In Black America; Conversations In Black, with Ed Gordon

From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio, this is In Black America. I started to interview these people and some of the folks that I literally had already done interviews with for the proposed book work. Maya Angelou, she was still with us and Bill Cosby, it shows you how different ones life can be in eight years and so I then got a television project and I had to sideline the book and so maybe about now, two years ago, a year and a half, I got the idea to kind of resurrect the idea and I knew I could use those interviews any longer because they were dated, time had moved on obviously by almost a decade but I thought the idea of getting our best and brightest influencers and thinkers and leaders together in a virtual conversation

would be the thing to do so I picked up the idea, found a publisher who came on board and loved the idea with me and began these conversations. Ed Gordon, Emmy Award winning broadcast journalists and author of Conversations in Black on Power and Politics and Leadership published by Hushed Books. For more than 30 years, Gordon has had a still a career in broadcast journalism. His work has been viewed on BET, NBC, MSNBC and CBS and heard on National Public Radio and the Steve Harvey Morning Show. In his first book title, Conversation in Black, Gordon takes a comprehensive and unbalanced look at the state of Black America. He brings together the diverse group of today's most prominent African American voices for a virtual gathering to discuss what African Americans and the community go from here, with the current state of affairs in this country.

At the time of this reduction, it's uncanny that Gordon has written a book that touches on the issues that America faces today. I'm Johnny Ohanson Jr. and welcome to another edition of In Black America. On this week's program, Conversations in Black on Power, Politics and Leadership with Ed Gordon in Black America. I didn't want it to just be a conversation, talking fine, but action has to follow the conversation if you're going to change things. I did not like the idea of putting the questions at the back of the chapter. That was really my agent and my publisher who wanted to do that and I will say I will fall on my sword that we've heard from a lot of people who said they appreciated those questions at the back of the chapter because it gave them something to start on. There are a lot of people who don't necessarily know how and where to start. I tell people all the time, don't wait on someone. Don't sit there and think that you have to have a leader to come to you and show you

the way to go that you are a leader, whether it's in your home or your neighborhood or just with yourself, there are leadership qualities we all possess. Intelligent, inspiring, honest, hard-hitting and direct. Are some of the words that have been used to describe Ed Gordon over his three-decade career both in television and radio. Born and raised in Detroit, Michigan, he was a graduate of Western Michigan University with a degree in communications, EmpliDical Science. He began his career at WTBS, the PBS affiliate in the motor city. Gordon has worked at BET twice, NBC, MSNBC, CBS, and NPR. In 2012, Gordon began thinking about writing a book all about the conversations he has had with Newfmakers over the course of his career. Conversations in black is the completion of that thought. The book aims to create a new narrative for people of color in their community quest

for equality in this country. Speaking with over 40 top leaders and influences, Gordon's book is a treasure trove of ideas and opinions recently in black America's spoke with Ed Gordon. Well, you know, Detroit was a town I spent my formative years there born in 1960, so you know, grew up through the 60s and 70s and Detroit. And it was a city that really, as you think about where we sit today, gave you a sense of black pride. You know, it was one of those early cities that had a black mayor. You had black professionals, teachers, doctors, lawyers, so you know, you really grew up with a sense if you were lucky enough to be born in the right zip code that you could make it. And it was one of those things that really ran the gamut between those who didn't see college as an option. You could go to, you know, a plant and make a solid middle class living. And then often you saw those parents give their children the next step up and, you know, made sure that they received a college degree.

And for those of us whose parents may have already traveled that road, the expectation was that you were going to go to college. And so for me, man, it was really one of those magical places that you saw people of color in positions of power and you just naturally believe that you could one day be there as well. So I am proud to say that I am from Detroit. Cash check was the full runner of what we call magnet schools today. What was it like at that experience? You know, it's funny. Cash was one of those, as you suggest, magnet schools for people from all over the city came. And it is one of the most famous, most famous high schools in America and it's funny because people will say to me, you know, what is it about cash? I do a lot of stuff with Steve Harvey and was on his radio program not too long ago. And Tommy his co-host was saying to me, man, what is it about cash? You know, everybody that comes out of there, it's successful. And while that's not quite true, I will say that cash was one of those schools again that gave you the belief that you could be successful, that you could compete with anyone.

