Illustrated Daily; Tijerina: Through the Eyes of a Tiger

This is the power of the volcano, which is in the northern part of New Mexico. And as much as the devil, as much as the enemy, as much as the oppressor would like to have the world believe that I'm a king tiger, that I'm a militant, that I'm a violent man. He's mistaken. For I am as violent as Jesus Christ. Managing editor, Hal Rhodes.

Hello. This compound is home to Reyes Lopez T. Harina, the volatile land grant leader who throughout the 1960s and early 1970s made himself a national figure in a smoldering historic controversy over the proprietorship of lands throughout much of the American Southwest. The T. Harina story is one of many chapters. He was born near the South Texas village of Fall City in 1926, one of ten children of sharecropping parents. From the beginning religion played an important role in his life, for a period of time beginning in 1944, he was a student at the assembly of God, Bible school, in his letter Texas. Eventually, he was granted a license as a minister of that denomination, a license subsequently revoked for what church leaders described as T. Harina's unorthodox views. Nevertheless, in the ensuing years, T. Harina continued his unorthodox ministry throughout the Southwest as an itinerant, non-denominational preacher.

But the public T. Harina, the T. Harina of national notoriety, found prominence for the first time in the fall of 1966 as the leader of an organization calling itself the federal alliance of land grants, the Alianza. October 1966, 350 Alianza members with T. Harina at the head took arm possession of a national forest campground in northern New Mexico known as Echo Amphitheater. By this action, T. Harina proclaimed the revival of a 19th century land grant community, San Joaquin del Rio de Chama. The siege ended as law enforcement officials disbanded the gathering. June 1967, the following summer, the famous raid on the Rio Ariba County Courthouse in Tierra, Amaria. Five days later, T. Harina was arrested.

January 1970, El T. Gray, the tiger as T. Harina had come to be known by his followers, began a two and a half year stint in federal corrections facilities. This, on convictions stemming from the Echo Amphitheater siege and other federal charges. Subsequently, he spent six months in the New Mexico state prison as a consequence of the Tierra Amaria raid. Today, nearly a decade later, his Alianza divided into what has been described as warring factions. T. Harina thinks of himself not as a political but as a spiritual leader to those whose cause he continues to champion. And his pursuit of what he considers to be justice for the heirs and descendants of the historic land grants remains a prevailing preoccupation. The eyes of the tiger still have fire. But as it's nice of you to visit with us this morning, my pleasure. Tell me the story about that bulletproof door, what's that doing there? Well, this is the security reason to help the family, to keep the family happy.

They're used to sleeping under bulletproof doors and windows in Albuquerque, so here I had to do the same. Do you still worry about security? Well, we have, yes, very much, very much. Listen, just over that first set of mountains to the top of the high mountains over there, we start picking up Forest Service land. It just encircles this whole area, but you contend the Forest Service holds that land under false title. Can you explain that? Yes, first I like to state that I am a United States citizen, but I have never been treated nor my people as citizens of the United States. For 300 years, my ancestors settled Texas, New Mexico and California. Our roots, the pillars of our culture are here, the towns. They treated well, Lucille, which came in as a sovereignty over this area,

guarantees the protection recognition of our property. Our property has never, as towns have never been recognized. Only Indian towns have been recognized in New Mexico, but not one single Spanish-built town, or Mexican-built town has been recognized. As long as the towns are not recognized, we don't feel that we have been recognized as citizens. We have the titles, perfect titles, to satisfy any law, any tribunal, any normal judge. But our titles have never reached one single United States tribunal here in New Mexico. I want to talk about that in a minute. Your analysis is predicated on an interpretation of the historic Spanish land grants. What I've always wanted to ask you, what is your response to those who argue that the King of Spain had no right to grant lands to Spanish settlers, lands which were not his in the first place, but were his only by conquest?

Well, nations abide by international law. The Christian sovereignty in Europe established boundaries, the nations, the empires, to the Pope. At that time, England was part of the Pope. England had its cardinal and voted for the Pope. Islam, the Islamic religion, confronted the Christian religion for centuries and centuries. That political attitude of your established boundaries and international law. Under that law, accepted by England, up to 1832 when England renegaded and broke away from the Christian sovereignty of Europe. Under that law, Chris of Columbus, and Christian Israelite himself, came here. And the best of our authority at that time built the titles to this continent.

