northwestern University debate. On one side, supporting the resolution that Columbus discovered America, were scholars from Oxford University, the Smithsonian Institution and the Italian American Foundation. Opposing them were a Caribbean-born professor, a native rights advocate, and Northwestern University students. Oxford student Craig McCurley argued first, he portrayed Columbus as a hero, saying that his discovery brought hope and freedom to Europeans.

He said that the morality of the 1990s shouldn't be applied to the 15th century, and that Columbus was not responsible for the abuses that occurred in the five centuries since his arrival. Is it fair, ladies and gentlemen, to lay at Columbus's feet what the later Americans, the descendants of the Dutch and the English did when they got into the country? Because we'll hear from the opposition tonight that Christopher Columbus was responsible for genocide on a massive scale. Now what I would say is this, first of all, I take strong disputes with the idea that what Columbus did was genocide, because the vast majority of those who died when Christopher Columbus came to America died because of disease. Suzanne Harjo, executive director of the Morningstar Foundation, argued that Columbus was a man of his era that produced the brutality of slavery in the Spanish Inquisition. Columbus personally chopped off native peoples' ears, nose, feet, and hands when they would not fill thimbles around their necks full of gold fast enough.

If people didn't die accidentally, coincidentally, residually, tangentially, by disease, whoops, what kind of theory is that? There was outright murder. Those speaking in support of Columbus countered, in essence, that these injustices were all overshadowed by the benefits of his voyage. They attacked what one debater called the deadly seriousness of our politically correct times. Alfred Rotendaro directs the National Italian American Foundation, which conducts conferences and oversees Italian American projects. What Columbus did was to open a new land, and in the process of opening that new land, he did something far more important. He opened a new civilization. He took us from the medieval period into the period of the Renaissance. But the opposition argued that this view overlooks the accomplishments of the native peoples

living in America before 1492. Nathan Smith is a student from Northwestern University. He and others spoke, for example, about the Constitution of the Iroquois people, which some scholars only recently acknowledged as having an influence on the U.S. Constitution. We debate today in Washington, D.C., near the Potomac River, Lake Huron, the Appalachian Mountains from Wisconsin to Alaska, they were here first, living their lives, and leaving their marks on America. So why is it most of us were taught from early on that it was Columbus who discovered America in our sixth grade films, and simply because our Eurocentric biases caused us to completely ignore Native Americans in favor of a more comforting vision of our history, as settlers, brave to belong. Why is it very welcome? We are from Susanne, I'm Cecilio García Camarillo and as you remember, the F Artist story we present our music program as such an important award for our reputation.

on Vicente Saucedo, dos guitarristas que combinan en su experiencia, que más de 60 años, 60, 70 años de experiencia musical, con las guitarras y otros instrumentos. Stanley, thank you for accepting the invitation to be here with us in espejos, to Vicente, igualmente. I know you guys are very busy all the time, so we appreciate you being here. Vicente, do you like the state of San Luis Potosi? Yes, sir. In the city of Villa de la Paz, San Luis Potosi? Yes, exactly. And from when did you meet in the United States? Well, San Luis came to Monterey with the 40. Then he came here in 48 in a row for three months

and he was 49 again for three months. In 50, we went 60, we had a trio and we went 52, we went back three months and we went 54, we went back with Jim de la Peña, who had the first thing he had for the Spanish program, and we played on the open Monday. What about you? In the street... How do we know the street was before? Up here. What about you? Ah, I see. A lot of guys there. I met him, he started playing there. And they gave him six months here, and he was 55 and decided to go to the city to live here. Because if he could, I liked a lot. Albuquerque. He passed away with me. He was also... He was also on the way to the trip. Yes, I liked the people, the people, the people, the people. But Stanley, you're a local guy, huh? Yes, I was here, I was here, I was here in Albuquerque. But when did you travel to Stanley? In fact, generally...

We travel a little bit, but we work here in New Mexico. Ah, I remember. At that time, I remember that I saw you with the new Mexican quartet and you were still in that group? We are still working in Gardunos. And you also have been in the University of New Mexico, music department. Yes, I studied for 15 years, I was also working there. Connector. Connector with Garcia. What did you do there, Stanley? It was a guitar guitar assistant. You played classical guitar or everything? Yes, I played classical guitar and also popular guitar. I was also a Mexican guitarist. Ah... A little bit of everything. Hahaha... According to me, you learned everything about your father's music. Yes. Was he a typical orchestra? Yes. Yes, like 28 musicians, I remember. And from the beginning, did you always play a variety of instruments? Well, my first instrument was the mandolin.