You know, it wasn't anything magical in the water. It wasn't anything that can't be duplicated. There was just a sense of an expectation of, you will do, you can do. And that the fact that you had to test into that school made you believe that you could do all of the things that your teachers were telling you that you could do. And so a lot of it was simply environment and the sense of expectation that you will succeed. And it rubbed off on all of us, I think. Now Michigan is the state with top-rate colleges and universities. Why Western Michigan? So for me, it was simply this, while I got into cash, I didn't always take cash seriously. And so Western Michigan was one of the schools that I could get into relatively easily. And went into a summer program, it was called the MLK program, the Martin Luther King Junior program, for students that they wanted to see if they could handle the rigors of college. And I knew that I could handle it, and I knew that my grades were more reflective of me hanging

out than my abilities. And so being who I was, I said, after taking, you were supposed to do the summer semester. And then they would see what your grades were and see how serious you were about it. So it was two semesters of the program, you had to do the summer semester and a full year of what they required you to take. And so they were really, really easy class, almost like basket weave or some crap like that. And I said to them, I said, look, my mother's pants for this. I don't have time to take these kinds of courses. I'll tell you what, let's make a deal. I said, if I get above a 3.5 in the summer semester and the first semester of the fall, can I get out of the program where I can now pick my own courses and design my way through this? So they said yes to their credit and I was able to move forward. But you know, those programs are truly important because there are a lot of kids who don't have the opportunity.

They have the smarts, but they don't have the opportunity to test into colleges, perhaps they may not have had the kind of school that gives you the foundation yet your afforded attitude allows you in. So that's really why I went to Western. It was a fact of not choice, but that's kind of where I could go. I began to take a look at the University of Michigan as a transfer, had put paperwork in. It was going to go there. But I tell you, man, I stayed at Western. It was a smaller school. And it really gave me everything that I needed. And I tell people all the time, you know, a degree from Harvard is fine. It certainly gives you certain opportunities that others don't have and networks that others don't have. And I think of somebody like Dan Rather, who went to Sam Houston University, it really isn't the university as much as the person, you know, that kind of brings you to the height of success. There are a lot of people that never went to college who become Uber successful. So I try to tell young people, think less about the school than it is the effort you're putting into it.

Obviously, Mr. Gordon, you've had a stellar career thus far. So what was that initial impetus for journalism? I thought that I either wanted to be a lawyer. And that was kind of my first love or a journalist. I would always pretend and watch the guys on the local news and people on the national news. And I'd be in the lunchroom pretending like I was given a newscast in junior high school. But really, my first love was the law and thought I wanted to be a lawyer simply because, you know, that was what was cool on TV. And then I graduated from high school and then graduated from college and really had taken the LSAT or prepared, I should say, for the LSAT and, you know, the pre-law exam and was looking and thinking about law school. But I didn't relish the thought of going back to school. I was so sick of school that my cousin, who was in law school at the time, used to come to my mother's house on the weekends to get a home cooked meal. And while he was in law school, he literally, we'd seen Friday, he'd eat Friday night dinner.

And the only time we'd see him come out of our basement was to eat. I mean, his, you know, nose to grinds on in those books. And I was like, man, I don't want to do this. So I spent a year with no job. My job really was getting out with my boy throwing the baseball in front of his mom's house. We did that like it was our job on summer. And I said, dude, if we don't stop doing this, we're going to be doing this at 50. And so I volunteered at the public broadcasting affiliate in Detroit, my brother's old girlfriend worked there. So she wasn't speaking to him anymore. She did still like me. So she got me in as an intern. And I just, from that point on, worked my butt off until they hired me. And, you know, I just kept kind of climbing that ladder, telling people I wanted to do. I was one of those eager people who wanted to maybe even do more than they were equipped to do, but to all of the credit who were the early people in my life by means of career. Many of them saw how much I wanted it and just gave me opportunity and shared their wisdom