The best. Now we hear about adverse possession. Now that really is nonsense. But at that time, it was the best there was. So we can go back and say, well, the Pope didn't have it, because you would have to say it to England. Because the Pope was simply elected like Reagan is elected by all the people. The Pope was the expression and the election and the voting of all the Christian kingdoms. So we cannot overrule those laws, otherwise we would really end up in confusion and nonsense. All right, well, what about that same argument going on into the present? What about the argument that since you can't go back and rewrite history, how now can we go back and rewrite history? In order to satisfy your claims upon the land. What we're saying is legitimate.

The Jews are trying to tell the world to rewrite the history in Palestine. And the United States is supporting our brothers of the Jews. Against many, many acts surrounded by atomic bombs, we might even phase it into the Holocaust to support the old came of the Jews. In this case of San Joaquin, we have not forsaken our lands. We are still living here. We have a perfect title. We not only have the Bible to claim it as title to this land. But we have the people living inside of the area of San Joaquin have a million acres. We have the Constitution of the United States to protect us, but we have never been protected. We have the Treaty of Guadalupe Alu, which is part of the intervention law. But it has been treated as an enemy or as a threat to the United States. The town of San Joaquin is a living political subdivision. I am now the alternative, the mayor of this town.

I was elected. Now, this town has never been dissolved. It takes an act of Congress. It takes a voting of the people to dissolve the town. Once it's established, you can't dissolve it, except the people themselves. Well, there's over 100 towns in New Mexico, including Albuquerque. Albuquerque was 140 years old when the Anglo's and Jews moved into Albuquerque and built their pirate Albuquerque in 1885, 140 years later. There's your example, but San Joaquin has never been substituted by any other town. There's nothing but Christian Israelites living here. So-called Spanish and Mexicans and Chicanos, the Latino, but we are Christian Israelites. By blot, by blot, not by religion. I know. You describe yourself as an Israelite. I suspect a lot of people when they first hear that are somewhat surprised. That's normally the language that you describe your cause.

Of course. Of course. Well, I have dedicated 26 years of my life to the roots of our property rights. That led me to the roots of our lineage of our blot. Then I consulted the rabbis, the Jews here in Mexico. And I began to research into the roots, not the ligh roots of property, but the little roots of our blot. And with the help of Jews and rabbis, I uncover the fact that all the martinis, Garcia, Valdez, Estecarina, Fernandez, all these Spanish surnames are Israelites. Direct the sentence of Israelite families. So, we are Israelite, not by religion, like the Jews who are Jews by religion. We are Israelite by blot, not by religion. There's a great big difference. And at this time, we are very much concerned with Jews engulfing the world in problems under the name of our forefathers.

Israelite. Israelite, because there's three hundred and three thousand and seven hundred and twenty-six years. The House of Judah and the House of Israel have been separated completely. The Jews have never mentioned as a political name, Israel, until 1948. Before that, it was Judah. Judah is coordination because the Jews have changed five times. Historical, five historical changes from one individual's main Judah to the tribe of Judah, to the kingdom of Judah, to the nation of the Jews. And now, the religion of the Jews. And in effect, you're saying the Jews have misappropriated the title of the name Israelite. Oh, yes. Because their political cause, because it is a blood issue. Of course, because Israel is blocked. Jacob was Israel.

And he gave legal rights to Joseph, Ephraim, and Manassas to use the name Israel. And it was agreed upon, and the kingdom of the north of the south, which was the kingdom of Judah, always recognized. And in the census, the census of Israel was separated from the census of Judah. And we are concerned because of the name of Israelite, which the prophets formed major prophets are set in the Bible. In the last days, the House of Judah and the House of Israel are coming together. That's my dream. We will, but we need our brothers who are dividing in four groups. Orthodox Jews reform Jews, Zionists, and agnostics. It's hard to talk to them, because you don't know who. To whom are you talking? But we are hoping and dreaming that we merge. Are you saying the effect that the problems that you perceive in the world today, especially as affects your people? It's a family fight.

It's a family fight. It was a family fight in East Spain and Spain. See, God gave us Palestine. We would leave it, and I would grow it, and then He gave us Spain. We would grow it, and then He gave us America. The twin continent called Holy Land by Christ of Columbus. He gave this land, the name Land of Grace and Holy Land. Because His dream was to use America to save Jerusalem. The dream of Christ of Columbus was to rescue the Holy Sepulchre, Jesus Christ. Now, it is you cannot separate our lands, our property rights from our reward and our lineage. And as much as I hate to say it, our Jewish brothers are very deeply involved in our property problems here in New Mexico. That's a heck of a ham family fight. Oh, yes, we've been fighting our brother for 3,726 years. Ever since Joseph's family will ever get back together? Yes, it's written, and the nuclear age in the nuclear pressure is bringing us back together.

