¡Colores!; 1302; Promises Kept: WPA Art Treasures of New Mexico; Kathy Interview

I don't think I've ever heard anyone talking that so far, all those guys are kind of worried that we're in the same day or so. The New Deal federal art projects were probably extremely valuable in that it helped the Hispanic crafts persons and artisans to create the things and have them shown that they may never have had the opportunity to do otherwise. So we have buildings and the furniture inside of them and the core bells and the tin work and all kinds of things that were created, including the courtyard that we're sitting

in at the moment at the National Park Service Building. So it gave them an opportunity to show off their skills, which probably in some respects were taken for granted, beyond that they did weavings, they did all kinds of artwork. And then one special thing that came out of it was the portfolio of Spanish colonial design, which was a compilation of renderings of the, probably the Spanish colonial Northern New Mexico Catholic artwork that was typical of that part of the state. And that all was recorded, people were given opportunities to do a whole set of them so that a lot of people were employed so that it not only was a great make work activity, but it also gave the Hispanic cultural a real essence in a way of showing it off. Great.

Yeah, no one's too happy with that one, but- Well, it mattered a little bit. Yeah. What a, what a cast of characters we got there. And also, I'm interested in knowing, I'm going to stop down. In New Mexico, I know that we've had at least 162 different individuals that worked on some part of the different federal art projects. I've seen another figure of 206, but I know of 162. And they were, from all cultures and from all lifestyles in New Mexico, there were fine artists that were already known and there were artists that evolved as a result of this project. And some who never did any else, so you have everything. There were many who refined their work as a result of this opportunity.

And some who went on that moved, for example, Bill Lunkins moved from his art to architecture. And told me he finally had to leave New Mexico because he was getting so much business. And he moved to California, but then he had to come back because he couldn't stand to be away from it. So it was, there were all kinds of people here, Gasella Lefler was an artist, it was totally different from the rest because she was Hungarian and she lived up in Towson. She was a young mother with children that she had to feed. And then there were people like Bert Phillips and Emil Bistram and some of the Tows Society of Artists that were already well-trained from the Art Institutes and then studied in Europe.

So there was everything here and all of them were very interesting individuals. Some worked together and for example in Tows there was a quartet of them who did ten frescoes in the courthouse and others said they didn't know any other artists because they just worked at home and they didn't have interaction. And that was particularly typical in your Native American and Hispanic artist. But one of the Native American artists said that she used to ride horseback around and go from one arm to the other and didn't realize that there was so much going on. I mean she just kind of took it for granted. But she knew it was a tough time but she said the beauty of it though there was a lot of love in going on. People cared about one another and that was special that kept them going too. That was excellent. Thank you. How's it went?

I don't know. Okay. Why were the murals so important to WPR artists and to New Mexico? And did a lot of these painters, they wanted to do murals because I know like for instance Black and think of several painters that also did murals and so were they asked or made to do murals? Do you know any stories about that? Do you know of any stories of getting cold? Getting to do murals was a very special thing and some of the artists in New Mexico did murals in other sites. I think of Ilamacathy who got to do some in her hometown and got us in Colorado. Peter Hurd did some in Texas. Various ones, burning house, Oscar Burning House did one in Walson Bird, Colorado. Did not do any in New Mexico. For the most part the murals were a different breed of cat in the sense that you submitted

a cartoon or an example of what you would do and you had to compete with others and so you got selected and you generally got a great deal of money to do those. So it was a good thing to get to do a mural. On the other hand a lot of people were not skilled in doing murals so to do something big as big as a mural was a real challenge and not many of them went for that. So talking about the social teams you see depicted in these murals. I mean was this planned, was there a plan behind this? Was there a design behind this or is this something that you felt just sort of bubbled up to the surface? In other words, were these people, were these artists being told to put social thing, okay, talk to me about that.

And some of the research that I've done it was very strong indication that the artists were expected to paint things that were a positive about lifestyles. There was also the importance of portraying the work ethic. So if you look at a lot of the murals around the country, not as much so in New Mexico, you will see work themes. I think of some in Chicago that I know everyone of them are work themes. But there's very few in New Mexico that show off the work per se, except those that are showing off the rural, the history of the rural New Mexico. You're seeing the work of that period and that time and that plus space. So yes, generally the murals, there was a committee, there was a suggestion and then you had to be approved by a committee of the federal level and you had to be committed approved

by a local committee, made up not of just artists or very few artists, you know, the local bureaucrats and the local towns folks. So there were lots more to doing the murals than just doing a painting in your house and submitting it to your supervisor at the end of the month. And come down please, let's go back to this. What about the social themes we see depicted in these? The murals in my research, a lot of them were selected or the subject matter was either to portray the history of that area or to portray something about the culture of that area or to make sure that it was a positive image or to make sure it was a work image. So to give people a sense of pride and a sense of we're going to get back on stream, we're going to have jobs and everything's going to be okay.

So that a lot of the murals around the country, not just in New Mexico, but around the country, to portray work themes. And there were subjects, in many cases, that were, they were told to paint or suggested. And you had to submit your design or cartoon of what you would be doing. And it was either accepted or rejected. There was competition that was very fierce. And then you had to get the local people to be happy with what you were going to do once it had been approved by the federal people. So you ended up with, in some cases, and I have heard of some that what started out and what ended up was totally different to make sure that you pleased everybody. But for the most part, you find most of the murals having a work ethic scene. And in New Mexico, we see a lot of the rural work activities.