with me. And that took me from being an intern to a fortuitous opportunity to host a show and then take over that show when the talent left. And then from there, I went to BET and had been running ever since. If you're just joining us, I'm Johnny O'Handson Jr., and you're listening to End Black America from KUT Radio. And we're speaking with Ed Gordon, Emmy Award-Willing Journalist, Talk Show Host, and author of his first book, Conversation in Black on Power, Politics and Leadership. Mr. Gordon, 2012, you began this project. What was it about 2012 that led you to write this book? After anything about the particular year, and the reality is, the idea came to me in 2012 of trying to do a conversation with all of the people that I'd been able to talk to over the course of my career, you know, I've kind of made a name for myself for interviewing

folks. And I said, man, wouldn't it be great if I could get some of these people in the same room and write a book as if we were holding a conversation? It's a permanent just been killed, and Barack Obama was going into second term, and I had started to interview these people, and some of the folks that I literally had already done interviews with for the proposed book were Maya Angelou, she was still with us, and Bill Cosby, it shows you how different ones' lives can be in eight years. And so I then got a television project, and I had to sideline the book. And so maybe about now, two years ago, a year and a half, I got the idea to kind of resurrect the idea, and I knew I couldn't use those interviews any longer, because they were dated, and time had moved on, obviously, by almost a decade, but I thought the idea of getting our best and brightest influences and thinkers and leaders together in a virtual conversation would be the thing to do.

So I picked up the idea, found a publisher who came on board and loved the idea with me and began these conversations, and so the book reads as if we're all talking together in one room, though none of us were, I was kind of the linchpin to everyone. And each chapter is a different topic, and Johnny, the ironic thing is I wrote the book because even in 2012, I thought Black America was in need of new narratives. I thought we'd reached a plateau, and that America really wasn't listening to us anymore. And some of the things that we were demanding America was turning away, and we seemingly in my mind had been trying to get America to listen with the same tactics. And so I thought some of our leadership had become a little stale and state, and the approaches that we took to try to continue down this road to justice. And now the irony is, the book couldn't be any more relevant if I had planned it because all of what we talk about in the book is exactly what's being talked about now from police

brutality to our representation in business and in corporate America to our images on television to the importance of the 2020 election, to the effect that Trump has had on Black America. We reflect on the Obama years. We even have a chapter called Am I Black enough for you? Because what I'm encouraging us to do is we're asking white to take a look at how they view us and treat us. I would say the same to our community. We're still caught up in what's authentically Black and who decides if you're Black enough. And I think we need to take a real look at how we define what Black is. In the book I say, and I've said this for many years, we're still very much into that light skin, dark skin thing, but if it's simply melanin and hue, then what you're saying is Clarence Thomas is Blacker than Louis Farcom, and I'll take that bet any day if you want to go with that. So, you know, we tried to be very honest about what we talk about in this book and the one thing that I will say, and the line up, as you know, Johnny is tremendous, the people

we were able to bring to the table, but I was just very appreciative that everybody was very candid and very honest about what we talked about. Why was it important for you to have old school and new school, meaning you have a younger generation, trained up thought, but then you have some of the old vanguards? Well, because that's the reality of who we are as a people. I mean, you know, we run literally in that book from somebody like TI and Killer Mike to, you know, pundits like Angela Ryan and Tiffany Cross and Bacari Sellers to, you know, mainstream traditional leadership, people like Maxine Waters and Stacey Abrams and Al Sharpton and Mark Morial and Derek Johnson of the NAACP, and, you know, I tried to even get the right leaning folks like Michael Steele or just in any number of folks that we were able to sit down over 40 of our best and brightest are in the book and I just felt like it