Because at this moment, the Jews are building their last masada. As much as I hate to say it that way, because the masada is a Holocaust, and it's going to come. But whatever is left in Palestine, he's going to merge with us. And we, like Joseph in Egypt, he was sold by Judah, his brother, and done. The father of the Anglos. And later, Joseph in Egypt saved the world. And I am a feeling that the so-called Mexican-American, Latin American, Spanish-speaking people, Spain, who are the true blood Israelites, willing to intervene, will save our own brother, the Jews. All right, let's assume you're right. Let's carry this on out. Assume this family fight that you, as you describe it, amongst these families. It's a family fight. It's once and for all resolve. Does that necessarily mean that the real fight would be between the Israelites and what you call the Anglos?

I don't know. The Anglos, according to many historians and experts in blood and linages, say that they come from done, from the tribe of done, the Anglos. But in Apocalypse is the last book. The tribe done does not appear anymore. So I can tell you whether what's going to happen. So you do not necessarily feel there is an inevitable contest clash between what you call the Israelites and the Anglos. No, no, no, no, no. Because the Anglos eventually will settle for England, eventually. See, they're ruling here because of England. England, according to the Bible, as we see it, is the last power. The last power. The last beast? Yes, the last beast. Chapter 13 of Apocalypse. And the devil that Satan has to use, the biggest race, the biggest people who are in command, to put that race in command to rule as he wishes. And as you know, I don't have to explain the British Empire how it developed.

But then United States is the image of England. The image in the Bible, the image in the language, the image in race, because the race, the ruling race here is Anglo. And the Bible speaks about the last beast and the image. But that's not here nor there. I think the whole thing, according to the prophets, for major prophets, is between the Jews and the Israelites. We are going to merge. Ezekiel 37 explains how we are living like dry bones right now, the Spanish-speaking people, dry bones with no name, no spirit, no nothing. But all of a sudden we will be given a new name, our own name. And the Jews will recognize that that Israel is not turning, much less especially when they admitted with this question in the Constitution. Who is a Jew? He who is born of a Jewish mother, or he who accepts the Jewish religion. But we are Israelites not by religion, but by blood. All right.

Let's bring it back home here a little bit. And to the land grant struggle more generally. You lay claim to the title of all called the mayor of the title. There is actually, I suppose, everybody knows, some debate as to whether or not under state law. Someone keen is a recognized municipality. That's not municipality, but that's not really the point. What I want to know is of all the land grants and your vast interest in land grants, how came it to be that Reyes Lopez T. Harina found San Juan keen to be his home? His focus, I guess. Well, I have to say whether people or the public believes it or not, because it's in my books and my records and my family and my friends. I had a vision. God spoke to me through three angels. And they brought me here. That's God's truth. So you are involved. You're engaged in effect in a divine mission. It's absolutely divine mission. That's why all the bombs that the FBI and the state police have explored in my home

to destroy and scare my family. They have not succeeded. The 30 years in imprisonment that they gave me to quite me down hasn't stopped me. The raping of my wife, my son, 13 years old son, by police who pretty guilty, has not dampened my face and my feelings. And this still doors. We get telephone calls every day, but every month, every week, telling me to move out of this volcano, at least area, because you know that this is a trouble area. And I've been getting the people here together in the towns. That's why the organization is called Leanne Salle Pueblos, Alliance of Towns. Because every one of these towns has a political, a royal charter, a political subdivision. It's an apolitical entity. But you know a town has power. That's why our brothers don't want us to have power.

So Samuel Keen is the beginning of a larger divine mission. Well, the landparent. Yes, but I have always been speaking for all the landgrants, 1715 landgrants. Whereas I'm curious about something. There have been press reports. You are quite familiar with those press reports that it is your intention to see these lands in controversy, eventually seceded from the United States. Your version. Your version. My version now that I have all the secret FBI files on my activities, 5,500 pages. I have learned that I was right. These rumors started by the FBI. They wanted to get the public against me. They wanted to isolate me from the public opinion. And in his media contributed a lot to paint a bad picture, using even Senator Montoya, who, by the way, died in June 50, Jeremiah Dayt.

