#97 Joe Sando; Sc97; Interview with Joe S. Sando, Part 4

Okay, can you tell me about the impact of the Carlisle Indian school on the problems? It didn't affect the problems very much, however, the people living along the Santa Bay Trail, Laguna and Accommod, and maybe beautiful Santa Clara would call out which is an Indian school in Pennsylvania. I believe in Dickinson College is there today. What was the, what were they trying to do at the Carlisle Indian school? It was started for some of these planes of the planes people of the East Coast who fought advancing Americans. So this general who founded the school thought that if he could educate these young warriors to become Christians, there would be no more wars. Okay, one of the things about Carlisle Indian school was they didn't let you speak your own language. Can you tell me about that? Well, Carlisle Indian school was very determined to make Christians out of these

students who went there. Everything, well, although we got the Berlin. Okay, what was the US government trying to do with Indian schools? The US government contract with mission schools to have them educate the public children. The idea was to teach them to perform work that they would be using when they turned home, like learning to be farmers, learn about cattle or horses, working with modern farm implements. Did they attempt to eradicate the language and culture of people? Well, usually that was the main idea which is to eradicate cultures and keep them from speaking in the language, but it was very difficult in the public because culture was so strong that maybe

they didn't speak at school, that they knew the language and in the government they spoke the language, but not before the teacher who was observing the rules of no native language being spoken. And the people, people have been used to authority. Every public has been ruled either in the city, with the war chief war captains and native governments. So as compared to me, other Indian clubs that I have learned about, the pupils are very respectful of authority because they are in communities and they see all the authority in the community. So when they went to school, they were expected to turn. This was brought up by the study made with the 100 year anniversary of the Senate of the East. Just for the audience, can you define Kaseke for me? Kaseke was a term brought to this area by the Spanish because when they got to the Mediterranean area, the Caribbean area, I mean the

headman in that area, the arrow line of the time of time. They called their leader the Kaseke. So as they went island hopping into Mexico, the Spanish would say, who is your Kaseke? Meaning who is your head leader? So when they came to this area, that was the first day asked. So they found a whole spanning for looking for. So they met the religious leader of the community who is the overall leader of the community. So that's how this term brought up into the public future. And it's a positive term here as compared to in Mexico, in Mexico as we're considered the same way. How does the Kaseke differ from a governor? How do the governor? Well, the Kaseke is a traditional leader. Whereas the governor is a position created by the Spanish. And to deal with the outside world, where as the Kaseke, if religious, within the community. Did you go to an Indian school, Joe? I went to, I went to the South Indian school, graduate, 19, what do you think about that

experience personally? Well, that was where I learned how to stick English and I learned a tree which was cabinet making. And I still do it today. Did you like the experience? How did you feel about it? Well, as far as that went, I learned a tree that I didn't learn the tree art for you then. Because in those days, the teachers never thought they could work in the political college. Did you go to college? Yes. With my experience in the service of your navy. When I was a navy, when the Queens went out to strike, we used to wait in the flight back and talk about what we were trying to do up to the war. So really, these kids that I was a navy, are upset that they were going to college and they were trying to prevent me from going to the city of motion. So I had been to school and college already. I was refreshment for the end of the navy. I personally had no university to do the end of the

navy. So when I returned, I came back and went to Eastern Mexico because I wanted to play football. Here, can you tell me that you're a veteran of World War II and how you felt when you came back to the Mexico and couldn't vote? Well, those kind of things were forward to me because I grew up not voting and we were just part of the system that we lived in. And you know, those days being young, all I had in mind after the war was to go to college and get an education and make a fair living. Okay. Let me give you two more questions that I'm going to be done, I think. First of all, looking over this entire period of contact, how would you compare Spanish, Mexican and American periods? The public had been under three flags, the Spanish, the Mexican, the American. And because of the records from

the Spanish, I would say that we lived better than the Spanish because we were governed by the loss of Indians. And as I indicated earlier, under the Mexican administration, we became equal but there were some negative ideas behind having equal. And under the American, most Indians believed that we lost most of our land in the American system. So, you think the American period was the most harsh for global peoples? I don't know if you can really say it's harsh, but we had problems with the interior sector in the past. However, after World War II, when my peers returned from services, we went to colleges and many of us became teachers. So, we were the models for other people's students.