The thing that is totally invariance with that is the mural by Lloyd Moylan in Fortalas at Eastern, which is a religious scene. And that was because an individual who provided the money for the paint only did so if he got to choose the subject matter. And he chose a book in the Bible. So that's a totally different one. Okay. When you sat down for a second. The murals were a totally different entity in terms of the artwork that was done because generally those were done on a competitive basis. And the artists were either told what to paint or what the scene should be. And it was approved in competition with others. And they had to also make the people in the local communities happy with what they were doing.

So it was not as simple as just painting and your home. Likewise, it was not something that a lot of people knew how to do. So the subject matter generally was presenting the history or the social fabric of that part of the state, or it also, in the research I've done, suggested strongly portraying the work ethic of our nation. And that was deliberate on the part of the federal government, I think, to make people get back to work and having work and being happy that things were going to get better. Great. Good. That was good. Actually, you know, the other thing is I want to say is, look at me, look at me or look over there. When you look at Randy, it's kind of, kind of, you can look a little weird, can you stop down please? Let's go back to that. How did shape come true? How did shape come true?

Next goes cultural identity. By recording it. There you go. Okay. So tell me that. Do you make complete sense, please? The New Deal art programs were probably instrumental in showing off New Mexico as it was then, and in many respects as it is today, because it recorded it. It recorded what we looked like, who we were, what we did, how we lived. And nothing else was doing that, and it probably just wouldn't have happened otherwise. Great. Good. Let's talk about it. And keep in mind, this is going to be one of the last things we hear in the program. This is the wrap up. I like to say that the New Deal is a good deal. There is still a good deal, because we're still enjoying the fruits of their labors, all

the people who participated. And when you stop and think that there were 423,000 people in the state in 1930, and half of them, five years later, were doing something in relation to the New Deal, one of the programs. We're sitting in a courtyard of a building that was built, 27,000 square feet. We can go from town to town and see public buildings, hospitals, museums, libraries, you name them. The roads, the outhouses, the dams, the artwork, the recording of it, and the writing in the Federal Writers Project, going all over the state and recording what the people were like at that time, what you could see in the state, where you could see it. The music, our music of our times, the people in the North, the Hispanic music, the Native

American music, all of that was done as part of the New Deal, and we still have it today to appreciate. We can walk in these buildings and we can see the artwork that was created. We can enjoy the beauty of the buildings. Most of the outhouses are gone, but the dams, the lakes, the state parks, the national parks, all of these things that were created at a time when it was tough, at a time when you were just getting by. It was a rough time, but in many ways it was a very good time, and it helped so many people and it gave them so much hope for the future, and we're enjoying it today. Their future is our now, and we must preserve it, and we must help our younger generations know about it, and we should take care of the things that were created.

And we're trying to do that, and we hope the public will help us do that, because these are treasures, these are the legacy of our country, but of New Mexico that is important to save. The New Deal is still a good deal, is a favorite phrase I used because it is so true. The New Deal came in at a time when everybody was struggling and having a hard time. They put in their efforts, their energies, their talents, and we have all that today to enjoy still. It gave them hope, and it has given us beauty today, whether it's the buildings, or the roads, or the dams, or the state parks, or the artwork, or the music, whatever it was

that they did then, we have today to enjoy, and we need to take care of it because they are all treasures, they are a legacy to be saved, because it was what we ought to work and what we still are today. Okay, take it from, it is what we were, and what is what we still are today, because you kind of ran two words together, and I can cut those together. You can take them, or you can say the whole thing again, if you'd like, you can take them like your last, your last, it was what we were, and so on. The New Deal was what we were then, and we're still enjoying it, and have what we are today because of that. So what we were, and what we are today, is the New Deal. One more time. That's okay, you've got it, you almost got it, you almost got it. The New Deal is what we were, and what they gave us is what we have today as a legacy, a whole series of treasures that we must save, because it is very special.

The New Deal is still a good deal. Good. I think, I think I'm thinking of making something nervous, working on something personal. The New Deal is still a good deal. I like to use that phrase because I believe it so strongly. The New Deal recorded what we were, and it recorded us in capturing the essence of who we were, not only culturally, but architecturally, artistically, agriculturally, geographically, and even environmentally. It's all there if you look at it, and the buildings that we walk through that we work in, those are all there still for us, to enjoy and to live in, to work in. All of that was what it was, and we're still with that legacy today, and that's why I feel that the New Deal is still a good deal, and we must preserve it, and take care of it,

and appreciate it, and appreciate the hope that it gave people. And maybe that's some hope that we could also use today. Bravo. That was excellent. Good. Now, the New Deal in so far as the art that we see, this wonderful wealth, this legacy of art, because you're talking about it in a much bigger sense, and I like you if you could just narrow that down. I want to talk about the artwork, because that's really what the body, the most of the shows, is about the artwork. So it really is quite something, the legacy of artwork that was left to us by the people who did that artwork as a part of the New Deal. Can you talk to me a little bit about that? Probably the beauty of the artwork that we have in New Mexico, not only because of its quality, and in some cases, there was not quality, but also the quantity is very amazing,

and the variety is also amazing, whether you're talking about the variety and the quality or whether you're talking about the variety and the subject matter, or the medium. There was just about everything used and used well, and therefore I think we have treasures untold all over the country, all over the state, and I hope that as a result of this exposure, people will come to realize what treasures we do have. Okay, great. Good. I think we're done. Thank you.