And that's untrue. Totally untrue. That's why I said, I am a citizen of the United States, but have never been treated as a citizen, because the pillars of our culture, our towns have never been part of the United States. In other words, they have never been recognized. So you've just categorically denied any interest whatsoever in seeing these lands separated from the United States, but only made to be a part of the United States in the proprietorship of the heirs and descendants of the Spanish landgrants settlers. I'm hoping to see these towns like the Palestinian towns at this time in Palestine. Flourishing with the Al-Qaeda was a local authority, being really part of the United States. Our children go to war. Every town there's a war for the United States, and they die, but they're propagated. Their towns are not recognized. We're not asking for something illegal, something unjust. United States cannot pride itself in being the leader of the free world

as long as these towns are treated as if they didn't exist. All right. How do you get them back? You have described yourself no longer as a political leader, but as a spiritual leader in this cause. So by what mechanism do you see these towns being returned to the heirs and descendants of the landgrants settlers? Well, I believe like the Orthodox Jews, Jewish Orthodox. They believe that the whole land is coming to their people, but we don't have to use atomic bomb and violence and destroy the Palestinians and others to fulfill the prophecy. That's the way I believe. I believe like the Orthodox Jews, that God will settle this problem. But we have to record our intentions, our aspirations, our claims, just like the logs,

stipulates that if you don't claim you're right for 10 years, then you're for faith, you're rights. Your way of your rights. And somebody else can claim it through our verse possession. Well, no, I don't want anybody saying that the people of San Joaquin have ceased to function. And while I heard one judge saying, well, we cannot recognize that town because they're not functioning as a political body. Of course, not because they stripped the town of its half a million acres of land, which was the source of revenue to administrate and function the town. And they turned that... Come on, Lance. Turn that around. How do you turn that? Well, we keep on. We keep on and writing letters and claiming and demanding and fighting. And this time we have here one of these big pines that we caught as a symbol of expression that we feel that San Joaquin is already liberated. We can cut timber, green timber, lumber. We can graze our cattle. And the Rangers United States Rangers are no longer bother us.

At least me personally and the close associates of the town of San Joaquin, they are not bothered by the US Forest Service. I think they're sticking to the political policy letter that William Hurst wrote in 1967 and then 1972 after the rate of the Ramaria he wrote that the northern part of New Mexico that is forest land should be treated different than any other part of the United States, forest land in the United States. I asked you about that. The other day you and I were visiting and you mentioned that you and some of your associates in the government of the town of San Joaquin were in the business of purchasing a sawmill. I sawmill. From whence will you, where will you get the lumber? From the town from the area of San Joaquin? All right. Will you have to get permits from the Forest Service to do the town of San Joaquin is each in the permits? All right. So what if the Forest Service as those permits are not recognized? Well, if they borrows their recording, what we content that they are playing terror,

intimidation, trespassing, all the legal tactics to intimidate our people here. Let me ask you this, then. Is it possible that you as mayor of San Joaquin and your associates in the government of San Joaquin could be once again on a collision course with the federal government over these lands? No, I don't think so. They don't want it because they've been bombarding my home and terrorizing my family. They don't want my case in court because my children right now are having homebound education because of the government terror. They don't want to have their look the other way. Oh, yes. I think, and we're also trying to find a million dollars to take our title to the court. We're going to get that middle that middle. Well, we're hoping that someday one of our Israelite brothers or Jewish brothers will come through and make San Joaquin as an example of through justice. Through real justice in the tribunes of the United States because, as of now, not one title. Private title of our towns have reached a United States tribunal,

local tribunal. Never. Hello? And they can't until you have money, is that what you're saying? Of course, because money, then we would, if they throw us out of court in the low level, we would appeal that. And I think on a pill we can win through Amendment 9. Amendment 9 of the Constitution of the United States has never been used. Never has been used by any judge or lawyer. And that Amendment 9 of the Constitution of the United States includes all the rights retained by the people. There's a question I've always wanted to put to you. Assume everything you want to come to pass should come to pass that all of the lands in contention under the land grounds should someday be returned to those whom you claim are its rightful owners, the descendants and the heirs of the original settlers. What would that do? What would that do to the fabric of American social, economic, political life?

Wouldn't it be like taking a loose thread in a yarn and a sweater? Wouldn't it leave the body naked in time? To the contrary, it would consolidate unified the citizenship of the United States. Any Jew, any Anglo, any black could come and be part of the town. Because the town's our political bodies, they could come in. It would consolidate. It would fortify the old spirit of unity, of real Americanism. Well, there's still spirit, and there's in Reyes Lopez, Tina Rina. There's still fire in the eyes of the tiger. I appreciate this conversation enormously. Thanks for spending some time with us. Thank you. And thank you for joining us. I'm Hal Rose. See you later. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Soonings are yours tomorrow