wouldn't be a fair representation of who we are if we simply talk to, you know, those over 45 who have traditionally been our leadership, you know, what we're seeing in the streets today shows this movement that we're in the midst of today doesn't happen without young people. And what we're seeing now is it's going to take all of us that we have, you know, we always talk about not being a monolithic. So I didn't want it to be monolithic. So, you know, we hear from Eric Holder in the book, but we also hear from Alicia Garza, co-founder of Black Lives Matter. And she talks about how, at one point, you know, the Obama administration she felt was being a little toned up to police brutality and what was going on. And so, you know, I say it's very honest. I found that, and I've found over my lifetime, and you know, this having interviewed so many people, you know, people tend to be more honest

quite frankly before that microphone comes on. And when the microphone comes on, they start to think, oh, what's politically correct? What's, so in doing this, and I've always been blessed to have people be probably as honest as they were going to be, you know, and I've sat down with them. I will say this time, I think they were even more honest because there's no red light, there's no microphone in front of them. It was really just adding that person, either face-to-face or on a telephone doing these interviews. And they were a bit more open, I think, than they may have been, had there been a camera there. During this process of interviewing these individuals, were there any eye-high moments that kind of caught you out guard from one of the individuals you spoke with? Not necessarily a-ha moments, I mean, because I'm so steep in many of these topics, there was nothing that I wasn't expecting, but I think what is a a-ha moment is the candor of, you know, these folks, as I said, I think about what Harry Belafonte said. And, you know, he made it clear in no uncertain

terms that he felt that Barack Obama didn't do enough for black people, you know, and he was in office. You know, the candor of some of the young guard, feeling still, and this is no surprise, that's why it's not an eye-al-moment, but still feeling like, as every generation finds, that when it's their turn, when it's their next person up, the old guard doesn't want to let go of the reins very easily. I think the old guard felt they had a better relationship with the young guard than vice versa. And while they still appreciate it one another and respect it one another to agree, I think, like most generations, each thinks that they have the best way to move us forward. And I think what will be interesting is we look at how life is playing itself out now is, with all of these disparate voices we have out here representing Black America, how do you find common ground and bring some of those voices together? And then if you can't come together, how do you respect it? Okay, you take that lane and I'll take this lane as long as we're shooting

for the middle and what's best for all of us. You know, how do you keep that going without stepping on one another or getting in one another's way and allowing that fight to sidetrack the bigger fight and that is from, you know, America in and of itself and why America specifically to finally say, look, we've still after all these years been unjust to a people and we want to try to correct that. I find it interesting when you just articulated that in the book, you somewhat clarify activism and what activism looked like. Obviously, being clairvoyant to a certain extent, you hit the hammer on the head of the nail. Well, I wish I could, I wish I could give it to clairvoyant because I would play the lottery later on the day if that was the case, but I will tell you that it was just a feeling of gut feeling that I had and it was also just having conversations with different people and listening and so I felt there was some loosening of the undergird that has kept us for this long. I felt kind of bubbling tension in America just in general. I felt

a sense of black America is tired of being underpaid, under listened to, undervalued, underappreciated that our lives didn't matter in the same way and it didn't take a rocket scientist to really sit back and realize that there was something that was going to snap us. I could never have predicted it would be George Floyd and that incident, but it wasn't hard for me to see that we were on that road, which is why in talking about there's a chapter on black men, you know, there's an issue with black men not only with police and being killed and it's not just with young black men, but there is also as we all know, unfortunately, a problem in us respecting ourselves and the killing that goes on in our communities, but it's not the simple kind of write-off that America is given and that is just that young black men are wild and violent and all of those things. No,

that's that's misguided to believe that. It's all of the things that we are talking about now that brought those young black men to that place. And so, you know, when you see the death of someone like Kobe Bryant or Nipsey Hussle and see what we talk about in the book and the kind of personification of who they were and how they were seen by young black men all wanting, I think, most wanting to attain that level of success, maybe not from a dollar perspective, but just from a sense of being able to change your life. You know, the young Kobe Bryant that came into the NBA was not the same Kobe Bryant who retired and had become a father and had found a different kind of responsibility. You know, the young Nipsey Hussle who started in the rap game and you know, ran with gangs and was not the one that we unfortunately lost on that safeful day. You know, there is a sense of growth that needs to be talked about in our community, particularly with our

