¡Colores!; 305; Santero; Interview with Marie Romero Cash; Tape 3

We'll get it. Wasn't it true that the old-time centauros would go into a village and kind of make barter beans corn and whatnot? I mean, they made a living as well. And surely there were those people who were wealthy and could pay them in Canada. I don't know if you had this or whatever it was, or whatever it was computed to. And so, you know, I think no bones about the fact that this makes a living for me. And that's why, you know, some of my pieces are folk garden. I don't try to tell people, oh, you shouldn't put that in the corner of the fireplace. And whatever brings you joy in that way, it doesn't become such a... of the stories of the centauros. You know, every centauros has a history of story behind it. That people use those stories as a particular power, particular thing that they are good at.

And that's what people learn. What's your favorite story? What do you like? Which story do you like the most and why? One of the most favorite stories I have is about the Santoninho. It's a legend that during World War II, the Santoninho at Santuario, the Chimayo, used to travel at night overseas and pray with the prisoners and take care of them and meet their needs, give the prisoners water. And then he would come back and therefore his shoes would be worn out. So it was something that was done in the 1940s, early 1950s. People used to have to take the Santoninho shoes and leave them there in front of his little niche, because he was traveling so much during the night, finding prisoners of war

and taking care of their needs and then walking all the way back to Chimayo. And that's always stuck with me, one of my favorite stories, that this little Ninho would wear out his moccasins or his shoes and therefore it was important for us to take him shoes to Chimayo. So in the reasons why when you go to Chimayo, you see a lot of little baby shoes tied in front of the Santoninho or hanging on the wall. And that story always stuck to me, whether it was a legend or whether it was true, I never questioned it. I just thought that yes, this is something that actually happened and people are grateful for the Santoninho having brought many of the prisoners of war and many of the soldiers back to the arms of their parents. In fact, as I understand that there were very few soldiers from northern New Mexico killed during the war and the reason was because people had great faith in the Santoninho and what he was capable of.

Which piece do you like to carve the most? Well, one of the pieces I like to carve the most is the Holy Trinity. The reason for that is the degree of difficulty, of course. You have to attempt to carve three identical figures and I always find that as a challenge. But I also like the piece because it represents the mysteries of our faith. One of the great mysteries of our faith is actually having the faith itself to believe that the things that have happened in Christianity have happened. And the Trinity represents God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost, all as one person but depicted as three distinct identical people.

And I've always found that to be a great challenge and really enjoy doing that piece. Last year I did a Trinity but I added the Blessed Virgin to it and called it a Quadrinity. And I wasn't trying to say that the Blessed Virgin was of equal importance as the three persons of the Trinity. I was just trying to elevate her to what I thought her status was as being the mother of Christ and it was a piece I enjoyed adding her to the Trinity. I got quite a few comments though and as I wasn't surprised that I got a few comments. But that was my reason for doing it. I had such reverence to the Blessed Virgin that in my own mind I wanted to elevate her to her status as a next to her son. And that's where it placed her next to the Trinity. Let me talk about the attributes a little bit of pieces.

And I'm looking for kind of a general statement that you would use, like a lady of Guadalupe maybe as an example, of a sense of being stylized throughout the ages and have certain attributes around them and kind of widening the balance, you know. One of the things that you will always find in the Santos is their attributes. In other words, Saint Raphael the Archangel always carries a fish. He's always depicted holding a fish or two. And the reason for that is, vividly, he is said to have burned a fish and used the ashes to heal the eyes of a blind man. And therefore the blind man was able to see. Our later Guadalupe is generally shown with a blue cape from which rays are emanating. And she is being held up by a small angel.

And sometimes she's seen in Mexican art primarily with the Juan Diego at her side, the person she appeared to. But normally the Guadalupe will be in a red dress and a blue cape filled with stars and the little angel holding it up. Why do you suppose that these attributes started? I imagine that many of the attributes that the Santeno used were taken from the prints from which they created the object. There were many prints and engravings that had come down through their travels with either with a priest or in prayer books or in images they had seen in the different churches. And so most of them tried to be faithful to the attributes that they expressed that they exposed these Santos too.

Maybe we can stop carving for just a few minutes. In northern to Mexico most of the faith that is expressed comes during Easter, you know, holy week and chimio and the pilgrimages and the strong belief that people have that the miracle can occur in their lives. So it isn't so much that if a community has a miracle that is attributed to a saint then there is great veneration that is established for that particular saint. I think what it is is most of the miracles have occurred in the past whether they be legendary or factual and so consequently the community at large develops the necessary faith to follow that sainto.