That's a result. The next generation also went to colleges and we're not teachers, but other fields. So, today, we have attorneys, medical doctors, and all kinds of professionals that American people also have. Okay. Now, if you had a message for the youth of the world, what would you say to them? Well, it's a natural thing for me to say because I have been an educator all my life. And my message would be that a couple of students should get a good education in whatever fields they want to make a good living. Okay. Okay. The couple of students should get a good education and with this good education, they can make it a culture. Okay. One last question

from me at least. I pass other people. But, in the pilot, there's one thing I may want to replace. And you're describing, who have a culture, who have a life before contact. Can you describe, who have a life before the arrival of Europeans? Well, who have a life before Europeans arrived, consisted of farming and supplementing their farming by hunting? I don't think they fished in this area, but they were farming and supplementing their food by hunting, buffalo, antelope, deer, bear, and all these kind of things. And because this is a semi -married country, low rainfall, they spent much of their time fasting and praying for good weather. And praying for good weather. Most of their

time throughout the year, and other times they spent dancing to ask for more animals during winter months, they have buffalo dance due to their food. But more will be available in pumpkin season. With the pupils, the Spaniards brought us many things that we are using and have been using. But with other tribes, for instance, some of the Atlantic tribes who met the British. The British have a system where they overcame the world. And this is what happened to those Indians who met the British first from the New England to the Atlantic as far as the Carolina. It's not fraud, but the Carolina. And then those Indians who met the French. The French were a little different from the British. They did not discriminate. They lived with Indians and married Indian women. So eventually, many

of the tribes who entered the French territory were engulfed by the French culture. Catch names, friends, marriages to friends, all these things. And then those in the Alaskan area, who met the Russians, had a very sad experience. Because many of them, alien men, were slaughtered by the Russians. And many of them were Russian men, then married. So the culture in that particular area is predominantly Russian today. Russian names, Russian church, and all these things. To the one thing I want to ask you another question was, as a Native American historian, what are some of the gross abuses, I guess, the way that history has been told? We talk about revisioning, we talk about that. Well, I believe when the researchers came to New Mexico, to interview global people,

these researchers definitely spoke English. And maybe very little Spanish. But the public was speaking Spanish. So a lot of the material that they wrote were strong. And many of the students in the colleges today are finding that out. Some of the books written earlier have many errors. But then, any time, the book has been published, the information, because it comes as part of the Bible, and the students go from that particular book. But many times, in these things, they're not telling me that. What are some examples? Oh, apparently. One example, a Native, what's her name? Alcyclus Parsons came to study the public, and among other things, she recorded genealogies.

And she wrote a book about chemists, and left my grandmother completely out, although she mentioned her sister, her brother, that didn't include my grandmother. So that left my dad and two uncles out in her genealogy. But there are many other things that book that I found to be not exactly as famous in the country. How do we go about correcting history, shall we? The only way you can correct history, write books about your tribal history. What do we start again? The only way we can correct history? The only way we can correct history is for tribal members to write their own history. I have written a book about the history of Hamish public, and another book about the public will be coming out next month in February 1992. What does Hamish... Okay, we

say Hamish. How do you say Hamish properly, and what does Hamish mean? Well, to the Hamish people, we are Hamish, and from this word, the Spanish capital of Hamish. We've got high heels. Yes, we do. Well, they're medium heels, but they're still noisy. Do you want to try this one? Okay. Jo, can you step that way just a little bit? A little bit more. Okay, same question. How do the name Hamish derive, and what do the Hamish people call themselves? The Hamish people call themselves huge, so the Spanish heard that they wrote down Hamish according to their language. Can we go back to the three flags, and can you characterize again what was the main difference between the three of the Spanish, the Mexican, and the American? But if you

could give me some examples for the Spanish, and then one for the Mexican. On of the Spanish flag, as I indicated, we were pretty well protected according to the laws of the Indians. And they went as far as to give us land grains, which are definitely our lands today that the American government cannot catch. Because there is other land that the American government gave to the public as well. Is that a little bit left? No, a little bit. No, it wasn't. It's in my book, but I... You still know them? Okay.

We want you to compare each one of the three periods, giving us one good example, good that they did, one example that's bad that they did. Well, on of the Spanish flag, we were well protected by under the laws of the Indians, which were Spanish -positive. We were given land grains, which we still have today, cannot be touched by any kind of land. And later on, as the Spanish grew in numbers, they began to move closer to the proper land, and some were given land grains, near the public, against the rules of the laws of the Indians. And then, under the Mexican government, they were especially relaxed in trying to solve land problems as the public. And was there anything good about the Mexican period?

Well, at the beginning, the attempt of making them equal probably considered good, but it didn't turn out possible in the end. And with the American system, we lost most of the land that we thought we owned. However, the American education system, beginning after World War II, has been a plus, because the role models, who were war veterans, and their children getting higher education than their parents. So that today, we are competing professionally with our own attorneys, with our own doctors, with our own teachers, our own administrators. Even your own directors. You know, I'm very, very pleased to meet you. I'm very pleased to meet

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