young black men. And so, again, it's a different narrative, a new narrative, and that's what I wanted this book to be. How did you come up with the questions that you are circulated to the guest? Well, man, if there was any one easy part of that, I've been doing this for 30 years or if I had to really stumble over one kind of questions as you should be talking to me today. So, yeah, you know, I mean, obviously you do some research as relates to the topic that you want to talk about in that chapter, and you just formulate your questions, but I only had a few questions because I wanted it to read like a conversation. I wanted it really to be if I could have had a big barbecue in the summer and invited all these people over, I wouldn't have had 10 or 12 questions in front of me. We would have just started talking about all of these things. And in turn, the conversation would go like most conversations around dinner table goes. Somebody interjects something, somebody says something, and so the hardest part was to make sure that I was staying true to what that person was saying in terms of how they were giving it to me,

what the context was, and making sure that I was clear when I jufted the pose, someone else's response, that it was fair and in the context that they were giving it to me. So, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't out of place. And I think that we were able to do that. I haven't received any complaints from anybody yet, so we must go. All right. Now, obviously the book is, is ascertaining and trying to extract emotions and some type of thought processes, but the end of each chapter, there are some action things that need to take place. Why was that important to be included in the book? Well, I'll tell you, that's a funny thing about those questions. So, I always wanted to say in the book that it, you know, I didn't want it to just be a conversation. Talking's fine, but action has to follow the conversation if you're going to change things. I did not like the idea putting the questions at the back of the chapter. That was really my agent and my publisher who wanted to do that. And I will say, I will, I will follow on my sword that we've heard from a lot of

people who said they appreciated those questions at the back of the chapter because it gave them something to start on. You know, there are a lot of people who don't necessarily, don't necessarily know how and where to start. I tell people all the time, don't wait on someone. You know, don't, don't sit there and think that you have to have a leader to come to you and show you the way to go, that you are a leader, whether it's in your home or your neighborhood or just with yourself, there are leadership qualities we all possess. And so that was, I thought, after hearing from readers, something that was good for a lot of people who just didn't know what to look at or where to go after that. So again, I'm going to follow my sword. I can't take a little credit for that, but glad it's there. A couple of more questions, Mr. Gordon. I got to let you go. Was it difficult and convincing a publisher to publish this work? So I will say that, Tashette and Christine Troutman, who was the editor of the book, who brought the book to the publishing company and said, hey, I want to do this.

She saw the vision. And so she was able to articulate it. And really, she was the first company that we went to. And with her up front telling the company, this is a book that's needed. We didn't even have to go any place else. I'm not sure that we would have had the same reception to be honest from other publishing companies. I don't know that. But she's a sister. And as you know, often when you have someone who really believes and really understands what a project is about, they will, you know, kind of forward in a different way. So I was glad we didn't have to do too much shopping of it. And was pleased to have, you know, a sister who got it from day one, fighting for us to make it happen. We always ask this question at the end of interview, particularly with office. What do you want readers to come away with? Just a sense and a belief that, and I think again, made it easier by where we sit today that we are in need of new narratives

and that we are, you know, in control of how we act, you know, the sense of when people say the saying, control your own destiny. If you really look at the definition of destiny, you can't control that. That's going to happen no matter what. But you do have control over how you act with what the world gives to you. Ed Gordon, Emmy Award winning broadcasts, journalists and author of conversations in black, on power, politics, and leadership. If you have questions, comments or suggestions asked your future in Black America programs, email us at in blackamerica at kut.org. Also, let us know what radio station you heard is over. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast and follow us on Facebook. You can get previous programs online at kut.org. The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessarily those of this station or of the University of Texas at Austin. Until we have the opportunity again

for a technical producer, Dave and Alvarez, I'm Johnny O. Hanson Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week. CD copies of this program are available and may be purchased by writing in black America CDs, KUT radio, 300 West Dean Keaton Boulevard, Austin, Texas, 78712. That's in black America CDs, KUT radio, 300 West Dean Keaton Boulevard, Austin, Texas, 78712. This has been a production of KUT radio.