The Santonino at chimio is extremely important, extremely well known as are the legends involving the crucifix that was supposedly buried at the site and that's why the church is built there. I don't know that there are any stories that aren't well known that haven't been actually documented during the WPA writings. Many of the stories were documented then and many of the stories have been documented in publications which have occurred since then. So many of the communities are bound by the patron saint of their church. In other words in a rio ando you have our lady of sorrows and then a rio seco you have the holy trinity and of course these churches have the depictions of these particular saints in them. You also have the great art that is at trumpas San Jose. You have the old San Jose that was carved in around 1760 and is still there.

Over the years, 237 years that Santon has stood there without ever being taken out or sold or destroyed or harmed in any way and the veneration is very strong as far as San Jose is concerned. So different communities have their special Santo and that is not say one is greater than the other. What it is saying is that because these people have such a strong faith, this is the reason the Santos and the church have persevered through hundreds of years in that case. Some of the early surveys between 1776 and 1833, there were a number of surveys done to determine what was in each church and if you take those surveys and you take the current survey that we did in 1987, you will find the two things exist. Either there are many more Santos as in the case of probably Chimayo or there are a great number less in the churches now than existed in those days and most of it is accounted for by the Santos were either stolen or they were sold or are now in collectors or museums or however.

But nonetheless, there are many churches in the north which still have the original Santos that were there in 1776 and it is quite powerful to see that when you see them and you are able to hold them and touch them and my thought is always if the walls of this church could speak. The history is right within the walls and the Santos and none of us have access to it. But these Santos have sat on the altars and they have seen people, they have seen tragedies, they have seen funerals, they have seen great joy and also periods of great remorse and other things. So the Santos have seen everything and they still stand there and they are cared for by the Maradamos, they are dressed and you know dressing the Santos has been one of the things that has actually been a boon to preserving the Santos because the clothes are changed continuously either by the season and you get these women who create these wonderful dresses for the Santos and when you lift the dresses up,

the Santos is in its almost original state, it is fascinating to see that. But no particular saint that I know of has been responsible for pulling a community together more than their own particular patron saint and every community has a patron saint. You know, Truchas has a Nuestra Signora del Rosario and as I said a royal ondo has Nuestra Signora del Lustolores and other churches have San Jose and St. Francis. So each of the areas are perfused with saints that are the patron saint of the area. Yeah, I think what I meant to say was was more the tradition that was pulling it together not necessarily any individual one but the fact that each community has their own one.

It also kind of binds it to the whole of the Catholic Church, more than one saint who is somewhere being venerated by everyone. I wasn't really quite give you the right introduction to that. I think what I wanted to say was if you could talk a little bit about how the whole tradition binds each community, it gives each community an identity but within the Catholic Church. Does that make sense? Could you agree? Rough question. Well, primarily I think that because of the Santos in the churches and in these older communities, many of these communities have been able to strengthen their faith through the worship that they have for that particular Santo. And in the process, the veneration of the Santos and either at home or in the churches has managed to pull the Catholic community together as a whole because there are Santos throughout the northern area and overall in the Mexico which have made the idea very present that

there is still a very strong faith in the northern communities, strong Catholic faith and it continues to be so. More so than in any other part in the Mexico, I think northern to Mexico still reflects the faith that was present in the colonial times. And I think it's because of their remoteness and the fact that they have not been exposed to a great deal of modern things that are going on. Perfect, perfect. Okay, let me just kind of one more question.

What do you hope to contribute to the world kind of as your own personal legacy? What do you hope that when you're gone, what do you hope people will either remember you by or by your work? What do you hope to leave? Well, I think that everybody has their 15 minutes of fame or 15 seconds of fame, whatever translates to. I have always tried to express in my work a certain amount of individuality and a hope that by being exposed to my work that it somehow brings out that person's faith and spirituality and appreciation for the art of the Santero. I do know that I was honored and blessed in being allowed to paint the stations of the cross where the cathedral.

And I think that is my contribution. If I never do anything else of that same magnitude, the presence of the stations of the cross in the cathedral will be very important for me. Because not only will my ancestors, well, it is an ancestors that will look at it. Generations? Generations, I guess. The coming generations will look at these and know that that will have been my contribution to the art and also as a Santero. I, sweetheart, we're going to have to do that over and over again. She may warn out. She'll do it. She's not long enough. I've pushed button down. Okay, let's begin. Maybe we can go over again what you hope to leave when you're gone. What do you hope your work will leave?

It is my hope that we have a warning. There we go. Now we're all. Okay, again, I'm sorry. I've completely gotten off the track. What do you hope to leave behind your work? I think that many of us strive to.