And I thought it was a violinist who never liked to listen to it. But if you learn it, you can learn it all. But you can play the guitar and I like the guitar. I played an instrument with your father's song, Bandolón. I remember it. The big one, right? And then, December that I played between them, 1944. Now, I have one that started me from 18, I was playing guitar. And then, I went to the guitarber then and played violin among the Lisbon high schooleria. I came with the idea and I started to with my father at three years old. Under the high school, playing guitar, playing guitar, playing around again again. So, after that, I started playing that back with my parents. So, I came here 55 years ago, and I was 25 years old when I was a child, I worked here for a village in Fierro, and I worked in the mines in Green, I was also a year old there.

I was in Germany, but I was playing three nights, I had a group of five, I was playing electric guitar, and I was playing in the American Bar, three nights, and I was playing the mines, I was playing at six or ten nights, and then I started playing with a river in the square, when I was 57, and I was like ten years old, and I was going to dedicate myself to play alone. I was like ten years old, I started playing with a trio here, with Tino and Stanley and Guillermo, and other things like that. There were gardeners there. And they were all working there. Stanley has played with quartets, contries, soloists, he has done everything with mariachi. It's worth it, isn't it? At the last moment, he was attending the festival, I know he has an education. Yes. Two years ago, I was going to pay for it. I liked it a lot. I was able to do something different. Yes. And he played with mariachi there. Yes.

And now he was also a festival of mariachi here in Almoquerque. And then he passed it, and he was an instructor there. And this year, again, he spoke to me. It's been a while since I was a child. I'm sorry. These things are very old. It's been a long time. But it has also been accompanied by the sister of Lorenzo, not the violinist. Yes. And for many others, Stanley. There are a lot of players, Andrea. There are a lot of talent here. Local. Today it's Greek, as you can see. I have two LPs that I have done with him. And the Lemparra too. The Lemparra. We recorded a type of religious songs for some years. And the new tapes that we have now that I bring them here. With love, with Ibon. There we are. I live in Vicente, playing too. And the background. Lujani, and other companions. Bill and Ed. Amstet, play there too. Well, here I have my one, Stanley and his guitar. It's very old, he has like 18 years ago.

Yes, he has. You see? Very old. And I just... I just... I was accompanied by the Lemparra. Lulis Pasado. It's also a cassette with religious songs. The Lemparra. The Lemparra. Don't you know him? I think not. But I'm going to sing it. I sing it a lot. It's been years that are here too. It's from Mexico too. But there are a lot of songs that come here. It's from Nino. It's a religious song. Yes. Well gentlemen, I would love to listen to them. I love those fabulous guitars. Yes, we wanted to give them a nice Paso Doble. It's called the Noviero. It's called Paso Doble by Agustín Lara. You see?

Yes. I'm going to sing it. Yes. I'm going to sing it. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Thank you.

Stanley, you started to play guitar at a very early age and I imagine that you have a lot of teachers. One of them was the actor García, who was already living in Miami. What can you tell us? I know that the Lord left here a very wide musical inheritance, right? Yes. The Lord was very respected. It was one of those who were more efficient, naturally, who started this career as a classical guitarist, because there were almost no guitarists here, for example, when he came to visit here in Spain, there was no one, right? And the actor naturally came a lot later, he came here after the BAPX,

when he passed that in Cuba, right? In 1971, I think, or 1970, right? 1962. Yes, but when he was in Cuba, I mean, that came here, I think, in 1962, he started to develop the guitar quite a lot, among many musicians, and now there are a lot of people who are very interested in the guitar. Not only in classical guitar, but naturally in popular guitar and Mexican guitar, right? As a trio music, and in that style. So, you too, Tom Vicente, you have had the opportunity to share your talent with many people here in Mexico? Yes, very well. Yes, when he came to Cuba, then I had a restaurant in the old room, and then I went to his house when a lady invited me to go to meet him. And then, when he was a friend, he came to the city to open,

he came to the restaurant at night, and there we played together in the trio, and then he came back to the place in Corrales, with the drink in Corporero, and then he also played with his brother. And then, in that time, in Cuba, there were three nights per week, and we played together like that, and Mario Abril, too. And then he went to the place there with Nerdy Gallegos, like 8 years old, and he played the fifth and the most expensive guitar in the guitar, and Larry Lveys. It seems like there were very rich times, right? Yes, yes. And then I played there a lot in the old room, as they were there, they were there. And then I played there a lot in the room. Perfect. You also participated a lot in the guitar in New Mexico. And in the United States, there was no more here in New Mexico, because it was known throughout the United States. As we've been, gentlemen, I'll let you know.

And we're learning from another piece that is very, very nice, it's also called a Mario. Okay. Pararrique, Guillermo, and company, Joe, and Rook is wife. Hi. Hi, guys. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.

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I'm going to put it on the table. I'm going to put it on the table. I'm going to put it on the table. Thank you.

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